Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:09 AM - Re: Coils and Service Bulletins (Kayberg@AOL.COM)
2. 04:27 AM - Re: Jabiru Coils (Kayberg@AOL.COM)
3. 06:28 AM - Re: Coils and Service Bulletins (Dave G.)
4. 06:37 AM - Re: Jabiru Coils (Dave G.)
5. 07:35 AM - Coils (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
6. 12:19 PM - Re: Coils (Andy Silvester)
7. 12:36 PM - Notification of Jabiru Service Bulletin JSB018-1 ()
8. 01:04 PM - Re: Coils (Rob)
9. 01:36 PM - Re: Coils (Andy Silvester)
10. 01:36 PM - Re: Coils (rlaviation@aol.com)
11. 05:19 PM - Re: Coils (Kayberg@aol.com)
12. 05:41 PM - Re: Coils (Kayberg@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Coils and Service Bulletins |
In a message dated 10/7/2007 11:04:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, d.goddard@ns
.sympatico.ca writes:
Your points are all fine as far as they go. How do you defend the fact that
Jabiru has not honoured or denied their warranty. They've not responded at
all?
As I and others have noted, the face of Jabiru in the USA is its three
dealers. In the last week or so, two of the three dealers have responded to the
thread, on one two occasions. If memory serves, they have also previously
responded. Andy admitted to being the cause of a delayed response because he
had the coils in question and apologized. So Jabiru has responded.
One other obscured point is that there is no time rush here. The engine in
question is well out of warrantee and is currently being flown A LOT!!
Doug
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru Coils |
In a message dated 10/3/2007 5:50:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca writes:
Thanks for a somewhat long but very good tale of your trials with Jabiru. I
had my own issues with the CDN Jabiru dealer, and had decided against Jabiru
based on their actions. I'm glad they never got my check I suppose they might
be also. It took a long time for the Japanese to build a truly professional
dealer network for their products, and that's a large market. In the case of
experimental aircraft engines it may never happen.
I can't comment on the CDN dealer, but my understanding is that before
Jabiru had it's current 3 dealers in the USA, there was much unhappyness with
the
single dealer at the time.
Your point about achieving a good dealer network is a good one. My
understanding is that the early Jab engines had a number of significant problems.
A
friend of mine was importing a Canadian two-stoke engine that was very bad.
He had a whole workbench full of bad engines and parts. He dropped the
line and told me if I ever tried something like that I was crazy!!! Now
several years later that same manufacturer is suppling engines for the Mosquito
ultralight helicopter. They claimed the engine was working fine.
Some of us remember the early Japanese cars. Hardly the industry leaders
they are today.
My opinion is that the current Jabiru dealers in the USA are excellent.
The volume of sales they are achieving makes it easy to service their customers
well. Of course there are occasional exceptions.
Doug
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Coils and Service Bulletins |
OK, as I understand things the dealer(s) have SOLD him new coils, which
appear to be working out ok. It really still does not address the
original problem that the warranty has not been observed. The fact that
the engine is now out of warranty and is working well is not relevant.
The responses I've seen didn't really indicate that the dealer felt it
was their role to adjudicate claims.In fact, It appears that one of the
dealers did recieve a response from Jabiru that they would not honour
the warranty, the dealer appears to disagree with their stand.
I don't know if there is another batch of "bad" coils out there, it's
likely that only the factory does.
It looks to me like you are encouraging John to just accept things as
they are, having bought replacements for apparently defective and
warrantied parts and walk away. I likely would, but I applaud his
tenacity.
---- Original Message -----
From: Kayberg@aol.com
To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Coils and Service Bulletins
In a message dated 10/7/2007 11:04:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca writes:
Your points are all fine as far as they go. How do you defend the
fact that Jabiru has not honoured or denied their warranty. They've not
responded at all?
As I and others have noted, the face of Jabiru in the USA is its three
dealers. In the last week or so, two of the three dealers have
responded to the thread, on one two occasions. If memory serves, they
have also previously responded. Andy admitted to being the cause of a
delayed response because he had the coils in question and apologized.
So Jabiru has responded.
One other obscured point is that there is no time rush here. The
engine in question is well out of warrantee and is currently being flown
A LOT!!
Doug
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
See what's new a
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru Coils |
I won't comment on the CDN dealer either, I assume they are reliable
enough to please their customers. I'm not sure what happened in my case.
Having more than one would be nice but we are a small market.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kayberg@aol.com
To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru Coils
In a message dated 10/3/2007 5:50:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca writes:
I can't comment on the CDN dealer, but my understanding is that
before Jabiru had it's current 3 dealers in the USA, there was much
unhappyness with the single dealer at the time.
Your point about achieving a good dealer network is a good one. My
understanding is that the early Jab engines had a number of significant
problems.
Message 5
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In a message dated 10/8/2007 2:59:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Kayberg@AOL.COM writes:
1) "Recomended Action" came from DEALERS in FRANCE. Even thought their
suggestion is "Do not fly", that is their opinion, and would not
necessarily be
mine, UNLESS I had a cowled engine with no airflow over the coils.
