Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:27 AM - Re: Oil change (n1bzrich@AOL.COM)
2. 06:28 AM - Coils and Service Bulletins (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
3. 07:13 AM - Re: Oil change (Andy Silvester)
4. 08:23 AM - Re: Oil change (n282rs@satx.rr.com)
5. 08:34 AM - Re: Oil change (Rob)
6. 10:35 AM - Re: Re: Propeller selection (Marin Streeter)
7. 06:20 PM - Re: Oil change (BobsV35B@aol.com)
Message 1
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Randy,
???? I am sure Pete or Andy will jump in here and answer your question, but here
are a few thoughts before they do.? For my way of thinking the answer to your
question really depends on how hard you are running your engine and of course
that will depend on the airframe you have it in.? A clean, slick go fast airplane
will allow the engine to not work as hard at some specific airspeed as it
would on a dirty airframe.? And of course, how hard you run the engine in general
will also be a consideration.? The bottom line is you want to use the mineral
oil at least until the rings are set (broken in) and how long that takes
depends on the above thoughts.? In most installations you will see a drop in
operating oil temperature when the rings are finally all set.? Normally 25 hours
would be long enough to run the mineral oil for most installations but?there
should be no problem to run it longer.? Don't forget you need to do the head
torques (and valve adjustments if you have a solid l
ifter engine).? Those things are important as well.? On my 3300 (which now has
370 hours in the last 22 months) I didn't change to Aeroshell W100 plus until
about the 30 hour point, but I had already done?one oil change (mineral oil)
at about the 15 hour point.? As far as oil changes go, I believe that "more is
better", and keeping clean, fresh oil in the engine (and running it on a regular
basis) is how you get long engine life.? I normally change oil and filter
every 25 hours.
Blue Skies,
Buz Rich
-----Original Message-----
From: n282rs@satx.rr.com
Sent: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 12:41 am
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Oil change
This is mostly a question for one of the dealers that are on this list, but
comments will be appreciated from all.
I now have 12 hours on my 3300. I've been running with Aeroshell mineral oil.
In a couple of weeks I'm planning flying to the Copperstate Fly in. That's about
an 8 hour flight, one way for me.
I know I need to switch oil at 25 hours. If I try hard, I might find time to fly
5 more hours before the trip. That would put me at 17 hours. I expect to have
over 30 hours on the engine by the time I get back. Maybe even more if I feel up
to flying to Las Vegas for a couple of days.
I really don't want to change oil while on the trip, so I plan on changing it
just before leaving. The question is which oil? Should I use mineral oil and
just leave it in until I get back? Or switch to the Aeroshell 100W a few hours
early? How big of a deal is it to go a complete 25 hours on the mineral oil?
Would it be a problem if I were to go 30-35 hours on mineral oil?
Randy Stout
San Antonio TX
www.geocities.com/n282rs
n282rs@satx.rr.com
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | Coils and Service Bulletins |
In a message dated 10/6/2007 3:00:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jabiruengine-list@matronics.com writes:
"Leading GX" coils may have suffered a high failure rate, I
doubt if it was 100%.
Hello Doug,
Judge for yourself whether or not this was a serious issue. Here is what the
"recommended action" that Jab dealers in France told their customers
regarding these coils in the letter they issued to their customers on September
3,
2003, well over a year before my engine was produced:
"Recommended Action
If your engine is within this serial number range or you have a glossy black
coil fitted :
1. Do not fly until replacement coils have been supplied by Jabiru.
2. Strongly recommend that all cowled installations supply cooling air
to the coils
3. Fit insulating washers P/N PH4A004 under coils to prevent heat
transfer "
Notice how it says "do not fly"? Notice how it says "if you have "a glossy
black coil fitted?" No mention of wording stamped on the coil in this part of
their letter, although the "Leading GX" notation is mentioned earlier in the
letter. I take this as a sign that the bad coils were not limited to only the
ones that had "Leading GX" or "Leading GC" stamped on them. Only Jabiru
knows for sure and only Jabiru knows what engines they installed the faulty coils
on.
