---------------------------------------------------------- JabiruEngine-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/08/07: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:09 AM - Re: Coils and Service Bulletins (Kayberg@AOL.COM) 2. 04:27 AM - Re: Jabiru Coils (Kayberg@AOL.COM) 3. 06:28 AM - Re: Coils and Service Bulletins (Dave G.) 4. 06:37 AM - Re: Jabiru Coils (Dave G.) 5. 07:35 AM - Coils (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com) 6. 12:19 PM - Re: Coils (Andy Silvester) 7. 12:36 PM - Notification of Jabiru Service Bulletin JSB018-1 () 8. 01:04 PM - Re: Coils (Rob) 9. 01:36 PM - Re: Coils (Andy Silvester) 10. 01:36 PM - Re: Coils (rlaviation@aol.com) 11. 05:19 PM - Re: Coils (Kayberg@aol.com) 12. 05:41 PM - Re: Coils (Kayberg@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:03 AM PST US From: Kayberg@AOL.COM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Coils and Service Bulletins In a message dated 10/7/2007 11:04:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, d.goddard@ns .sympatico.ca writes: Your points are all fine as far as they go. How do you defend the fact that Jabiru has not honoured or denied their warranty. They've not responded at all? As I and others have noted, the face of Jabiru in the USA is its three dealers. In the last week or so, two of the three dealers have responded to the thread, on one two occasions. If memory serves, they have also previously responded. Andy admitted to being the cause of a delayed response because he had the coils in question and apologized. So Jabiru has responded. One other obscured point is that there is no time rush here. The engine in question is well out of warrantee and is currently being flown A LOT!! Doug ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:27:06 AM PST US From: Kayberg@AOL.COM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru Coils In a message dated 10/3/2007 5:50:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca writes: Thanks for a somewhat long but very good tale of your trials with Jabiru. I had my own issues with the CDN Jabiru dealer, and had decided against Jabiru based on their actions. I'm glad they never got my check I suppose they might be also. It took a long time for the Japanese to build a truly professional dealer network for their products, and that's a large market. In the case of experimental aircraft engines it may never happen. I can't comment on the CDN dealer, but my understanding is that before Jabiru had it's current 3 dealers in the USA, there was much unhappyness with the single dealer at the time. Your point about achieving a good dealer network is a good one. My understanding is that the early Jab engines had a number of significant problems. A friend of mine was importing a Canadian two-stoke engine that was very bad. He had a whole workbench full of bad engines and parts. He dropped the line and told me if I ever tried something like that I was crazy!!! Now several years later that same manufacturer is suppling engines for the Mosquito ultralight helicopter. They claimed the engine was working fine. Some of us remember the early Japanese cars. Hardly the industry leaders they are today. My opinion is that the current Jabiru dealers in the USA are excellent. The volume of sales they are achieving makes it easy to service their customers well. Of course there are occasional exceptions. Doug ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:46 AM PST US From: "Dave G." Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Coils and Service Bulletins OK, as I understand things the dealer(s) have SOLD him new coils, which appear to be working out ok. It really still does not address the original problem that the warranty has not been observed. The fact that the engine is now out of warranty and is working well is not relevant. The responses I've seen didn't really indicate that the dealer felt it was their role to adjudicate claims.In fact, It appears that one of the dealers did recieve a response from Jabiru that they would not honour the warranty, the dealer appears to disagree with their stand. I don't know if there is another batch of "bad" coils out there, it's likely that only the factory does. It looks to me like you are encouraging John to just accept things as they are, having bought replacements for apparently defective and warrantied parts and walk away. I likely would, but I applaud his tenacity. ---- Original Message ----- From: Kayberg@aol.com To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 8:06 AM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Coils and Service Bulletins In a message dated 10/7/2007 11:04:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca writes: Your points are all fine as far as they go. How do you defend the fact that Jabiru has not honoured or denied their warranty. They've not responded at all? As I and others have noted, the face of Jabiru in the USA is its three dealers. In the last week or so, two of the three dealers have responded to the thread, on one two occasions. If memory serves, they have also previously responded. Andy admitted to being the cause of a delayed response because he had the coils in question and apologized. So Jabiru has responded. One other obscured point is that there is no time rush here. The engine in question is well out of warrantee and is currently being flown A LOT!! Doug ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's new a ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:50 AM PST US From: "Dave G." Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru Coils I won't comment on the CDN dealer either, I assume they are reliable enough to please their customers. I'm not sure what happened in my case. Having more than one would be nice but we are a small market. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kayberg@aol.com To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 8:24 AM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru Coils In a message dated 10/3/2007 5:50:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca writes: I can't comment on the CDN dealer, but my understanding is that before Jabiru had it's current 3 dealers in the USA, there was much unhappyness with the single dealer at the time. Your point about achieving a good dealer network is a good one. My understanding is that the early Jab engines had a number of significant problems. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:46 AM PST US From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Coils In a message dated 10/8/2007 2:59:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Kayberg@AOL.COM writes: 1) "Recomended Action" came from DEALERS in FRANCE. Even thought their suggestion is "Do not fly", that is their opinion, and would not necessarily be mine, UNLESS I had a cowled engine with no airflow over the coils. 2) Applying my logic and the posts of a couple others, by serial number and by the thoughts of others, you didnt have the "leading GX coils"! 3) As I noted before, coils tend to fail early in their service live if they have a defect. You mention that one failed on start-up. That is to be very occasionally expected. 4) The failure in flight of a coil on a tightly cowled installation COULD have been related to overheating. 5) As I mentioned before, the rpm drop you experienced could have been reduced by switching off the offending coil.....unless that was not the sole cause of the rpm drop. 6) Lastly, I think your assumptions are incorrect as to the significance of Jabiru silence. You presume they are trying to hide something. But it could be that all problems have been corrected. You assume there are people flying with "bad coils". But logic would say if they are still flying after 4 years of service, maybe the coils were not that bad after all. Hello again Doug, Thanks for your input, but I think you're missing some key points here. In regard you your points, in order, here's what you are missing: #1, these engines with these bad coils were also sold in the USA. Why no dealer letter here? I had never heard of this issue prior to being pointed to the French Jabiru dealer's letter by a Europa owner. I have been told that this issue was discussed in "Jabbachat" in 2002 or 2003, 2-3 years before I bought my engine. So, I'm supposed to wade through hundreds of posts on their chat forum from 5 years ago to find out about this potential problem? Isn't that what Service Bulletins are for? #2, No, I clearly did not have "Leading GX" coils, as I've said repeatedly. Again, mine did not have that notation. However, it has come to my attention from another Jab owner who has learned that Jabiru sourced a batch of cheap, Chinese knock-off coils that came after the "Leading GX" and "Leading GC" coils, but before the TEK coils currently in use. These too, apparently had a high failure rate. I think this is what came on my engine, although I'm still trying to verify that as fact. I also think this is the "black glossy" coil that is referred to in the French Jabiru dealer letter. #3 & #4, I'm aware of that. However, that still does not explain why the first coil was not covered under my warranty. It also does not explain why my current coils have been running for 90 and 120 hours respectively with no problems. If I had a problem with coil cooling in my set up it stands to reason that the current coils would have also failed due to heat, doesn't it? That has not occurred. I followed the Jabiru installation guidelines to the letter, including verifying the installation of phenolic washers behind the coils, which were installed at the factory and were installed behind the replacement coils I purchased. I also installed the cooling tubes to direct air onto the coils as directed by Jabiru in their installation guide. Nothing in my cooling set up has changed since before I first ran the engine, except for the installation of a larger oil cooler and that is not anywhere near the coils. Thus, through simple logic you can deduce that heat was not the issue that caused my original coils to fail. If it were, subsequent coils installed would have also failed. Of course, now we will never know because my coils were destroyed by the dealer and were never sent to Jabiru for inspection. All I have to rely on is pictures now. #5, I did that immediately to see what the problem was when the engine began to run rough and lost RPM's. Turning off the bad ignition did not help the rough running or the RPM drop. Think about how the engine runs on one side doing a mag check. That is what it was like, only at higher RPM's. Replacing the coil with a good one fixed the problem and my engine has been running like a sewing machine ever since I purchased the TEK coils and installed them at 0 hours and 30 hours respectively. #6, I would imagine that anyone who has been flying a Jabiru engine for 4 years that came with any of these known bad coils has already replaced them. My concern is for the guy who has an engine that was produced along about the same time as mine that potentially has these coils installed that has not yet flown. There are bound to be some of those out there. If you were one of these people, would you not want to know that you have coils on your engine that have a high probability to fail on your first flight? I sure would. As to whether or not Jabiru is covering things up, I have no way of knowing because they will not communicate with me directly. I have not said that Jabiru is covering things up at all. Andy told me a few days ago that he destroyed and discarded the coils I sent back to him for warranty replacement, apparently at the direction of Jabiru. I am told this was to save shipping costs. Jabiru then proceeds to tell Andy that they are certain my coils failed due to heat exposure without even testing them and as such, refuses to honor my warranty. Despite Andy's insistence otherwise, Jabiru is holding firm, with absolutely no evidence to back up their claim. You are free to draw your own conclusions as to what is happening here. I am left wondering exactly how Jabiru determines whether or not to warranty a coil if they don't inspect them? They clearly don't want them sent back to the factory for inspection and evaluation. Exactly how have they determined that mine failed due to heat exposure? They've not seen my setup, the temps it runs at, nor have they inspected my coils. Perhaps they use the "Magic 8-Ball" method? As Dave G. says, Jabiru can avoid all the bad PR by replacing my coils or, preferably, by providing me with