Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:16 AM - Re: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch (Peter Harris)
2. 12:56 AM - Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch (jetboy)
3. 04:11 AM - Re: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch (Gilles Thesee)
4. 05:22 AM - Re: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch (BobsV35B@aol.com)
5. 06:08 AM - Re: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch (BobsV35B@aol.com)
6. 06:18 AM - Re: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch (BobsV35B@aol.com)
7. 02:56 PM - Re: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch (Noel Loveys)
8. 03:38 PM - Re: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch (Peter Harris)
9. 04:44 PM - Re: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch (Noel Loveys)
10. 05:49 PM - Re: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch (BobsV35B@aol.com)
11. 06:48 PM - Re: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch (JOSEPH MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS)
12. 06:50 PM - Re: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch (JOSEPH MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS)
13. 07:22 PM - Re: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch (BobsV35B@aol.com)
14. 07:40 PM - Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch (jetboy)
15. 08:16 PM - Re: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch (BobsV35B@aol.com)
16. 08:55 PM - Re: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch (Peter Harris)
17. 09:11 PM - Re: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
18. 10:39 PM - Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch (jetboy)
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch |
Hi Bob,
My knowledge is a bit patchy. The best source for good info is aeroelectrics
list found in the Matronics group or you could Google for Bob Nucholls
Aeroelectric Connection. He has a diagram for the crowbar over voltage
protection (OV) which disconnects a runaway alternator if the regulator
should fail. Then the life of the alternator would depend on the mode of
failure. Normally overvoltage goes to earth through the regulator but if the
Reg. went OC and with no OV protection then your main bus will be exposed to
the unregulated alternator output which goes up to 60VAC
There is also another alternative circuit which could be used for OV
protection and which would allow the alternator to remain connected.
Basically this alternative OV circuit is like a supplementary regulator
which starts to work if the supply voltage goes above 15V.
Old Peter (1938 vintage)
_____
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, 23 March 2008 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Good Evening Peter,
Thanks for the information.
Do most Jabiru operators use some sort of over voltage protection? Is there
a common method that has been successful?
As I am sure you can tell, my knowledge in this area is woefully inadequate.
Are there any good sources of data that I can study?
If a contactor was opened by a crowbar or other over voltage protection such
that it would save the electronics, would the alternator still be damaged or
is there some modality that would cause it to reduce it's output?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 3/22/2008 7:51:24 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
peterjfharris@bigpond.com writes:
Bob,
You are right about the excess current it is taken to earth at the base of
the regulator which should be mounted on a heat sink panel. AC output from
the PM alternator varies with RPM and the excess energy is bled off to earth
during the rectification/regulation process.
It sounds a bit primitive but it is simple and effective. Over voltage
protection is worthwhile in case the regulator burns out.
Peter H
_____
Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch
<http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom0
0030000000001> the video on AOL Home.
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch |
Bob if I can help explain the type of system used by Jabiru I hope it aids your
wiring choice.
Some texts refer to the PMA as a dynamo. The Jabiru assembly is similar to most
Japanese and Harley motorcyles- not the old brit bikes that used Lucas -the prince
of darkness- electrics.
Early 3300 used a 3-phase stator, which requires a six diode rectifier stack like
most automotive "alternators" have. In theory, this is much better for the
output filtering because the ripple from a 3 phase is much less than the "on-off"
flow from a single phase winding.
Old motorcycles and Rotax 2 strokes used a shunt regulator to limit the output.
This was in the form of a selenium pile mounted under the headlight for cooling
on the bikes or a triggered diode (SCR) switch module on the rotax. When the
output got above 14 volts the shunt device would load the stator windings and
the current would be limited by the available magnet strength. the Rotax units
had a habbit of failing open circuit leaving 50 volts to burn up whatever I
had connected downstream.
You can choose a linear series regulator, Powermate or B+C LR3 come to mind. The
limitation on these is that they are, much like a carbon pile, in the line and
reduce the current by turning it to heat. The big advantage is the output is
much cleaner. If they fail it will usually be short cct and that is not favourable
to your avionics, so these normally need or incorporate some overvoltage
crowbar.
