Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:41 AM - Re: CHT probe placement (Peter and Jan Disher)
2. 04:18 AM - Re: CHT probe placement (Terry Phillips)
3. 05:37 AM - Re: CHT probe placement (Mervin Friesen)
4. 05:52 AM - Re: CHT probe placement (Lynn Matteson)
5. 06:17 AM - Re: CHT probe placement (Lynn Matteson)
6. 06:46 AM - Re: CHT probe placement (Lynn Matteson)
7. 07:25 AM - Re: CHT probe placement (Jim Crowder)
8. 07:26 AM - Re: CHT probe placement (Jim Crowder)
9. 07:35 AM - Re: CHT probe placement (Jim Crowder)
10. 09:38 AM - Re: Re: CHT probe placement (Jim Crowder)
11. 10:49 AM - Re: CHT probe placement (Lynn Matteson)
12. 12:48 PM - Re: Andy Silvester (Andy Silvester)
13. 02:50 PM - Fw: [jabiruengines] prop pitch-RPM vs carburetor full rich relationship (Ivan)
14. 03:06 PM - Re: Re: Andy Silvester (Lynn Matteson)
15. 08:34 PM - CH701 with Jabiru 2200 (Chuck Deiterich)
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| Subject: | Re: CHT probe placement |
Jim, My temperatures are now 1-296F. 2-328, 3-378, 4-348, 5-360, 6-332F
These temps are taxing only, I haven't flowen as yet, still waiting
inspection.
I still have my probes as they are in my post of the 25 aug photos attached.
I had an earlier problem with No 5 at 420F and found that the rubber pipe
joiner on the intake pipe was loose and leaking air.
I do think that the temps might record a little higher where I put them.
I did also remove the "V" plates from on top of cylinder and put them
underneath.
Pete Disher
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Crowder" <jcrowder@lpbroadband.net>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 4:19 PM
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: CHT probe placement
> Lynn,
> I now understand. Unless I am confident of where I am going with this, I
> am
> reluctant to drill into my head as Peter did. Has Peter reported the
> temperatures he is getting, or is he not flying yet? I should think your
> temperatures would be similar to what others get with the rings under the
> head bolts if they allow the sensor to lie flat upon the head. There is a
> paste that could also be placed under the terminal that enhances heat
> conduction. It is used with heat sinks, etc. I do not know the operating
> temperature of it. I just looked at my temperature probes and I could cut
> the end portion of the rings so as to remove a horseshoe shaped portion of
> the ring and leave a spade like flat remainder that I could easily drill
> for
> a #8 screw. That way I believe I would not need to remove the old terminal
> and still get the same result. Did you consider that or were your sensors
> different?
>
> I have copied my Excel display screen to a Word document and I will
> attempt
> to post by attaching hereto. On the display you will see the graph with
> inserted values except for CHT which were actual values from my GR
> instrument with the sensors attached and I had heated them with a heat gun
> while held in a cluster by hand. When the snapshot was taken they had
> cooled down to below normal operating temperature. They are all displayed
> in red as I had set the program to display red when above or below the
> safe
> operational range. If above safe temperature they would also display red.
> Yellow is for near high or low and green is for the optimum range. It is
> really fun to watch them change colors and move up and down as I apply
> heat
> or remove it. These ranges are set by typing the various numbers into the
> spreadsheet at setup. I do not have rate of cooling programmed yet. My
> Tablet Computer is very flat and has only a 12" diag. display. In use I
> will mount it on my instrument panel and the display I have attached will
> take up one half of the display with Vista GPS driven moving chart taking
> up
> the other half. I have tried this in my car and boat and it works nicely.
> Note the fuel flow is red as such a flow would indicate a problem. The
> same
> for the cooling rate which is not now truly functional yet. This should
> work on any laptop with my software and interface. I have spent way too
> much time on this.
>
> I will be interested to see if the attached file goes through. If not I
> will send it directly to you.