2) Applying my logic and the posts of a couple others, by serial number
and
by the thoughts of others, you didnt have the "leading GX coils"!
3) As I noted before, coils tend to fail early in their service live if
they have a defect. You mention that one failed on start-up. That is to
be
very occasionally expected.
4) The failure in flight of a coil on a tightly cowled installation COULD
have been related to overheating.
5) As I mentioned before, the rpm drop you experienced could have been
reduced by switching off the offending coil.....unless that was not the sole
cause
of the rpm drop.
6) Lastly, I think your assumptions are incorrect as to the significance of
Jabiru silence. You presume they are trying to hide something. But it
could
be that all problems have been corrected. You assume there are people
flying with "bad coils". But logic would say if they are still flying
after 4
years of service, maybe the coils were not that bad after all.
Hello again Doug,
Thanks for your input, but I think you're missing some key points here.
In regard you your points, in order, here's what you are missing:
#1, these engines with these bad coils were also sold in the USA. Why no
dealer letter here? I had never heard of this issue prior to being pointed to
the French Jabiru dealer's letter by a Europa owner. I have been told that this
issue was discussed in "Jabbachat" in 2002 or 2003, 2-3 years before I
bought my engine. So, I'm supposed to wade through hundreds of posts on their
chat
forum from 5 years ago to find out about this potential problem? Isn't that
what Service Bulletins are for?
#2, No, I clearly did not have "Leading GX" coils, as I've said repeatedly.
Again, mine did not have that notation. However, it has come to my attention
from another Jab owner who has learned that Jabiru sourced a batch of cheap,
Chinese knock-off coils that came after the "Leading GX" and "Leading GC"
coils, but before the TEK coils currently in use. These too, apparently had a
high failure rate. I think this is what came on my engine, although I'm still
trying to verify that as fact. I also think this is the "black glossy" coil
that is referred to in the French Jabiru dealer letter.
#3 & #4, I'm aware of that. However, that still does not explain why the
first coil was not covered under my warranty. It also does not explain why my
current coils have been running for 90 and 120 hours respectively with no
problems. If I had a problem with coil cooling in my set up it stands to reason
that the current coils would have also failed due to heat, doesn't it? That has
not occurred. I followed the Jabiru installation guidelines to the letter,
including verifying the installation of phenolic washers behind the coils,
which were installed at the factory and were installed behind the replacement
coils I purchased. I also installed the cooling tubes to direct air onto the
coils as directed by Jabiru in their installation guide. Nothing in my cooling
set up has changed since before I first ran the engine, except for the
installation of a larger oil cooler and that is not anywhere near the coils. Thus,
through simple logic you can deduce that heat was not the issue that caused
my original coils to fail. If it were, subsequent coils installed would have
also failed. Of course, now we will never know because my coils were destroyed
by the dealer and were never sent to Jabiru for inspection. All I have to
rely on is pictures now.
#5, I did that immediately to see what the problem was when the engine began
to run rough and lost RPM's. Turning off the bad ignition did not help the
rough running or the RPM drop. Think about how the engine runs on one side
doing a mag check. That is what it was like, only at higher RPM's. Replacing the
coil with a good one fixed the problem and my engine has been running like a
sewing machine ever since I purchased the TEK coils and installed them at 0
hours and 30 hours respectively.
#6, I would imagine that anyone who has been flying a Jabiru engine for 4
years that came with any of these known bad coils has already replaced them.
My concern is for the guy who has an engine that was produced along about the
same time as mine that potentially has these coils installed that has not yet
flown. There are bound to be some of those out there. If you were one of
these people, would you not want to know that you have coils on your engine that
have a high probability to fail on your first flight? I sure would.
As to whether or not Jabiru is covering things up, I have no way of knowing
because they will not communicate with me directly. I have not said that
Jabiru is covering things up at all. Andy told me a few days ago that he
destroyed and discarded the coils I sent back to him for warranty replacement,
apparently at the direction of Jabiru. I am told this was to save shipping costs.
Jabiru then proceeds to tell Andy that they are certain my coils failed due to
heat exposure without even testing them and as such, refuses to honor my
warranty. Despite Andy's insistence otherwise, Jabiru is holding firm, with
absolutely no evidence to back up their claim. You are free to draw your own
conclusions as to what is happening here. I am left wondering exactly how Jabiru
determines whether or not to warranty a coil if they don't inspect them? They
clearly don't want them sent back to the factory for inspection and
evaluation. Exactly how have they determined that mine failed due to heat exposure?
They've not seen my setup, the temps it runs at, nor have they inspected my
coils. Perhaps they use the "Magic 8-Ball" method?
As Dave G. says, Jabiru can avoid all the bad PR by replacing my coils or,
preferably, by providing me with a refund for the replacements I purchased,
even at this late date. I paid for that warranty with the price of my engine and
I am being denied coverage based on absolutely no evidence that my original
coils were killed from heat. Jabiru can and should issue a letter, or
preferably a Service Bulletin, letting folks know that there might be a few of
these coils floating around out there, how to identify them, and that they are
potentially hazardous. Only Jabiru knows for sure how many of them there are
and they aren't talking. That would be the smart thing to do, don't you think?