Newer motorcycles, Jabiru and i believe Rotax 912 use a series switching regulator.
That is, when the transistors see the voltage applied to the yellow 'sense'
wire is lower than the internally preset reference voltage, the bridge rectifier
is triggered on. this is by activation of the two SCRs that are in the
-ve legs of the bridge. The SCR that is conducting remains conducting until the
end of the AC cycle coming from the stator windings, at this time the SCR remains
non conducting unless there is a fresh trigger from the transistors that
sense the voltage.
The advantage of this regulator is that no current is dumped to ground, and as
it is switching on it does not get hot. It is either on or off. the battery has
to absorb the excess of the 'on' pulse which can be a problem if you run without
battery connected or with sense wire disconnected. SCRs usually fail 'open
cct' so there will be no output hence there is little need for other overvolt
protection, so long as the sense wire is ALLWAYS in connection with the output
wire.
If you wish to be able to turn off the PMA, I would suggest switching one of the
AC stator wires. The Jabiru manual is not very clear here, in 3 places it shows
different recommendations. I would follow the text that calls for yellow and
red to be joined and connected direct to battery studs, or via a fuse link
(this is a bolted fuse element or a short crimped thin wire in the engine bay-
you cannot fix a problem of a magnitude that would cause this fuse to blow anyway)
If you wish to use the 'charge fail' lamp facility as depicted in the sample wiring
schematic for J250 aircraft, you will then need to disconnect some of the
regulator from the battery via the master switch. My option would be to use a
double pole master and wire the lamp via the spare pole. This would avoid flat
battery whilst preserving the direct regulator-battery connection. Dont blame
me if you did it another way and have burnt parts!
Regards, Ralph
telecommunications engineering is my day job
part-time avionics and PT6 instrumentation troubleshooter
CH701 with Jabiru 2200a
and yes I have a turbine and it DOES have a PMA. came off an A7
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171885#171885
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch |
Noel Loveys a crit :
>
> Generators and magnetos are somewhat limited in their capacity to
> generate electrical power so over voltage is not generally a
> consideration.
>
Noel and all,
Whereas I would second you on the self limited *current* capacity of
permanent magnet alternators, I beg to differ on the over *voltage*
issue : a PM alternator cannot prevent from producing voltage when
spinning, and if the regulator fails, voltage may climb as up as 80-100
volts according to model and rpm.
A good battery may temporarily soak the voltage excursion, but those
values are sufficient to damage any avionics if not taken care of on
time. So overvoltage protection is worth some consideration if expensive
avionics is installed.
As mentioned elsewhere, the Aeroelectric website and list provide really
valuable information and circuit architecture suggestions. The
experience an knowledge there are hard to beat.
FWIW
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch |
Good Morning Noel,
I did look at the list of revised pages and they show ALL pages as having
been revised!
I don't mind the paper so much, but all that ink!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Do Not Archive
In a message dated 3/22/2008 11:07:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
noelloveys@yahoo.ca writes:
Great! Have look at the list of revised pages which follows the table of
contents. It will give you a list of all the updated and added pages... Saves
wear and tear on the printer, paper and cartridges. You may have to make
notes of the different pages you will need and print only those pages... The
old pages can go in the bottom of the bird cage.
Noel
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch |
Good Morning Peter,
I have been monitoring the matronics list for several years and 'Lectric Bob
for at least twenty years. I do have several copies of the Connection plus
it's predecessor from the Down By The Riverside Press!.
I even attended one of his seminars a year or so ago.
That is probably why I am so concerned as to how the permanent magnet
alternator can be deactivated so that it will not fry the electronics nor tear
itself apart. I think I do understand the use of a crow bar to save the panel,
but the runaway alternator has me concerned.
I had no idea there was such a thing available as a permanent magnet
alternator. I guess every time it was mentioned, I disregarded and skipped over
it
because I worked only on military and certified aircraft electrical systems.
