Today's Message Index:
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1. 02:38 AM - Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 13 Msgs - 10/03/07 (Jeff Small)
2. 04:39 AM - Re: Increase oil pressure using washers? (Rob Turk)
3. 05:35 AM - Re: Increase oil pressure using washers? (Gilles Thesee)
4. 10:08 AM - Re: Jabiru Coils (nick otterback)
5. 02:08 PM - Propeller selection (Rob Turk)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 13 Msgs - 10/03/07 |
John, you good old "high time" pilot,
You know, you're really a bore. We know where you stand and we've seen
the service you could have received. Thank goodness my e-mail has a
'delete sender' setting.
Have a wonderful day yourself, John.
jeff small HDS/3300
>I'm not going away and I'm not going to be quiet until this issue is
>resolved, Doug. Get used to it or find the delete button on your
keyboard. I
>sincerely hope you don't have to go through what I and others have had
to go through
>with Jabiru and their fake warranty and I really, really hope that you
don't
>ever have to experience an ignition failure in flight. It's a truly
>terrifying experience, even for a high time pilot like myself.
>Have a wonderful day!
>Regards,
>John Lawton
>Whitwell, TN (TN89)
>Europa N245E - Flying
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Increase oil pressure using washers? |
Hi Gilles,
That explains. I have a solid lifter engine, so I never bothered to look at
the manuals for newer engines. I downloaded the hydrolic lifter parts
manuals just now, and the pictures are waaay better than those for my solid
lifter engine. Thanks!
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gilles Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Increase oil pressure using washers?
> <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
> http://www.usjabiru.com/Service%20Bulletin.htm
> Click on 2200 Hydraulic Lifter Parts Manual
>
>
> Best regards,
> --
> Gilles
> http://contrails.free.fr
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Increase oil pressure using washers? |
Rob Turk a crit :
> That explains. I have a solid lifter engine, so I never bothered to
> look at the manuals for newer engines. I downloaded the hydrolic
> lifter parts manuals just now, and the pictures are waaay better than
> those for my solid lifter engine. Thanks!
Rob,
Yes, the newer manuals show nice 3D drawings, but the older manuals,
(such as my 11 year old Maintenance manual) show them all the same,
albeit in 2D only.
What matters is you got your answer, and most important, we now all know
where to get up-to-date books ;-)
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru Coils |
Your pictures have not been looked at nor requested because pete and a few of our
pilots are out on the road at airshows all week.
Nick
Kayberg@aol.com wrote:
I am going to post a response to both John and Craig as well as the listserve,
so I have put them both together for a reference.
The point the quote below that preceeds Craig's post is trying to make (using
sarcasm) is that people want more than either the money or the part. Viewing
the issue from my perspective, the only thing John can rationally get is either
the parts or the money. I understand that he wants an explanation, but in
my opinion, the real case is that he is dissatisfied with the explanation he received.
For example, Pete explained that the three Jabiru dealers in the USA
ARE the face of Jabiru. John wants "the factory" to explain to him what the
dealers either cannot or have not. That is not going to happen for a whole
set of pragmatic reasons.
In my mind, there is no question that John is past rational and well into emotional.
(I would not say he is irrational) He has demanded satisfaction and
not received it. Correct me if I am wrong, but I doubt if the Jabiru warrantee
guarantees satisfaction. Yes, he is satisfied with the product, but not satisfied
with certain events that preceeded. His plane is flying well now and the
Jabiru engine is performing as advertised, which he has pointed out.
I am simply raising two questions. 1) What is it (money or parts) that Jabiru
should do to make good on their warrantee? 2) If they did that (again it would
be their dealers doing that) would he be satisfied?
I would just comment that money or parts can be obtained. Engines can be fixed.
Feelings, impressions, and emotional responses are much more difficult.
My suspicions are that no matter WHAT Jabiru does, John will not feel like they
honored their warrantee. In short, perhaps there is no remedy possible THAT
WILL SATISFY JOHN. I under stand that. I have felt the same way myself on
occasion.