>
> Jim Crowder
> Kitfox 5
> Jabiru 3300 engine
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lynn
>> Matteson
>> Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 10:36 PM
>> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: CHT probe placement
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, I use the hole that I drilled for the screw, and the crimped
>> portion lays parallel to the head and very close to the surface..as
>> close as a few thousandths from it....as close as the screw can clamp
>> it to the surface. You could also do as you say, or suggest, cut off
>> the eye and insert the crimped portion right into the hole if you
>> could come up with a suitable way to retain it there. That may be how
>> Peter Disher did his..see the archives from Aug 25, 2008 from this
>> List...he has pictures there. I just forwarded this post to you. It
>> *does* sound like he inserted the bare wires perhaps, right into the
>> hole, then ran the screw into the hole. I suppose you could tap the
>> hole, then maybe rout a small groove on one side of the hole in which
>> to insert the bare wires of the t'couple. In any case, the closer to
>> the head, or even right into it, the more accurate the reading. What
>> we are dealing with here however is "uncharted waters", in that
>> because no one else has done this, or reported their findings, we
>> don't know just what the readings should be. That's where the pucker
>> factor for my first flight came from.
>> I was quick to get the plane off the ground, thinking that I'd better
>> get it up there and get cooler air flowing over the engine. I was
>> thinking that my seemingly elevated temps were the result of the
>> newly honed cylinders and new piston rings causing high friction, but
>> it was the more accurate readings of the t'couple probe placement
>> that revealed the higher temps. So what IS the proper temp, now that
>> we have the more accurate readings....beats me!! Maybe Jabiru knows.
>> For me, I just tried to keep it below their posted max of 392 F, but
>> it did go over that once, on the initial startup, running it on the
>> ground. That's why I quickly got it into the air, and that act almost
>> bit me in the butt. The tight engine wasn't climbing very well, so I
>> kept it above tree level, climbing slightly and getting it turned
>> around and landed. When I realized that the engine didn't feel any
>> hotter than before, I started to realize that the feel of the engine
>> was the same as before, but the readings were higher because the
>> probe was no longer 1/2" away from the head, up into the airstream,
>> being cooled and giving lower but inaccurate readings of the actual
>> temp of the head. This is all fine and good if we all do it just the
>> way Jabiru does it, with the spark plug probes. So I unpuckered, and
>> began to accept that I would now be seeing 350-380 F as the
>> norm....my norm, instead of the 275 of before. I guess this is where
>> the "experimenting" part comes in. : )
>>
>> I flew to an airport about 40 miles away today, and my head temps
>> were running about 358 for the most part, and I've accepted that as
>> my new norm. It comforts me to know that I haven't changed anything
>> relating to airflow, so I'm accepting the higher readings as being
>> "normal."
>>
>> I also wish that Jabiru would give us a socket for a bayonet sensor,
>> or at least report what such a probe placement would reveal in the
>> way of temps.
>>
>> Yes, I kind of read between the lines on your experimenting, and
>> please do keep *us all* posted on your progress....I'm sure that this
>> is the kind of thing that this List is meant to do...inform and share
>> all aspects of Jabiru engine-related experimentation. At least that's
>> the way I read it.
>>
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>> Kitfox IV Speedster
>> Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, and counting...all systems are go, or nearly so...
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
1:30 PM
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| Subject: | Re: CHT probe placement |
Jim
>From your post I can see that you are well along in developing your own EFIS data
acquisition software. Even so, you may want to take a look at Waiter's program:
http://www.iflyez.com/EFISRecorder.shtml
It has been available for several years and is frequently updated. Best of all,
it s free.
I am planning to use it to record all EFIS and EIS data when I get to the flight
test stage.
Terry
--------
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6701#206701
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| Subject: | CHT probe placement |
Just a thought Lynn. Do you still have a spark plug ring thermocouple that
you could place on the same cylinder as the newly placed thermocouple?
Reading both temps at the same time should give a good comparison.
Mervin Friesen
Sonex 122 Jab 2200
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
Matteson
Sent: September 28, 2008 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: CHT probe placement
--> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Yes, I use the hole that I drilled for the screw, and the crimped portion
lays parallel to the head and very close to the surface..as close as a few
thousandths from it....as close as the screw can clamp it to the surface.
You could also do as you say, or suggest, cut off the eye and insert the
crimped portion right into the hole if you could come up with a suitable way
to retain it there. That may be how Peter Disher did his..see the archives
from Aug 25, 2008 from this List...he has pictures there. I just forwarded
this post to you. It
*does* sound like he inserted the bare wires perhaps, right into the hole,
then ran the screw into the hole. I suppose you could tap the hole, then
maybe rout a small groove on one side of the hole in which to insert the
bare wires of the t'couple. In any case, the closer to the head, or even
right into it, the more accurate the reading. What we are dealing with here
however is "uncharted waters", in that because no one else has done this, or
reported their findings, we don't know just what the readings should be.