Never messed with outboards, lawn mowers or snow mobiles.
Thanks for all the help you and others have provided.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 3/23/2008 2:17:40 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
peterjfharris@bigpond.com writes:
Hi Bob,
My knowledge is a bit patchy. The best source for good info is aeroelectrics
list found in the Matronics group or you could Google for Bob Nucholls
Aeroelectric Connection. He has a diagram for the crowbar over voltage protection
(OV) which disconnects a runaway alternator if the regulator should fail.
Then the life of the alternator would depend on the mode of failure. Normally
overvoltage goes to earth through the regulator but if the Reg. went OC and
with no OV protection then your main bus will be exposed to the unregulated
alternator output which goes up to 60VAC
There is also another alternative circuit which could be used for OV
protection and which would allow the alternator to remain connected. Basically
this
alternative OV circuit is like a supplementary regulator which starts to work
if the supply voltage goes above 15V.
Old Peter (1938 vintage)
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch |
Good Morning Ralph,
That helps a lot!
My learning curve is still on the way up. Your fine explanation has been
printed and added to the manual.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Do Not Archive
In a message dated 3/23/2008 2:56:52 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
sanson.r@xtra.co.nz writes:
Bob if I can help explain the type of system used by Jabiru I hope it aids
your wiring choice.
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch |
Thanks Ralph:
It's always good to learn more.
I was under the understanding that the carbon pile actually lowered the
voltage when it came into problems.,, Which were generally crystallization
of the piles.
I can see the switching one of the stator wires but couldn't see the
advantage of that.
Does your turbine produce 400 Hz three phase??
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jetboy
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 5:23 AM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Bob if I can help explain the type of system used by Jabiru I hope it aids
your wiring choice.
Some texts refer to the PMA as a dynamo. The Jabiru assembly is similar to
most Japanese and Harley motorcyles- not the old brit bikes that used Lucas
-the prince of darkness- electrics.
Early 3300 used a 3-phase stator, which requires a six diode rectifier stack
like most automotive "alternators" have. In theory, this is much better for
the output filtering because the ripple from a 3 phase is much less than the
"on-off" flow from a single phase winding.
Old motorcycles and Rotax 2 strokes used a shunt regulator to limit the
output. This was in the form of a selenium pile mounted under the headlight
for cooling on the bikes or a triggered diode (SCR) switch module on the
rotax. When the output got above 14 volts the shunt device would load the
stator windings and the current would be limited by the available magnet
strength. the Rotax units had a habbit of failing open circuit leaving 50
volts to burn up whatever I had connected downstream.
You can choose a linear series regulator, Powermate or B+C LR3 come to mind.
The limitation on these is that they are, much like a carbon pile, in the
line and reduce the current by turning it to heat. The big advantage is the
output is much cleaner. If they fail it will usually be short cct and that
is not favourable to your avionics, so these normally need or incorporate
some overvoltage crowbar.
Newer motorcycles, Jabiru and i believe Rotax 912 use a series switching
regulator. That is, when the transistors see the voltage applied to the
yellow 'sense' wire is lower than the internally preset reference voltage,
the bridge rectifier is triggered on. this is by activation of the two SCRs
that are in the -ve legs of the bridge. The SCR that is conducting remains
conducting until the end of the AC cycle coming from the stator windings, at
this time the SCR remains non conducting unless there is a fresh trigger
from the transistors that sense the voltage.
The advantage of this regulator is that no current is dumped to ground, and
as it is switching on it does not get hot. It is either on or off. the
battery has to absorb the excess of the 'on' pulse which can be a problem if
you run without battery connected or with sense wire disconnected. SCRs
usually fail 'open cct' so there will be no output hence there is little
need for other overvolt protection, so long as the sense wire is ALLWAYS in
connection with the output wire.
