---------------------------------------------------------- JabiruEngine-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 09/29/07: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:49 AM - Re: Jabiru OP sensor replacement (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com) 2. 07:26 AM - Re: dynamic balance (N1BZRich@aol.com) 3. 07:28 AM - Re: dynamic balance (N1BZRich@aol.com) 4. 08:06 AM - Re: Oil pressure problem (Rob Turk) 5. 05:24 PM - Re: dynamic balance (Peter Harris) 6. 05:26 PM - Re: dynamic balance (Peter Harris) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:07 AM PST US From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Jabiru OP sensor replacement In a message dated 9/29/2007 2:59:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jabiruengine-list@matronics.com writes: If memory serves, you were offered a replacement also...through the dealer; which is how warrantees are handled. If I have you confused with someone else, please let me apologize in advance. And then Nick said: "I have found jabiru to be very excellent in their warrenty claims. No hassles or problems here getting any items taken care of. I beleive maybe you are going about your claim in the wrong fashion." Hi Doug and Nick Nope Doug, you've got me confused with somebody else. And, Nick, I've handled my warranty situation EXACTLY as instructed by the dealer from whom I purchased my engine. The failure to comply with the warranty apparently is on the factory end, not this end or the dealer's end, or so I'm told, anyway. I was not offered a warranty replacement OP sensor directly, despite my insistence that it should be covered under the warranty. I was told that I had to purchase the replacement VDO sensor. I was instructed to return the old sensor to the dealer and the old sensor would be sent back to Jabiru and a credit would be issued from the factory and forwarded to me. In fact, I just reviewed the e-mail correspondences between myself and the dealer regarding this issue that were sent a year ago so that I would accurately repeat what happened here for your review. So, this is an accurate representation of what occurred. My original OP sensor was sent back to the dealer close to a over a year and a half ago, but no warranty credit was ever issued by Jabiru. I did indeed purchase the replacement VDO OP sensor I installed at about 30 hours and I was told at the time it would indeed be covered under the factory warranty, but it might take a while for the factory to make good on it. To date, that warranty replacement has not happened. Ditto the two replacement coils I've purchased that, IMO, should have also been covered by warranty since one was failed at first start up and the other failed at about 30 hours. I would think that a year and a half is more than ample time to comply with a warranty issue, don't you? Both replacement coils I received were considerably different from what came on my engine. I suspect that the original coils were probably robbed off a 2200, since they closely resemble what I've seen installed on the 2200. I believe the original coils were simply too small and could not stand the current flow needed to supply fire to 6 plugs instead of 4. I hold an MSEE from Georgia Tech and as such I'm pretty familiar with all things electrical and how they work. Coil sizing is a pretty simple affair in the grand scheme of things and it doesn't take my level of education to realize what the problem was with the original coils, especially since they both failed on the secondary side. The replacement coils, purchased from two different Jab dealers, were identical to each other and considerably larger than the originals. The two replacment coils have a much different orientation than the originals. This seems to indicate that either Jabiru knew they had a problem with the smaller coils and switched to the larger ones after my engine was shipped, or the original coils sent on the engine were not the correct size. The new and old coils were probably from the same vendor, though. Interestingly, one of the coils I received from a dealer, and not the dealer I bought my engine from, was used, but I was charged full retail as if it were new. The used coil worked, but this is as ethically questionable as Jabiru's failure to honor their warranty. I took a series of pictures of both the original coils and the replacement coils, side by side, to illustrate the difference between the two and sent the pictures via e-mail to my dealer on the same day I returned the coils for replacement. That didn't help one iota. FWIW, I'm in no way slamming the dealer where I purchased my engine. His support outside these issues has been excellent. From what I have been told by the dealer from whom I purchased my engine, the problem with the warranty replacement on both the coils and the OP sensor is with the factory, not the dealer. Apparently, Jabiru leaves warranty issues to the dealer's to be handled "out of pocket". My dealer offered me a $200 credit out of his pocket. Nice gesture, but that hardly covers half of what I spent on 2 coils and an OP sensor, plus shipping. I also don't think it's right that the dealer should have to pay for a warranty replacement out of his pocket for a factory problem. Jabiru might well think this is an acceptable business practice, but, it is not what their warranty states. Having been a dealer for various ultralight manufacturers over the years, and a Rotax dealer, too, I view this practice as a wee bit less than ethical. The real question is what would Jabiru do if this were a really serious warranty issue requiring expensive replacement parts like a head or a crankshaft? I think we've all seen the answer to that question vividly illustrated here. If they won't replace something as rudimentary as a coil or an OP sensor under warranty, they sure as hell aren't going to replace a crank if it fails in the warranty period. I really, really like the 3300, especially when compared to the Rotax 912s. The Jabiru factory support, however, leaves a lot to be desired, even when you compare them to Rotax factory support, which also leaves a lot to be desired. FYI, I also own an AMT 200S Super Ximango that has a certified 912S installed and I do direct comparisons all the time between the two. The 3300 is a superior engine to the 912s in a lot of respects, but the way these warranty issues have been handled, or not handled, will certainly affect any decision I might make in the future in terms of