I have no doubt that out of more than 1,000 Jabiru engines sold in the USA that
at least 1% of the owners would be unhappy about something. Stating the obvious,
the engine design is a low-production volume, experimental, continously
improving machine. IN MY OPINION, the expectations of some people will not
be realized under those circumstances.
I do appreciate John's point of view and his explanations. I just want to offer
some perspective and critique of them. Your milage may vary.
Doug Koenigsberg
" If we give you the part free, have the salesman shot, have the manager
castrated and give you a million dollars, would you be happy?" No.
This attitude is typical in companies that have no customer service ethic at
all. They view all complaints as irrational. There ARE irrational complaints (I've
both made them and received them) but they're in the minority. When a business
focusses on the small number of irrational complaints to the point where
it hangs a sign making it sound like *all* complaints are irrational, then you
can bet they're not going to listen to you when you have a legitimate complaint.
If I saw this sign hanging in any company with which I did business, I'd take
my money somewhere else.
John's making a great point with his warranty experience and his complaint is
far from irrational. In fact his demands are surprisingly reasonable and his
attitude demonstrates a depth of character and wisdom that is rare in our litigious
society.
Craig
In a message dated 10/3/2007 11:44:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
writes:
Hell, at this point, I'd be somewhat satisfied if somebody from the factory
would at least take the time to comment on it. I've inquired at least 6 times
over the past year and a half to my dealer and have never, ever gotten a response
as to the disposition of the parts I sent back. Do you not find that troubling,
Doug?
Between growing up around my father's business, running two very successful engineering
businesses of my own for 18 years, plus being half owner of a fairly
sizable ultralight dealership in Atlanta for nine years in the 80's, I also
know what customer service, honoring warranties and doing the right thing is all
about. It's commonly referred to as "ethical business practice," Doug. Ethical
business practice does not include ignoring your customers legitimate warranty
claims in hopes that they will just go away.
At this point, I'm all but certain that Jabiru isn't going to make good on my
claim. I came to that realization over six months ago. I also realize that it's
clear that none of their dealers are going to be able to rectify this situation
with the factory, essentially because, from my vantage point, it appears
all too clear that Jabiru doesn't give a damn about their customers once the check
clears. I also don't expect the dealers to dig into their pocket and pay
for these failed parts, but apparently Jabiru does. I'm over being mad about it.
I'm even beyond being frustrated about it anymore. Pull up any of my previous
posts on the Matronics Europa forum regarding this engine and you will see
I've been very complimentary about this engine. You should also know that I'm
one of, if not the first person in the world to make a Jabiru engine work and
work successfully in a Europa. Maybe you weren't aware of that, Doug.
My purpose in posting my story is to let everybody know who and what they are
dealing with if they choose to do business with these folks. My story is not
an isolated event, Doug, despite what Pete says his experience has been. It has
become quite apparent to me that many others have had far worse situations go
ignored by Jabiru as my e-mail in-box has been filled daily with numerous unsolicited
messages from other Jab owners all over the world relating their tales
of woe since I originally posted my story here. And, this is the sleepy Jab
forum, Doug. I can only imagine what kind of response I'd get if I had posted
my story on the Yahoo Jabiru engine forum or on the Yahoo Sonex list which are
both far more active lists. Maybe I'll try that and see what happens. There
are a hell of a lot more folks out there who have been treated in the same manner
as I have than I was ever aware of prior to purchasing my engine and had I
known that beforehand, I'm sure I would have gone
elsewhere. It's a bit late for that now, though.
