Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:12 AM - Re: Do You Need All 6 EGT's?? (Lynn Matteson)
2. 04:27 AM - Re: Do You Need All 6 EGT's?? (DaveG601XL)
3. 06:30 AM - Re: Re: Do You Need All 6 EGT's?? ()
4. 08:50 AM - Re: Do You Need All 6 EGT's?? (Noel Loveys)
5. 11:00 AM - Re: Do You Need All 6 EGT's?? (Lynn Matteson)
6. 11:57 AM - Re: Do You Need All 6 EGT's?? (Kayberg@aol.com)
7. 12:35 PM - Re: Do You Need All 6 EGT's?? (BobsV35B@aol.com)
8. 01:34 PM - Re: Do You Need All 6 EGT's?? (N1BZRich@aol.com)
9. 01:52 PM - Re: Do You Need All 6 EGT's?? (BobsV35B@aol.com)
10. 02:39 PM - Re: Do You Need All 6 EGT's?? (Kayberg@aol.com)
11. 04:17 PM - Egt probes - cht probes (Bill Murphy)
12. 04:56 PM - Re: Egt probes - cht probes (Kayberg@aol.com)
13. 05:05 PM - Re: Egt probes - cht probes (steve)
14. 05:39 PM - Re: Egt probes - cht probes (Keith Pickford)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Do You Need All 6 EGT's?? |
I'll jump in here with couple of numbers from my 2200....At about
2750 rpm, the left front would read 1390 and the LR 1330. When I went
to 2850, they would almost swap readings to within a few degrees of
the original readings. The right side would do something similar, but
I didn't take real good mental notes of that side. All temps are of
course F, and this was flown during an OAT of about 20 F.
I'm real glad I have all four cylinders monitored, and if I had the
3300, I'd want them all monitored as well.
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/460+ hrs
On Jan 22, 2008, at 11:48 PM, Peter Harris wrote:
> <peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>
> Linda,Thanks
> I have seen similar EGT variance and up to 145degC difference above
> 2800rpm.
> I get different results depending on RPM and I believe it is due to
> turbulence in the collector I referred earlier.
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> JOSEPH
> MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS
> Sent: Wednesday, 23 January 2008 12:46 PM
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Do You Need All 6 EGT's??
>
> MATHIAS"
> <lbmathias@verizon.net>
>
> Peter,
>
> The biggest discrepancy occurs during climbout at full power;
> #3 and
> #5 cylinder are generally in the high 1300's or even sometimes in
> the 1400's
>
> while #4 and #6 are registering about 1130-1150. Nos. 1 and 2 are
> usually
> in the low 1300's.
>
> Linda
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
> To: <jabiruengine-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:39 PM
> Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Do You Need All 6 EGT's??
>
>
> <peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>>
>> Linda,
>> Can you advise please, what is a typical pattern of EGT ie are the
>> RHS
>> hotter but even or do they also vary , and by how much. Are the
>> LHS even
>
> and
>> cooler?
>> Thanks
>> Peter H
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> JOSEPH
>> MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS
>> Sent: Wednesday, 23 January 2008 8:19 AM
>> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Do You Need All 6 EGT's??
>>
>> MATHIAS"
>> <lbmathias@verizon.net>
>>
>> Dave,
>>
>> I have all 6 EGT's and CHT's on my 3300 in a Lightning; the
>> comparisons for all 6 have been invaluable in troubleshooting and
> resolving
>> some CHT overheating problems through the past summer. I am still
> having
>> some fairly large discrepancies between the EGT's on the left and
>> right
>> sides of the engine during climbout; still working to resolve those.
> Both
>> rejetting and twisting the carb helped a little but I was unable to
> twist it
>>
>> far enough to resolve the problem because the second twist caused a
> blockage
>>
>> of the throttle linkage. I may have to rejet again but having the #s
> for
>> all cylinders helps JabiruUSA/Arion know how to advise me.
>>
>> Linda Mathias
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "DaveG601XL" <david.m.gallagher@ge.com>
>> To: <jabiruengine-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:32 PM
>> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Do You Need All 6 EGT's??
>>
>>
>> <david.m.gallagher@ge.com>
>>>
>>> I am still working on my Jabiru 3300/Zenith 601XL FWF and have this
> to
>> throw out to you all for opinions?
>>>
>>> Do you really need to drill all six exhaust pipes and read six EGT's
> if
>> using the Bing carb??
>>>
>>> I understand that you cannot tune individual cylinders with this
>>> carb
>> set-up. You can only change jet sizes to modify overall mixture
>> or tilt
>
> the
>>
>> carb to favor one side or another. This said, Pete's recommendation
> from
>> Jabiru USA is to still go ahead and drill all six.