Those coils, if discovered, should also be replaced under warranty. Given the
high failure rate that the Chinese coils seem to have had, it stands to
reason that it is in Jabiru's best interests to get them off all engines ASAP.
I
think this is a reasonable approach and one that I've seen Rotax and other
engine manufacturers take on numerous issues that weren't nearly as serious as
ignition failure due to known bad coils. The gist of what I'm saying is
Jabiru has not acted in a professional manner regarding these coils. Flying
experimentals requires accepting a certain amount of risk, I'll grant you that.
However, managing that risk requires that manufacturers notify their customers
of potential problems so that they can be dealt with accordingly. Apparently,
that has not happened with us American redheaded stepchildren Jabiru owners.
It's all about professionalism, or lack thereof, in my eyes.
BTW, thanks for keeping the discussion polite and on topic.
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
Europa N245E - Flying
Message 6
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The absence of input from us as John's dealer makes it look like we're
doing
nothing, which isn't true! I've put John's case (again) to Jabiru and
have
at least received a read-receipt for the email, so the issue is in their
hands, as to a warranty reimbursement for the coils and oil pressure
sender
which were faulty. Personally, I don't think there's going to be an
argument
based on the facts given so I expect to let John know as soon as I have
confirmation.
The next point I want to clarify was the action taken at the time we
knew
about the Leading GX coils from Jabiru. Each of the three USA dealers
had a
number of 'affected' engines, and we were notified by Jabiru with lists
of
serial numbers. Jabiru wanted dealers to contact their customers direct
and
resolve the issues, which is what we did. I know that Jabiru USA sent a
letter to their relevant customers and OEMs, and as the numbers of
engines
for us was only about a dozen, we called everyone, told them about the
problem, discussed the situation in depth (so they could decide what to
do:
fly or not fly, etc), and let them know when they could expect
replacements
and how to return the old coils. So, Jabiru decided (rightly or wrongly)
to
deal with the situation through their Agents for a finite number of
known
customers rather than publishing a Service Bulletin. Jabiru knew they
had an
issue, were confident of the range of affected engines, and decided on a
course of action. There was little point in us sending potentially
faulty
coils back to the other side of the world, so we were instructed to
destroy
the coils to ensure they couldn't be re-sold. When John's coils came
back,
we cut off the leads and binned them.
Other countries have different legislative frameworks for airworthiness
of
experimental aircraft, and so dealers in France and UK (probably others
too)
were bound to involve their respective governing bodies who in turn
decided
that a country-specific service letter was appropriate. Not so in USA;
we as
dealers felt we had the situation under complete control.
I have admitted both here and to John directly that I should have done
better to push his warranty case but after the first rejection by Jabiru
(in
a phone call to their Principal) I let it slip. John had fixed the
problem,
admittedly at his expense and was obviously pleased with the performance
of
his engine. The recent re-surfacing of the issue of coils here, together
with John's photos of (clearly) different pattern coils than those
currently
sold, has left a few questions which I've asked Jabiru to answer.
Honestly,
there's no cover-up in my view; I think Jabiru made the wrong warranty
decision initially about John's coils and then I failed to attend to it
by
chasing again for resolution. For me, the issue as to whether some
'known/faulty' coils got into engines after the Leading GX phase is of
course an important one and it needs to be investigated and answered and
again, I have sought these answers. I certainly haven't experienced any
such
issues with engines we've sold, except of course in John's isolated
case,
and I haven't heard of others from any other dealership; believe me,
we'd
have told each other had this come to light.
I hope this fills-in some gaps so we see a few less sparks flying (pun
totally intended). I'll keep the readership informed about anything
relevant.
Andy
Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc.
39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542
Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246
www.suncoastjabiru.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | Notification of Jabiru Service Bulletin JSB018-1 |
All,
Please be aware of revised information from Jabiru about engine carburetion
and tuning. See www.jabiru.net.au <http://www.jabiru.net.au/> for more
details. I'll be happy to try to answer related questions arising.
Andy
Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc.
39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542
Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246
www.suncoastjabiru.com
Message 8
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Hey guys, I have a question:
Isn't their a certified version of the Jab engine being used in Aussie
land. I was told long ago that the engine had been certified Down Under
and was used in a lot of their flight schools as a trainer. If that is the
case, does Jabiru have to issue AD's on those engines just as the FAA
requires on certified engines here in the USA? I wonder if any of those
shiny black coils were ever put on the certified version of the Jabiru
engine?
Just a thought. (Before someone jumps on me I realize that our engines here
in the USA are not the certified ones but I was also told that the Parts
etc for the engines are basically the same)
Rob
TELEDYNMCS@aol.com wrote:
>
>In a message dated 10/8/2007 2:59:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>Kayberg@AOL.COM writes:
>
>1) "Recomended Action" came from DEALERS in FRANCE. Even thought their
>suggestion is "Do not fly", that is their opinion, and would not
>necessarily be
>
>mine, UNLESS I had a cowled engine with no airflow over the coils.