Jabiru clearly thought it was serious enough to ground aircraft with these
black glossy coils, but I can find no Service Bulletin that was ever issued
related to these coils. In fact, I find no mention of these coils at all on
Jabiru's website. According to the letter sent to Jab owners in France, which
I
found on a French website not at all related to Jabiru, there were 236,
2200's produced with these coils and 176, 3300's produced with them, plus mine.
Mine came 220 engines after these coils were supposed to have been
discontinued. Are there others? Wouldn't you like to know?
As you will see in my photo's my original coils were glossy and black, but
they did not have "Leading GX" or "Leading GC" printed on them. Apparently,
some of those coils, or the ones that they were replaced with, did not have
that notation, but they failed just the same. If heat did in my coils, someone
please explain how that happened when one was failed at first start up? I'd
also like an explanination as to how the two replacement "good" coils have now
worked flawlessly for 119 hours and 89 hours respectively if my engine and
cooling setup is overheating the coils? Nobody seems to have an answer there.
As far as whether or not it's a big deal to have an ignition fail, consider
that when it happened to me I was in an aircraft that was new to me, about 30
hours TT. The engine looses RPM and starts running rough. not rough like
it's about to come apart, but rough compared to the way it runs with both
ignitions functioning properly. Certainly rough enough with enough RPM drop to
get
your attention pronto. I was fortunate that I was over my strip when it
happened. Maybe you don't think that's a big deal, but I do, especially when it
could have been avoided. It's called risk managment and in order to effectively
manage risk you must have knowledge. Jabiru has intentionally withheld that
knowledge from their American customers for unknown reasons. I think if you
find yourself in that situation, you, as I, will think it's a very big deal.
It's easy to dismiss when it happens on somebody else's engine, though. What
is most troubling here is that Jabiru knowingly shipped my engine with these
"black glossy" coils over a year and 220 engines after they grounded aircraft
in France for the very same reason. Am I the only one here that sees a
problem with that?
Another thing that troubles me is why no SB? Are there more of these coils
out there floating around not yet in use? What about the guy who has an engine
close to the manufacture date of mine that has yet to be installed and flown
and it's still sitting pickled in the box on his hangar floor? There have to
be a few of those out there, don't you think? How is he going to find out
that his engine coils are potentially bad and really shouldn't be flown when
Jabiru hasn't issued a Service Bulletin and there is no mention of this problem
on their web site? In my humble opinion there needs to be a Service Bulletin
issued for this problem immediately. Jabiru needs to stop being quiet about
it, own up to the problem, let everybody know, replace the coils under
warranty that should be replaced, all before something really bad happens. That
would be the professional way to handle this issue, don't you think?
To see my coil pictures, go to the Yahoo Jabiru Engines forum. You'll
probably have to join the forum to view the pictures. Then, go to the "Photo"
section and skip to the last page. Back up one page by hitting the "previous"
button. My pictures are on the next to the last page, top row, second from the
left. The pictures show two coils sitting side by side on my bench vise. There
is a front and rear view. The one on the left is the bad coil and the one on
the right is the newer TEK coil.
I'm sorry if some of you find my posts sarcastic, but I find it unfathomable
that Jabiru would knowingly send out engines with known bad coils. To
further compound the problem they have failed to tell anybody about it through
an
SB, letter, or e-mail, but rather relied on their dealers to handle it. My
situation is a clear example that letting the dealers handle it didn't work.
Critical information did not make it to the end user and I had to go to a
non-Jabiru French website to find out what was going on. I also find it
unbelievable that some folks just dismiss it as if it were coils on a lawn mower
engine.
Folks who dabble in aviation with attitudes like that usually wind up as
statistics. Everyone who flies behind one of these engines should be equally
concerned as I am unless you have verified that you do not have these bad coils
installed. If you know of anybody who has an engine that was manufactuered
in late 2004, but has yet to fly with it, please tell them about these coils
so they don't become a statistic.