That's where the pucker factor for my first flight came from.
I was quick to get the plane off the ground, thinking that I'd better get it
up there and get cooler air flowing over the engine. I was thinking that my
seemingly elevated temps were the result of the newly honed cylinders and
new piston rings causing high friction, but it was the more accurate
readings of the t'couple probe placement that revealed the higher temps. So
what IS the proper temp, now that we have the more accurate
readings....beats me!! Maybe Jabiru knows.
For me, I just tried to keep it below their posted max of 392 F, but it did
go over that once, on the initial startup, running it on the ground. That's
why I quickly got it into the air, and that act almost bit me in the butt.
The tight engine wasn't climbing very well, so I kept it above tree level,
climbing slightly and getting it turned around and landed. When I realized
that the engine didn't feel any hotter than before, I started to realize
that the feel of the engine was the same as before, but the readings were
higher because the probe was no longer 1/2" away from the head, up into the
airstream, being cooled and giving lower but inaccurate readings of the
actual temp of the head. This is all fine and good if we all do it just the
way Jabiru does it, with the spark plug probes. So I unpuckered, and began
to accept that I would now be seeing 350-380 F as the norm....my norm,
instead of the 275 of before. I guess this is where the "experimenting"
part comes in. : )
I flew to an airport about 40 miles away today, and my head temps were
running about 358 for the most part, and I've accepted that as my new norm.
It comforts me to know that I haven't changed anything relating to airflow,
so I'm accepting the higher readings as being "normal."
I also wish that Jabiru would give us a socket for a bayonet sensor, or at
least report what such a probe placement would reveal in the way of temps.
Yes, I kind of read between the lines on your experimenting, and please do
keep *us all* posted on your progress....I'm sure that this is the kind of
thing that this List is meant to do...inform and share all aspects of Jabiru
engine-related experimentation. At least that's the way I read it.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, and counting...all systems are go, or nearly so...
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| Subject: | Re: CHT probe placement |
Amazingly simple, but great idea, Craig...if I hadn't already
committed to the location I have now, I'd do it. Somebody else do it
and let me and the others know. Jim?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, and counting...all systems are go, or nearly so...
On Sep 29, 2008, at 12:44 AM, Craig Payne wrote:
> <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
> Temporarily install a thermocouple under the plug and in your new
> hole. That
> will allow you to build a conversion chart.
>
> -- Craig
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: CHT probe placement |
I haven't seen a post by Peter since the Aug 25 one....did you get
his post that I forwarded to you, Jim?
I think I would be reluctant to change anything right now too, if I
were you, Jim, being as how you are still under warranty. Being as
how I am way over warranty, and the factory doesn't seem to give two
hoots about even seeing my recent gear breakage (other than the
picture that Pete forwarded to them), or trying to determine why it
would break, I think they would take delight in voiding your warranty
at the mere mention of doing anything other than what is cast in
stone....sorry, I'm not the biggest fan of the Jabiru corp at this
moment.
Cutting the present terminal like you describe sounds like a good way
to go. I didn't consider that because I could see some rust on the
"iron" wire....the probes are two dissimilar wires, iron and
constantan....where the insulation was frayed, and wanted to scrape
the rust clean and re-insulate, so I opted for the new terminal.
Being that your terminals are probably new and ok, I'd do like you
suggested and cut them when you do decide to go ahead and change them.
I got the attachment, but all I see when opening it is: "EMBED
PBrush" (without the quotes) within a rectangular border, and
nothing else. Of course I'm on an eMac so my world of computers
differs from yours, I'm sure. I cannot see some of the stuff that the
IBM world sees.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, and counting...all systems are go, or nearly so...
On Sep 29, 2008, at 2:19 AM, Jim Crowder wrote:
> Lynn,
> I now understand. Unless I am confident of where I am going with
> this, I am
> reluctant to drill into my head as Peter did. Has Peter reported the
> temperatures he is getting, or is he not flying yet? I should
> think your
> temperatures would be similar to what others get with the rings
> under the
> head bolts if they allow the sensor to lie flat upon the head.
