---------------------------------------------------------- JabiruEngine-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 02/26/07: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:39 AM - Re: Sensenich mated to a 3300 (Miguel Maia de Loureiro) 2. 04:43 AM - Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 02/25/07 (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com) 3. 06:24 AM - Re: Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 02/25/07 (Paul Mulwitz) 4. 06:49 AM - Re: Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 02/25/07 (Lynn Matteson) 5. 07:08 AM - Uncrating Engine (sonex293) 6. 07:10 AM - Re: More Propeller Questions (sonex293) 7. 08:46 AM - Re: Uncrating Engine (its4jes@aim.com) 8. 09:22 AM - Re: Sensenich mated to a 3300 (Gilles Thesee) 9. 09:54 AM - Re: Uncrating Engine () 10. 09:57 AM - Re: Uncrating Engine (Lynn Matteson) 11. 01:37 PM - Re: Uncrating Engine (Miguel Maia de Loureiro) 12. 01:53 PM - Re: Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 02/25/07 (Miguel Maia de Loureiro) 13. 02:11 PM - Shielded wires with modern ignition systems (Jeff Davidson) 14. 02:15 PM - Re: Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 02/25/07 (Gilles Thesee) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:39:50 AM PST US From: "Miguel Maia de Loureiro" Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Sensenich mated to a 3300 Hello Gilles, Most Alpi Pioneer 300's flies with short wing versions and ROTAX 912S, as Pioneer Team flies. About prop eficiency, it's not linear. Pitching prop with different values did seam to be linear as well. 160 knots can be done with high energy, that means, pitch down the bird at about -250 ft/min at full. In 3 o 4 seconds you're there. Level out and keep full power. 125 Knots at 70% 'cause larger wings induce more drag and better lift On 2/25/07, Gilles Thesee wrote: > > Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr> > > Miguel Maia de Loureiro a =E9crit : > > I'm flying a Pioneer 300S with Jab3300 and a DUC prop with 64in. Got > > to be careful not to reach VNE at 160 Knots. Takeoff? Less than 300 > > ft! Climbs at 1900ft/min at 80Knots (BRC). Cruises at 125 Knots at > > 70%. 14L/h Unlead 98 oct. > > > > What you say? > Miguel, > > Those numbers are most impressive indeed. 300 ft run, 1900 ft/min. 80 kt > seems a bit high for best rate of climb. Alpi states something closer to > 65 kt. > Do you really mean you're close to 160 kt at WOT ? In that case, 70% > cruise should be closer to 140 kt ? > > Regards, > Gilles Thesee > http://contrails.free.fr > > =========== =========== =========== > > -- Miguel Maia de Loureiro Ultralight Pilot Suport Services Cel.: +351 91 419 21 04 e-Mail: ultralight.flyer@gmail.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:43:46 AM PST US From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 02/25/07 In a message dated 2/26/2007 2:58:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, jabiruengine-list@matronics.com writes: I would be shocked if your Jabiru didn't outperform a Rotax 912S on nearly any airplane. For one thing it has 20 or 30 percent more horse power. Hi Paul, Yes, it would seem that way, wouldn't it? What is really shocking is the folks over on the Yahoo Jabiru forum who claim exactly the opposite. Rotax is the only way, dontchaknow? One fellow in particular claims that anyone building a Europa with a Jabiru will be sorely disappointed when his Rotax 912S powered Europa friends "go right by", meaning that he claims the 912S Europa is faster. False. This fellow also claims that the few extra lbs the Jab has over the Rotax 912S causes the handling to suffer. False again. There are many Europa's flying with engines heavier than the Jab, i.e., Subaru, Continental 0-200, etc, with no ill effects. I've taken this one through many positive aerobatic maneuvers and it is a delight to fly at all areas of the envelope. Not only is the Jab powered Europa faster, it climbs better, and we've measured it to be quieter, too. Fuel consumption is slightly higher than the 912S, but otherwise, having flown both, the Jab/Europa is a superior combo in my opinion. It is certainly several orders of magnitude smoother than the Rotax, too. (and the Jab is considerably cheaper) I really like the lines the longer cowl gives the Europa as well. Gone is the goofy "doghouse" on the bottom cowl that contains the Rotax radiator and the stubby look it gives the stock Europa. Mine looks more like a cross between a Europa and a Lancair. It draws a crowd everywhere I go. I've offered to race any of their 912S powered Europa trigears and or demo the outstanding performance of this combination to them, but so far no takers. It seems that although a few claim to know everything about Jabiru powered Europa's, only one has any direct experience and that one was a completely different firewall forward and prop than mine. The others are merely parroting this one owner's experience. Typical and sad at the same time. I look forward to the release of the Airmaster hub for this prop. My Europa XS is absolutely screaming for constant speed! Regards, John Lawton Dunlap, TN (TN89) N245E