One thing really does trouble me, though, Doug. It's responses from people like
you who try to make this mess out to be my fault and just want me to tuck my
tail and go away quietly. I've gotten a small number of messages, both on the
forum and in my e-mail, that, much like your message, lend support to Jabiru
in regard to the way I've and others have been treated by them. Folks like you
want me to just write off $400+ worth of failed parts that should have been
fully covered by my warranty. Instead, you just want me to go away quietly. I
suppose it's an easy thing for you to dismiss when it's not parts on your own
engine that failed in the warranty period; parts that were apparently known to
have a high failure rate and were ultimately replaced by the factory on other
engines. I guess it's no issue to you that the failure of these known bad parts
could have killed me when they failed, Doug. I certainly wouldn't want to
see you have an ignition failure on your engine in
flight like I did. I was fortunate that I had at least one of the "good" coils
installed at the time and was able to limp home to safety. I shudder to think
what might have happened if I'd have had total ignition failure. Maybe this is
something you should consider for a few moments before you try to shoot the
messenger, my friend.
Pete offered to help get my coils and my OP sensor replaced under warranty IF
I send them back to him. For that gesture, I thank him kindly. However, I cannot
send these parts to him because I no longer have them. These parts have already
been sent back to Jabiru, via Suncoast, for warranty replacement A YEAR
AND A HALF AGO! I suppose you missed that part in my previous post? I also took
responsibility for not asking the girl at Jabiru USA what price they wanted
for the used coil the sent me on May 15, 2006. I suppose you missed that part,
too, huh, Doug?
After being a Rotax dealer for a number of years and having sold several hundred
engines in the ultralight heydays, I know I would have never sold a part that
had been run a significant amount of time on another customer's engine and
then charged for it as if it were new. We would have loaned the customer the
used part and swapped it out for a new one when the new parts arrived, but that's
just the way we treated our customers and we did that sort of thing many times
over the years to keep folks flying and happy. Perhaps you think that is
okay to charge full retail for used parts since it's my engine we're talking about
here. Somehow, I'd think you'd sing a different tune if it were you were
charged full retail for what was clearly a well used part for your own engine.
Then again, maybe not.
So, "what more can Jabiru do?" How about honoring their warranty, even at this
late date, Doug? I'm only asking them to honor the warranty that Jabiru themselves
wrote and included with my engine. That warranty includes ignition coils
and OP sensors, doesn't it? I sure don't see anything in my warranty that excludes
these parts. Is that too much to ask, Doug? Is that too difficult for you
to understand? It's a simple concept, really. If they're not going to honor
their warranty, why do they even bother to include it with the engine? Why don't
they respond to MULTIPLE DIRECT INQUIRIES about my parts, Doug? I did EXACTLY
what I was asked to do with the failed parts and apparently Jabiru won't even
take the time to respond to their own dealer, Doug. I mean, really, we're
only talking about that little $15,000 fan up front that keeps us alive when we
fly, right?
If you read his last post carefully, Doug, according to what Pete said, Jabiru
apparently had a problem with a certain type of coil used on 3300's about the
same time my engine, #756, was manufactured, circa 2003-2004, and, apparently,
they have indeed replaced coils from that era under warranty. That was the
first time I'd heard anything remotely like that from a Jab representative. Those
coils, according to Pete, were "Leading GX" coils. Now, I don't know whether
or not I had those coils installed on my engine originally because no one has
been able to tell me exactly how to identify them. I do know that the replacements
I purchased were considerably different from what came on the engine.
I can't find any documentation on the Jabiru factory website that says anything
about these coils, either, Doug. Perhaps you know where I could find this info
and maybe could point me to it? Maybe there's an answer I've missed out there
somewhere? You seem to know what is going on
here. How about enlightening me? If I'm wrong, I'll scream my apologies from the
rafters loud enough for all to hear. I'm an adult and I make mistakes all the
time and I admit that I'm not perfect. As I've said, I really, really like
my engine. I just don't care for the unprofessional way I've been treated by the
factory.
I do have two very nice side by side pictures of my old and new coils and those
pictures clearly show that these two coils are not the same part, not even
close. Would you like to see these pictures and make a determination for yourself,
Doug? I sent the pictures of my coils to Suncoast and he didn't respond to
my specific inquiry about the coils or subsequent follow up's beyond saying
he'd sent the parts back to the factory and he'd not heard anything from them.