> There is a
> paste that could also be placed under the terminal that enhances heat
> conduction. It is used with heat sinks, etc. I do not know the
> operating
> temperature of it. I just looked at my temperature probes and I
> could cut
> the end portion of the rings so as to remove a horseshoe shaped
> portion of
> the ring and leave a spade like flat remainder that I could easily
> drill for
> a #8 screw. That way I believe I would not need to remove the old
> terminal
> and still get the same result. Did you consider that or were your
> sensors
> different?
>
> I have copied my Excel display screen to a Word document and I will
> attempt
> to post by attaching hereto. On the display you will see the graph
> with
> inserted values except for CHT which were actual values from my GR
> instrument with the sensors attached and I had heated them with a
> heat gun
> while held in a cluster by hand. When the snapshot was taken they had
> cooled down to below normal operating temperature. They are all
> displayed
> in red as I had set the program to display red when above or below
> the safe
> operational range. If above safe temperature they would also
> display red.
> Yellow is for near high or low and green is for the optimum range.
> It is
> really fun to watch them change colors and move up and down as I
> apply heat
> or remove it. These ranges are set by typing the various numbers
> into the
> spreadsheet at setup. I do not have rate of cooling programmed
> yet. My
> Tablet Computer is very flat and has only a 12" diag. display. In
> use I
> will mount it on my instrument panel and the display I have
> attached will
> take up one half of the display with Vista GPS driven moving chart
> taking up
> the other half. I have tried this in my car and boat and it works
> nicely.
> Note the fuel flow is red as such a flow would indicate a problem.
> The same
> for the cooling rate which is not now truly functional yet. This
> should
> work on any laptop with my software and interface. I have spent
> way too
> much time on this.
>
> I will be interested to see if the attached file goes through. If
> not I
> will send it directly to you.
>
> Jim Crowder
> Kitfox 5
> Jabiru 3300 engine
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
>> Lynn
>> Matteson
>> Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 10:36 PM
>> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: CHT probe placement
>>
>>
>> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>
>>
>> Yes, I use the hole that I drilled for the screw, and the crimped
>> portion lays parallel to the head and very close to the surface..as
>> close as a few thousandths from it....as close as the screw can clamp
>> it to the surface. You could also do as you say, or suggest, cut off
>> the eye and insert the crimped portion right into the hole if you
>> could come up with a suitable way to retain it there. That may be how
>> Peter Disher did his..see the archives from Aug 25, 2008 from this
>> List...he has pictures there. I just forwarded this post to you. It
>> *does* sound like he inserted the bare wires perhaps, right into the
>> hole, then ran the screw into the hole. I suppose you could tap the
>> hole, then maybe rout a small groove on one side of the hole in which
>> to insert the bare wires of the t'couple. In any case, the closer to
>> the head, or even right into it, the more accurate the reading. What
>> we are dealing with here however is "uncharted waters", in that
>> because no one else has done this, or reported their findings, we
>> don't know just what the readings should be. That's where the pucker
>> factor for my first flight came from.
>> I was quick to get the plane off the ground, thinking that I'd better
>> get it up there and get cooler air flowing over the engine. I was
>> thinking that my seemingly elevated temps were the result of the
>> newly honed cylinders and new piston rings causing high friction, but
>> it was the more accurate readings of the t'couple probe placement
>> that revealed the higher temps. So what IS the proper temp, now that
>> we have the more accurate readings....beats me!! Maybe Jabiru knows.
>> For me, I just tried to keep it below their posted max of 392 F, but
>> it did go over that once, on the initial startup, running it on the
>> ground. That's why I quickly got it into the air, and that act almost
>> bit me in the butt. The tight engine wasn't climbing very well, so I
>> kept it above tree level, climbing slightly and getting it turned
>> around and landed. When I realized that the engine didn't feel any
>> hotter than before, I started to realize that the feel of the engine
>> was the same as before, but the readings were higher because the
>> probe was no longer 1/2" away from the head, up into the airstream,
>> being cooled and giving lower but inaccurate readings of the actual
>> temp of the head. This is all fine and good if we all do it just the
>> way Jabiru does it, with the spark plug probes. So I unpuckered, and
>> began to accept that I would now be seeing 350-380 F as the
>> norm....my norm, instead of the 275 of before. I guess this is where
>> the "experimenting" part comes in. : )
>>
>> I flew to an airport about 40 miles away today, and my head temps
>> were running about 358 for the most part, and I've accepted that as
>> my new norm. It comforts me to know that I haven't changed anything
>> relating to airflow, so I'm accepting the higher readings as being
>> "normal."