a refund for the replacements I purchased, even at this late date. I paid for that warranty with the price of my engine and I am being denied coverage based on absolutely no evidence that my original coils were killed from heat. Jabiru can and should issue a letter, or preferably a Service Bulletin, letting folks know that there might be a few of these coils floating around out there, how to identify them, and that they are potentially hazardous. Only Jabiru knows for sure how many of them there are and they aren't talking. That would be the smart thing to do, don't you think? Those coils, if discovered, should also be replaced under warranty. Given the high failure rate that the Chinese coils seem to have had, it stands to reason that it is in Jabiru's best interests to get them off all engines ASAP. I think this is a reasonable approach and one that I've seen Rotax and other engine manufacturers take on numerous issues that weren't nearly as serious as ignition failure due to known bad coils. The gist of what I'm saying is Jabiru has not acted in a professional manner regarding these coils. Flying experimentals requires accepting a certain amount of risk, I'll grant you that. However, managing that risk requires that manufacturers notify their customers of potential problems so that they can be dealt with accordingly. Apparently, that has not happened with us American redheaded stepchildren Jabiru owners. It's all about professionalism, or lack thereof, in my eyes. BTW, thanks for keeping the discussion polite and on topic. John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) Europa N245E - Flying ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:19:15 PM PST US From: "Andy Silvester" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Coils The absence of input from us as John's dealer makes it look like we're doing nothing, which isn't true! I've put John's case (again) to Jabiru and have at least received a read-receipt for the email, so the issue is in their hands, as to a warranty reimbursement for the coils and oil pressure sender which were faulty. Personally, I don't think there's going to be an argument based on the facts given so I expect to let John know as soon as I have confirmation. The next point I want to clarify was the action taken at the time we knew about the Leading GX coils from Jabiru. Each of the three USA dealers had a number of 'affected' engines, and we were notified by Jabiru with lists of serial numbers. Jabiru wanted dealers to contact their customers direct and resolve the issues, which is what we did. I know that Jabiru USA sent a letter to their relevant customers and OEMs, and as the numbers of engines for us was only about a dozen, we called everyone, told them about the problem, discussed the situation in depth (so they could decide what to do: fly or not fly, etc), and let them know when they could expect replacements and how to return the old coils. So, Jabiru decided (rightly or wrongly) to deal with the situation through their Agents for a finite number of known customers rather than publishing a Service Bulletin. Jabiru knew they had an issue, were confident of the range of affected engines, and decided on a course of action. There was little point in us sending potentially faulty coils back to the other side of the world, so we were instructed to destroy the coils to ensure they couldn't be re-sold. When John's coils came back, we cut off the leads and binned them. Other countries have different legislative frameworks for airworthiness of experimental aircraft, and so dealers in France and UK (probably others too) were bound to involve their respective governing bodies who in turn decided that a country-specific service letter was appropriate. Not so in USA; we as dealers felt we had the situation under complete control. I have admitted both here and to John directly that I should have done better to push his warranty case but after the first rejection by Jabiru (in a phone call to their Principal) I let it slip. John had fixed the problem, admittedly at his expense and was obviously pleased with the performance of his engine. The recent re-surfacing of the issue of coils here, together with John's photos of (clearly) different pattern coils than those currently sold, has left a few questions which I've asked Jabiru to answer. Honestly, there's no cover-up in my view; I think Jabiru made the wrong warranty decision initially about John's coils and then I failed to attend to it by chasing again for resolution. For me, the issue as to whether some 'known/faulty' coils got into engines after the Leading GX phase is of course an important one and it needs to be investigated and answered and again, I have sought these answers. I certainly haven't experienced any such issues with engines we've sold, except of course in John's isolated case, and I haven't heard of others from any other dealership; believe me, we'd have told each other had this come to light. I hope this fills-in some gaps so we see a few less sparks flying (pun totally intended). I'll keep the readership informed about anything relevant. Andy Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. 39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542 Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246 www.suncoastjabiru.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:36:43 PM PST US From: Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Notification of Jabiru Service Bulletin JSB018-1 All, Please be aware of revised information from Jabiru about engine carburetion and tuning. See www.jabiru.net.au for more details. I'll be happy to try to answer related questions arising. Andy Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. 39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542 Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246 www.suncoastjabiru.