If you wish to be able to turn off the PMA, I would suggest switching one of
the AC stator wires. The Jabiru manual is not very clear here, in 3 places
it shows different recommendations. I would follow the text that calls for
yellow and red to be joined and connected direct to battery studs, or via a
fuse link (this is a bolted fuse element or a short crimped thin wire in the
engine bay- you cannot fix a problem of a magnitude that would cause this
fuse to blow anyway)
If you wish to use the 'charge fail' lamp facility as depicted in the sample
wiring schematic for J250 aircraft, you will then need to disconnect some of
the regulator from the battery via the master switch. My option would be to
use a double pole master and wire the lamp via the spare pole. This would
avoid flat battery whilst preserving the direct regulator-battery
connection. Dont blame me if you did it another way and have burnt parts!
Regards, Ralph
telecommunications engineering is my day job
part-time avionics and PT6 instrumentation troubleshooter
CH701 with Jabiru 2200a
and yes I have a turbine and it DOES have a PMA. came off an A7
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171885#171885
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch |
Gilles and Ralph,
If the J3300 is fitted with a series switching regulator does this mean that
the alternator AC output is switched on or off the bridge connection and it
would go OC when the battery is fully charged and there is no load dumping
to earth?
Does this mean that the regulator is safe and does not require OV protection
or do we need OV protection for interruption of a heavy DC current on the
busbar side?
Thanks,
Peter H ( I suppose this should be on the aeroelectrics list)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jetboy
Sent: Sunday, 23 March 2008 5:53 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Bob if I can help explain the type of system used by Jabiru I hope it aids
your wiring choice.
Some texts refer to the PMA as a dynamo. The Jabiru assembly is similar to
most Japanese and Harley motorcyles- not the old brit bikes that used Lucas
-the prince of darkness- electrics.
Early 3300 used a 3-phase stator, which requires a six diode rectifier stack
like most automotive "alternators" have. In theory, this is much better for
the output filtering because the ripple from a 3 phase is much less than the
"on-off" flow from a single phase winding.
Old motorcycles and Rotax 2 strokes used a shunt regulator to limit the
output. This was in the form of a selenium pile mounted under the headlight
for cooling on the bikes or a triggered diode (SCR) switch module on the
rotax. When the output got above 14 volts the shunt device would load the
stator windings and the current would be limited by the available magnet
strength. the Rotax units had a habbit of failing open circuit leaving 50
volts to burn up whatever I had connected downstream.
You can choose a linear series regulator, Powermate or B+C LR3 come to mind.
The limitation on these is that they are, much like a carbon pile, in the
line and reduce the current by turning it to heat. The big advantage is the
output is much cleaner. If they fail it will usually be short cct and that
is not favourable to your avionics, so these normally need or incorporate
some overvoltage crowbar.
Newer motorcycles, Jabiru and i believe Rotax 912 use a series switching
regulator. That is, when the transistors see the voltage applied to the
yellow 'sense' wire is lower than the internally preset reference voltage,
the bridge rectifier is triggered on. this is by activation of the two SCRs
that are in the -ve legs of the bridge. The SCR that is conducting remains
conducting until the end of the AC cycle coming from the stator windings, at
this time the SCR remains non conducting unless there is a fresh trigger
from the transistors that sense the voltage.
The advantage of this regulator is that no current is dumped to ground, and
as it is switching on it does not get hot. It is either on or off. the
battery has to absorb the excess of the 'on' pulse which can be a problem if
you run without battery connected or with sense wire disconnected. SCRs
usually fail 'open cct' so there will be no output hence there is little
need for other overvolt protection, so long as the sense wire is ALLWAYS in
connection with the output wire.
If you wish to be able to turn off the PMA, I would suggest switching one of
the AC stator wires. The Jabiru manual is not very clear here, in 3 places
it shows different recommendations. I would follow the text that calls for
yellow and red to be joined and connected direct to battery studs, or via a
fuse link (this is a bolted fuse element or a short crimped thin wire in the
engine bay- you cannot fix a problem of a magnitude that would cause this
fuse to blow anyway)
If you wish to use the 'charge fail' lamp facility as depicted in the sample
wiring schematic for J250 aircraft, you will then need to disconnect some of
the regulator from the battery via the master switch. My option would be to
use a double pole master and wire the lamp via the spare pole. This would
avoid flat battery whilst preserving the direct regulator-battery
connection. Dont blame me if you did it another way and have burnt parts!
