Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:19 AM - Re: Propeller selection (jetboy)
2. 02:03 AM - Re: Re: Propeller selection (Gilles Thesee)
3. 02:06 AM - Re: Re: Propeller selection (Rob Turk)
4. 05:30 AM - Oh, damn, it's those boring coils again (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
5. 06:15 AM - Re: Oh, damn, it's those boring coils again (Rob Turk)
6. 06:51 AM - Re: Oh, damn, it's those boring coils again (Kayberg@aol.com)
7. 07:35 AM - Re: Re: Propeller selection (Ron Shannon)
8. 07:55 AM - Re: Oh, damn, it's those boring coils again (japhillipsga@aol.com)
9. 08:36 AM - Re: Oh, damn, it's those boring coils again (Andy Silvester)
10. 02:22 PM - Re: Re: Propeller selection (Peter Harris)
11. 05:23 PM - Re: Re: Propeller selection (John Loram)
12. 09:42 PM - Oil change (n282rs@satx.rr.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Propeller selection |
Rob,
The temperature limits changed with the revisions to the cyl. heads, so the new
manual does not correctly reflect the conditions for an old engine.
Your observation is correct, a lot is confusing, better to trust your own judgement
and dealer support. Bear in mind the manual is not written in English, just
printed that way, and may require some translation to get the job done.
Props for the 2200 are listed in the installation manual as up to 68" with pitch
of between 30" and 48" and a moment of inertia spec that needs to be met.
Glad you brought the subject up, I just ordered a 64' x 30" prop without realising
that to do my first choice 64" x 28" would have been out of limits. I decided
on the 64" x 30" because someone has already done that prop on same airframe
with good results.
Dont worry about exceeding any mach numbers on prop or airframe I assure you that
wont happen any time soon. Its rare to get more than 3100 rpm for most of us.
I think the 70" prop is only for the 8 cyl. engines which run a bit lower rpm.
Ralph
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138245#138245
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| Subject: | Re: Propeller selection |
jetboy a crit :
> Bear in mind the manual is not written in English
Ralph,
I would have sworn it was English !
What do you mean ?
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Propeller selection |
Hi Ralph,
Thanks for the comments. Your observations about the old vs. new heads makes
sense, and I'll happily use the lower temperatures as a guideline. I just
find it confusing that a few days ago I was looking for some information on
oil pressure and I was referred to newer manuals that do apply to my engine
serial number, and now I find information in those newer manuals that yet
again contradicts what I thought I knew.
Unfortunately my Jabiru dealer (LimAir in Belgium) seems to have vanished
from the face of the earth, and I have never received any pro-active support
from them. So I will have to rely on the common knowledge in this group.
As for the prop, you mention no-one getting more than 3100 rpm. Well, I had
my prop specifically calculated and manufactured to get 3300 rpm, and in
doing so I got a 63" x 44" prop. If I would have known that lower peak rpm
is common then I would have opted for a larger, more efficient prop. I may
have to do that anyway, as I now get exactly 3300 rpm static, and I can't go
WOT on cruise without going over 3300 rpm.
As for semi-English manuals, I don't care. I'm Dutch so English is only a
second language to me anyway. Anything that vaguely resembles English will
do fine ;-)
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "jetboy" <sanson.r@xtra.co.nz>
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 10:18 AM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Propeller selection
>
> Rob,
> The temperature limits changed with the revisions to the cyl. heads, so
> the new manual does not correctly reflect the conditions for an old
> engine.
>
> Your observation is correct, a lot is confusing, better to trust your own
> judgement and dealer support. Bear in mind the manual is not written in
> English, just printed that way, and may require some translation to get
> the job done.
>
> Props for the 2200 are listed in the installation manual as up to 68" with
> pitch of between 30" and 48" and a moment of inertia spec that needs to be
> met.
>
> Glad you brought the subject up, I just ordered a 64' x 30" prop without
> realising that to do my first choice 64" x 28" would have been out of
> limits. I decided on the 64" x 30" because someone has already done that
> prop on same airframe with good results.
> Dont worry about exceeding any mach numbers on prop or airframe I assure
> you that wont happen any time soon. Its rare to get more than 3100 rpm for
> most of us.
> I think the 70" prop is only for the 8 cyl. engines which run a bit lower
> rpm.
>
> Ralph
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Oh, damn, it's those boring coils again |
In a message dated 10/5/2007 2:59:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jabiruengine-list@matronics.com writes:
John, you good old "high time" pilot,
You know, you're really a bore. We know where you stand and we've seen
the service you could have received. Thank goodness my e-mail has a
'delete sender' setting.