>
>2) Applying my logic and the posts of a couple others, by serial number
>and
>by the thoughts of others, you didnt have the "leading GX coils"!
>
>3) As I noted before, coils tend to fail early in their service live if
>they have a defect. You mention that one failed on start-up. That is to
>be
>very occasionally expected.
>
>4) The failure in flight of a coil on a tightly cowled installation COULD
>have been related to overheating.
>
>5) As I mentioned before, the rpm drop you experienced could have been
>reduced by switching off the offending coil.....unless that was not the sole
> cause
>
>of the rpm drop.
>
>6) Lastly, I think your assumptions are incorrect as to the significance of
>Jabiru silence. You presume they are trying to hide something. But it
>could
>
>be that all problems have been corrected. You assume there are people
>flying with "bad coils". But logic would say if they are still flying
>after 4
>
>years of service, maybe the coils were not that bad after all.
>
>
>Hello again Doug,
>
>Thanks for your input, but I think you're missing some key points here.
>
>In regard you your points, in order, here's what you are missing:
>
>#1, these engines with these bad coils were also sold in the USA. Why no
>dealer letter here? I had never heard of this issue prior to being pointed to
>the French Jabiru dealer's letter by a Europa owner. I have been told that this
>issue was discussed in "Jabbachat" in 2002 or 2003, 2-3 years before I
>bought my engine. So, I'm supposed to wade through hundreds of posts on their
chat
>forum from 5 years ago to find out about this potential problem? Isn't that
>what Service Bulletins are for?
>
>#2, No, I clearly did not have "Leading GX" coils, as I've said repeatedly.
>Again, mine did not have that notation. However, it has come to my attention
>from another Jab owner who has learned that Jabiru sourced a batch of cheap,
>Chinese knock-off coils that came after the "Leading GX" and "Leading GC"
>coils, but before the TEK coils currently in use. These too, apparently had a
>high failure rate. I think this is what came on my engine, although I'm still
>trying to verify that as fact. I also think this is the "black glossy" coil
>that is referred to in the French Jabiru dealer letter.
>
>#3 & #4, I'm aware of that. However, that still does not explain why the
>first coil was not covered under my warranty. It also does not explain why my
>current coils have been running for 90 and 120 hours respectively with no
>problems. If I had a problem with coil cooling in my set up it stands to reason
>that the current coils would have also failed due to heat, doesn't it? That has
>not occurred. I followed the Jabiru installation guidelines to the letter,
>including verifying the installation of phenolic washers behind the coils,
>which were installed at the factory and were installed behind the replacement
>coils I purchased. I also installed the cooling tubes to direct air onto the
>coils as directed by Jabiru in their installation guide. Nothing in my cooling
>set up has changed since before I first ran the engine, except for the
>installation of a larger oil cooler and that is not anywhere near the coils.
Thus,
>through simple logic you can deduce that heat was not the issue that caused
>my original coils to fail. If it were, subsequent coils installed would have
>also failed. Of course, now we will never know because my coils were destroyed
>by the dealer and were never sent to Jabiru for inspection. All I have to
>rely on is pictures now.
>
>#5, I did that immediately to see what the problem was when the engine began
>to run rough and lost RPM's. Turning off the bad ignition did not help the
>rough running or the RPM drop. Think about how the engine runs on one side
>doing a mag check. That is what it was like, only at higher RPM's. Replacing
the
>coil with a good one fixed the problem and my engine has been running like a
>sewing machine ever since I purchased the TEK coils and installed them at 0
>hours and 30 hours respectively.
>
>#6, I would imagine that anyone who has been flying a Jabiru engine for 4
>years that came with any of these known bad coils has already replaced them.
>My concern is for the guy who has an engine that was produced along about the
>same time as mine that potentially has these coils installed that has not yet
>flown. There are bound to be some of those out there. If you were one of
>these people, would you not want to know that you have coils on your engine that
>have a high probability to fail on your first flight? I sure would.
>
>As to whether or not Jabiru is covering things up, I have no way of knowing
>because they will not communicate with me directly. I have not said that
>Jabiru is covering things up at all. Andy told me a few days ago that he
>destroyed and discarded the coils I sent back to him for warranty replacement,
>apparently at the direction of Jabiru. I am told this was to save shipping costs.
>Jabiru then proceeds to tell Andy that they are certain my coils failed due to
>heat exposure without even testing them and as such, refuses to honor my
>warranty. Despite Andy's insistence otherwise, Jabiru is holding firm, with
>absolutely no evidence to back up their claim. You are free to draw your own
>conclusions as to what is happening here. I am left wondering exactly how Jabiru
>determines whether or not to warranty a coil if they don't inspect them? They
>clearly don't want them sent back to the factory for inspection and
>evaluation. Exactly how have they determined that mine failed due to heat exposure?
>They've not seen my setup, the temps it runs at, nor have they inspected my
>coils. Perhaps they use the "Magic 8-Ball" method?
