---------------------------------------------------------- JabiruEngine-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 08/24/07: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:32 AM - RE : Deposits in Oil Filter (=?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E9rme_Delamare?=) 2. 05:18 AM - RE : Deposits in Oil Filter (=?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E9rme_Delamare?=) 3. 09:52 AM - Jabiru 3300 on ebay (promod69camaro) 4. 10:23 AM - Re: Jabiru 3300 on ebay (Rob Turk) 5. 10:46 AM - Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 08/21/07 (E.T.Gmerek) 6. 03:58 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 on ebay (Peter Harris) 7. 04:09 PM - Re: Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 08/21/07 (Peter Harris) 8. 04:25 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 on ebay (promod69camaro) 9. 04:50 PM - Re: Re: Jabiru 3300 on ebay (Peter Harris) 10. 05:27 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 on ebay (promod69camaro) 11. 05:46 PM - Re: Re: Jabiru 3300 on ebay (Peter Harris) 12. 05:49 PM - Prop speed reduction unit (PSRU) (promod69camaro) 13. 06:05 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 on ebay (promod69camaro) 14. 07:07 PM - Re: DYNAMIC BALANCE (promod69camaro) 15. 07:55 PM - Re: Re: Jabiru 3300 on ebay (Peter Harris) 16. 08:03 PM - Re: Re: DYNAMIC BALANCE (Peter Harris) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:32:01 AM PST US From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E9rme_Delamare?= Subject: RE : JabiruEngine-List: Deposits in Oil Filter De : owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Peter Harris Jerome, The picture looks like white particles on an orange thumb ! Sorry, I=92ll use a white paper next time. All particles on the paper are orange. I did not find orange coloured particles. In my oil filter, it was impossible not to see them. So perhaps it=92s not really =93normal=94 to find them ;o) If this is the first filter scan there may be traces of sealant or something else. The particles are really brilliants. It=92s impossible to confuse with sealant. It would be best to ask the dealer who would have wider experience. Of course I asked my dealer. He has no information to tell me if it=92s a normal wear during break=92 in or not. I will send my oil to analysis, but without a real feedback of Jabiru I can just compare with a precedent analysis. By this way, it=92s just possible to detect when a NEW problem occur. JABIRU SHOULD GIVE US A TYPICAL ANALISYS OF WHAT WE SHOULD FIND IN THE OIL. So, we could diagnostic problems during the first hours of the motors. Are you sure it is not rust? Yes ;o) Peter H Thank you for your feed back Peter. J=E9rme _____ From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of J=E9rme Delamare Sent: Thursday, 23 August 2007 9:11 PM Subject: RE : JabiruEngine-List: Deposits in Oil Filter Peter you=92re right! This morning, I tested again with a magnet the deposits obtained after filtering. Nothing! But=85 When I tested the fuel used to wash the oil filter with the same magnet, I found magnetic particles! (sorry, I didn=92t had my camera this morning) The particles are so small that they pass thru the paper during filtering! Of course, it=92s normal to find this magnetic dust. But is it normal to find those orange particles (size, quantity)? http://jeromedelamare.free.fr/deposit/DSCN3651.JPG Did you, or someone else, observed those orange particles too? Is there a link with those particles and a lubrication problem as observed by Martin? J=E9rme -----Message d'origine----- De : owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Peter Harris Envoy=E9 : jeudi 23 ao=FBt 2007 00:02 =C0 : jabiruengine-list@matronics.com Objet : RE: JabiruEngine-List: Deposits in Oil Filter Jerome as I understand it there will normally be some magnetic particles due to the bedding in of the rings. I found a significant amount in mine at 15hrs. There should be no non magnetic bearing material which is normally white. Peter H _____ From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of J=E9rme Delamare Sent: Wednesday, 22 August 2007 5:38 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Deposits in Oil Filter Jabachat of May 2007 advise to cut the filter and wash it in fuel in order to look for deposit: http://www.jabiru.net.au/Jabachat/Jaba%20Chat%20May%20%202007.pdf I did it after the first 25 hours. My friend Marc cut the filter carefully (no dust). After filtering the fuel: * http://jeromedelamare.free.fr/deposit/DSCN3651.JPG * Test with a magnet : no magnetic parts * Visual inspection: very small orange metal dust (valve guide?) Is it =93normal=94 ? I would like to send the oil for analysis but I have no reference to compare. What and in which quantity should I find in a =93normal=94 analysis? J=E9rme P.S. Jabiru 2200 N=B02092, hydraulic lifter, SB13 before first run, oil cooler, break in with Aeroshell 100, +0,3l of oil during 25 hours of break in, maximum temps never exceed) http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:53 AM PST US From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E9rme_Delamare?= Subject: RE : JabiruEngine-List: Deposits in Oil Filter Thank you Andy, I appreciate that you've answered my question. I just would like to be sure not to find a problem too late as other people on this list. For the moment my engine works fine! J=E9rme -----Message d'origine----- De : owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Andy Silvester Envoy=E9 : jeudi 23 ao=FBt 2007 13:45 =C0 : jabiruengine-list@matronics.com Objet : RE: JabiruEngine-List: Deposits in Oil Filter Jerome, It=92s normal to find very small amounts of both ferrous (magnetic) and non-ferrous material during the break-in phase. The crankshaft and rod-end bearings are probably contributing to the orange dust, as they bed-in. Any ferrous dust is coming from cylinder bores and / or piston rings as the honed surfaces are bedded-in. It=92s good that you have taken the time to check at this stage, but more important to check later in the engine=92s life (say at 300 ' 400 hours). Bearing material being deposited in the filter at that stage indicates wider problems. Andy Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. 