---------------------------------------------------------- JabiruEngine-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/12/07: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:12 AM - Re: RE : Cylinder cooling issues - Guidance from Jabiru (Rob Turk) 2. 02:35 AM - Re: Cylinder cooling issues - Guidance from Jabiru (pat ladd) 3. 02:53 AM - Re: Cylinder cooling issues - Guidance from Jabiru (Rob Turk) 4. 03:55 AM - Re: Re: Coils (Kayberg@aol.com) 5. 06:38 AM - Re: RE : Cylinder cooling issues - Guidance from Jabiru (Andy Silvester) 6. 07:44 AM - Re: Re: Coils (Jim Crowder) 7. 07:49 AM - Re: Coils (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com) 8. 08:48 AM - Re: Re: Coils (Kayberg@aol.com) 9. 09:36 AM - Re: Coils (Andy Silvester) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:12:45 AM PST US From: "Rob Turk" Subject: Re: RE : JabiruEngine-List: Cylinder cooling issues - Guidance from Jabiru 6" pressure differential.. Hmmm, I'm starting to understand why Jabiru included a vacuum pump pad in the design.. Rob ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Crowder To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 6:42 AM Subject: RE: RE : JabiruEngine-List: Cylinder cooling issues - Guidance from Jabiru Andy Silvester Suncoast Sportplanes Inc. writes: "To avoid overheating problems of the Jabiru engines in non Jabiru installations, it is vitally important that all installations provide a greater that 6 inch of water, air pressure differential to provide enough cooling for the Jabiru engine. Attached is a diagram of the tube placements to measure this and photos. We are in the process of having this included in the engine manual as a condition of warranty. Attached is a diagram and photos that demonstrate how to perform this test." On slow moving aircraft this may be very difficult to achieve. I will do my best on my Kitfox 5, but for those of us who have already purchased our engines and paid for them, this is an unfair position for Jabiru to take, and a warranty amended after purchase is likely un-enforceable. The warranty at the time of purchase is a part of our contract and cannot be amended unilaterally. Let new buyers beware!! I want to be happy and will do my best to achieve the 6 inch of water differential, but this does not feel good. Jim Crowder -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of J=E9rme Delamare Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 1:58 PM To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com Subject: RE : JabiruEngine-List: Cylinder cooling issues - Guidance from Jabiru Greater than 6 inch of water ! Sure ? In my manual :" The required pressure drop across the cylinders at 1.3 Vs in take off configuration is 4.3 cm (1.7") water gauge, minimum." To obtain a dynamic pressure of 6 inch of water you need an Indicated Air Speed of 180 km/h (100 kts). J=E9rme ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:35:59 AM PST US From: "pat ladd" Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Cylinder cooling issues - Guidance from Jabiru By asking for optimal pressure drops, Jabiru is protecting itself against warranty claims related to overheating.>> Hi All, this is my first posting to this list and it is obvious from lurking that you guys are much more technically knowledgeable than I. On a scale of 1 to 10 put me in as zero. I fly a Kolb Extra with a Jabiru pusher, in the UK. I have had little experience as I managed to start the engine with the throttle wide open after only a few hours flying . I hit a barn, and a parked car. The rebuild has just been completed and I am waiting for Permission to Test Fly at the moment. I queried the rumours of Jabi`s overheating with the dealer when I ordered the plane and he assured me that it was a thing of the past and more up to date engines were OK. My engine must now be around 2 years old. Any comments? Cheers Pat ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:53:10 AM PST US From: "Rob Turk" Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Cylinder cooling issues - Guidance from Jabiru Pat, Jabiru has made several changes to the engine to improve cooling (more and finer fins, new airducts), but a bad installation 8 years ago will continue to be a bad installation today if nothing is done about it. As more Jabiru's find their way to the skies, more experience will be built up and many common mistakes early on will be known and corrected today. Rob ----- Original Message ----- From: "pat ladd" Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:35 AM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Cylinder cooling issues - Guidance from Jabiru > > > By asking for optimal pressure drops, Jabiru is protecting itself against > warranty claims related to overheating.>> > > Hi All, > this is my first posting to this list and it is obvious from lurking that > you guys are much more technically knowledgeable than I. On a scale of 1 > to 10 put me in as zero. > I fly a Kolb Extra with a Jabiru pusher, in the UK. I have had little > experience as I managed to start the engine with the throttle wide open > after only a few hours flying . I hit a barn, and a parked car. The > rebuild has just been completed and I am waiting for Permission to Test > Fly at the moment. > > I queried the rumours of Jabi`s overheating with the dealer when I ordered > the plane and he assured me that it was a thing of the past and more up to > date engines were OK. My engine must now be around 2 years old. Any > comments? > > Cheers > > Pat ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:49 AM PST US From: Kayberg@aol.com Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Coils In a message dated 9/12/2007 12:27:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jimlc@att.net writes: "Jabiru haven't recognized any subsequent failures and refer to the following facts: 1. Engines are dyno-tested at the factory and leave in fully working order. 