>>
>> I also wish that Jabiru would give us a socket for a bayonet sensor,
>> or at least report what such a probe placement would reveal in the
>> way of temps.
>>
>> Yes, I kind of read between the lines on your experimenting, and
>> please do keep *us all* posted on your progress....I'm sure that this
>> is the kind of thing that this List is meant to do...inform and share
>> all aspects of Jabiru engine-related experimentation. At least that's
>> the way I read it.
>>
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>> Kitfox IV Speedster
>> Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, and counting...all systems are go, or nearly
>> so...
>> <Excel Display.doc>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: CHT probe placement |
Nope, I replaced all spark plug probes with the #8 electrical ring
terminal, and I don't want to change back now. I'm pretty confident
that the readings I'm getting now are all ok, just nothing to compare
them to at the present. The engine runs fine, climbs well, and
doesn't seem any hotter than before after shut-down, so I'm playing
it by the seat of my pants and assuming everything to be ok.
Just as an aside, I used to install thermocouples on test cars that
we would run in the wind tunnel at Chrysler Proving Grounds. They
were having problems attaching the probes onto exhaust manifolds.
They tried brazing them on, and the braze would pop off...they might
not have gotten a clean job....so they would braze and use high temp
tape to hold them in place. They weren't getting the numbers they
expected, and would discover that the probe wasn't touching the
manifold any longer.
The I started to experiment with a TIG welder, and found that I could
melt a small puddle on the manifold and quickly insert the probe
wires into the molten cast iron and hold it until the puddle
solidified. We never had another issue with them coming off. I also
found the same method to work where they were trying to read the
temperature of the back of the aluminum bell housing on an automatic
transmission. (They were concerned with reducing the heat coming
through the floor mats) Like the manifolds, the t'couples would fall
off when merely taped into position, so I fired up the TIG and melted
a small puddle right where they wanted it, and stuck the probe into
it. Again, the probes never came off.
These probes were iron-constantan, or J type, and chromel-alumel, or
K type. The J's work best up to about 600 F as I recall, and the K's
are best at 600 and above. Our plug/CHT probes are the J type and the
EGT probes are K type.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, and counting...all systems are go, or nearly so...
On Sep 29, 2008, at 8:36 AM, Mervin Friesen wrote:
> <mefriesen@mts.net>
>
> Just a thought Lynn. Do you still have a spark plug ring
> thermocouple that
> you could place on the same cylinder as the newly placed thermocouple?
> Reading both temps at the same time should give a good comparison.
>
> Mervin Friesen
> Sonex 122 Jab 2200
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: September 28, 2008 11:36 PM
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: CHT probe placement
>
> --> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
>
> Yes, I use the hole that I drilled for the screw, and the crimped
> portion
> lays parallel to the head and very close to the surface..as close
> as a few
> thousandths from it....as close as the screw can clamp it to the
> surface.
> You could also do as you say, or suggest, cut off the eye and
> insert the
> crimped portion right into the hole if you could come up with a
> suitable way
> to retain it there. That may be how Peter Disher did his..see the
> archives
> from Aug 25, 2008 from this List...he has pictures there. I just
> forwarded
> this post to you. It
> *does* sound like he inserted the bare wires perhaps, right into
> the hole,
> then ran the screw into the hole. I suppose you could tap the hole,
> then
> maybe rout a small groove on one side of the hole in which to
> insert the
> bare wires of the t'couple. In any case, the closer to the head, or
> even
> right into it, the more accurate the reading. What we are dealing
> with here
> however is "uncharted waters", in that because no one else has done
> this, or
> reported their findings, we don't know just what the readings
> should be.
> That's where the pucker factor for my first flight came from.
> I was quick to get the plane off the ground, thinking that I'd
> better get it
> up there and get cooler air flowing over the engine. I was
> thinking that my
> seemingly elevated temps were the result of the newly honed
> cylinders and
> new piston rings causing high friction, but it was the more accurate
> readings of the t'couple probe placement that revealed the higher
> temps. So
> what IS the proper temp, now that we have the more accurate
> readings....beats me!! Maybe Jabiru knows.
> For me, I just tried to keep it below their posted max of 392 F,
> but it did
> go over that once, on the initial startup, running it on the
> ground. That's
> why I quickly got it into the air, and that act almost bit me in
> the butt.