>
>As Dave G. says, Jabiru can avoid all the bad PR by replacing my coils or,
>preferably, by providing me with a refund for the replacements I purchased,
>even at this late date. I paid for that warranty with the price of my engine and
> I am being denied coverage based on absolutely no evidence that my original
>coils were killed from heat. Jabiru can and should issue a letter, or
>preferably a Service Bulletin, letting folks know that there might be a few of
>these coils floating around out there, how to identify them, and that they are
>potentially hazardous. Only Jabiru knows for sure how many of them there are
>and they aren't talking. That would be the smart thing to do, don't you think?
>Those coils, if discovered, should also be replaced under warranty. Given the
>high failure rate that the Chinese coils seem to have had, it stands to
>reason that it is in Jabiru's best interests to get them off all engines ASAP.
I
>think this is a reasonable approach and one that I've seen Rotax and other
>engine manufacturers take on numerous issues that weren't nearly as serious as
>ignition failure due to known bad coils. The gist of what I'm saying is
>Jabiru has not acted in a professional manner regarding these coils. Flying
>experimentals requires accepting a certain amount of risk, I'll grant you that.
>However, managing that risk requires that manufacturers notify their customers
>of potential problems so that they can be dealt with accordingly. Apparently,
>that has not happened with us American redheaded stepchildren Jabiru owners.
>It's all about professionalism, or lack thereof, in my eyes.
>
>BTW, thanks for keeping the discussion polite and on topic.
>
>John Lawton
>Whitwell, TN (TN89)
>Europa N245E - Flying
>
>
Message 9
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Rob,
Yes, there is a 'type certified' 2200 engine used in Jabiru's
Genearl-Aviation version of it's trainer, but the 3300 engine does not (as
far as I know) carry this certification. Also, the certification is under
the Aussie CASA (not FAA) requirements, so there's not a 100% compliance
with (say) FAA/FAR Part 23.
I'm sure there would have been some potentially faulty coils fitted to a few
of their factory aircraft and I'm equally sure they dealt with it under the
requirements of their certification.
Andy
Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc.
39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542
Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246
www.suncoastjabiru.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Coils
Hey guys, I have a question:
Isn't their a certified version of the Jab engine being used in Aussie
land. I was told long ago that the engine had been certified Down Under
and was used in a lot of their flight schools as a trainer. If that is the
case, does Jabiru have to issue AD's on those engines just as the FAA
requires on certified engines here in the USA? I wonder if any of those
shiny black coils were ever put on the certified version of the Jabiru
engine?
Just a thought. (Before someone jumps on me I realize that our engines here
in the USA are not the certified ones but I was also told that the Parts
etc for the engines are basically the same)
Rob
TELEDYNMCS@aol.com wrote:
>
>In a message dated 10/8/2007 2:59:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>Kayberg@AOL.COM writes:
>
>1) "Recomended Action" came from DEALERS in FRANCE. Even thought
their
>suggestion is "Do not fly", that is their opinion, and would not
>necessarily be
>
>mine, UNLESS I had a cowled engine with no airflow over the coils.
>
>2) Applying my logic and the posts of a couple others, by serial number
>and
>by the thoughts of others, you didnt have the "leading GX coils"!
>
>3) As I noted before, coils tend to fail early in their service live if
>they have a defect. You mention that one failed on start-up. That is
to
>be
>very occasionally expected.
>
>4) The failure in flight of a coil on a tightly cowled installation
COULD
>have been related to overheating.
>
>5) As I mentioned before, the rpm drop you experienced could have been
>reduced by switching off the offending coil.....unless that was not the
sole
> cause
>
>of the rpm drop.
>
>6) Lastly, I think your assumptions are incorrect as to the significance
of
>Jabiru silence. You presume they are trying to hide something. But it
>could
>
>be that all problems have been corrected. You assume there are people
>flying with "bad coils". But logic would say if they are still flying
>after 4
>
>years of service, maybe the coils were not that bad after all.
>
>
>Hello again Doug,
>
>Thanks for your input, but I think you're missing some key points here.
>
>In regard you your points, in order, here's what you are missing:
>
>#1, these engines with these bad coils were also sold in the USA. Why no
>dealer letter here? I had never heard of this issue prior to being pointed
to
>the French Jabiru dealer's letter by a Europa owner. I have been told that
this
>issue was discussed in "Jabbachat" in 2002 or 2003, 2-3 years before I
>bought my engine. So, I'm supposed to wade through hundreds of posts on
their chat
>forum from 5 years ago to find out about this potential problem? Isn't that
>what Service Bulletins are for?
>
>#2, No, I clearly did not have "Leading GX" coils, as I've said repeatedly.
>Again, mine did not have that notation. However, it has come to my
attention
>from another Jab owner who has learned that Jabiru sourced a batch of
cheap,
>Chinese knock-off coils that came after the "Leading GX" and "Leading GC"
>coils, but before the TEK coils currently in use. These too, apparently
had a
>high failure rate. I think this is what came on my engine, although I'm
still
>trying to verify that as fact. I also think this is the "black glossy"
coil
>that is referred to in the French Jabiru dealer letter.