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:27 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 02/25/07 Hi John, I had to drop the Jabiru list at Yahoo. It was just too boring. It seemed to be endless repetition of the same information. I just couldn't stand the hundredth report of how to stop one particular kind of leak or another. I don't know if you follow the Zenith builder's list at Matronics. I made a post there a couple of days ago answering one lister's question about high RPM. I mentioned that auto conversions and other engines which were originally designed for non-aircraft use tended to have PSRUs to make them compatible with propellers. I got one response from a Rotax owner denying his Rotax 912S had snowmobile ancestry. You'd think I suggested his mother wore combat boots. The one lesson from this whole exchange is there is a lot of emotion and biased information when it comes to home builders and their engines. A couple of quick comments on your post: 1. I suspect your Jab powered Europa will outperform any tail dragger as well as any tricycle gear Rotax 912S powered plane. It turns out that RVs with tricycle gear only lose a couple of MPH over tail draggers of the same design. Surprisingly, this is in a 200 mph design. 2. I think the biggest impact of extra horse power in an airplane is in the climb performance. While you might get a little more cruise speed you should get a lot more climb when you add 30 percent more power to a plane. 3. I envy you in your quest for a constant speed Jabiru installation. I can't do that myself since I don't want to get a medical. That means I am limited by the Sport Pilot rule that requires fixed or ground adjustable props. Best regards, Paul Still building, Zodiac XL do not archive At 04:43 AM 2/26/2007, you wrote: >In a message dated 2/26/2007 2:58:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, >jabiruengine-list@matronics.com writes: >I would be shocked if your Jabiru didn't outperform a Rotax 912S on >nearly any airplane. For one thing it has 20 or 30 percent more horse power. > > >Hi Paul, > >Yes, it would seem that way, wouldn't it? What is really shocking is >the folks over on the Yahoo Jabiru forum who claim exactly the >opposite. Rotax is the only way, dontchaknow? One fellow in >particular claims that anyone building a Europa with a Jabiru will >be sorely disappointed when his Rotax 912S powered Europa friends >"go right by", meaning that he claims the 912S Europa is faster. >False. This fellow also claims that the few extra lbs the Jab has >over the Rotax 912S causes the handling to suffer. False again. >There are many Europa's flying with engines heavier than the Jab, >i.e., Subaru, Continental 0-200, etc, with no ill effects. I've >taken this one through many positive aerobatic maneuvers and it is a >delight to fly at all areas of the envelope. Not only is the Jab >powered Europa faster, it climbs better, and we've measured it to be >quieter, too. Fuel consumption is slightly higher than the 912S, but >otherwise, having flown both, the Jab/Europa is a superior combo in >my opinion. It is certainly several orders of magnitude smoother >than the Rotax, too. (and the Jab is considerably cheaper) I really >like the lines the longer cowl gives the Europa as well. Gone is the >goofy "doghouse" on the bottom cowl that contains the Rotax radiator >and the stubby look it gives the stock Europa. Mine looks more like >a cross between a Europa and a Lancair. It draws a crowd everywhere I go. > > I've offered to race any of their 912S powered Europa trigears and > or demo the outstanding performance of this combination to them, > but so far no takers. It seems that although a few claim to know > everything about Jabiru powered Europa's, only one has any direct > experience and that one was a completely different firewall forward > and prop than mine. The others are merely parroting this one > owner's experience. Typical and sad at the same time. > >I look forward to the release of the Airmaster hub for this prop. My >Europa XS is absolutely screaming for constant speed! > >Regards, > >John Lawton >Dunlap, TN (TN89) >N245E > > >---------- >AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about >what'227241x4298082137/aol?redir=http://www.aol.com" >target="_blank">AOL.com. --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:39 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 02/25/07 Thank you Paul, for a voice of sanity regarding which group...Matronics or Yahoo...to read/respond to. I tried to help steer folks over here, and nearly got tarred and feathered. I wish more folks would attend this site. The only problem is that Yahoo is where the traffic is...so far. Pete and Andy have both tried to steer the traffic here to Matronics but no luck yet, so I get 'em both. Lynn Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200 do not archive On Feb 26, 2007, at 9:24 AM, Paul Mulwitz wrote: > Hi John, > > I had to drop the Jabiru list at Yahoo. It was just too boring. > It seemed to be endless repetition of the same information. I just > couldn't stand the hundredth report of how to stop one particular > kind of leak or another. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:14 AM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Uncrating Engine From: "sonex293" Ok, now that we have some traffic here on Matronics, I have another question. When my Jab 3300 engine arrived I took the top off of the crate to inspect for any damage. Jabiru does an excellent job of packaging the engine and no damage was found. I did notice however, that the engine ships upside down. Anyone have any advise on getting the engine un-crated and flipped right side up? I've just borrowed a hydraulic engine hoist to aid in the effort, but I don't want to damage the engine in my efforts to get it on the engine mounts. Thanks Guys! -- Michael Crowder Sonex #293 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97401#97401 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:21 AM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: More Propeller Questions From: "sonex293" Based on some owner feedback, I think I'm going to order a Prince P-Tip prop for my Sonex Jab3300. Climb performance and Prop Noise were the two biggest factors in my decision. Thanks, Michael Crowder Sonex #293 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97402#97402 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:44 AM PST US Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Uncrating Engine From: its4jes@aim.com Get the video from Zenith, its a new video and is really thorogh, covers the uncrating and installing the 3300. Lots of luck J Schultz 601xl builder w/3300 on order -----Original Message----- From: sonex293@nc.rr.com To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com Sent: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 7:08 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Uncrating Engine Ok, now that we have some traffic here on Matronics, I have another question. When my Jab 3300 engine arrived I took the top off of the crate to inspect for any damage. Jabiru does an excellent job of packaging the engine and no damage was found. I did notice however, that the engine ships upside down. Anyone have any advise on getting the engine un-crated and flipped right side up? I've just borrowed a hydraulic engine hoist to aid in the effort, but I don't want to damage the engine in my efforts to get it on the engine mounts. Thanks Guys! -- Michael Crowder Sonex #293 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97401#97401 ________________________________________________________________________ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:34 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Sensenich mated to a 3300 Miguel Maia de Loureiro a crit : > 160 knots can be done with high energy, that means, pitch down the > bird at about -250 ft/min at full. In 3 o 4 seconds you're there. Miguel, Understand. Makes sense. Thanks, Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:54:40 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Uncrating Engine Are you talking about the video from HomeBuiltHelp? The one on Jabiru 3300 installation on Zentih aircraft does cover un-crating. Dred ---- its4jes@aim.com wrote: > Get the video from Zenith, its a new video and is really thorogh, covers the uncrating and installing the 3300. > > Lots of luck > > J Schultz > 601xl builder w/3300 on order > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sonex293@nc.rr.com > To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com > Sent: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 7:08 AM > Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Uncrating Engine > > > Ok, now that we have some traffic here on Matronics, I have another question. > > > When my Jab 3300 engine arrived I took the top off of the crate to inspect for > any damage. Jabiru does an excellent job of packaging the engine and no damage > was found. I did notice however, that the engine ships upside down. Anyone > have any advise on getting the engine un-crated and flipped right side up? I've > just borrowed a hydraulic engine hoist to aid in the effort, but I don't want to > damage the engine in my efforts to get it on the engine mounts. > > Thanks Guys! > > -- > Michael Crowder > Sonex #293 > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97401#97401 > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:12 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Uncrating Engine Mine was shipped right-side up...at least with all the writing on the crate up, and the skids down, and the top of the crate off, I was looking at the top of the engine. Lynn On Feb 26, 2007, at 10:08 AM, sonex293 wrote: > > > Ok, now that we have some traffic here on Matronics, I have > another question. > > When my Jab 3300 engine arrived I took the top off of the crate to > inspect for any damage. Jabiru does an excellent job of packaging > the engine and no damage was found. I did notice however, that the > engine ships upside down. Anyone have any advise on getting the > engine un-crated and flipped right side up? I've just borrowed a > hydraulic engine hoist to aid in the effort, but I don't want to > damage the engine in my efforts to get it on the engine mounts. > > Thanks Guys! > > -- > Michael Crowder > Sonex #293 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97401#97401 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:09 PM PST US From: "Miguel Maia de Loureiro" Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Uncrating Engine >From now on, as in the begining, J3300 will be shiped with oil sump to the upper side and avoid smash of muffler cover. Anyway, you always can turn th e box up side down and remove the bottom of the box, unscrewing it. Other way is to rotate the box with engine front side to the ground, unscrew the inne r wood bars, rotate all engine 180=BA, and flip it to some smooth plate ot something. I'm working with Jabiru Dealer to Portugal and Spain, so we've done it few times with two persons direct to the top of a table, with flang e down. By the way, did you had any problems with hydraulic pushers? Any strage noise, something like "tic tic" like an untuned valve or something? -- Miguel Maia de Loureiro Ultralight Pilot Suport Services Cel.: +351 91 419 21 04 e-Mail: ultralight.flyer@gmail.