> The tight engine wasn't climbing very well, so I kept it above tree
> level,
> climbing slightly and getting it turned around and landed. When I
> realized
> that the engine didn't feel any hotter than before, I started to
> realize
> that the feel of the engine was the same as before, but the
> readings were
> higher because the probe was no longer 1/2" away from the head, up
> into the
> airstream, being cooled and giving lower but inaccurate readings of
> the
> actual temp of the head. This is all fine and good if we all do it
> just the
> way Jabiru does it, with the spark plug probes. So I unpuckered,
> and began
> to accept that I would now be seeing 350-380 F as the norm....my
> norm,
> instead of the 275 of before. I guess this is where the
> "experimenting"
> part comes in. : )
>
> I flew to an airport about 40 miles away today, and my head temps were
> running about 358 for the most part, and I've accepted that as my
> new norm.
> It comforts me to know that I haven't changed anything relating to
> airflow,
> so I'm accepting the higher readings as being "normal."
>
> I also wish that Jabiru would give us a socket for a bayonet
> sensor, or at
> least report what such a probe placement would reveal in the way of
> temps.
>
> Yes, I kind of read between the lines on your experimenting, and
> please do
> keep *us all* posted on your progress....I'm sure that this is the
> kind of
> thing that this List is meant to do...inform and share all aspects
> of Jabiru
> engine-related experimentation. At least that's the way I read it.
>
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster
> Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, and counting...all systems are go, or nearly
> so...
>
>
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| Subject: | CHT probe placement |
Lynn,
Sorry it did not display. It did display on mine when I received it back.
I think it is a Mac related problem--different systems. I will try
something else soon and send it to you directly. I'm about to head out to
my hangar to refit the cowl I just modified again. Then I will move on to
the engine install. Currently it's just hanging there with not much else
done.
Jim Crowder
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 7:18 AM
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: CHT probe placement
>
>
>
> I haven't seen a post by Peter since the Aug 25 one....did you get
> his post that I forwarded to you, Jim?
> I think I would be reluctant to change anything right now too, if I
> were you, Jim, being as how you are still under warranty. Being as
> how I am way over warranty, and the factory doesn't seem to give two
> hoots about even seeing my recent gear breakage (other than the
> picture that Pete forwarded to them), or trying to determine why it
> would break, I think they would take delight in voiding your warranty
> at the mere mention of doing anything other than what is cast in
> stone....sorry, I'm not the biggest fan of the Jabiru corp at this
> moment.
>
> Cutting the present terminal like you describe sounds like a good way
> to go. I didn't consider that because I could see some rust on the
> "iron" wire....the probes are two dissimilar wires, iron and
> constantan....where the insulation was frayed, and wanted to scrape
> the rust clean and re-insulate, so I opted for the new terminal.
> Being that your terminals are probably new and ok, I'd do like you
> suggested and cut them when you do decide to go ahead and change them.
>
> I got the attachment, but all I see when opening it is: "EMBED
> PBrush" (without the quotes) within a rectangular border, and
> nothing else. Of course I'm on an eMac so my world of computers
> differs from yours, I'm sure. I cannot see some of the stuff that the
> IBM world sees.
>
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster
> Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, and counting...all systems are go, or nearly so...
>
>
> On Sep 29, 2008, at 2:19 AM, Jim Crowder wrote:
>
> > Lynn,
> > I now understand. Unless I am confident of where I am going with
> > this, I am
> > reluctant to drill into my head as Peter did. Has Peter reported the
> > temperatures he is getting, or is he not flying yet? I should
> > think your
> > temperatures would be similar to what others get with the rings
> > under the
> > head bolts if they allow the sensor to lie flat upon the head.
> > There is a
> > paste that could also be placed under the terminal that enhances heat
> > conduction. It is used with heat sinks, etc. I do not know the
> > operating
> > temperature of it. I just looked at my temperature probes and I
> > could cut
> > the end portion of the rings so as to remove a horseshoe shaped
> > portion of
> > the ring and leave a spade like flat remainder that I could easily
> > drill for
> > a #8 screw. That way I believe I would not need to remove the old
> > terminal
> > and still get the same result. Did you consider that or were your
> > sensors
> > different?
> >
> > I have copied my Excel display screen to a Word document and I will
> > attempt
> > to post by attaching hereto. On the display you will see the graph
> > with
> > inserted values except for CHT which were actual values from my GR
> > instrument with the sensors attached and I had heated them with a
> > heat gun
> > while held in a cluster by hand. When the snapshot was taken they had
> > cooled down to below normal operating temperature. They are all
> > displayed
> > in red as I had set the program to display red when above or below
> > the safe
> > operational range. If above safe temperature they would also
> > display red.