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:04:54 PM PST US From: "Rob" Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Coils Hey guys, I have a question: Isn't their a certified version of the Jab engine being used in Aussie land. I was told long ago that the engine had been certified Down Under and was used in a lot of their flight schools as a trainer. If that is the case, does Jabiru have to issue AD's on those engines just as the FAA requires on certified engines here in the USA? I wonder if any of those shiny black coils were ever put on the certified version of the Jabiru engine? Just a thought. (Before someone jumps on me I realize that our engines here in the USA are not the certified ones but I was also told that the Parts etc for the engines are basically the same) Rob TELEDYNMCS@aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 10/8/2007 2:59:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >Kayberg@AOL.COM writes: > >1) "Recomended Action" came from DEALERS in FRANCE. Even thought their >suggestion is "Do not fly", that is their opinion, and would not >necessarily be > >mine, UNLESS I had a cowled engine with no airflow over the coils. > >2) Applying my logic and the posts of a couple others, by serial number >and >by the thoughts of others, you didnt have the "leading GX coils"! > >3) As I noted before, coils tend to fail early in their service live if >they have a defect. You mention that one failed on start-up. That is to >be >very occasionally expected. > >4) The failure in flight of a coil on a tightly cowled installation COULD >have been related to overheating. > >5) As I mentioned before, the rpm drop you experienced could have been >reduced by switching off the offending coil.....unless that was not the sole > cause > >of the rpm drop. > >6) Lastly, I think your assumptions are incorrect as to the significance of >Jabiru silence. You presume they are trying to hide something. But it >could > >be that all problems have been corrected. You assume there are people >flying with "bad coils". But logic would say if they are still flying >after 4 > >years of service, maybe the coils were not that bad after all. > > >Hello again Doug, > >Thanks for your input, but I think you're missing some key points here. > >In regard you your points, in order, here's what you are missing: > >#1, these engines with these bad coils were also sold in the USA. Why no >dealer letter here? I had never heard of this issue prior to being pointed to >the French Jabiru dealer's letter by a Europa owner. I have been told that this >issue was discussed in "Jabbachat" in 2002 or 2003, 2-3 years before I >bought my engine. So, I'm supposed to wade through hundreds of posts on their chat >forum from 5 years ago to find out about this potential problem? Isn't that >what Service Bulletins are for? > >#2, No, I clearly did not have "Leading GX" coils, as I've said repeatedly. >Again, mine did not have that notation. However, it has come to my attention >from another Jab owner who has learned that Jabiru sourced a batch of cheap, >Chinese knock-off coils that came after the "Leading GX" and "Leading GC" >coils, but before the TEK coils currently in use. These too, apparently had a >high failure rate. I think this is what came on my engine, although I'm still >trying to verify that as fact. I also think this is the "black glossy" coil >that is referred to in the French Jabiru dealer letter. > >#3 & #4, I'm aware of that. However, that still does not explain why the >first coil was not covered under my warranty. It also does not explain why my >current coils have been running for 90 and 120 hours respectively with no >problems. If I had a problem with coil cooling in my set up it stands to reason >that the current coils would have also failed due to heat, doesn't it? That has >not occurred. I followed the Jabiru installation guidelines to the letter, >including verifying the installation of phenolic washers behind the coils, >which were installed at the factory and were installed behind the replacement >coils I purchased. I also installed the cooling tubes to direct air onto the >coils as directed by Jabiru in their installation guide. Nothing in my cooling >set up has changed since before I first ran the engine, except for the >installation of a larger oil cooler and that is not anywhere near the coils. Thus, >through simple logic you can deduce that heat was not the issue that caused >my original coils to fail. If it were, subsequent coils installed would have >also failed. Of course, now we will never know because my coils were destroyed >by the dealer and were never sent to Jabiru for inspection. All I have to >rely on is pictures now. > >#5, I did that immediately to see what the problem was when the engine began >to run rough and lost RPM's. Turning off the bad ignition did not help the >rough running or the RPM drop. Think about how the engine runs on one side >doing a mag check. That is what it was like, only at higher RPM's. Replacing the >coil with a good one fixed the problem and my engine has been running like a >sewing machine ever since I purchased the TEK coils and installed them at 0 >hours and 30 hours respectively. > >#6, I would imagine that anyone who has been flying a Jabiru engine for 4 >years that came with any of these known bad coils has already replaced them. >My concern is for the guy who has an engine that was produced along about the >same time as mine that potentially has these coils installed that has not yet >flown. There are bound to be some of those out there. If you were one of >these people, would you not want to know that you have coils on your engine that >have a high probability to fail on your first flight? I sure would. > >As to whether or not Jabiru is covering things up, I have no way of knowing >because they will not communicate with me directly. I have not said that >Jabiru is covering things up at all. Andy told me a few days ago that he >destroyed and discarded the coils I sent back to him for warranty replacement, >apparently at the direction of Jabiru. I am told this was to save shipping costs. >Jabiru then proceeds to tell Andy that they are certain my coils failed due to >heat exposure without even testing them and as such, refuses to honor my >warranty. Despite Andy's insistence otherwise, Jabiru is holding firm, with >absolutely no evidence to back up their claim. You are free to draw your own >conclusions as to what is happening here. I am left wondering exactly how Jabiru >determines whether or not to warranty a coil if they don't inspect them? They >clearly don't want them sent back to the factory for inspection and >evaluation. Exactly