Regards, Ralph
telecommunications engineering is my day job
part-time avionics and PT6 instrumentation troubleshooter
CH701 with Jabiru 2200a
and yes I have a turbine and it DOES have a PMA. came off an A7
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171885#171885
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch |
To be honest I didn't look at the list of revised pages... Happy
printing... I hate the cost of cartridges too.
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Good Morning Noel,
I did look at the list of revised pages and they show ALL pages as having
been revised!
I don't mind the paper so much, but all that ink!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Do Not Archive
In a message dated 3/22/2008 11:07:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
noelloveys@yahoo.ca writes:
Great! Have look at the list of revised pages which follows the table of
contents. It will give you a list of all the updated and added pages...
Saves wear and tear on the printer, paper and cartridges. You may have to
make notes of the different pages you will need and print only those
pages... The old pages can go in the bottom of the bird cage.
Noel
_____
Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch
<http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom0
0030000000001> the video on AOL Home.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch |
Good Evening Noel,
All 110 pages have been revised, the bulletins brought up to date, and we
will be heading to Texas tomorrow to help our Granddaughter install the 3300
Jabiru engine in her Quick Built Legend Cub!
Thanks for all the help from everyone. I have learned a lot about permanent
magnet alternators in the last few days.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Do Not Archive
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 3/23/2008 6:45:49 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
noelloveys@yahoo.ca writes:
To be honest I didn=99t look at the list of revised pages... Happy
printing... I hate the cost of cartridges too.
Noel
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aol
hom00030000000001)
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch |
----- Original Message -----
From: Noel Loveys
To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 7:41 PM
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator
switch
To be honest I didn't look at the list of revised pages... Happy
printing... I hate the cost of cartridges too.
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 9:49 AM
To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator
switch
Good Morning Noel,
I did look at the list of revised pages and they show ALL pages as
having been revised!
I don't mind the paper so much, but all that ink!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Do Not Archive
In a message dated 3/22/2008 11:07:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
noelloveys@yahoo.ca writes:
Great! Have look at the list of revised pages which follows the
table of contents. It will give you a list of all the updated and added
pages... Saves wear and tear on the printer, paper and cartridges. You
may have to make notes of the different pages you will need and print
only those pages... The old pages can go in the bottom of the bird
cage.
Noel
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch |
Hey guys,
Try www.inksell.com for good prices on printer cartridges; they are
much cheaper than those you buy in any store. They aren't the printer
mfgr brand but I have had no problem for the past couple years I have
been using them.
Linda
----- Original Message -----
From: Noel Loveys
To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 7:41 PM
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator
switch
To be honest I didn't look at the list of revised pages... Happy
printing... I hate the cost of cartridges too.
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 9:49 AM
To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator
switch
Good Morning Noel,
I did look at the list of revised pages and they show ALL pages as
having been revised!
I don't mind the paper so much, but all that ink!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Do Not Archive
In a message dated 3/22/2008 11:07:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
noelloveys@yahoo.ca writes:
Great! Have look at the list of revised pages which follows the
table of contents. It will give you a list of all the updated and added
pages... Saves wear and tear on the printer, paper and cartridges. You
may have to make notes of the different pages you will need and print
only those pages... The old pages can go in the bottom of the bird
cage.
Noel
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-Listhttp://forums.matroni
cs.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch |
Good Evening Peter,
Just a bit of information if you will. What is an SCR?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 3/23/2008 5:39:47 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
peterjfharris@bigpond.com writes:
Newer motorcycles, Jabiru and i believe Rotax 912 use a series switching
regulator. That is, when the transistors see the voltage applied to the
yellow 'sense' wire is lower than the internally preset reference voltage,
the bridge rectifier is triggered on. this is by activation of the two SCRs
that are in the -ve legs of the bridge. The SCR that is conducting remains
conducting until the end of the AC cycle coming from the stator windings, at
this time the SCR remains non conducting unless there is a fresh trigger
from the transistors that sense the voltage.