> > Yellow is for near high or low and green is for the optimum range.
> > It is
> > really fun to watch them change colors and move up and down as I
> > apply heat
> > or remove it. These ranges are set by typing the various numbers
> > into the
> > spreadsheet at setup. I do not have rate of cooling programmed
> > yet. My
> > Tablet Computer is very flat and has only a 12" diag. display. In
> > use I
> > will mount it on my instrument panel and the display I have
> > attached will
> > take up one half of the display with Vista GPS driven moving chart
> > taking up
> > the other half. I have tried this in my car and boat and it works
> > nicely.
> > Note the fuel flow is red as such a flow would indicate a problem.
> > The same
> > for the cooling rate which is not now truly functional yet. This
> > should
> > work on any laptop with my software and interface. I have spent
> > way too
> > much time on this.
> >
> > I will be interested to see if the attached file goes through. If
> > not I
> > will send it directly to you.
> >
> > Jim Crowder
> > Kitfox 5
> > Jabiru 3300 engine
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> >> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> >> Lynn
> >> Matteson
> >> Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 10:36 PM
> >> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: CHT probe placement
> >>
> >>
> >> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes, I use the hole that I drilled for the screw, and the crimped
> >> portion lays parallel to the head and very close to the surface..as
> >> close as a few thousandths from it....as close as the screw can clamp
> >> it to the surface. You could also do as you say, or suggest, cut off
> >> the eye and insert the crimped portion right into the hole if you
> >> could come up with a suitable way to retain it there. That may be how
> >> Peter Disher did his..see the archives from Aug 25, 2008 from this
> >> List...he has pictures there. I just forwarded this post to you. It
> >> *does* sound like he inserted the bare wires perhaps, right into the
> >> hole, then ran the screw into the hole. I suppose you could tap the
> >> hole, then maybe rout a small groove on one side of the hole in which
> >> to insert the bare wires of the t'couple. In any case, the closer to
> >> the head, or even right into it, the more accurate the reading. What
> >> we are dealing with here however is "uncharted waters", in that
> >> because no one else has done this, or reported their findings, we
> >> don't know just what the readings should be. That's where the pucker
> >> factor for my first flight came from.
> >> I was quick to get the plane off the ground, thinking that I'd better
> >> get it up there and get cooler air flowing over the engine. I was
> >> thinking that my seemingly elevated temps were the result of the
> >> newly honed cylinders and new piston rings causing high friction, but
> >> it was the more accurate readings of the t'couple probe placement
> >> that revealed the higher temps. So what IS the proper temp, now that
> >> we have the more accurate readings....beats me!! Maybe Jabiru knows.
> >> For me, I just tried to keep it below their posted max of 392 F, but
> >> it did go over that once, on the initial startup, running it on the
> >> ground. That's why I quickly got it into the air, and that act almost
> >> bit me in the butt. The tight engine wasn't climbing very well, so I
> >> kept it above tree level, climbing slightly and getting it turned
> >> around and landed. When I realized that the engine didn't feel any
> >> hotter than before, I started to realize that the feel of the engine
> >> was the same as before, but the readings were higher because the
> >> probe was no longer 1/2" away from the head, up into the airstream,
> >> being cooled and giving lower but inaccurate readings of the actual
> >> temp of the head. This is all fine and good if we all do it just the
> >> way Jabiru does it, with the spark plug probes. So I unpuckered, and
> >> began to accept that I would now be seeing 350-380 F as the
> >> norm....my norm, instead of the 275 of before. I guess this is where
> >> the "experimenting" part comes in. : )
> >>
> >> I flew to an airport about 40 miles away today, and my head temps
> >> were running about 358 for the most part, and I've accepted that as
> >> my new norm. It comforts me to know that I haven't changed anything
> >> relating to airflow, so I'm accepting the higher readings as being
> >> "normal."
> >>
> >> I also wish that Jabiru would give us a socket for a bayonet sensor,
> >> or at least report what such a probe placement would reveal in the
> >> way of temps.