39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542 Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246 www.suncoastjabiru.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of J=E9rme Delamare Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 4:38 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Deposits in Oil Filter Jabachat of May 2007 advise to cut the filter and wash it in fuel in order to look for deposit: http://www.jabiru.net.au/Jabachat/Jaba%20Chat%20May%20%202007.pdf I did it after the first 25 hours. My friend Marc cut the filter carefully (no dust). After filtering the fuel: * http://jeromedelamare.free.fr/deposit/DSCN3651.JPG * Test with a magnet : no magnetic parts * Visual inspection: very small orange metal dust (valve guide?) Is it =93normal=94 ? I would like to send the oil for analysis but I have no reference to compare. What and in which quantity should I find in a =93normal=94 analysis? J=E9rme P.S. Jabiru 2200 N=B02092, hydraulic lifter, SB13 before first run, oil cooler, break in with Aeroshell 100, +0,3l of oil during 25 hours of break in, maximum temps never exceed) http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:52:06 AM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 on ebay From: "promod69camaro" Hi everyone. First post here...I think. Yesterday, I bid on and won a Jabiru 3300 on ebay. It is located in New Zealand. I have not heard back from the person who is selling it yet. Do any of you happen to know of this engine? I want to make sure it exist and is not a scam of some sort. I am not implying a scam, I just want to make sure I am not taken advantage of. The reason I ask is because no one bid against me and it ended up a really nice bargain if I can just get my hands on it. Thanks, Shawn -------- Sport Pilot (almost) - Waiting for good weather to take flight exam. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130788#130788 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:54 AM PST US From: "Rob Turk" Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 on ebay Hi Shawn, If things went the way you say then you are one lucky b*stard.. Congratulations! Make sure you get all records with the engine before paying good money. Ask the current owner for the engine history. Watch out for signs of a prop strike. You will want to get the serial number of this engine and post it here for comments. Old engines may require some work to get to good condition again. There are a few known stolen engines as well. Make sure you don't buy one of those or you'll end up having no source for spares... Rob ----- Original Message ----- From: "promod69camaro" Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 6:51 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 on ebay > > > Hi everyone. First post here...I think. Yesterday, I bid on and won a > Jabiru 3300 on ebay. It is located in New Zealand. I have not heard back > from the person who is selling it yet. > Do any of you happen to know of this engine? I want to make sure it exist > and is not a scam of some sort. I am not implying a scam, I just want to > make sure I am not taken advantage of. > The reason I ask is because no one bid against me and it ended up a really > nice bargain if I can just get my hands on it. > Thanks, > Shawn > > -------- > Sport Pilot (almost) - Waiting for good weather to take flight exam. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130788#130788 > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:46:17 AM PST US From: "E.T.Gmerek" Subject: JabiruEngine-List: RE: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 08/21/07 Topic: Static RPM on a Jabiru 3300 with Sensenich Carbon Fiber Adjustable Prop on a 601XL I have an older Jab 3300 with low (50 +/-)hours, solid lifters. I have recently changed out my original Bing Carburetor with a NOS Bing without the 'Economizer' change. The difference has been dramatic, a top RPM increase of 200RPM without any change to Prop setting. My question is this: what should the static RPM be? What is the prop setting used by most on a 601XL with Jab 3300 on a 601XL, and what are the RPMs/indicated airspeeds seen with these settings? Many thanks in advance. Ed Gmerek -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JabiruEngine-List Digest Server Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 11:58 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 08/21/07 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete JabiruEngine-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the JabiruEngine-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Cha pter 07-08-21&Archive=JabiruEngine Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chap ter 07-08-21&Archive=JabiruEngine =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- JabiruEngine-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/21/07: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:34 AM - Re: Re: Key Switch for JAB 3300 (gary aman) 2. 07:16 AM - Re: Re: Key Switch for JAB 3300 (Craig Rairdin) 3. 09:00 AM - Re: Re: Key Switch for JAB 3300 () 4. 09:17 AM - Re: Re: Key Switch for JAB 3300 (Craig Rairdin) 5. 09:48 AM - Re: Oil Pressure Sending unit location (DanM) 6. 10:24 AM - Re: Re: Oil Pressure Sending unit location (Andy Silvester) 7. 11:52 AM - Re: Re: Oil Pressure Sending unit location (Rob Turk) 8. 12:05 PM - Re: Oil Pressure Sending unit location (DanM) 9. 