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
Europa N245E
Message 3
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Randy,
Buz has done a good job of answering but I'll jump in and add that there's
really no pressing need to change the oil at exactly 25 hours for the
multigrade or non-mineral oil. We usually find that oil temperatures are a
little higher with the straight mineral oil, so after 25 hours some owners
want to change to get slightly better temps - particularly in summer. I have
run mineral oil for 50 hours (changing at 25) to perhaps better ensure
ring-seal but (then again) I have also used W100 right from the start too;
the directions confirm it's suitable for running-in. Neither of these
engines exhibited any appreciable difference in compressions or leak-down
results during their lives.
Oils these days are pretty good at both lubrication and heat transfer, so
for me, there's little proof that in the Jabiru, the oil type makes much
difference to the break-in. It's just that tradition tells us to use mineral
oil for the break-in, and no-doubt there will be others who can point to
conclusive research for Lycomings or Continentals to prove it. For the
Jabiru, I doubt with the tolerances involved, it matters much what oil you
use or when you change it from one type to the other. However, it DOES
matter that you use an aviation-grade oil and I agree that more frequent oil
changes are a good thing. Hope this helps.
Andy Silvester
Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc.
39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542
Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246
www.suncoastjabiru.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
n282rs@satx.rr.com
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 5:42 AM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Oil change
This is mostly a question for one of the dealers that are on this list, but
comments will be appreciated from all.
I now have 12 hours on my 3300. I've been running with Aeroshell mineral
oil. In a couple of weeks I'm planning flying to the Copperstate Fly in.
That's about an 8 hour flight, one way for me.
I know I need to switch oil at 25 hours. If I try hard, I might find time to
fly 5 more hours before the trip. That would put me at 17 hours. I expect to
have over 30 hours on the engine by the time I get back. Maybe even more if
I feel up to flying to Las Vegas for a couple of days.
I really don't want to change oil while on the trip, so I plan on changing
it just before leaving. The question is which oil? Should I use mineral oil
and just leave it in until I get back? Or switch to the Aeroshell 100W a few
hours early? How big of a deal is it to go a complete 25 hours on the
mineral oil? Would it be a problem if I were to go 30-35 hours on mineral
oil?
Randy Stout
San Antonio TX
www.geocities.com/n282rs
n282rs@satx.rr.com
Message 4
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Thanks Andy and Buzz
I don't have any complaints with the oil temps. In the first 5 hours, they got
a bit high. Now they are usually around 190 F on a hot day. In the winter, I may
have to block off the oil cooler.
The CHTs seemed to have settled in around 290 F except for the front 2 which normally
run about 310 F. I'm hoping they come down a little more.
I know that frequent oil changes are a good thing. I did my first at 5 hours, putting
mineral oil back in. So I think I'm going to go ahead and change it again
next weekend to AeroShell 100W along with checking the head torque and valves.
That will make me take an extra look at the engine before the trip.
Randy Stout
San Antonio TX
www.geocities.com/n282rs
n282rs@satx.rr.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Silvester <andy@suncoastjabiru.com>
To:jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Oil change
Randy,
Buz has done a good job of answering but I'll jump in and add that there's
really no pressing need to change the oil at exactly 25 hours for the
multigrade or non-mineral oil. We usually find that oil temperatures are a
little higher with the straight mineral oil, so after 25 hours some owners
want to change to get slightly better temps - particularly in summer. I have
run mineral oil for 50 hours (changing at 25) to perhaps better ensure
ring-seal but (then again) I have also used W100 right from the start too;
the directions confirm it's suitable for running-in. Neither of these
engines exhibited any appreciable difference in compressions or leak-down
results during their lives.
Oils these days are pretty good at both lubrication and heat transfer, so
for me, there's little proof that in the Jabiru, the oil type makes much
difference to the break-in. It's just that tradition tells us to use mineral
oil for the break-in, and no-doubt there will be others who can point to
conclusive research for Lycomings or Continentals to prove it. For the
Jabiru, I doubt with the tolerances involved, it matters much what oil you
use or when you change it from one type to the other. However, it DOES
matter that you use an aviation-grade oil and I agree that more frequent oil
changes are a good thing. Hope this helps.