Have a wonderful day yourself, John.
jeff small HDS/3300
Hello Jeff,
I'm sorry you find Jabiru's failure to honor their warranty and in flight
ignition failures such a bore, man! But, I am glad you are familiar with your
delete key, but you might want to read the next paragraph before you use it,
though.
At the risk of boring you further, Jeff, I've had a response from the coil
pictures I posted on the Yahoo Jabiru forum and at least one person has chimed
in to say that my engine appears to have had the "Leading GX" coils. So,
even though the serial number on my engine is 220 higher than the last engine
that, according to Jabiru factory documentation, was supposed to be shipped
with these known bad coils, mine was indeed shipped from the factory "Leading
GX" ignition coils that were known to have high failure rates. This is so
boring!
Maybe your engine has them too, Jeff? Did you ever consider that? Might want
to take a peek before the next time you go fly, man! Unless, of course, you
are into "arboreal adventures".
You have yourself a wonderful day too, Jeff!
Once again, if anyone reading this is considering a Jabiru, let the buyer
beware! It is now apparent that Jabiru knowingly shipped my engine with coils
that they knew were bad, 220 engines after they were supposed to have
discontinued use of the "Leading GX" coils. This is also after they apparently
told
some French and UK Jab owners about it and told them to discontinue use of
these coils immediately 220 engines later, folks. Stunning. I suppose this is
why Jabiru has been so quiet about my warranty claim.
Oh well, I guess I should be happy that I was just able to "live" with
it.......right Jeff?
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
Europa N245E - Flying
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Oh, damn, it's those boring coils again |
John,
I have not been able to find the pictures you took of the coils you have,
but if you had "Leading GX" coils you would have known for sure. Those coils
have this exact text stamped on the coils themselves. Check out Gille's
website for his story on coils, or look at this picture:
http://contrails.free.fr/images/moy_DSCF2368.png
There's no way you would be able to miss this if you were looking for a
clue, so I'm quite confident that yours are not Leading GX.
Rob
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Oh, damn, it's those boring coils again |
John,
I offer three comments.
First, you may wish to use another literary tool to communicate your point
other than sarcasm. As some one said, "subtlety is wasted on the stupid!"
Some people find it a trudge to sift through sarcasm. We know you are angry
about things, no need to try to hide it.
Second, some of us know from experience that the failure of one side of a
Jab dual ignition is a non-event. Of course if BOTH ignitions decide to fail
at the same time, the silence is a great cause for concern! What I have
noticed is that people who suffer some kind of ignition problem, like the
distributor rotor failures, which leads to a rough engine, are loath to shut off
the
offending half of the system. As we all know, if you happen to forget to
switch both mags on, you cannot tell it on a Jabiru. But they wont shut either
side of the ignition off to see if they can get a smooth engine.
Third, while " Leading GX" coils may have suffered a high failure rate, I
doubt if it was 100%. My service experience with electrical components,
including several types of coils, is that if they are going to fail, they
typically do it early in their service life. If I had the coils, I would certainly
consider changing them one at a time, but if I had more than 100 hours on
my engine, I would be in no hurry.
FWIW
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 10/5/2007 8:31:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
TELEDYNMCS@aol.com writes:
Hello Jeff,
I'm sorry you find Jabiru's failure to honor their warranty and in flight
ignition failures such a bore, man! But, I am glad you are familiar with your
delete key, but you might want to read the next paragraph before you use it,
though.
At the risk of boring you further, Jeff, I've had a response from the coil
pictures I posted on the Yahoo Jabiru forum and at least one person has chimed
in to say that my engine appears to have had the "Leading GX" coils. So,
even though the serial number on my engine is 220 higher than the last engine
that, according to Jabiru factory documentation, was supposed to be shipped
with these known bad coils, mine was indeed shipped from the factory "Leading
GX" ignition coils that were known to have high failure rates. This is so
boring!
Maybe your engine has them too, Jeff? Did you ever consider that? Might want
to take a peek before the next time you go fly, man! Unless, of course, you
are into "arboreal adventures".
You have yourself a wonderful day too, Jeff!
Once again, if anyone reading this is considering a Jabiru, let the buyer
beware! It is now apparent that Jabiru knowingly shipped my engine with coils
that they knew were bad, 220 engines after they were supposed to have
discontinued use of the "Leading GX" coils. This is also after they apparently
told
some French and UK Jab owners about it and told them to discontinue use of
these coils immediately 220 engines later, folks. Stunning. I suppose this is
why Jabiru has been so quiet about my warranty claim.
Oh well, I guess I should be happy that I was just able to "live" with
it.......right Jeff?