>>>
>>> I do not mind the work of drilling the extra four holes. My concern
> is
>> of creating four more potential sources of undercowl heat and carbon
>> monoxide from possible leaks. Maybe this is a non-issue, I don't
>> know.
>> Also I know that more thermocouples increases the chances of a bad
> sensor
>> making you think there is a problem where none exists.
>>>
>>> Can anybody with real world experience of reading all six cylinders
>> chime in with:
>>>
>>> 1. Have you found any evidence where these probes leaked and caused
>> issues.
>>> 2. Did reading all six EGT's tell you something that you would not
> have
>> found out by reading only two.
>>>
>>> Pete, these are the follow-up questions that I did not think to ask
> when
>>
>> I first asked you about this at the FWF seminar last fall.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --------
>>> David Gallagher
>>> 601 XL, tail and wings completed,
>>> fueslage almost done. Working engine and electrical systems.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159830#159830
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
>> ----
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> ----
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Do You Need All 6 EGT's?? |
OK, you convinced me. I was leaning towards reading all six anyway. My background
is in production aircraft where I do not have every EGT and CHT looking me
in the face. In the case of the 1946 Champ I rent out, there are none. As
Doug said, why not have something else to worry about during cross country trips.
I will use the latest Jabiru recommendation of 120mm down from the face of the
exhaust port.
Thanks,
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL, tail and wings completed,
fueslage almost done. Working engine and electrical systems.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159939#159939
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Do You Need All 6 EGT's?? |
The key word on the 1946 Champ was "rent".
Dred
---- DaveG601XL <david.m.gallagher@ge.com> wrote:
>
> OK, you convinced me. I was leaning towards reading all six anyway. My background
is in production aircraft where I do not have every EGT and CHT looking
me in the face. In the case of the 1946 Champ I rent out, there are none.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Do You Need All 6 EGT's?? |
If you have one cylinder start to run lean, for whatever reason, and you
have an electronic engine monitor then you may as well take advantage of it.
It could save you blowing a hole in a piston of a hot cylinder.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
DaveG601XL
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:02 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Do You Need All 6 EGT's??
<david.m.gallagher@ge.com>
I am still working on my Jabiru 3300/Zenith 601XL FWF and have this to throw
out to you all for opinions?
Do you really need to drill all six exhaust pipes and read six EGT's if
using the Bing carb??
I understand that you cannot tune individual cylinders with this carb
set-up. You can only change jet sizes to modify overall mixture or tilt the
carb to favor one side or another. This said, Pete's recommendation from
Jabiru USA is to still go ahead and drill all six.
I do not mind the work of drilling the extra four holes. My concern is of
creating four more potential sources of undercowl heat and carbon monoxide
from possible leaks. Maybe this is a non-issue, I don't know. Also I know
that more thermocouples increases the chances of a bad sensor making you
think there is a problem where none exists.
Can anybody with real world experience of reading all six cylinders chime in
with:
1. Have you found any evidence where these probes leaked and caused issues.
2. Did reading all six EGT's tell you something that you would not have
found out by reading only two.
Pete, these are the follow-up questions that I did not think to ask when I
first asked you about this at the FWF seminar last fall.
Thanks,
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL, tail and wings completed,
fueslage almost done. Working engine and electrical systems.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159830#159830
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Do You Need All 6 EGT's?? |
Nice to see a familiar name over here, Noel...thinking of making the
switch? : )
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/460+ hrs
do not archive
On Jan 23, 2008, at 11:47 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>
> If you have one cylinder start to run lean, for whatever reason,
> and you
> have an electronic engine monitor then you may as well take
> advantage of it.
> It could save you blowing a hole in a piston of a hot cylinder.
>
> Noel
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Do You Need All 6 EGT's?? |
In a message dated 1/23/2008 11:51:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
noelloveys@yahoo.ca writes:
If you have one cylinder start to run lean, for whatever reason, and you
have an electronic engine monitor then you may as well take advantage of it.
It could save you blowing a hole in a piston of a hot cylinder.
Noel
And do what?
Most likely if you have a cylinder that shows a high EGT, the probe has gone
bad, If the manifold has no leaks. AND if you drilled the hole in the
exhaust EXACTLY the same distance as all the others.
You could then swap the probe with another one to see if it is the probe.
Other than that, it just gives you something to fret about.
Keep the mixtures rich rather than lean (remember aircooled engines are also
fuel-cooled) and spend the extra $.50 an hour it costs for a slightly rich
mixture for peace of mind.
I deal with electronic sensors most every day. They are capable of
offering more information than can be processed and are difficult to check for
accuracy. Particularly digital readouts are difficult to asses. EGT probes
suffer a lot of temperature changes.
Again, I advocate worrying about the Cylinder Head Temps on individual
cylinders more than the EGTs on each.