02:47 PM - DYNAMIC BALANCE (Peter Harris) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:09 AM PST US From: gary aman Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Key Switch for JAB 3300 The security the switch gives is its best feature.You can easily wire from the master a second lead to a push button tied to the starter energize terminal. G Aman kolb MK-3 2200 I'm not flying my CH601XL yet but I second that suggestion. I went with an aircraft type key switch "Off, Right, Left, Both, Start" from ACS but if I were doing it again, I would use two toggle switches for the right and left mag and a start button. One obvious benefit is that when you are doing maintenance or daignostics, you can spin the engine with the starter while the mag switches are off. The key won't allow that. Dred ---- wypaul wrote: > > I used the ACS switch from Aircraft Spruce, but if I were doing it today I would just use toggle switches and a push-button. They are lighter, available anywhere and cheaper. > > Paul Spackman > Q-2 3300 Jabiru > > -------- > Paul Spackman > Q-2 Jabiru 3300 > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=129933#129933 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:46 AM PST US From: "Craig Rairdin" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Key Switch for JAB 3300 I had a Baron that didn't require a key but had a rotating key-like switch for the mags and starter. Since it didn't require a key, in order to provide some security there was a mic jack labelled COM3 inline with the starter. You had to insert a mic plug that had its tip and ring shorted to provide a connection for the starter. When you removed this plug the plane wouldn't start. Made it very difficult to steal. :-) Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary aman Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 8:31 AM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Key Switch for JAB 3300 The security the switch gives is its best feature.You can easily wire from the master a second lead to a push button tied to the starter energize terminal. G Aman kolb MK-3 2200 dredmoody@cox.net wrote: ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:00:14 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Key Switch for JAB 3300 Thanks Craig, you have given me a good idea there. My key switch will of course provide the anti-theft protection since without it, the mags can't be turned on. I may use your shorted out 1/4" male mono plug as a more permanent way to activate the starter solenoid with the mags switched off. I didn't like the idea of a permanently installed second starter switch because of the likelihood of activating it accidently. The extra jack labeled "Starter" could not be activated without having the shorted out plug inserted. That's enough safety for me, and as I said, it doesn't have to be camouflaged with a misleading label for security in my case. Thanks again for the idea, Dred ---- Craig Rairdin wrote: > I had a Baron that didn't require a key but had a rotating key-like switch > for the mags and starter. Since it didn't require a key, in order to provide > some security there was a mic jack labelled COM3 inline with the starter. > You had to insert a mic plug that had its tip and ring shorted to provide a > connection for the starter. When you removed this plug the plane wouldn't > start. Made it very difficult to steal. :-) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:17:15 AM PST US From: "Craig Rairdin" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Key Switch for JAB 3300 I put the plug on a key chain that had the door keys on it so it was easy to keep track of. It sure fooled the mechanics when I didn't leave the keys in the airplane but instead handed them to them. I got more than one call (from the same guy each time) telling me they had a problem they couldn't figure out ... The plane wasn't starting no matter what they tried. :-) Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dredmoody@cox.net Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 10:57 AM Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Key Switch for JAB 3300 Thanks Craig, you have given me a good idea there. My key switch will of course provide the anti-theft protection since without it, the mags can't be turned on. I may use your shorted out 1/4" male mono plug as a more permanent way to activate the starter solenoid with the mags switched off. I didn't like the idea of a permanently installed second starter switch because of the likelihood of activating it accidently. The extra jack labeled "Starter" could not be activated without having the shorted out plug inserted. That's enough safety for me, and as I said, it doesn't have to be camouflaged with a misleading label for security in my case. Thanks again for the idea, Dred ---- Craig Rairdin wrote: > I had a Baron that didn't require a key but had a rotating key-like switch > for the mags and starter. Since it didn't require a key, in order to provide > some security there was a mic jack labelled COM3 inline with the starter. > You had to insert a mic plug that had its tip and ring shorted to provide a > connection for the starter. When you removed this plug the plane wouldn't > start. Made it very difficult to steal. :-) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:52 AM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Oil Pressure Sending unit location From: "DanM" So guys, is it ok to use the lower port? -------- Dan Mc Intyre Kitfox Model IV, Jab 2200 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130119#130119 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:24:18 AM PST US From: "Andy Silvester" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Oil Pressure Sending unit location Dan, Yes, it's OK to use the lower port. I've looked at the Drawing Rob refers to, and I think it's wrong. It's ambiguous the way it's drawn, showing the connection through the oil pump output port, and down into the gallery, when in fact the connection should stop at the (upper) pump output port. I'll clarify with Jabiru and will post here if different. However, I've measured the pressure at both points, and the lower port is definitely at a lower pressure, consistent with it being after the cooler and filter. I note that the drawing isn't included in the later manual version for hydraulic lifters! Andy Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. 