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
Europa N245E - Flying
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Propeller selection |
FWIW, at Oshkosh '06 I spoke with the Legend Aircraft folks about their
prop selection for the 3300 option on their Cub LSA. They had tested
several props, and concluded that a Sensenich 68x38 was the best. They
were very positive about its performance on that relatively draggy
airframe, even though they knew I wasn't a sales prospect for them. A
68x38 is the largest prop I had ever heard of being used on the 3300.
I then consulted the Sensenich technical folks at some length, and they
confirmed that the W68CK38G composite-covered wood prop would be the
best prop for my 3300-powered Murphy Rebel. Haven't tested or flown it
yet, but I'll let you know how it turns out.
To understand the issues surrounding the interaction of prop selection,
engine (carb), and airframe, I would highly recommend the DVD "Jabiru
Engine Installation Seminar" available from http://homebuilthelp.com.
It's a condensed version of the seminar presented by US Jabiru. There
are two segments in which Pete Krotje explains the Bing carb in detail,
particularly how different prop loading interacts with the Bing constant
depression mechanism in different phases of flight. Although I had
studied the prop loading/engine/airframe & tip speed issues quite a bit,
it wasn't until seeing Pete's explanation that I really began to grasp
the relationship of these elements.
Unless you have attended the seminar, any builder of a Jabiru-powered
plane should get this DVD which also has lots of other info. At only
$20, IMHO it's a "must have" bargain.
Ron
Murphy Rebel 254R
http://n254mr.com
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Oh, damn, it's those boring coils again |
Rob, I've had my 3300 for about the correct time for the offending coils to have
been installed on my engine. The photo you have attached, is that the "bad"
coil ? Does anyone have a photo of the replacement "good" coil ? Thanks in advance
and to John KEEP UP YOUR NOISE !!? I appreciate any man who is pissed about
a slight and does not just shrug it off. We attorneys make our living from
just such issues, especially when the widow come into the office and wants justice.
Best regards, Bill of Georgia
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Turk <matronics@rtist.nl>
Sent: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 8:56 am
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Oh, damn, it's those boring coils again
?
John,?
?
I have not been able to find the pictures you took of the coils you have, but if you had "Leading GX" coils you would have known for sure. Those coils have this exact text stamped on the coils themselves. Check out Gille's website for his story on coils, or look at this picture: http://contrails.free.fr/images/moy_DSCF2368.png?
?
There's no way you would be able to miss this if you were looking for a clue, so
I'm quite confident that yours are not Leading GX.?
?
Rob?
?
?
?
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | Oh, damn, it's those boring coils again |
Hi John and Listers,
There's no doubt in my mind that the coils supplied by us and others to
John
after his problems were NOT the Leading GX types, but as he says, the
ones
he got did appear to have a slightly different pattern than the later
ones.
The Leading GX coils issue, was covered well and in warranty for all
those
US customers who had them. However, there was a problem for Jabiru in
getting enough replacements, and fast, so those with the (possibly)
faulty
coils weren't grounded for long. Honestly? I really don't know whether
Jabiru had a couple of different coil suppliers to deal with the
shortage
issue, but it wouldn't surprise me, and it would explain the 'different
size' thing John reported. I offer this as an educated guess, not fact.
We
haven't seen issues before or since the 'Leading GX' problem which could
be
traced to either a batch or generic issue, so any failed coils (and
there
have been a few across hundreds of engines) have been handled by dealers
as
best as possible. Most of the coil failures have occurred due to
over-temperature operation, which is why it's sometimes difficult to
'prove'
to Jabiru that a coil has failed in some other mode. I'm certainly not
saying John overheated his coils, just that at the time, I couldn't get
Jabiru to agree to replacement. Like it or not, such decisions are
subjective with this sort of problem. I've told John I would try again
to
get the warranty claim upheld and I admit the delay in pushing it with
Jabiru. I'm hopeful of a positive result very soon.
Andy Silvester
Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc.
39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542
Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246
www.suncoastjabiru.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 1:29 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Oh, damn, it's those boring coils again
In a message dated 10/5/2007 2:59:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jabiruengine-list@matronics.com writes:
John, you good old "high time" pilot,
You know, you're really a bore. We know where you stand and we've seen
the service you could have received. Thank goodness my e-mail has a
'delete sender' setting.
Have a wonderful day yourself, John.
jeff small HDS/3300
Hello Jeff,
I'm sorry you find Jabiru's failure to honor their warranty and in
flight
ignition failures such a bore, man! But, I am glad you are familiar with
your delete key, but you might want to read the next paragraph before
you
use it, though.
At the risk of boring you further, Jeff, I've had a response from the
coil
pictures I posted on the Yahoo Jabiru forum and at least one person has
chimed in to say that my engine appears to have had the "Leading GX"
coils.