>
>#3 & #4, I'm aware of that. However, that still does not explain why the
>first coil was not covered under my warranty. It also does not explain why
my
>current coils have been running for 90 and 120 hours respectively with no
>problems. If I had a problem with coil cooling in my set up it stands to
reason
>that the current coils would have also failed due to heat, doesn't it? That
has
>not occurred. I followed the Jabiru installation guidelines to the letter,
>including verifying the installation of phenolic washers behind the coils,
>which were installed at the factory and were installed behind the
replacement
>coils I purchased. I also installed the cooling tubes to direct air onto
the
>coils as directed by Jabiru in their installation guide. Nothing in my
cooling
>set up has changed since before I first ran the engine, except for the
>installation of a larger oil cooler and that is not anywhere near the
coils. Thus,
>through simple logic you can deduce that heat was not the issue that
caused
>my original coils to fail. If it were, subsequent coils installed would
have
>also failed. Of course, now we will never know because my coils were
destroyed
>by the dealer and were never sent to Jabiru for inspection. All I have to
>rely on is pictures now.
>
>#5, I did that immediately to see what the problem was when the engine
began
>to run rough and lost RPM's. Turning off the bad ignition did not help the
>rough running or the RPM drop. Think about how the engine runs on one side
>doing a mag check. That is what it was like, only at higher RPM's.
Replacing the
>coil with a good one fixed the problem and my engine has been running like
a
>sewing machine ever since I purchased the TEK coils and installed them at
0
>hours and 30 hours respectively.
>
>#6, I would imagine that anyone who has been flying a Jabiru engine for 4
>years that came with any of these known bad coils has already replaced
them.
>My concern is for the guy who has an engine that was produced along about
the
>same time as mine that potentially has these coils installed that has not
yet
>flown. There are bound to be some of those out there. If you were one of
>these people, would you not want to know that you have coils on your
engine that
>have a high probability to fail on your first flight? I sure would.
>
>As to whether or not Jabiru is covering things up, I have no way of knowing
>because they will not communicate with me directly. I have not said that
>Jabiru is covering things up at all. Andy told me a few days ago that he
>destroyed and discarded the coils I sent back to him for warranty
replacement,
>apparently at the direction of Jabiru. I am told this was to save shipping
costs.
>Jabiru then proceeds to tell Andy that they are certain my coils failed
due to
>heat exposure without even testing them and as such, refuses to honor my
>warranty. Despite Andy's insistence otherwise, Jabiru is holding firm,
with
>absolutely no evidence to back up their claim. You are free to draw your
own
>conclusions as to what is happening here. I am left wondering exactly how
Jabiru
>determines whether or not to warranty a coil if they don't inspect them?
They
>clearly don't want them sent back to the factory for inspection and
>evaluation. Exactly how have they determined that mine failed due to heat
exposure?
>They've not seen my setup, the temps it runs at, nor have they inspected
my
>coils. Perhaps they use the "Magic 8-Ball" method?
>
>As Dave G. says, Jabiru can avoid all the bad PR by replacing my coils or,
>preferably, by providing me with a refund for the replacements I purchased,
>even at this late date. I paid for that warranty with the price of my
engine and
> I am being denied coverage based on absolutely no evidence that my
original
>coils were killed from heat. Jabiru can and should issue a letter, or
>preferably a Service Bulletin, letting folks know that there might be a
few of
>these coils floating around out there, how to identify them, and that they
are
>potentially hazardous. Only Jabiru knows for sure how many of them there
are
>and they aren't talking. That would be the smart thing to do, don't you
think?
>Those coils, if discovered, should also be replaced under warranty. Given
the
>high failure rate that the Chinese coils seem to have had, it stands to
>reason that it is in Jabiru's best interests to get them off all engines
ASAP. I
>think this is a reasonable approach and one that I've seen Rotax and other
>engine manufacturers take on numerous issues that weren't nearly as
serious as
>ignition failure due to known bad coils. The gist of what I'm saying is
>Jabiru has not acted in a professional manner regarding these coils.
Flying
>experimentals requires accepting a certain amount of risk, I'll grant you
that.
>However, managing that risk requires that manufacturers notify their
customers
>of potential problems so that they can be dealt with accordingly.
Apparently,
>that has not happened with us American redheaded stepchildren Jabiru
owners.
>It's all about professionalism, or lack thereof, in my eyes.
>
>BTW, thanks for keeping the discussion polite and on topic.
>
>John Lawton
>Whitwell, TN (TN89)
>Europa N245E - Flying
>
>
Message 10
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Hello Andy,
=C2-
Received this email...not quite sure what this is all about.
=C2-
Was it sent by mistake?
=C2-
Please do not hesitate to contact me...very interested in the present status
of territories of the US distributors...I have heard many conflicting sugge
stions.