39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542 Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246 www.suncoastjabiru.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DanM Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 1:48 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Oil Pressure Sending unit location So guys, is it ok to use the lower port? -------- Dan Mc Intyre Kitfox Model IV, Jab 2200 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130119#130119 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:52:13 AM PST US From: "Rob Turk" Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Oil Pressure Sending unit location Andy, Thanks for looking into this. I'm very interested to hear what Jabiru's take is on this. Rob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Silvester" Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 7:11 PM Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Oil Pressure Sending unit location > > > Dan, > > Yes, it's OK to use the lower port. I've looked at the Drawing Rob refers > to, and I think it's wrong. It's ambiguous the way it's drawn, showing the > connection through the oil pump output port, and down into the gallery, > when > in fact the connection should stop at the (upper) pump output port. I'll > clarify with Jabiru and will post here if different. However, I've > measured > the pressure at both points, and the lower port is definitely at a lower > pressure, consistent with it being after the cooler and filter. I note > that > the drawing isn't included in the later manual version for hydraulic > lifters! > > Andy > Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. > 39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542 > Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246 > www.suncoastjabiru.com > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:51 PM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Oil Pressure Sending unit location From: "DanM" Thanks Andy & Rob, I'll watch the forum for any additional info on this subject. -------- Dan Mc Intyre Kitfox Model IV, Jab 2200 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130146#130146 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:47:00 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: JabiruEngine-List: DYNAMIC BALANCE As a result of finding several instances of a low frequency vibration I took the opportunity when we had a week of bad weather to remove the prop , spinner and backing plate and spent three days balancing the set at home. Very boring and tedious adding and taking 2mm screws, nuts and washers I could only do it for an hour at a time. Any draft in the house and the prop would move. When it was perfect and soon after in flight I got a very bad scary low frequency vibration when decelerating and turning left at about 140KTS.Maybe precession triggered it off. Reducing throttle did not immediately help. I got the set up dynamically balanced and it took a 3/4X 7/16" bolt with nut and two washers to correct the dynamic balance. I had been very satisfied with the engine running but it ran smoother than ever before when the first weight was fitted. The difference was very obvious. The prop/spinner and backing plate are now NO WAY in static balance. I have marked the parts and the prop shaft. The job took 4/4 hour and was done in the hangar. It means that it was my engine that was badly out of balance and is now corrected by the dynamic balancing of the prop/backing plate. It means that if flywheel bolts are breaking it could be due to a poorly balanced engine. My 3300 engine was factory rebuilt to zero hours in 2006. Based on my experience I would recommend that all users get a proper dynamic balance, making sure that the backing plate and spinner are in good sound condition at the same time. I understand that Pete and some others have got the equipment to do the job. Peter H 8/22/2007 9:05 AM 8/22/2007 9:05 AM ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:58:31 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 on ebay Shawn have you researched the serial number and the bulletins? There have been a number of improvements to the 3300 since it was first released.Where are you located? Peter H -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of promod69camaro Sent: Saturday, 25 August 2007 2:51 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 on ebay Hi everyone. First post here...I think. Yesterday, I bid on and won a Jabiru 3300 on ebay. It is located in New Zealand. I have not heard back from the person who is selling it yet. Do any of you happen to know of this engine? I want to make sure it exist and is not a scam of some sort. I am not implying a scam, I just want to make sure I am not taken advantage of. The reason I ask is because no one bid against me and it ended up a really nice bargain if I can just get my hands on it. Thanks, Shawn -------- Sport Pilot (almost) - Waiting for good weather to take flight exam. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130788#130788 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:40 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: RE: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 08/21/07 Ed watch out for excessive EGT with the new set up. I conducted a lot of experiments with the Bing/econ carb supplied and found that with the mech pump feed the float needle valve seat (2.25mm) leaks causing excessive rich mixture and loss of performance above 2750RPM but EGT was only 620 deg. I then fitted the smaller seats recommended by Bing for pump feed (1.5mm) and saved 5LPH with marginal but OK EGT but even this seat leaked when the electric boost pump was started, back to 37LPH. I think you need to monitor EGT if departing from the original settings. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of E.T.Gmerek Sent: Saturday, 25 August 2007 3:46 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: RE: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 08/21/07 Topic: Static RPM on a Jabiru 3300 with Sensenich Carbon Fiber Adjustable Prop on a 601XL I have an older Jab 3300 with low (50 +/-)hours, solid lifters. I have recently changed out my original Bing Carburetor with a NOS Bing without the 'Economizer' change. The difference has been dramatic, a top RPM increase of 200RPM without any change to Prop setting. My question is this: what should the static RPM be? What is the prop setting used by most on a 601XL with Jab 3300 on a 601XL, and what are the RPMs/indicated airspeeds seen with these settings? Many thanks in advance. Ed Gmerek -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JabiruEngine-List Digest Server Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 11:58 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 08/21/07 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete JabiruEngine-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the JabiruEngine-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Cha pter 07-08-21&Archive=JabiruEngine Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chap ter 07-08-21&Archive=JabiruEngine =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- JabiruEngine-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/21/07: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:34 AM - Re: Re: Key Switch for JAB 3300 (gary aman) 2. 07:16 AM - Re: Re: Key Switch for JAB 3300 (Craig Rairdin) 3. 09:00 AM - Re: Re: Key Switch for JAB 3300 () 4. 09:17 AM - Re: Re: Key Switch for JAB 3300 (Craig Rairdin) 5. 09:48 AM - Re: Oil Pressure Sending unit location (DanM) 6. 10:24 AM - Re: Re: Oil Pressure Sending unit location (Andy Silvester) 7. 11:52 AM - Re: Re: Oil Pressure Sending unit location (Rob Turk) 8. 12:05 PM - Re: Oil Pressure Sending unit location (DanM) 9. 02:47 PM - DYNAMIC BALANCE (Peter Harris) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:09 AM PST US From: gary aman Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Key Switch for JAB 3300 The security the switch gives is its best feature.You can easily wire from the master a second lead to a push button tied to the starter energize terminal. G Aman kolb MK-3 2200 I'm not flying my CH601XL yet but I second that suggestion. I went with an aircraft type key switch "Off, Right, Left, Both, Start" from ACS but if I were doing it again, I would use two toggle switches for the right and left mag and a start button. One obvious benefit is that when you are doing maintenance or daignostics, you can spin the engine with the starter while the mag switches are off. The key won't allow that. Dred ---- wypaul wrote: > > I used the ACS switch from Aircraft Spruce, but if I were doing it today I would just use toggle switches and a push-button. They are lighter, available anywhere and cheaper. > > Paul Spackman > Q-2 3300 Jabiru > > -------- > Paul Spackman > Q-2 Jabiru 3300 > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=129933#129933 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:46 AM PST US From: "Craig Rairdin" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Key Switch for JAB 3300 I had a Baron that didn't require a key but had a rotating key-like switch for the mags and starter. Since it didn't require a key, in order to provide some security there was a mic jack labelled COM3 inline with the starter. You had to insert a mic plug that had its tip and ring shorted to provide a connection for the starter. When you removed this plug the plane wouldn't start. Made it very difficult to steal. :-) Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary aman Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 8:31 AM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Key Switch for JAB 3300 The security the switch gives is its best feature.You can easily wire from the master a second lead to a push button tied to the starter energize terminal. G Aman kolb MK-3 2200 dredmoody@cox.net wrote: ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:00:14 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Key Switch for JAB 3300 Thanks Craig, you have given me a good idea there. My key switch will of course provide the anti-theft protection since without it, the mags can't be turned on. I may use your shorted out 1/4" male mono plug as a more permanent way to activate the starter solenoid with the mags switched off. I didn't like the idea of a permanently installed second starter switch because of the likelihood of activating it accidently. The extra jack labeled "Starter" could not be activated without having the shorted out plug inserted. That's enough safety for me, and as I said, it doesn't have to be camouflaged with a misleading label for security in my case. Thanks again for the idea, Dred ---- Craig Rairdin wrote: > I had a Baron that didn't require a key but had a rotating key-like switch > for the mags and starter. Since it didn't require a key, in order to provide > some security there was a mic jack labelled COM3 inline with the starter. > You had to insert a mic plug that had its tip and ring shorted to provide a > connection for the starter. When you removed this plug the plane wouldn't > start. Made it very difficult to steal. :-) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:17:15 AM PST US From: "Craig Rairdin" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Key