2. Coils break-down in over heating conditions so they recommend in their manuals for additional air cooling to the coils from the ram-air ducts." And if they fail with the additional cooling? So much for honoring their warranty! I'm not impressed. Jim Crowder As one who is in the warrantee service business in an unrelated product field, I want to stick up for the manufacturer. I frequently see installations that are well outside the factory perameters but the owners are quick to blame the manufacturer. That is also happening in the Experimental Aircraft w orld. Airflow through a Jab engine is the key issue, from my experience. Do it right one time and life is good. Use the recomended prop, shrouds, cooling tubes, oil cooler and cowling exits and be rewarded. If you dont, I suggest you be prepared to spend your own money on new parts. People like to criticise manufacturers like Rotax and Jabiru when there are problems, as tho the engines come with perpetual care. But much of the complaining is undeserved, IMHO. The Jab importers bend over backwards to deal with problems, it seems to me. Doug ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:04 AM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: RE : Cylinder cooling issues - Guidance from Jabiru From: "Andy Silvester" I'm not sure if further explanation is needed on this latest cooling advice but here goes anyway: 1. Jabiru engines get installed and operated in a huge variety of aircraft. The only installations Jabiru can report and advise confidently on are (of course) in their own aircraft. The efficiency of the cooling for the heads is as much about the cowling design (extract, etc) as it is about the ram-air ducts provided. What they've now done, through factory testing of different installations, is come up with a set of measures for cowled-in installations which can be replicated in the field and objective comparisons made with the advice. The cylinder head cooling WILL be correct if the pressure differentials they specify are met. This gets us past all the problems with different CHT measuring methods, calibration of sensors, hot/cold junctions, etc. etc. If the pressure differential is right, so will be the head temps. 2. The guidance is intended for those who are trying to reduce CHTs, either to be within limits, or to bring the temps. down further from a normal-to-high situation. My experience has shown that CHTs on all cylinders should stay below 300F, 150C in cruise, for good head life (to 1000 hours). Brief excursions above these temps are OK when in the climb. Yes, the published upper cruise limit is higher, but we know that heads (and compressions) last longer with the lower CHTs. Temperatures of 220F, 105C should be achievable with the 6" pressure differential mentioned. Cowling design, oil cooler location and relative airflow, propeller choice, ambient air temps, type of fuel used, fuel / air ratio and speed of aircraft all affect CHTs. As a dealer I can only advise based on experience; Jabiru publish what they will and make the 'official' rules. 3. Warranty won't, and can't be retrospectively changed! The guidance is published now for advice, but Jabiru have said that IN FUTURE the cooling requirements and specification will be included as part of warranty. Quite honestly, how we dealers are to ultimately prove or disprove this in warranty claims is beyond me, but we'll see..... 4. So why is head temperature so connected to life of parts? We get feedback that "Lycoming and Continental' have higher limits and don't have problems (yeah, right). What you have in a Jabiru engine is a fine balance between power and weight. To get the low weight there is obviously less material in heads (etc.) and so heat build-up can get to the structure quicker than in heads weighing twice as much or more (and they do). Also remember that CHTs are measured only at one point on the head, and some parts of the head are much hotter (around the exhaust port). When a Jabiru head is exposed to high temperatures which soak through the entire structure, the aluminum can distort, both losing the bolt-torque and hence head-to-cylinder seal, and also valve seats can start to move, be drawn into the head material or simply twist around and lose valve seal. Let's be clear - if the head temperature is kept within limits, and the lower the better, it will last the course. Andy Silvester Suncoast Sportplanes Inc -------- www.suncoastjabiru.