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch |
Peter & Noel
If I wanted to disable the alternator I would switch the AC off rather than the
rectified and regulated DC. 3 reasons: switching the DC does not isolate your
windings from burning up. Switching the DC involves another infirm connection
and much longer path to the battery. The rating of the switch required is lower
and the AC line is prior to the regulator so any voltage drops are not affecting
the output.
The series switching regulator, when up to full voltage on the DC bus, is OC, and
the AC available from the PMA is not consumed. The windings stay cool, and
there is no load on the engine because the magnets are passing a coil that is
not connected anywhere.
If wired in a safe configuration and with a battery or capacitor across the output
it should not need any further OV protection. Interrupting a heavy load off
the DC bus will not cause the regulator do go OV. Anytime the sense wire is
not directly connected to the output, you need another form of protection, because
the voltage control loop is open, and like an automotive alternator, full
output will be made available to all in its path.
Bob's aerolectric Z20 looks to be a safe method, and has the fusible links to isolate
any faulty units from further harm.
Ralph.
PS the turbine with a PMA is a JFS100 APU, the alternator is for 24 volts @ 4 amps
and only uses a rectifier. It gives me no trouble, but the igniter box is
another story.....
Peter H wrote:
> Gilles and Ralph,
> If the J3300 is fitted with a series switching regulator does this mean that
> the alternator AC output is switched on or off the bridge connection and it
> would go OC when the battery is fully charged and there is no load dumping
> to earth?
> Does this mean that the regulator is safe and does not require OV protection
> or do we need OV protection for interruption of a heavy DC current on the
> busbar side?
>
> Thanks,
> Peter H ( I suppose this should be on the aeroelectrics list)
>
>
> --
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172101#172101
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch |
Good Evening Ralph,
In the paragraph below, what does OC stand for?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 3/23/2008 9:41:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
sanson.r@xtra.co.nz writes:
The series switching regulator, when up to full voltage on the DC bus, is
OC, and the AC available from the PMA is not consumed. The windings stay cool,
and there is no load on the engine because the magnets are passing a coil
that is not connected anywhere.
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch |
Bob,
Better to ask Ralph, he raised it.
But it is a type of transistor like a triode it will conduct when the grid
voltage reaches switching level usually set at 14.5V for this application.
So a voltage sensing device triggers the SCR at 14.5V and it conducts excess
current to earth.
"I think"
Peter
_____
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Monday, 24 March 2008 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Good Evening Peter,
Just a bit of information if you will. What is an SCR?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 3/23/2008 5:39:47 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
peterjfharris@bigpond.com writes:
Newer motorcycles, Jabiru and i believe Rotax 912 use a series switching
regulator. That is, when the transistors see the voltage applied to the
yellow 'sense' wire is lower than the internally preset reference voltage,
the bridge rectifier is triggered on. this is by activation of the two SCRs
that are in the -ve legs of the bridge. The SCR that is conducting remains
conducting until the end of the AC cycle coming from the stator windings, at
this time the SCR remains non conducting unless there is a fresh trigger
from the transistors that sense the voltage.
_____
Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch
<http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom0
0030000000001> the video on AOL Home.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch |
In a message dated 03/23/2008 9:41:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
sanson.r@xtra.co.nz writes:
Anytime the sense wire is not directly connected to the output, you need
another form of protection, because the voltage control loop is open, and like
an
automotive alternator, full output will be made available to all in its path.