Switch for JAB 3300 I put the plug on a key chain that had the door keys on it so it was easy to keep track of. It sure fooled the mechanics when I didn't leave the keys in the airplane but instead handed them to them. I got more than one call (from the same guy each time) telling me they had a problem they couldn't figure out ... The plane wasn't starting no matter what they tried. :-) Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dredmoody@cox.net Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 10:57 AM Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Key Switch for JAB 3300 Thanks Craig, you have given me a good idea there. My key switch will of course provide the anti-theft protection since without it, the mags can't be turned on. I may use your shorted out 1/4" male mono plug as a more permanent way to activate the starter solenoid with the mags switched off. I didn't like the idea of a permanently installed second starter switch because of the likelihood of activating it accidently. The extra jack labeled "Starter" could not be activated without having the shorted out plug inserted. That's enough safety for me, and as I said, it doesn't have to be camouflaged with a misleading label for security in my case. Thanks again for the idea, Dred ---- Craig Rairdin wrote: > I had a Baron that didn't require a key but had a rotating key-like switch > for the mags and starter. Since it didn't require a key, in order to provide > some security there was a mic jack labelled COM3 inline with the starter. > You had to insert a mic plug that had its tip and ring shorted to provide a > connection for the starter. When you removed this plug the plane wouldn't > start. Made it very difficult to steal. :-) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:52 AM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Oil Pressure Sending unit location From: "DanM" So guys, is it ok to use the lower port? -------- Dan Mc Intyre Kitfox Model IV, Jab 2200 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130119#130119 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:24:18 AM PST US From: "Andy Silvester" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Oil Pressure Sending unit location Dan, Yes, it's OK to use the lower port. I've looked at the Drawing Rob refers to, and I think it's wrong. It's ambiguous the way it's drawn, showing the connection through the oil pump output port, and down into the gallery, when in fact the connection should stop at the (upper) pump output port. I'll clarify with Jabiru and will post here if different. However, I've measured the pressure at both points, and the lower port is definitely at a lower pressure, consistent with it being after the cooler and filter. I note that the drawing isn't included in the later manual version for hydraulic lifters! Andy Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. 39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542 Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246 www.suncoastjabiru.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DanM Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 1:48 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Oil Pressure Sending unit location So guys, is it ok to use the lower port? -------- Dan Mc Intyre Kitfox Model IV, Jab 2200 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130119#130119 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:52:13 AM PST US From: "Rob Turk" Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Oil Pressure Sending unit location Andy, Thanks for looking into this. I'm very interested to hear what Jabiru's take is on this. Rob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Silvester" Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 7:11 PM Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Oil Pressure Sending unit location > > > Dan, > > Yes, it's OK to use the lower port. I've looked at the Drawing Rob refers > to, and I think it's wrong. It's ambiguous the way it's drawn, showing the > connection through the oil pump output port, and down into the gallery, > when > in fact the connection should stop at the (upper) pump output port. I'll > clarify with Jabiru and will post here if different. However, I've > measured > the pressure at both points, and the lower port is definitely at a lower > pressure, consistent with it being after the cooler and filter. I note > that > the drawing isn't included in the later manual version for hydraulic > lifters! > > Andy > Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. > 39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542 > Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246 > www.suncoastjabiru.com > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:51 PM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Oil Pressure Sending unit location From: "DanM" Thanks Andy & Rob, I'll watch the forum for any additional info on this subject. -------- Dan Mc Intyre Kitfox Model IV, Jab 2200 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130146#130146 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:47:00 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: JabiruEngine-List: DYNAMIC BALANCE As a result of finding several instances of a low frequency vibration I took the opportunity when we had a week of bad weather to remove the prop , spinner and backing plate and spent three days balancing the set at home. Very boring and tedious adding and taking 2mm screws, nuts and washers I could only do it for an hour at a time. Any draft in the house and the prop would move. When it was perfect and soon after in flight I got a very bad scary low frequency vibration when decelerating and turning left at about 140KTS.Maybe precession triggered it off. Reducing throttle did not immediately help. I got the set up dynamically balanced and it