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=134039#134039 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:41 AM PST US From: "Jim Crowder" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Coils Doug wrote: People like to criticize manufacturers like Rotax and Jabiru when there are problems, as tho the engines come with perpetual care. But much of the complaining is undeserved, IMHO. The Jab importers bend over backwards to deal with problems, it seems to me." I have no complaint personally, but selling a product with a warranty and then saying we tested it when produced and since it will fail if not properly installed, then we consider any failure to be the fault of the installation, is to say we do not warrant it. Parts can fail for other reasons. In practice we may just need to show that we did install it properly, or if we are lucky we may not ever need to test their interpretation. However, what they are saying is not impressive. For my part, I am forewarned and I plan to take extensive pictures of my installation before even starting it up and of course I will take great pains to do it right following to the best of my ability factory instructions, as I am now doing. Jim Crowder -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kayberg@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:55 AM To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Coils " In a message dated 9/12/2007 12:27:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jimlc@att.net writes: "Jabiru haven't recognized any subsequent failures and refer to the following facts: 1. Engines are dyno-tested at the factory and leave in fully working order. 2. Coils break-down in over heating conditions so they recommend in their manuals for additional air cooling to the coils from the ram-air ducts." And if they fail with the additional cooling? So much for honoring their warranty! I'm not impressed. Jim Crowder As one who is in the warrantee service business in an unrelated product field, I want to stick up for the manufacturer. I frequently see installations that are well outside the factory perameters but the owners are quick to blame the manufacturer. That is also happening in the Experimental Aircraft world. Airflow through a Jab engine is the key issue, from my experience. Do it right one time and life is good. Use the recomended prop, shrouds, cooling tubes, oil cooler and cowling exits and be rewarded. If you dont, I suggest you be prepared to spend your own money on new parts. People like to criticise manufacturers like Rotax and Jabiru when there are problems, as tho the engines come with perpetual care. But much of the complaining is undeserved, IMHO. The Jab importers bend over backwards to deal with problems, it seems to me. Doug ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- See what's new a_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:05 AM PST US From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Coils In a message dated 9/12/2007 2:58:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jabiruengine-list@matronics.com writes: OK, that's the 'Jabiru' line. Hi Andy and all, Just so everybody will know, I'm not in any way trying to slam you or Suncoast. My previous comments were directed at Jabiru. Your support has been excellent. Jabiru, on the other hand, leaves a bit to be desired. Thanks for your generous offer of the $200 credit, but I won't be taking you up on that because I don't think it's right for you to have to dig into your own pocket to make up for a shortcoming of the factory. This issue is between me and Jabiru, but I don't hold out much hope that they will make good on it and that will certainly factor in to whether or not I purchase another Jabiru in the future should the need arise. I am surprised that Jabiru refuses to warranty my coils for two reasons. One, the left coil was failed at the first start up. It was way out of spec on the secondary side when measured with an ohm meter (Fluke 87) per Jabiru instructions. This clearly wasn't my fault since I'd never run the engine before the discovery of the failed coil. If this coil failed due to heat, it failed when the factory did the initial run-in. My engine was installed per Jabiru guidelines and the cooling tubes were installed from the head intake ducts to the coils per Jabiru instructions. I have not noted any discoloration, checking or any other signs that the coils were overheated. Secondly, the second coil failed at about 30 hours. While this one could have indeed failed due to engine heat, I don't think that is the case because nothing has changed in my set up and the coils currently installed on the engine have been there since 0 hours and 30 hours respectively. If there was a heat issue in my setup these other coils would have also probably failed. One has 107+ hours on it and the other has 77+ hours on it and the engine runs like a top. When I got the replacement coils, two from you and the other from Pete, (I keep a spare on the shelf now just in case) they were considerably different from the coils that came on the engine. The new coils were not only larger, but had a different orientation of the coil wire where it exits the body of the coil. They did appear to be from the same vendor, though. It seems clear to me that Jabiru knew they had a problem with the original, smaller coils and that prompted the change to the new, larger coil. I don't understand their Rotaxian attitude, though. All I'm asking is for them to make good on the warranty agreement they provided when I purchased my engine. FWIW, I pretty much have my cooling issues under control on all but the hottest days, and then I only see elevated temps in CHT's in climb on the left side. I am sourcing a manometer and I'll do some measuring and see where I'm at. My guess is I have adequate cooling flow, per Jabiru parameters already. The real question is if I do indeed have adequate cooling flow, and I'm able to prove it, will Jabiru make good on the failed coils? I won't be a holdin' my breath on that one..... Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) Europa N245E - Flying - 107 hours ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:48:55 AM PST US From: Kayberg@aol.com Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Coils In a message dated 9/12/2007 10:45:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jimlc@att.net writes: I have no complaint personally, but selling a product with a warranty and then saying we tested it when produced and since it will fail if not properly installed, then we consider any failure to be the fault of the installation, is to say we do not warrant it. Parts can fail for other reasons. In practice we may just need to show that we did install it properly, or if we are lucky we may not ever need to test their interpretation. However, what they are saying is not impressive. For my part, I am forewarned and I plan to take extensive pictures of my installation before even starting it up and of course I will take great pains to do it right following to the best of my ability factory instructions, as I am now doing. I think some distinction needs to be made between individual part defects and damage caused by installation. In the case of the coils, if it can be demonstrated that high temps fail the coils and at correct temps they last for ever, then there is some probablility that if TWO coils fail immediatly on the same engine, and the failure rate on that particular batch was very low; then one should conclude that installation had something to do with it; ie high temps. It would then be up to the owner to justify how his installation DID NOT cause high temps. But another problem has to do with the age of the engine. Homebuilders often buy their engines too early in the build and aging on the shelf causes damage. That is why the warrantees to not start when the engine is first run. That and other situations can cause failures that ARE NOT the factory's problem. I would just add that a good relationship with the dealer is essential for good warrantee support. Some folks will try to save a few bucks by internet shopping but lose the advantage of a friendly dealer. I know all the Jab dealers in the USA and they are extremely helpful. They all seem to go the extra mile to help a customer who asks for help. Just an observation from experience: People in the service business cannot resist someone who ASKS for their help , perhaps even begs. But customers who try to dump all their emotions on a dealer and "DEMAND SATISFACTION" can find themselves in a real pickle. Wether a passive-aggressive response or a "pissed aggressive" response from a dealer, the result is biting the hand that feeds you. I think it is more important to have a dealer on your side than to do exactly what a manual says. Manuals simply cannot contain all necessary wisdom. Just a thought or two. doug koenigsberg ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:36:01 AM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Coils From: "Andy Silvester" All you guys are making sensible and valid points - thanks. I re-read my original response about John's two coil failures and perhaps should clarify. There really is no 'Jabiru Policy' about what, and what isn't agreed as a warranty replacement. Yes, there is a warranty document which says that parts and labor are warranted - and I think Jabiru's warranty which DOES start from first-run and not the date of purchase is fairer than most. 'Obvious' mechanical failures and breakages are of course warranted where there can be no question about the way the failure occurred. However, people do overheat coils, which fail and they claim under warranty. Similarly with overheating heads. Jabiru have seen all these before and tend to be ready with a less than favorable answer, so for us dealers, the onus is with us to go against the flow and 'prove' the operator or installation wasn't at fault. In John's case I obviously didn't do a good enough job providing the proof, because of course his were genuine warranty issues. It was a while ago and I can't remember specifically, but I probably caught the Jabiru factory guy on an off day or just after he's rejected someone else's claim for free replacements - who knows? What I'm saying is that ultimately, the decision on the replacement of parts which could have been mis-used is both subjective and somewhat inconsistent. People are involved in the decision process and so it's fallible. I'm not defending or criticising necessarily - it's just the way it is. I'd be interested to learn how any small company (Jabiru isn't Lycoming) can do it differently and stay in business. They obviously can't honor every claim which is presented, because a good number are due to abuse of the engine through poor installation. John's claim is reasonable so I'll have another go at Jabiru with the hope of success this time. Andy Silvester Suncoast Sportplanes Inc. -------- www.suncoastjabiru.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=134065#134065 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message jabiruengine-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/JabiruEngine-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/jabiruengine-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/jabiruengine-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.