how have they determined that mine failed due to heat exposure? >They've not seen my setup, the temps it runs at, nor have they inspected my >coils. Perhaps they use the "Magic 8-Ball" method? > >As Dave G. says, Jabiru can avoid all the bad PR by replacing my coils or, >preferably, by providing me with a refund for the replacements I purchased, >even at this late date. I paid for that warranty with the price of my engine and > I am being denied coverage based on absolutely no evidence that my original >coils were killed from heat. Jabiru can and should issue a letter, or >preferably a Service Bulletin, letting folks know that there might be a few of >these coils floating around out there, how to identify them, and that they are >potentially hazardous. Only Jabiru knows for sure how many of them there are >and they aren't talking. That would be the smart thing to do, don't you think? >Those coils, if discovered, should also be replaced under warranty. Given the >high failure rate that the Chinese coils seem to have had, it stands to >reason that it is in Jabiru's best interests to get them off all engines ASAP. I >think this is a reasonable approach and one that I've seen Rotax and other >engine manufacturers take on numerous issues that weren't nearly as serious as >ignition failure due to known bad coils. The gist of what I'm saying is >Jabiru has not acted in a professional manner regarding these coils. Flying >experimentals requires accepting a certain amount of risk, I'll grant you that. >However, managing that risk requires that manufacturers notify their customers >of potential problems so that they can be dealt with accordingly. Apparently, >that has not happened with us American redheaded stepchildren Jabiru owners. >It's all about professionalism, or lack thereof, in my eyes. > >BTW, thanks for keeping the discussion polite and on topic. > >John Lawton >Whitwell, TN (TN89) >Europa N245E - Flying > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:36:29 PM PST US From: "Andy Silvester" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Coils Rob, Yes, there is a 'type certified' 2200 engine used in Jabiru's Genearl-Aviation version of it's trainer, but the 3300 engine does not (as far as I know) carry this certification. Also, the certification is under the Aussie CASA (not FAA) requirements, so there's not a 100% compliance with (say) FAA/FAR Part 23. I'm sure there would have been some potentially faulty coils fitted to a few of their factory aircraft and I'm equally sure they dealt with it under the requirements of their certification. Andy Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. 39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542 Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246 www.suncoastjabiru.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 9:04 PM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Coils Hey guys, I have a question: Isn't their a certified version of the Jab engine being used in Aussie land. I was told long ago that the engine had been certified Down Under and was used in a lot of their flight schools as a trainer. If that is the case, does Jabiru have to issue AD's on those engines just as the FAA requires on certified engines here in the USA? I wonder if any of those shiny black coils were ever put on the certified version of the Jabiru engine? Just a thought. (Before someone jumps on me I realize that our engines here in the USA are not the certified ones but I was also told that the Parts etc for the engines are basically the same) Rob TELEDYNMCS@aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 10/8/2007 2:59:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >Kayberg@AOL.COM writes: > >1) "Recomended Action" came from DEALERS in FRANCE. Even thought their >suggestion is "Do not fly", that is their opinion, and would not >necessarily be > >mine, UNLESS I had a cowled engine with no airflow over the coils. > >2) Applying my logic and the posts of a couple others, by serial number >and >by the thoughts of others, you didnt have the "leading GX coils"! > >3) As I noted before, coils tend to fail early in their service live if >they have a defect. You mention that one failed on start-up. That is to >be >very occasionally expected. > >4) The failure in flight of a coil on a tightly cowled installation COULD >have been related to overheating. > >5) As I mentioned before, the rpm drop you experienced could have been >reduced by switching off the offending coil.....unless that was not the sole > cause > >of the rpm drop. > >6) Lastly, I think your assumptions are incorrect as to the significance of >Jabiru silence. You presume they are trying to hide something. But it >could > >be that all problems have been corrected. You assume there are people >flying with "bad coils". But logic would say if they are still flying >after 4 > >years of service, maybe the coils were not that bad after all. > > >Hello again Doug, > >Thanks for your input, but I think you're missing some key points here. > >In regard you your points, in order, here's what you are missing: > >#1, these engines with these bad coils were also sold in the USA. Why no >dealer letter here? I had never heard of this issue prior to being pointed to >the French Jabiru dealer's letter by a Europa owner. I have been told that this >issue was discussed in "Jabbachat" in 2002 or 2003, 2-3 years before I >bought my engine. So, I'm supposed to wade through hundreds of posts on their chat >forum from 5 years ago to find out about this potential problem? Isn't that >what Service Bulletins are for? > >#2, No, I clearly did not have "Leading GX" coils, as I've said repeatedly. >Again, mine did not have that notation. However, it has come to my attention >from another Jab owner who has learned that Jabiru sourced a batch of cheap, >Chinese knock-off coils that came after the "Leading GX" and "Leading GC" >coils, but before the TEK coils currently in use. These too, apparently had a >high failure rate. I think this is what came on my engine, although I'm still >trying to verify that as fact. I also think this is the "black glossy" coil >that is referred to in the French Jabiru dealer letter. > >#3 & #4, I'm aware of that. However, that still does not explain why the >first coil was not covered under my warranty. It also does not explain why my >current coils have been running for 90 and 120 hours respectively with no >problems. If I had a problem with coil cooling in my set up it stands to reason >that the current coils would have also failed due to heat, doesn't it? That has >not occurred. I followed the Jabiru installation guidelines to the letter, >including verifying the installation of phenolic washers behind the coils, >which were installed at the factory and were installed behind the replacement >coils I purchased. I also installed the cooling tubes to direct air onto the >coils as directed by Jabiru in their installation guide. Nothing in my cooling >set up has changed since before I first ran the engine, except for the >installation of a larger oil cooler and that is not anywhere near the coils. Thus, >through simple logic you can deduce that heat was not the issue that caused >my original coils to fail. If it were, subsequent coils installed would have >also failed. Of course, now we will never know because my coils were destroyed >by the dealer and were never sent to Jabiru for inspection. All I have to >rely on is pictures now. > >#5, I did that immediately to see what the problem was when the engine began >to run rough and lost RPM's. Turning off the bad ignition did not help the >rough running or the RPM drop. Think about how the engine runs on one side >doing a mag check. That is what it was like, only at higher RPM's. Replacing the >coil with a good one fixed the problem and my engine has been running like a >sewing machine ever since I purchased the TEK coils and installed them at 0 >hours and 30 hours respectively. > >#6, I would imagine that anyone who has been flying a Jabiru engine for 4 >years that came with any of these known bad coils has already replaced them. >My concern is for the guy who has an engine that was produced along about the >same time as mine that potentially has these coils installed that has not yet >flown. There are bound to be some of those out there. If you were one of >these people, would you not want to know that you have coils on your engine that >have a high probability to fail on your first flight? I sure would. > >As to whether or not Jabiru is covering things up, I have no way of knowing >because they will not communicate with me directly. I have not said that >Jabiru is covering things up at all. Andy told me a few days ago that he >destroyed and discarded the coils I sent back to him for warranty replacement, >apparently at the direction of Jabiru. I am told this was to save shipping costs. >Jabiru then proceeds to tell Andy that they are certain my coils failed due to >heat exposure without even testing them and as such, refuses to honor my >warranty. Despite Andy's insistence otherwise, Jabiru is holding firm, with >absolutely no evidence to back up their claim. You are free to draw your own >conclusions as to what is happening here. I am left wondering exactly how Jabiru >determines whether or not to warranty a coil if they don't inspect them? They >clearly don't want them sent back to the factory for inspection and >evaluation. Exactly how have they determined that mine failed due to heat exposure? >They've not seen my setup, the temps it runs at, nor have they inspected my >coils. Perhaps they use the "Magic 8-Ball" method? > >As Dave G. says, Jabiru can avoid all the bad PR by replacing my coils or, >preferably, by providing me with a refund for the replacements I purchased, >even at this late date. I paid for that warranty with the price of my engine and > I am being denied coverage based on absolutely no evidence that my original >coils were killed from heat. Jabiru can and should issue a letter, or >preferably a Service Bulletin, letting folks know that there might be a few of >these coils floating around out there, how to identify them, and that they are >potentially hazardous. Only Jabiru knows for sure how many of them there are >and they aren't talking. That would be the smart thing to do, don't you think? >Those coils, if discovered, should also be replaced under warranty. Given the >high failure rate that the Chinese coils seem to have had, it stands to >reason that it is in Jabiru's best interests to get them off all engines ASAP. I >think this is a reasonable approach and one that I've seen Rotax and other >engine manufacturers take on numerous issues that weren't nearly as serious as >ignition failure due to known bad coils. The gist of what I'm saying is >Jabiru has not acted in a professional manner regarding these coils. Flying >experimentals requires accepting a certain amount of risk, I'll grant you that. >However, managing that risk requires that manufacturers notify their customers >of potential problems so that they can be dealt with accordingly. Apparently, >that has not happened with us American redheaded stepchildren Jabiru owners. >It's all about professionalism, or lack thereof, in my eyes. > >BTW, thanks for keeping the discussion polite and on topic. > >John Lawton >Whitwell, TN (TN89) >Europa N245E - Flying > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:36:44 PM PST US Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Coils From: rlaviation@aol.com Hello Andy, =C2- Received this email...not quite sure what this is all about. =C2- Was it sent by mistake? =C2- Please do not hesitate to contact me...very interested in the present status of territories of the US distributors...I have heard many conflicting sugge stions. =C2- Russell Lepre' 813-690-1916 -----Original Message----- From: Andy Silvester Sent: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 3:17 pm Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Coils The absence of input from us as John=99s dealer makes it look like we =99re doing nothing, which isn=99t true! I=99ve put John =99s case (again) to Jabiru and have at least received a read-receipt for the email, so the issue is in their hands, as to a warranty reimbursemen t for the coils and oil pressure sender which were faulty. Personally, I don =99t think there=99s going to be an argument based on the facts given so I expect to let John know as soon as I have confirmation. =C2- The next point I want to clarify was the action taken at the