Doug Koenigsberg
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Do You Need All 6 EGT's?? |
Good Afternoon Doug,
You ask: "And do what?"
What to do is not something that can be answered with a single flip statement.
Operating an engine monitor properly requires a considerable amount of study
of the combustion process. The existence of a high EGT is, as you infer,
relatively insignificant, but by looking for the peak EGT points, the adequacy
of
mixture distribution can be evaluated. The peak point can be determined
accurately even when the gauge is very inaccurate!
That knowledge will allow an operator to search for an answer that may
provide better operating conditions. It would be nice to be able to adjust the
fuel
flow to each individual cylinder, but there are a multitude of other
conditions that can lead to an uneven fuel mixture. Burning up a little extra
fuel may
or may not be a financial disadvantage for some folks, but extra fuel is
almost l always a detriment to long life in any engine.
I do take strong exception to your statement that "aircooled engines are
also fuel-cooled"
Extra fuel is often used to aid in placing the peak combustion event at a
point where peak cylinder pressures and peak cylinder temperatures can be held
within reason, but that effect can be used for engines that are cooled in any
manner, not just aircooled engines.
Most aircraft engines use a very rich mixture at high powers. Those same
engines will run cleaner and cooler at cruise powers if they are operated at
mixtures that are more lean than the stoichiometric mixture.
Not only is the engine cooler and less expensive to operate when on the
"lean" side, but it also produces much less carbon monoxide. While none of us ever
expect to have an exhaust leak that will find it's way into our cabin heater,
running lean could save your life if a leak does occur.
I think there are at least two questions here.
1. Is it a good idea to find out what IS happening in each cylinder?
2. Is it a good ideas to operate on the Green (lean) side of best power?
I believe the answer to both questions is a strong and resounding YES!!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Stearman N3977A
Downers Grove, IL
In a message dated 1/23/2008 1:58:28 PM Central Standard Time,
Kayberg@aol.com writes:
And do what?
Most likely if you have a cylinder that shows a high EGT, the probe has gone
bad, If the manifold has no leaks. AND if you drilled the hole in the exhaust
EXACTLY the same distance as all the others.
You could then swap the probe with another one to see if it is the probe.
Other than that, it just gives you something to fret about.
Keep the mixtures rich rather than lean (remember aircooled engines are also
fuel-cooled) and spend the extra $.50 an hour it costs for a slightly rich
mixture for peace of mind.
I deal with electronic sensors most every day. They are capable of offering
more information than can be processed and are difficult to check for
accuracy. Particularly digital readouts are difficult to asses. EGT probes suffer
a lot of temperature changes.
Again, I advocate worrying about the Cylinder Head Temps on individual
cylinders more than the EGTs on each.
Doug Koenigsberg
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Do You Need All 6 EGT's?? |
Hey Bob,
What's the latest news and progress on your granddaughter's Legend Cub?
Do she still plan on using a Jabiru 3300. I think she will like the
performance that it will provide. See you at SNF?
Blue Skies,
Buz
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Do You Need All 6 EGT's?? |
Good Afternoon Buz,
They have it covered and assembled, but the engine (it is a 3300) has not yet
been hung and the wiring has yet to be started. They hope to have it flying
by spring break, but you know the old saying: Ninety percent finished and
ninety percent to go!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 1/23/2008 3:36:38 PM Central Standard Time,
N1BZRich@aol.com writes:
Hey Bob,
What's the latest news and progress on your granddaughter's Legend Cub?
Do she still plan on using a Jabiru 3300. I think she will like the
performance that it will provide. See you at SNF?
Blue Skies,
Buz
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Do You Need All 6 EGT's?? |
In a message dated 1/23/2008 3:38:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
BobsV35B@aol.com writes:
Good Afternoon Doug,
You ask: "And do what?"
What to do is not something that can be answered with a single flip
statement.
Operating an engine monitor properly requires a considerable amount of study
of the combustion process. The existence of a high EGT is, as you infer,
relatively insignificant, but by looking for the peak EGT points, the adequacy
of mixture distribution can be evaluated. The peak point can be determined
accurately even when the gauge is very inaccurate!
That knowledge will allow an operator to search for an answer that may
provide better operating conditions. It would be nice to be able to adjust the
fuel flow to each individual cylinder, but there are a multitude of other
conditions that can lead to an uneven fuel mixture. Burning up a little extra
fuel
may or may not be a financial disadvantage for some folks, but extra fuel is
almost l always a detriment to long life in any engine.
I do take strong exception to your statement that "aircooled engines are
also fuel-cooled"
Extra fuel is often used to aid in placing the peak combustion event at a
point where peak cylinder pressures and peak cylinder temperatures can be held
within reason, but that effect can be used for engines that are cooled in any
manner, not just aircooled engines.