took a 3/4X 7/16" bolt with nut and two washers to correct the dynamic balance. I had been very satisfied with the engine running but it ran smoother than ever before when the first weight was fitted. The difference was very obvious. The prop/spinner and backing plate are now NO WAY in static balance. I have marked the parts and the prop shaft. The job took 4/4 hour and was done in the hangar. It means that it was my engine that was badly out of balance and is now corrected by the dynamic balancing of the prop/backing plate. It means that if flywheel bolts are breaking it could be due to a poorly balanced engine. My 3300 engine was factory rebuilt to zero hours in 2006. Based on my experience I would recommend that all users get a proper dynamic balance, making sure that the backing plate and spinner are in good sound condition at the same time. I understand that Pete and some others have got the equipment to do the job. Peter H 8/22/2007 9:05 AM 8/22/2007 9:05 AM ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:25:40 PM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Jabiru 3300 on ebay From: "promod69camaro" Thanks for the information guys. I have emailed the seller and requested the serial number. I understand that it was made just prior to the change to hydrolic lifters. They say that they purchased several engines at the same time but did not finish the projects. I am keeping my fingers crossed that they will give me the serial number so I can verify that its not stolen. Thanks Shawn -------- Sport Pilot (almost) - Waiting for good weather to take flight exam. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130863#130863 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:57 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Jabiru 3300 on ebay I have an engine that was factory rebuilt about the same time.Good luck. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of promod69camaro Sent: Saturday, 25 August 2007 9:25 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Jabiru 3300 on ebay Thanks for the information guys. I have emailed the seller and requested the serial number. I understand that it was made just prior to the change to hydrolic lifters. They say that they purchased several engines at the same time but did not finish the projects. I am keeping my fingers crossed that they will give me the serial number so I can verify that its not stolen. Thanks Shawn -------- Sport Pilot (almost) - Waiting for good weather to take flight exam. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130863#130863 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:27:47 PM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Jabiru 3300 on ebay From: "promod69camaro" Peter, Are there any particular things I should know about the 3300's built at that time? Can they be converted to hydraulic lifters with changing the cam and drilling new lifter bores? Shawn -------- Sport Pilot (almost) - Waiting for good weather to take flight exam. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130878#130878 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:02 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Jabiru 3300 on ebay Shawn, Conversion to hydraulic lifters is so major it is not a proposition. If you want full performance at the higher throttle settings look for an alternative to the Bing. I found my engine was unbalanced but corrected with dynamic balancing the prop and added weight to the backing plate. It made a dramatic difference even though the prop was carefully static balanced beforehand.(not now of course so all parts have been marked) I am finishing a TBI fuel injection and have so far gained 160rpm static. I like the engine but wary of the reports of broken flywheel bolts. Based on my experience I think the problem is caused by unbalanced engines and not necessarily unbalanced props. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of promod69camaro Sent: Saturday, 25 August 2007 10:27 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Jabiru 3300 on ebay Peter, Are there any particular things I should know about the 3300's built at that time? Can they be converted to hydraulic lifters with changing the cam and drilling new lifter bores? Shawn -------- Sport Pilot (almost) - Waiting for good weather to take flight exam. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130878#130878 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:49:15 PM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Prop speed reduction unit (PSRU) From: "promod69camaro" I have to ask this because it appears that I just purchased a Jabiru 3300 aircraft engine. This may seem very silly, but I am wondering if anyone has ever put a PRSU on a Jabiru? I am a mechanical engineer and I can't help but think of different way to approach a project. This is my thinking. At 3300 RPM, the propeller is not very efficient. Propellers seem to operate much better around 2200 to 2500 RPM. And at lower RPM, there is less prop noise to deal with. Lets say a person put a 1.5:1 reduction PSRU on the motor, and had a new cam ground for operation to 4000 rpm if necessary, which it probably would be. That would allow the engine to make about 25% more power, and the prop speed would slow into the more efficient speeds. There would be cooling issues, and it would not necessarily have to run at the higher RPM all the time. I am sure there are all kinds of reasons not to do it. For one, its a direct drive aircraft engine and why mess with it. But the fighter planes in WWII all had PSRU's on them, even the radial power plants. The more engine RPM, up to a point, the more power output. To match that with a propeller, it requires a reduction device. Anyway, I am interested in what you guys have to say about this. I am almost sure some has done it. Thanks, Shawn -------- Sport Pilot (almost) - Waiting for good weather to take flight exam. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130882#130882 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:05:58 PM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Jabiru 3300 on ebay From: "promod69camaro" Peter, They do perform a dynamic balance on the crank don't they? With my race car, we balance the entire assembly to 1 gram at 4/5ths max RPM. They drill every counter weight to reduce weight or add mallory metal. Its expensive, but so are these engines. And in a race car, if I blow the motor, I just wait for a tow back to the pits. Can't do that in an airplane. Now I am going to have to open up the motor to make sure its all assembled properly, and that the machine work is adequate. I have a friend in Rowlett Texas who takes billet aluminum blocks and machines them into custom engine blocks. They are crazy strong and super good looking. I use one on my race engine. They are used in top fuel dragsters and top alcohol engines also. Top fuel makes over 8000 hp with these blocks. Anyway, I should ask him to sit down and take a look at the Jabiru and see if there are any suggestions he may have for reducing vibration. He has the equipment if he is not to busy. Shawn -------- Sport Pilot (almost) - Waiting for good weather to take flight exam. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130886#130886 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:52 PM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: DYNAMIC BALANCE From: "promod69camaro" When you sent the engine in to be rebuilt, did they change out the pistons and/or connecting rods? They may be using a different weight piston if so. It sounds to me like each crank needs to by dynamically balanced with the pistons and rods that are going into it. When I build a race engine, we match the pistons up according to weight. Each one is weighed to find the lightest one. We then remove material from all the others until they are all the same weight. That way, the recipicating mass is the same through out the engine. The machinest says it is easier to get a good rotating assembly balance this way and the engines seem to live longer. I sure hope that your engine is the exception and not the rule. These engines are to expensive for basic machining to not be performed. Shawn -------- Sport Pilot (almost) - Waiting for good weather to take flight exam. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130898#130898 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:49 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Jabiru 3300 on ebay Shawn I don't know what work is done by the factory to balance the engine if any but I am guessing it is made symmetrical. Remember that it is designed for comparatively low RPM. I can only report on my own personal experience. My prop backing plate is now working as a harmonic balancer and the engine is smooth as. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of promod69camaro Sent: Saturday, 25 August 2007 11:05 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Jabiru 3300 on ebay Peter, They do perform a dynamic balance on the crank don't they? With my race car, we balance the entire assembly to 1 gram at 4/5ths max RPM. They drill every counter weight to reduce weight or add mallory metal. Its expensive, but so are these engines. And in a race car, if I blow the motor, I just wait for a tow back to the pits. Can't do that in an airplane. Now I am going to have to open up the motor to make sure its all assembled properly, and that the machine work is adequate. I have a friend in Rowlett Texas who takes billet aluminum blocks and machines them into custom engine blocks. They are crazy strong and super good looking. I use one on my race engine. They are used in top fuel dragsters and top alcohol engines also. Top fuel makes over 8000 hp with these blocks. Anyway, I should ask him to sit down and take a look at the Jabiru and see if there are any suggestions he may have for reducing vibration. He has the equipment if he is not to busy. Shawn -------- Sport Pilot (almost) - Waiting for good weather to take flight exam. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130886#130886 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:10 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: DYNAMIC BALANCE Shawn I bought the engine rebuilt from the factory and have no details how the job was done. It was sold to me with warranty as a zero hours engine. When an intermittent problem low frequency vibration was not solved with careful static prop balance I got a dynamic balance and noticed an immediate and major improvement in running the engine . It is like a different engine. It took a 3/4X1/4" bolt,nut and washer about 4" from centre on the backing plate to get it right. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of promod69camaro Sent: Saturday, 25 August 2007 12:07 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: DYNAMIC BALANCE When you sent the engine in to be rebuilt, did they change out the pistons and/or connecting rods? They may be using a different weight piston if so. It sounds to me like each crank needs to by dynamically balanced with the pistons and rods that are going into it. When I build a race engine, we match the pistons up according to weight. Each one is weighed to find the lightest one. We then remove material from all the others until they are all the same weight. That way, the recipicating mass is the same through out the engine. The machinest says it is easier to get a good rotating assembly balance this way and the engines seem to live longer. I sure hope that your engine is the exception and not the rule. These engines are to expensive for basic machining to not be performed. Shawn -------- Sport Pilot (almost) - Waiting for good weather to take flight exam. 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