=C2-
Russell Lepre'
813-690-1916
-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Silvester <andy@suncoastjabiru.com>
Sent: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 3:17 pm
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Coils
The absence of input from us as John=99s dealer makes it look like we
=99re doing nothing, which isn=99t true! I=99ve put John
=99s case (again) to Jabiru and have at least received a read-receipt
for the email, so the issue is in their hands, as to a warranty reimbursemen
t for the coils and oil pressure sender which were faulty. Personally, I don
=99t think there=99s going to be an argument based on the facts
given so I expect to let John know as soon as I have confirmation.
=C2-
The next point I want to clarify was the action taken at the time we knew ab
out the Leading GX coils from Jabiru. Each of the three USA dealers had a nu
mber of =98affected=99 engines, and we were notified by Jabiru w
ith lists of serial numbers. Jabiru wanted dealers to contact their customer
s direct and resolve the issues, which is what we did. I know that Jabiru US
A sent a letter to their relevant customers and OEMs, and as the numbers of
engines for us was only about a dozen, we called everyone, told them about t
he problem, discussed the situation in depth (so they could decide what to d
o: fly or not fly, etc), and let them know when they could expect replacemen
ts and how to return the old coils. So, Jabiru decided (rightly or wrongly)
to deal with the situation through their Agents for a finite number of known
customers rather than publishing a Service Bulletin. Jabiru knew they had a
n issue, were confident of the range of affected engines, and decided on a c
ourse of action. There was little point in us sending potentially faulty coi
ls back to the other side of the world, so we were instructed to destroy the
coils to ensure they couldn=99t be re-sold. When John=99s coils
came back, we cut off the leads and binned them.
Other countries have different legislative frameworks for airworthiness of e
xperimental aircraft, and so dealers in France and UK (probably others too)
were bound to involve their respective governing bodies who in turn decided
that a country-specific service letter was appropriate. Not so in USA; we as
dealers felt we had the situation under complete control.
=C2-
I have admitted both here and to John directly that I should have done bette
r to push his warranty case but after the first rejection by Jabiru (in a ph
one call to their Principal) I let it slip. John had fixed the problem, admi
ttedly at his expense and was obviously pleased with the performance of his
engine. The recent re-surfacing of the issue of coils here, together with Jo
hn=99s photos of (clearly) different pattern coils than those currentl
y sold, has left a few questions which I=99ve asked Jabiru to answer.
Honestly, there=99s no cover-up in my view; I think Jabiru made the wr
ong warranty decision initially about John=99s coils and then I failed
to attend to it by chasing again for resolution. For me, the issue as to wh
ether some =98known/faulty=99 coils got into engines after the L
eading GX phase is of course an important one and it needs to be investigate
d and answered and again, I have sought these answers. I certainly haven
=99t experienced any such issues with engines we=99ve sold, except
of course in John=99s isolated case, and I haven=99t heard of ot
hers from any other dealership; believe me, we=99d have told each othe
r had this come to light.
=C2-
I hope this fills-in some gaps so we see a few less sparks flying (pun total
ly intended). I=99ll keep the readership informed about anything relev
ant.
=C2-
Andy
Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc.
39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542
Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246
www.suncoastjabiru.com
=C2-
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Message 11
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John,
As often happens in these types of discussions, some very key information
that was not previously known comes to light. We did not know that Andy had
communicated with you. And I am a little stunned by that information.
Because of what you say in the paragraph below and assuming it is true, then
In my mind there is a simple claim and answer. Because Andy accepted the
coils and then destroyed them, he owes you two new coils. Or the money for
them. And it should be your choice. Period. If he had sent them back to you,
that would be another matter.
Jabiru factory has nothing to do with it. They are in Australia, Andy is
not. The coils belonged to you , they dont exist now, so the person who made
them disappear is on the hook. In my opinion, he should fix it....NOW!
I chose not to say more about what I am thinking and feeling about the
forgoing. ;)
Now, as to the problems with other people having the coils, I would
disagree with you. However, if they have not opperated their engine in 4 years
and
are about to do a first flight, they need to send it back to the dealer for
inspection.....at their expense. Since you were a Rotax dealer, you know what
happens to a 912 that sits that long. And you also know the Rotax warrantee
would have expired three years ago, even with the extension!
Does it deserve some kind of Service Bulletin? I dont really know. Again,
it depends on how many engines are out there. Again, I would be surprised
if it is more than a handful. But if I were a Jabiru dealer, I would want to
track down every customer who got an engine that might have been affected.
(Hint, Hint!)
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 10/8/2007 10:36:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
TELEDYNMCS@aol.com writes:
As to whether or not Jabiru is covering things up, I have no way of knowing
because they will not communicate with me directly. I have not said that
Jabiru is covering things up at all. Andy told me a few days ago that he
destroyed and discarded the coils I sent back to him for warranty replacement,
apparently at the direction of Jabiru. I am told this was to save shipping costs.
Jabiru then proceeds to tell Andy that they are certain my coils failed due to
heat exposure without even testing them and as such, refuses to honor my
warranty. Despite Andy's insistence otherwise, Jabiru is holding firm, with
absolutely no evidence to back up their claim. You are free to draw your own
conclusions as to what is happening here. I am left wondering exactly how Jabiru
determines whether or not to warranty a coil if they don't inspect them? They
clearly don't want them sent back to the factory for inspection and
evaluation. Exactly how have they determined that mine failed due to heat exposure?