Most aircraft engines use a very rich mixture at high powers. Those same
engines will run cleaner and cooler at cruise powers if they are operated at
mixtures that are more lean than the stoichiometric mixture.
Not only is the engine cooler and less expensive to operate when on the
"lean" side, but it also produces much less carbon monoxide. While none of us
ever expect to have an exhaust leak that will find it's way into our cabin
heater, running lean could save your life if a leak does occur.
I think there are at least two questions here.
1. Is it a good idea to find out what IS happening in each cylinder?
2. Is it a good ideas to operate on the Green (lean) side of best power?
I believe the answer to both questions is a strong and resounding YES!!
I do plead guilty to being flip. But I think you missed my point.
With a single carb for 6 cylinders, that is altitude compensating not
mechanically leanable from the cockpit, just what options does the worried pilot
have?
True you can get some indication of what is happening in each cylinder, IF
the sensors are correctly placed and monitored, IF you have both EGT and CHT
probes , you MAY have a means of understanding what MAY be happening. That
takes some resounding off the yes to question one.
While it may be a good idea to operate on the lean side of peak, just how do
you do that when you have little control over it? The carb supplied with
the Jab 3300 can be tweeked to run lean at a particular altitude, particular
load and particular RPM. But it will make up its own mind at all other
throttle settings, density altitude and load. That takes a great deal of shine
off
the resounding Yes to question 2.
I thought that fuel cooling was well known in the aviation engine business,
perhaps I am wrong. I remember reading a couple articles about it over the
years. But it is particularly helpful in high power settings, such as takeoff
and climb....which is why many engines do run rich at those settings. Not
so helpful at cruise, I agree.
I do agree that knowing Peak EGT would be very helpful IF you could control
the mixture.
No quibles about carbon monoxide being less at lean mixtures. However, a
tight cockpit is a requrement if you are going to get gassed.....and requires
use of a cabin heater with access to combustion products.
Doug Koenigsberg
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 11
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| Subject: | Egt probes - cht probes |
At that very point myself. Decided the opportunity to monitor all six EGT's as
a diagnostic tool will make the install worthwhile.
Now, my question : Installing the six probes under the plugs for the CHT. How can
I fit the probe ring under the plug & still get a plug socket on the plug well
enough to seat plug/probe ring? what am I missing here?
Bill Murphy
Tiger Moth 31 (building)
_________________________________________________________________
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
http://biggestloser.msn.com/
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Egt probes - cht probes |
In a message dated 1/23/2008 7:17:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
tigermoth3@hotmail.com writes:
Now, my question : Installing the six probes under the plugs for the CHT.
How can I fit the probe ring under the plug & still get a plug socket on the
plug well enough to seat plug/probe ring? what am I missing here?
Bill Murphy
Grind a part of the cooling fin off that blocks it at the plug. Will
require removing a piece the size of your fingernail
doug
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Egt probes - cht probes |
I had the same problem.
Jabiru said to grind off some of the fins on the head. I did not want to
grind off anything on my $21K package.
Jabiru Jim had me purchase Champion spark plugs # 905. These have a small
socket size and work perfectly..
SW
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Murphy" <tigermoth3@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:14 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Egt probes - cht probes
> <tigermoth3@hotmail.com>
>
>
> At that very point myself. Decided the opportunity to monitor all six
> EGT's as a diagnostic tool will make the install worthwhile.
>
> Now, my question : Installing the six probes under the plugs for the CHT.
> How can I fit the probe ring under the plug & still get a plug socket on
> the plug well enough to seat plug/probe ring? what am I missing here?
>
> Bill Murphy
> Tiger Moth 31 (building)
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
> http://biggestloser.msn.com/
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Egt probes - cht probes |
Have heard that you can change to a round terminal and fit it under a
head stud. Apparently it reads a few degrees cooler, but saves oil leaks
etc from plug. Haven't tried it, but sounds like a good idea.
KP
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Egt probes - cht probes
<notsew_evets@frontiernet.net>
I had the same problem.
Jabiru said to grind off some of the fins on the head. I did not want
to
grind off anything on my $21K package.
Jabiru Jim had me purchase Champion spark plugs # 905. These have a
small
socket size and work perfectly..
SW
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Murphy" <tigermoth3@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:14 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Egt probes - cht probes
> <tigermoth3@hotmail.com>
>
>
> At that very point myself. Decided the opportunity to monitor all six
> EGT's as a diagnostic tool will make the install worthwhile.
>
> Now, my question : Installing the six probes under the plugs for the
CHT.
> How can I fit the probe ring under the plug & still get a plug socket
on
> the plug well enough to seat plug/probe ring? what am I missing here?
>
> Bill Murphy
> Tiger Moth 31 (building)
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
> http://biggestloser.msn.com/
>
>
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