purchasing another engine from Jabiru for a future project should the need arise. I certainly bring it up as a topic of discussion anytime anybody asks me what I think about Jabiru engines, too. I spent $15,000+ on this engine and I expected, at the very least, basic support from the factory, but that clearly ain't gonna happen. Based on the correspondence I've received from other Jab owners, I'm not alone in this expectation or in the end result of warranty claims. The cost of the coils and the OP sensor certainly aren't going to break me and this issue really isn't about money at this point. It's about ethical business practice. All I'm saying is don't expect Jabiru to honor their warranty because, at least in my case, they've refused to honor the most basic and least expensive warranty claim they are likley to see with a 3300. My experience has been that they choose to not honor their warranty, despite how squeaky the wheel gets, but rather ignore their customer and leave it to the dealer to handle as he sees fit. If ya'll have had good luck dealing with them I'm happy for you. I have not had any success gettting them to honor their warranty despite doing exactly as I was instructed. (and I know how to squeak pretty loud if I'm provoked) In other words, plainly stated, let the buyer beware. That Jabiru factory warranty you received with your engine isn't what you think it is and I've got overwhelming proof that Jabiru does not honor their warranty on even the most basic issues, like coils and OP sensors. Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) Europa N245E - Flying ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:36 AM PST US From: N1BZRich@aol.com Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: dynamic balance Peter, Good information. Do you have the equipment to do the dynamic balance or did you have it commercially done? So far, any prop/spinner vibration that I have felt on several different 3300 powered airplanes has turned out to be the fiberglass spinner or back plate that was way out of balance. I feel sure that aluminum spinners will turn out to be much better balanced from the source. Blue Skies, Buz ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:18 AM PST US From: N1BZRich@aol.com Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: dynamic balance Peter, I forgot to ask what prop you are using? Buz ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:06 AM PST US From: "Rob Turk" Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Oil pressure problem Thanks Ronald, and Gilles as well. I'll do a few more tests based on your input. Rob ----- Original Message ----- From: Ronald Deutch To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 1:47 PM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Oil pressure problem Light Plane Maintenance -- Sept 2007 describes a similar issue for a different engine however it may be useful. I quote the parts that are of interest: ....It only takes a slight change in oil temperature to cause a significant change in pressure....(talks about using washers under relief valve spring to get some added pressure) ....Before you do anything else, a check of the drop across the engine is warranted. First warm up the engine to operating temperature. Connect a pressure gauge to any output fitting on the back of the oil pump or some place close to the pump --.. can also be a fitting in the oil galley..... Then attach a (another) pressure gauge to the left front galley on the case (continues about how but may not be applicable to Jabiru engine) ..... Check the oil pressure on both gauges with the oil hot and record reading at idle and in cruise configeration. The drop across the engine should be around 8 to 15 PSI. If the drop is around 20 PSI or more, then internal clearances -- bearings, cam followers, etc are affecting the pressure. If the drop is fine, then your loss in pressure is caused by a relief valve that is relieving oil pressure too much, or work needs to be done to the baffling and oil cooler to lower the temperature a bit. Continues but not relevant. Unquote. that gives answers, not web links. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:27 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: dynamic balance Buz, It was the local maintenance shop that did the job. We did it in the hangar as they wanted no wind factor and ran it up to 2700RPM static with the tail wheel tied to a post. The equipment cost over $6000. A vibration sensor was bolted to the crank case near centre top and a laser read rpm and position from a reflector on the prop. A very accurate electronic scale was used to weigh the washers which were intitially attached to a spinner attach screw. Finally we computed a larger equivalent weight to attach out of sight on the backing plate. iWe ran it up three times with minor adjustments to the weight but from the first weight attachment the engine ran remarkably smoother. I think Pete has got the equipment, not sure where you both are. I am in Queensland OZ. Regards Peter _____ From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N1BZRich@aol.com Sent: Sunday, 30 September 2007 12:26 AM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: dynamic balance Peter, Good information. Do you have the equipment to do the dynamic balance or did you have it commercially done? So far, any prop/spinner vibration that I have felt on several different 3300 powered airplanes has turned out to be the fiberglass spinner or back plate that was way out of balance. I feel sure that aluminum spinners will turn out to be much better balanced from the source. Blue Skies, Buz _____ See what's new atblank">Make AOL Your Homepage. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:26:59 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: dynamic balance Buz It is made by Ed Sterba, a 55X 72" pitch. Peter _____ From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N1BZRich@aol.com Sent: Sunday, 30 September 2007 12:26 AM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: dynamic balance Peter, I forgot to ask what prop you are using? Buz _____ See what's new atblank">Make AOL Your Homepage. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message jabiruengine-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/JabiruEngine-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/jabiruengine-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/jabiruengine-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.