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:04 PM PST US From: "Miguel Maia de Loureiro" Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 02/25/07 In the lower speed, in the higher speed, in gas and oil consuption, in weight, in less noise, parts prices, TBO hours, and global price... Jabiru is better than ROTAX... and Jabi is a kid that can fly full power constantly 'til stop few hours later; ROTAX is a grand-father who born to cut grass. Have you noticed the noise she makes at starts and shuting down 'cause of the reduction gears? It looks like my mother in law. It's a reliable engine with some caution. Everybody get used to it. Jab is another engine concept, made for fly. Some things i would like to see changed in Jabi, like cylinders AL alloy. -- Miguel Maia de Loureiro Ultralight Pilot Suport Services Cel.: +351 91 419 21 04 e-Mail: ultralight.flyer@gmail.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:42 PM PST US From: Jeff Davidson Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Shielded wires with modern ignition systems The following posting was made to the AeroElectric list, but I thought it was appropriate here on the Jabiru Engine list as well. Jeff Davidson "Time: 07:21:17 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Shielded wires with modern ignition systems . . . At 10:52 PM 2/24/2007 -0800, you wrote: > >The Jabiru mags are not "electronic ignition" as commonly classified. they >do have a transistor switch inside. > >Although shielding the P lead is not necessary, best practice is to run in >shielded lead, ground the shield at mag end to a spare thread hole (on the >alternator statorplate will do). At the mag switch end, the shield is >connected to the gnd terminal of the switch, but not connected to the >airframe here. > >during running, there are over 200v of spikes on these lines. Refer to the >files section on Yahoo Jabiru/engines group, "radio noise" , look for >jab.coil primary - a photo of the trace on the P lead. > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jabiruengines/files/Radio%20noise/ Excellent data sir! Thank you. I'm disappointed to hear about it though . . . you would think that a company so obviously dedicated to the use of modern machining and manufacturing techniques would go a step further with their ignition system. Having said that, I'll have to acknowledge that their decisions may well have been based on a considered trade off between cost and performance . . . and using shielded ignition control leads has been a standard practice in aviation since the first radio went into an airplane perhaps 95 years ago! Okay, based on expanded knowledge offered by our brother Ralph, we know that optimal wiring for the engine is POORLY explained on page 10 of the Jabiru 3300 installation manual. Ralph correctly cites the need for shielded wire and I concur with the techniques he suggested above. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- " ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:15:04 PM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 02/25/07 Miguel Maia de Loureiro a crit : > > In the lower speed, in the higher speed, in gas and oil consuption, in > weight, in less noise, parts prices, TBO hours, and global price... > Jabiru is better than ROTAX... and Jabi is a kid that can fly full > power constantly 'til stop few hours later; ROTAX is a grand-father > who born to cut grass. Have you noticed the noise she makes at starts > and shuting down 'cause of the reduction gears? It looks like my > mother in law. It's a reliable engine with some caution. Everybody get > used to it. Jab is another engine concept, made for fly. Some things i > would like to see changed in Jabi, like cylinders AL alloy. > * > * Miguel, This is just to say there is no perfect engine. Only engines that suit some definite set of requirements, with some degree of proven reliability. Reliability has something to do with the number of million flight hours achieved. There is no reason or no need to criticize the Rotax 91X engines to establish the qualities of the Jabiru line of engines. Better stick with facts. If you need price, lightness, simplicity, fixed pitch, then the Jabiru will be your choice. As for power, the rated continuous power of the 3300 is 107 hp, so no continuous full power, as with any aero engine. Concerning the TBO, it takes many many engines reaching TBO before you can be certain of the advertised numbers. And as you just told, the Jabiru is still a young kid and building flight experience ;-) By the way, what is wrong with the Rotax reduction gear ? Regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message jabiruengine-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/JabiruEngine-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/jabiruengine-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/jabiruengine-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.