So, even though the serial number on my engine is 220 higher than the
last
engine that, according to Jabiru factory documentation, was supposed to
be
shipped with these known bad coils, mine was indeed shipped from the
factory
"Leading GX" ignition coils that were known to have high failure rates.
This
is so boring!
Maybe your engine has them too, Jeff? Did you ever consider that? Might
want
to take a peek before the next time you go fly, man! Unless, of course,
you
are into "arboreal adventures".
You have yourself a wonderful day too, Jeff!
Once again, if anyone reading this is considering a Jabiru, let the
buyer
beware! It is now apparent that Jabiru knowingly shipped my engine with
coils that they knew were bad, 220 engines after they were supposed to
have
discontinued use of the "Leading GX" coils. This is also after they
apparently told some French and UK Jab owners about it and told them to
discontinue use of these coils immediately 220 engines later, folks.
Stunning. I suppose this is why Jabiru has been so quiet about my
warranty
claim.
Oh well, I guess I should be happy that I was just able to "live" with
it.......right Jeff?
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
Europa N245E - Flying
_____
See what's n="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Propeller selection |
Ralph
I am curious why do you say that the manual is not written first in English?
The rest of your post is helpful.
Cheers
Peter H
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jetboy
Sent: Friday, 5 October 2007 6:19 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Propeller selection
Rob,
The temperature limits changed with the revisions to the cyl. heads, so the
new manual does not correctly reflect the conditions for an old engine.
Your observation is correct, a lot is confusing, better to trust your own
judgement and dealer support. Bear in mind the manual is not written in
English, just printed that way, and may require some translation to get the
job done.
Props for the 2200 are listed in the installation manual as up to 68" with
pitch of between 30" and 48" and a moment of inertia spec that needs to be
met.
Glad you brought the subject up, I just ordered a 64' x 30" prop without
realising that to do my first choice 64" x 28" would have been out of
limits. I decided on the 64" x 30" because someone has already done that
prop on same airframe with good results.
Dont worry about exceeding any mach numbers on prop or airframe I assure you
that wont happen any time soon. Its rare to get more than 3100 rpm for most
of us.
I think the 70" prop is only for the 8 cyl. engines which run a bit lower
rpm.
Ralph
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138245#138245
Message 11
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|
| Subject: | Re: Propeller selection |
No doubt he's referring to the fact that it's an Australian engine, Peter.
;-)
-john-
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Peter Harris
> Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 2:23 PM
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Propeller selection
>
> --> <peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>
> Ralph
> I am curious why do you say that the manual is not written
> first in English?
> The rest of your post is helpful.
> Cheers
> Peter H
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of jetboy
> Sent: Friday, 5 October 2007 6:19 PM
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Propeller selection
>
> <sanson.r@xtra.co.nz>
>
> Rob,
> The temperature limits changed with the revisions to the cyl.
> heads, so the new manual does not correctly reflect the
> conditions for an old engine.
>
> Your observation is correct, a lot is confusing, better to
> trust your own judgement and dealer support. Bear in mind the
> manual is not written in English, just printed that way, and
> may require some translation to get the job done.
>
> Props for the 2200 are listed in the installation manual as
> up to 68" with pitch of between 30" and 48" and a moment of
> inertia spec that needs to be met.
>
> Glad you brought the subject up, I just ordered a 64' x 30"
> prop without realising that to do my first choice 64" x 28"
> would have been out of limits. I decided on the 64" x 30"
> because someone has already done that prop on same airframe
> with good results.
> Dont worry about exceeding any mach numbers on prop or
> airframe I assure you that wont happen any time soon. Its
> rare to get more than 3100 rpm for most of us.
> I think the 70" prop is only for the 8 cyl. engines which run
> a bit lower rpm.
>
> Ralph
>
> --------
> Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=138245#138245
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Photoshare, and much much more:
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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This is mostly a question for one of the dealers that are on this list, but comments
will be appreciated from all.
I now have 12 hours on my 3300. I've been running with Aeroshell mineral oil.
In a couple of weeks I'm planning flying to the Copperstate Fly in. That's about
an 8 hour flight, one way for me.
I know I need to switch oil at 25 hours. If I try hard, I might find time to fly
5 more hours before the trip. That would put me at 17 hours. I expect to have
over 30 hours on the engine by the time I get back. Maybe even more if I feel
up to flying to Las Vegas for a couple of days.
I really don't want to change oil while on the trip, so I plan on changing it just
before leaving. The question is which oil? Should I use mineral oil and just
leave it in until I get back? Or switch to the Aeroshell 100W a few hours
early? How big of a deal is it to go a complete 25 hours on the mineral oil? Would
it be a problem if I were to go 30-35 hours on mineral oil?
Randy Stout
San Antonio TX
www.geocities.com/n282rs
n282rs@satx.rr.com
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