time we knew ab out the Leading GX coils from Jabiru. Each of the three USA dealers had a nu mber of =98affected=99 engines, and we were notified by Jabiru w ith lists of serial numbers. Jabiru wanted dealers to contact their customer s direct and resolve the issues, which is what we did. I know that Jabiru US A sent a letter to their relevant customers and OEMs, and as the numbers of engines for us was only about a dozen, we called everyone, told them about t he problem, discussed the situation in depth (so they could decide what to d o: fly or not fly, etc), and let them know when they could expect replacemen ts and how to return the old coils. So, Jabiru decided (rightly or wrongly) to deal with the situation through their Agents for a finite number of known customers rather than publishing a Service Bulletin. Jabiru knew they had a n issue, were confident of the range of affected engines, and decided on a c ourse of action. There was little point in us sending potentially faulty coi ls back to the other side of the world, so we were instructed to destroy the coils to ensure they couldn=99t be re-sold. When John=99s coils came back, we cut off the leads and binned them. Other countries have different legislative frameworks for airworthiness of e xperimental aircraft, and so dealers in France and UK (probably others too) were bound to involve their respective governing bodies who in turn decided that a country-specific service letter was appropriate. Not so in USA; we as dealers felt we had the situation under complete control. =C2- I have admitted both here and to John directly that I should have done bette r to push his warranty case but after the first rejection by Jabiru (in a ph one call to their Principal) I let it slip. John had fixed the problem, admi ttedly at his expense and was obviously pleased with the performance of his engine. The recent re-surfacing of the issue of coils here, together with Jo hn=99s photos of (clearly) different pattern coils than those currentl y sold, has left a few questions which I=99ve asked Jabiru to answer. Honestly, there=99s no cover-up in my view; I think Jabiru made the wr ong warranty decision initially about John=99s coils and then I failed to attend to it by chasing again for resolution. For me, the issue as to wh ether some =98known/faulty=99 coils got into engines after the L eading GX phase is of course an important one and it needs to be investigate d and answered and again, I have sought these answers. I certainly haven =99t experienced any such issues with engines we=99ve sold, except of course in John=99s isolated case, and I haven=99t heard of ot hers from any other dealership; believe me, we=99d have told each othe r had this come to light. =C2- I hope this fills-in some gaps so we see a few less sparks flying (pun total ly intended). I=99ll keep the readership informed about anything relev ant. =C2- Andy Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. 39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542 Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246 www.suncoastjabiru.com =C2- -= - The JabiruEngine-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List -======================== -= - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content now also available via the Web Forums! -= --> http://forums.matronics.com -======================== ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http ://mail.aol.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:00 PM PST US From: Kayberg@aol.com Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Coils John, As often happens in these types of discussions, some very key information that was not previously known comes to light. We did not know that Andy had communicated with you. And I am a little stunned by that information. Because of what you say in the paragraph below and assuming it is true, then In my mind there is a simple claim and answer. Because Andy accepted the coils and then destroyed them, he owes you two new coils. Or the money for them. And it should be your choice. Period. If he had sent them back to you, that would be another matter. Jabiru factory has nothing to do with it. They are in Australia, Andy is not. The coils belonged to you , they dont exist now, so the person who made them disappear is on the hook. In my opinion, he should fix it....NOW! I chose not to say more about what I am thinking and feeling about the forgoing. ;) Now, as to the problems with other people having the coils, I would disagree with you. However, if they have not opperated their engine in 4 years and are about to do a first flight, they need to send it back to the dealer for inspection.....at their expense. Since you were a Rotax dealer, you know what happens to a 912 that sits that long. And you also know the Rotax warrantee would have expired three years ago, even with the extension! Does it deserve some kind of Service Bulletin? I dont really know. Again, it depends on how many engines are out there. Again, I would be surprised if it is more than a handful. But if I were a Jabiru dealer, I would want to track down every customer who got an engine that might have been affected. (Hint, Hint!) Doug Koenigsberg In a message dated 10/8/2007 10:36:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TELEDYNMCS@aol.com writes: As to whether or not Jabiru is covering things up, I have no way of knowing because they will not communicate with me directly. I have not said that Jabiru is covering things up at all. Andy told me a few days ago that he destroyed and discarded the coils I sent back to him for warranty replacement, apparently at the direction of Jabiru. I am told this was to save shipping costs. Jabiru then proceeds to tell Andy that they are certain my coils failed due to heat exposure without even testing them and as such, refuses to honor my warranty. Despite Andy's insistence otherwise, Jabiru is holding firm, with absolutely no evidence to back up their claim. You are free to draw your own conclusions as to what is happening here. I am left wondering exactly how Jabiru determines whether or not to warranty a coil if they don't inspect them? They clearly don't want them sent back to the factory for inspection and evaluation. Exactly how have they determined