Andy never once made any mention of "Leading GX" coils and their replacement.
I also e-mailed these pictures directly to the factory on THREE separate occasions
and got absolutely no response. I offered to send the pictures of my coils
to Pete a couple of days ago right here on this forum, but so far he hasn't
indicated he wants to see them. I didn't buy my engine from Pete, so I don't
expect him to "bend over backwards" to clean up this mess, although I do appreciate
his offer of assistance.
I don't know whether or not had the "Leading GX" coils installed on my engine
because I can't get an answer one way or the other out of anybody. I would hope
that a serious engine manufacturer would keep records on what specific outside
vendor parts are installed on each specific engine and as such it should be
easy to determine what was origially installed. I know for certain that Rotax
keeps records like that. In case you aren't aware, most serious manufacturers,
engine and otherwise, do keep such records, Doug. Wouldn't it be nice if somebody
in the know associated with Jabiru would, at the very least, take a 20
seconds to look at my coil pictures and tell me whether or not they were the
suspect "Leading GX" coils? That seems to be a reasonable request, doesn't it,
Doug? I don't know, maybe I'm barking at the moon here, and apparently, according
to you I am, but it sure sounds like a reasonable request to me! If my original
coils were the "Leading GX" coils with
known issues, why were they not promptly replaced when my dealer sent them back
to the factory, Doug? Ditto the OP sensor? Why can't my dealer get answers from
the factory to these questions, Doug? Pete said in his last post that he's
been able to get several of those bad OP sensors replaced under warranty. Why
was mine REPEATEDLY ignored? Inconsistency is not a virtue, Doug, especially
when it comes to aircraft engines! It should have been a no-brainer, don't you
think? All of this could have been avoided if Jabiru would just cough up an answer
the warranty claim I've made. Instead they've not only choosen to ignore
one of their major dealers, in fact their OEM distrubutor for the USA, and also
one of their otherwise satisfied customers, too. Why won't anybody even bother
to take the time to look at the pictures and offer a comment, Doug, if the
customer service they offer is so damned good? As I said before, let the buyer
beware!
You know, Doug, if you don't like what I'm posting here, you ought to know you
don't have to read it. That's what delete buttons are for. Some folks are indeed
interested, though, Doug, particularly the ones who are, at this very moment,
deciding what engine to buy or not buy for their project. The volume of messages
in my in-box regarding this issue supports the notion that many folks
are indeed interested in this topic and many have had far worse problems under
warranty that have gone unresolved by Jabiru, Simply because you are not interested
and as such seek to launch an ad hominem attack against me in a weak effort
toss this problem back into my lap and make it look like my fault that the
factory refuses honor my warranty says a lot about you and your character, partner.
I'm not going away and I'm not going to be quiet until this issue is resolved,
Doug. Get used to it or find the delete button on your keyboard. I sincerely
hope you don't have to go through what I and others have had to go through with
Jabiru and their fake warranty and I really, really hope that you don't ever
have to experience an ignition failure in flight. It's a truly terrifying experience,
even for a high time pilot like myself.
Have a wonderful day!
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
Europa N245E - Flying
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Propeller selection |
OK, so I started reading the newer manuals from Jabiru. They really
confuse me, as many things I have learned in the past about my engine is
different now?!?
First is head temperatures. I was always told to keep them under 175
Celsius peak, and unde 150 continuous. Now I read in the latest
installation manual on page 7 that continuous 180 Celsius is OK, and 200
peak is not a problem? Huh?
Next is propeller choise. I was told that Jabiru engines couldn't swing
a large prop and most of us use 58" - 64" props. Now the manual tells me
on page 28 that you can use a 70" propeller? And even with that prop you
should be able to run 3300 rpm? Doesn't that make the tips break the
sound barrier?
This really makes me wonder, can I trust these manuals at all? I now
have three different revisions, and they all show me different
information. How do I find out what the 'real truth' is???
Rob
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