Andy Silvester
Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc.
39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542
Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246
www.suncoastjabiru.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
n282rs@satx.rr.com
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 5:42 AM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Oil change
This is mostly a question for one of the dealers that are on this list, but
comments will be appreciated from all.
I now have 12 hours on my 3300. I've been running with Aeroshell mineral
oil. In a couple of weeks I'm planning flying to the Copperstate Fly in.
That's about an 8 hour flight, one way for me.
I know I need to switch oil at 25 hours. If I try hard, I might find time to
fly 5 more hours before the trip. That would put me at 17 hours. I expect to
have over 30 hours on the engine by the time I get back. Maybe even more if
I feel up to flying to Las Vegas for a couple of days.
I really don't want to change oil while on the trip, so I plan on changing
it just before leaving. The question is which oil? Should I use mineral oil
and just leave it in until I get back? Or switch to the Aeroshell 100W a few
hours early? How big of a deal is it to go a complete 25 hours on the
mineral oil? Would it be a problem if I were to go 30-35 hours on mineral
oil?
Randy Stout
San Antonio TX
www.geocities.com/n282rs
n282rs@satx.rr.com
Message 5
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Randy, on your way to and from Copper State stop at KSJN, St. Johns, AZ
for fuel. They have the best price, currently $3.45 for 100LL. I have my
Jabiru hangered there. They also offer a courtsey car.
Rob
n282rs@satx.rr.com wrote:
>
>
>Thanks Andy and Buzz
>
>I don't have any complaints with the oil temps. In the first 5 hours, they got
a bit high. Now they are usually around 190 F on a hot day. In the winter, I
may have to block off the oil cooler.
>
>The CHTs seemed to have settled in around 290 F except for the front 2 which normally
run about 310 F. I'm hoping they come down a little more.
>
>I know that frequent oil changes are a good thing. I did my first at 5 hours,
putting mineral oil back in. So I think I'm going to go ahead and change it again
next weekend to AeroShell 100W along with checking the head torque and valves.
That will make me take an extra look at the engine before the trip.
>
>Randy Stout
>San Antonio TX
>www.geocities.com/n282rs
>n282rs@satx.rr.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Andy Silvester <andy@suncoastjabiru.com>
>
>Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 15:11:17
>To:jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Oil change
>
>
>
>Randy,
>
>Buz has done a good job of answering but I'll jump in and add that there's
>really no pressing need to change the oil at exactly 25 hours for the
>multigrade or non-mineral oil. We usually find that oil temperatures are a
>little higher with the straight mineral oil, so after 25 hours some owners
>want to change to get slightly better temps - particularly in summer. I have
>run mineral oil for 50 hours (changing at 25) to perhaps better ensure
>ring-seal but (then again) I have also used W100 right from the start too;
>the directions confirm it's suitable for running-in. Neither of these
>engines exhibited any appreciable difference in compressions or leak-down
>results during their lives.
>
>Oils these days are pretty good at both lubrication and heat transfer, so
>for me, there's little proof that in the Jabiru, the oil type makes much
>difference to the break-in. It's just that tradition tells us to use mineral
>oil for the break-in, and no-doubt there will be others who can point to
>conclusive research for Lycomings or Continentals to prove it. For the
>Jabiru, I doubt with the tolerances involved, it matters much what oil you
>use or when you change it from one type to the other. However, it DOES
>matter that you use an aviation-grade oil and I agree that more frequent oil
>changes are a good thing. Hope this helps.
>
>Andy Silvester
>Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc.
>39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542
>Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246
>www.suncoastjabiru.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>n282rs@satx.rr.com
>Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 5:42 AM
>To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
>Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Oil change
>
>
>This is mostly a question for one of the dealers that are on this list, but
>comments will be appreciated from all.