that mine failed due to heat exposure? They've not seen my setup, the temps it runs at, nor have they inspected my coils. Perhaps they use the "Magic 8-Ball" method? As Dave G. says, Jabiru can avoid all the bad PR by replacing my coils or, preferably, by providing me with a refund for the replacements I purchased, even at this late date. I paid for that warranty with the price of my engine and I am being denied coverage based on absolutely no evidence that my original coils were killed from heat. Jabiru can and should issue a letter, or pr eferably a Service Bulletin, letting folks know that there might be a few of these coils floating around out there, how to identify them, and that they are potentially hazardous. Only Jabiru knows for sure how many of them there are and they aren't talking. That would be the smart thing to do, don't you think? Those coils, if discovered, should also be replaced under warranty. Given the high failure rate that the Chinese coils seem to have had, it stands to reason that it is in Jabiru's best interests to get them off all engines ASAP. I think this is a reasonable approach and one that I've seen Rotax and other engine manufacturers take on numerous issues that weren't nearly as serious as ignition failure due to known bad coils. The gist of what I'm saying is Jabiru has not acted in a professional manner regarding these coils. Flying experimentals requires accepting a certain amount of risk, I'll grant you that. However, managing that risk requires that manufacturers notify their customers of potential problems so that they can be dealt with accordingly. Apparently, that has not happened with us American redheaded stepchildren Jabiru owners. It's all about professionalism, or lack thereof, in my eyes. BTW, thanks for keeping the discussion polite and on topic. John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) Europa N245E - Flying ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:41:18 PM PST US From: Kayberg@aol.com Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Coils Andy, I replied to an email from John before reading yours, so I will say to you what I said to him. Remember this is my OPINION, but.... You personally owe him either the coils back, new coils or the money he pai d for coils. Since the coils have been destroyed, you either owe new coils o r the money. And it should be his choice. On a better note, I am personally pleased that you guys did INDIVIDUALLY follow up on any questionable coils on those early engines. You didnt let me down on that issue!!! Doug Koenigsberg In a message dated 10/8/2007 3:21:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, andy@suncoastjabiru.com writes: The absence of input from us as John=99s dealer makes it look like we =99re doing nothing, which isn=99t true! I=99ve put John=99s ca se (again) to Jabiru and have at least received a read-receipt for the email, so the issue is in their hands, as to a warranty reimbursement for the coils and oil pressure sender which were faulty. Personally, I don=99t think there=99s going to be an argument based on the facts given so I expect to let John know as soon as I have confirmation. The next point I want to clarify was the action taken at the time we knew about the Leading GX coils from Jabiru. Each of the three USA dealers had a number of =98affected=99 engines, and we were notified by Jabir u with lists of serial numbers. Jabiru wanted dealers to contact their customers direct and resolve the issues, which is what we did. I know that Jabiru USA sent a le tter to their relevant customers and OEMs, and as the numbers of engines for us was only about a dozen, we called everyone, told them about the problem, discussed the situation in depth (so they could decide what to do: fly or n ot fly, etc), and let them know when they could expect replacements and how to retu rn the old coils. So, Jabiru decided (rightly or wrongly) to deal with the situation through their Agents for a finite number of known customers rathe r than publishing a Service Bulletin. Jabiru knew they had an issue, were confident of the range of affected engines, and decided on a course of action. There w as little point in us sending potentially faulty coils back to the other side of the world, so we were instructed to destroy the coils to ensure they cou ldn=99 t be re-sold. When John=99s coils came back, we cut off the leads and binned them. Other countries have different legislative frameworks for airworthiness of experimental aircraft, and so dealers in France and UK (probably others t oo) were bound to involve their respective governing bodies who in turn decided that a country-specific service letter was appropriate. Not so in USA; we a s dealers felt we had the situation under complete control. I have admitted both here and to John directly that I should have done better to push his warranty case but after the first rejection by Jabiru (i n a phone call to their Principal) I let it slip. John had fixed the problem, admittedly at his expense and was obviously pleased with the performance of his engine. The recent re-surfacing of the issue of coils here, together with J ohn=99s photos of (clearly) different pattern coils than those currently sold, has left a few questions which I=99ve asked Jabiru to answer. Honestly, t here=99s no cover-up in my view; I think Jabiru made the wrong warranty decision initially about John=99s coils and then I failed to attend to it by c hasing again for resolution. For me, the issue as to whether some =98known/faulty =99 coils got into engines after the Leading GX phase is of course an important one and i t needs to be investigated and answered and again, I have sought these answer s. I certainly haven=99t experienced any such issues with engines we =99ve sold, except of course in John=99s isolated case, and I haven=99t hea rd of others from any other dealership; believe me, we=99d have told each other had this com e to light ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message jabiruengine-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/JabiruEngine-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/jabiruengine-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/jabiruengine-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.