They've not seen my setup, the temps it runs at, nor have they inspected my
coils. Perhaps they use the "Magic 8-Ball" method?
As Dave G. says, Jabiru can avoid all the bad PR by replacing my coils or,
preferably, by providing me with a refund for the replacements I purchased,
even at this late date. I paid for that warranty with the price of my engine
and I am being denied coverage based on absolutely no evidence that my original
coils were killed from heat. Jabiru can and should issue a letter, or pr
eferably a Service Bulletin, letting folks know that there might be a few of
these coils floating around out there, how to identify them, and that they are
potentially hazardous. Only Jabiru knows for sure how many of them there are
and they aren't talking. That would be the smart thing to do, don't you think?
Those coils, if discovered, should also be replaced under warranty. Given the
high failure rate that the Chinese coils seem to have had, it stands to
reason that it is in Jabiru's best interests to get them off all engines ASAP.
I
think this is a reasonable approach and one that I've seen Rotax and other
engine manufacturers take on numerous issues that weren't nearly as serious as
ignition failure due to known bad coils. The gist of what I'm saying is
Jabiru has not acted in a professional manner regarding these coils. Flying
experimentals requires accepting a certain amount of risk, I'll grant you that.
However, managing that risk requires that manufacturers notify their customers
of potential problems so that they can be dealt with accordingly. Apparently,
that has not happened with us American redheaded stepchildren Jabiru owners.
It's all about professionalism, or lack thereof, in my eyes.
BTW, thanks for keeping the discussion polite and on topic.
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
Europa N245E - Flying
Message 12
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Andy,
I replied to an email from John before reading yours, so I will say to you
what I said to him. Remember this is my OPINION, but....
You personally owe him either the coils back, new coils or the money he pai
d
for coils. Since the coils have been destroyed, you either owe new coils o
r
the money. And it should be his choice.
On a better note, I am personally pleased that you guys did INDIVIDUALLY
follow up on any questionable coils on those early engines. You didnt let
me
down on that issue!!!
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 10/8/2007 3:21:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
andy@suncoastjabiru.com writes:
The absence of input from us as John=99s dealer makes it look like we
=99re
doing nothing, which isn=99t true! I=99ve put John=99s ca
se (again) to Jabiru and have
at least received a read-receipt for the email, so the issue is in their
hands, as to a warranty reimbursement for the coils and oil pressure sender
which were faulty. Personally, I don=99t think there=99s going
to be an argument
based on the facts given so I expect to let John know as soon as I have
confirmation.
The next point I want to clarify was the action taken at the time we knew
about the Leading GX coils from Jabiru. Each of the three USA dealers had a
number of =98affected=99 engines, and we were notified by Jabir
u with lists of
serial numbers. Jabiru wanted dealers to contact their customers direct and
resolve the issues, which is what we did. I know that Jabiru USA sent a le
tter to
their relevant customers and OEMs, and as the numbers of engines for us was
only about a dozen, we called everyone, told them about the problem,
discussed the situation in depth (so they could decide what to do: fly or n
ot fly,
etc), and let them know when they could expect replacements and how to retu
rn
the old coils. So, Jabiru decided (rightly or wrongly) to deal with the
situation through their Agents for a finite number of known customers rathe
r than
publishing a Service Bulletin. Jabiru knew they had an issue, were confident
of the range of affected engines, and decided on a course of action. There w
as
little point in us sending potentially faulty coils back to the other side
of the world, so we were instructed to destroy the coils to ensure they cou
ldn=99
t be re-sold. When John=99s coils came back, we cut off the leads and
binned
them.
Other countries have different legislative frameworks for airworthiness of
experimental aircraft, and so dealers in France and UK (probably others t
oo)
were bound to involve their respective governing bodies who in turn decided
that a country-specific service letter was appropriate. Not so in USA; we a
s
dealers felt we had the situation under complete control.
I have admitted both here and to John directly that I should have done
better to push his warranty case but after the first rejection by Jabiru (i
n a
phone call to their Principal) I let it slip. John had fixed the problem,
admittedly at his expense and was obviously pleased with the performance of
his
engine. The recent re-surfacing of the issue of coils here, together with J
ohn=99s
photos of (clearly) different pattern coils than those currently sold, has
left a few questions which I=99ve asked Jabiru to answer. Honestly, t
here=99s no
cover-up in my view; I think Jabiru made the wrong warranty decision
initially about John=99s coils and then I failed to attend to it by c
hasing again for
resolution. For me, the issue as to whether some =98known/faulty
=99 coils got
into engines after the Leading GX phase is of course an important one and i
t
needs to be investigated and answered and again, I have sought these answer
s. I
certainly haven=99t experienced any such issues with engines we
=99ve sold,
except of course in John=99s isolated case, and I haven=99t hea
rd of others from any
other dealership; believe me, we=99d have told each other had this com
e to
light
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