>
>I now have 12 hours on my 3300. I've been running with Aeroshell mineral
>oil. In a couple of weeks I'm planning flying to the Copperstate Fly in.
>That's about an 8 hour flight, one way for me.
>
>I know I need to switch oil at 25 hours. If I try hard, I might find time to
>fly 5 more hours before the trip. That would put me at 17 hours. I expect to
>have over 30 hours on the engine by the time I get back. Maybe even more if
>I feel up to flying to Las Vegas for a couple of days.
>
>I really don't want to change oil while on the trip, so I plan on changing
>it just before leaving. The question is which oil? Should I use mineral oil
>and just leave it in until I get back? Or switch to the Aeroshell 100W a few
>hours early? How big of a deal is it to go a complete 25 hours on the
>mineral oil? Would it be a problem if I were to go 30-35 hours on mineral
>oil?
>
>Randy Stout
>San Antonio TX
>www.geocities.com/n282rs
>n282rs@satx.rr.com
>
>
>--
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Propeller selection |
Ron
Thanks for the info I am building a Bushcaddy E-LSA in Silvana WA and hope
to here how it goes for you. I travel to the peninsula about once a month
and if you do not mind I would like to stop by.
Marin Streeter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Shannon
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Propeller selection
FWIW, at Oshkosh '06 I spoke with the Legend Aircraft folks about their
prop selection for the 3300 option on their Cub LSA. They had tested
several props, and concluded that a Sensenich 68x38 was the best. They
were very positive about its performance on that relatively draggy
airframe, even though they knew I wasn't a sales prospect for them. A
68x38 is the largest prop I had ever heard of being used on the 3300.
I then consulted the Sensenich technical folks at some length, and they
confirmed that the W68CK38G composite-covered wood prop would be the
best prop for my 3300-powered Murphy Rebel. Haven't tested or flown it
yet, but I'll let you know how it turns out.
To understand the issues surrounding the interaction of prop selection,
engine (carb), and airframe, I would highly recommend the DVD "Jabiru
Engine Installation Seminar" available from http://homebuilthelp.com.
It's a condensed version of the seminar presented by US Jabiru. There
are two segments in which Pete Krotje explains the Bing carb in detail,
particularly how different prop loading interacts with the Bing constant
depression mechanism in different phases of flight. Although I had
studied the prop loading/engine/airframe & tip speed issues quite a bit,
it wasn't until seeing Pete's explanation that I really began to grasp
the relationship of these elements.
Unless you have attended the seminar, any builder of a Jabiru-powered
plane should get this DVD which also has lots of other info. At only
$20, IMHO it's a "must have" bargain.
Ron
Murphy Rebel 254R
http://n254mr.com
Message 7
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Good Afternoon Andy,
For What It Is Worth, my last four engines have been broken in using
Phillips XC multi grade oil. I use as high a power as I can get and still be in
the
cruise range. All of them had the rings well seated in less than ten hours,
Usually less than five.
While these were all flat continentals, they have given me excellent service
and one was just removed at the factory recommended TBO time. No cylinders
have been pulled on any of the four.
I formerly used Shell W oils, but switched to Phillips because of their
support of the Young Eagles Program. I definitely agree that all oils are good
today and I do not believe there is any advantage at all to using mineral oil
for break in.
I am also a firm believer in running the engine hard during the break in
period.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 10/6/2007 9:14:58 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
andy@suncoastjabiru.com writes:
Oils these days are pretty good at both lubrication and heat transfer, so
for me, there's little proof that in the Jabiru, the oil type makes much
difference to the break-in. It's just that tradition tells us to use mineral
oil for the break-in, and no-doubt there will be others who can point to
conclusive research for Lycomings or Continentals to prove it. For the
Jabiru, I doubt with the tolerances involved, it matters much what oil you
use or when you change it from one type to the other. However, it DOES
matter that you use an aviation-grade oil and I agree that more frequent oil
changes are a good thing. Hope this helps.
Andy Silvester
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