Hi Ralph- obviously you have a pretty good handle on this stuff, so could you
please shed some light on one aspect I'm confused on: It is my understanding
that in a PMA when a magnet passes a coil, there is some maximum amount of
current induced in the coil (load-dependant, of course), based on number of
coil windings and power of the magnetic field provided by the magnet. (Not sure
how velocity of the passing magnetic field affects this) This results in a
maximum voltage value for the given magnet/coil/(velocity?) event, and that
voltage would be self-limiting, or incapable of a "runaway", which is not the case
in a typical automotive-type alternator supplied by a "regulated" voltage to
a field winding as mentioned above.
With a PMA regulated by the device shown in the Jabiru manual, when the SCRs
are triggered to charge the system because the reference voltage set point was
reached, wouldn't each charging event (peak sine wave voltage achieved as
magnet passes a coil with SCRs gated on) reach the maximum possible voltage based
on the above situation?
(I understand how a large capacitor between the alternator leads would reduce
the peak-to-peak voltage, I think...)
Appreciate your input on this issue- great discussion!
Mark
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch |
Mark,
A couple of terms - OC means "open circuit" SCR is the abbreviation of "silicon
controlled rectifier" and is a diode that will not conduct until a trigger signal
is applied to the control lead, thereafter it remains conducting unless
the current passing thru is all gone. This occurs when the PMA output voltage
changes to the reverse polarity, as the voltage passes thru zero the SCR unlatches
and remains off until another trigger voltage is applied to the gate.
The generation of voltage by the PMA is limited by the number of turns on the windings,
and I think the velocity of the magnets moving past. the current draw
available would be determined by the rpm and strength of the magnets I expect,
and these conditions will mean it is self limiting. But to get it to operate
satisfactorily at say 2,000 rpm the unit will end up producing more than those
requirements at 3,300 rpm.
There is no need for regulating the maximum current because even shorting the windings
doesnt produce much more. The voltage needs regulating for a large portion
of the running especially at low loadings it will be 3 or 4 times the minimum
requirement.
Your last question is correct - each time the SCRs are triggered in order to let
thru some more charge, the remainder of that half cycle AC is output to the
load. If the load is a capacitor or battery the current is stored as a charge
and the voltage rises slightly. If there is no load connected, other than your
$$$ avionics, then the half cycle pulse results in a substantial voltage peak.
This all happens very quickly but in most cases the internal capacitors will
store it. If the avionics meet DOD-160 they will be immune. We are only talking
of the part of the cycle that is over the 14 volts so the duration of these
pulses will be less than one thousandth of a second. Not every cycle will be
triggered and not every trigger will result in an overvolt spike because there
is no timing control applied to the triggers. It is a relatively robust simple
design for the purpose of charging the battery and running the lights and horn
on your lawn tractor. I have measured the spikes and voltages on my 15 amp
2200a PMA and there is nothing to be concerned with. I use the PC925 26 AH battery
which can accomodate most problems.
The most efficient way to do this would be to fully rectify the PMA and apply the
15 - 85 volts to a switchmode inverter with a steady 13.8 volt output. These
are off the shelf items but as soon as you get a bit of moisture in will probably
fail so would be better off fitting a regular 3 phase alternator/regulator.
- and the OV protection.
Ralph
could you please shed some light on one aspect I'm confused on: It is my understanding
that in a PMA when a magnet passes a coil, there is some maximum amount
of current induced in the coil (load-dependant, of course), based on number
of coil windings and power of the magnetic field provided by the magnet. (Not
sure how velocity of the passing magnetic field affects this) This results
in a maximum voltage value for the given magnet/coil/(velocity?) event, and that
voltage would be self-limiting, or incapable of a "runaway", which is not
the case in a typical automotive-type alternator supplied by a "regulated" voltage
to a field winding as mentioned above.
With a PMA regulated by the device shown in the Jabiru manual, when the SCRs are
triggered to charge the system because the reference voltage set point was
reached, wouldn't each charging event (peak sine wave voltage achieved as magnet
passes a coil with SCRs gated on) reach the maximum possible voltage based
on the above situation?
(I understand how a large capacitor between the alternator leads would reduce
the peak-to-peak voltage, I think...)
Appreciate your input on this issue- great discussion!
Mark
Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001).
> [b]
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172134#172134
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