> >>
> >> Yes, I kind of read between the lines on your experimenting, and
> >> please do keep *us all* posted on your progress....I'm sure that this
> >> is the kind of thing that this List is meant to do...inform and share
> >> all aspects of Jabiru engine-related experimentation. At least that's
> >> the way I read it.
> >>
> >>
> >> Lynn Matteson
> >> Kitfox IV Speedster
> >> Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, and counting...all systems are go, or nearly
> >> so...
> >> <Excel Display.doc>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | CHT probe placement |
Pete,
Thanks for your reply. Please keep me updated.
Jim Crowder
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Peter
> and Jan Disher
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 1:40 AM
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: CHT probe placement
>
>
> <pjdisher@bigpond.com>
>
> Jim, My temperatures are now 1-296F. 2-328, 3-378, 4-348, 5-360, 6-332F
> These temps are taxing only, I haven't flowen as yet, still waiting
> inspection.
> I still have my probes as they are in my post of the 25 aug
> photos attached.
> I had an earlier problem with No 5 at 420F and found that the rubber pipe
> joiner on the intake pipe was loose and leaking air.
> I do think that the temps might record a little higher where I put them.
> I did also remove the "V" plates from on top of cylinder and put them
> underneath.
>
> Pete Disher
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Crowder" <jcrowder@lpbroadband.net>
> To: <jabiruengine-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 4:19 PM
> Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: CHT probe placement
>
>
> > Lynn,
> > I now understand. Unless I am confident of where I am going
> with this, I
> > am
> > reluctant to drill into my head as Peter did. Has Peter reported the
> > temperatures he is getting, or is he not flying yet? I should
> think your
> > temperatures would be similar to what others get with the rings
> under the
> > head bolts if they allow the sensor to lie flat upon the head.
> There is a
> > paste that could also be placed under the terminal that enhances heat
> > conduction. It is used with heat sinks, etc. I do not know
> the operating
> > temperature of it. I just looked at my temperature probes and
> I could cut
> > the end portion of the rings so as to remove a horseshoe shaped
> portion of
> > the ring and leave a spade like flat remainder that I could
> easily drill
> > for
> > a #8 screw. That way I believe I would not need to remove the
> old terminal
> > and still get the same result. Did you consider that or were
> your sensors
> > different?
> >
> > I have copied my Excel display screen to a Word document and I will
> > attempt
> > to post by attaching hereto. On the display you will see the graph with
> > inserted values except for CHT which were actual values from my GR
> > instrument with the sensors attached and I had heated them with
> a heat gun
> > while held in a cluster by hand. When the snapshot was taken they had
> > cooled down to below normal operating temperature. They are
> all displayed
> > in red as I had set the program to display red when above or below the
> > safe
> > operational range. If above safe temperature they would also
> display red.
> > Yellow is for near high or low and green is for the optimum
> range. It is
> > really fun to watch them change colors and move up and down as I apply
> > heat
> > or remove it. These ranges are set by typing the various
> numbers into the
> > spreadsheet at setup. I do not have rate of cooling programmed yet. My
> > Tablet Computer is very flat and has only a 12" diag. display. In use I
> > will mount it on my instrument panel and the display I have
> attached will
> > take up one half of the display with Vista GPS driven moving
> chart taking
> > up
> > the other half. I have tried this in my car and boat and it
> works nicely.
> > Note the fuel flow is red as such a flow would indicate a problem. The
> > same
> > for the cooling rate which is not now truly functional yet. This should
> > work on any laptop with my software and interface. I have spent way too
> > much time on this.
> >
> > I will be interested to see if the attached file goes through. If not I
> > will send it directly to you.
> >
> > Jim Crowder
> > Kitfox 5
> > Jabiru 3300 engine
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> >> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lynn
> >> Matteson
> >> Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 10:36 PM
> >> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: CHT probe placement
> >>
> >>
> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes, I use the hole that I drilled for the screw, and the crimped
> >> portion lays parallel to the head and very close to the surface..as
> >> close as a few thousandths from it....as close as the screw can clamp
> >> it to the surface. You could also do as you say, or suggest, cut off
> >> the eye and insert the crimped portion right into the hole if you
> >> could come up with a suitable way to retain it there. That may be how
> >> Peter Disher did his..see the archives from Aug 25, 2008 from this
> >> List...he has pictures there. I just forwarded this post to you. It
> >> *does* sound like he inserted the bare wires perhaps, right into the
> >> hole, then ran the screw into the hole. I suppose you could tap the
> >> hole, then maybe rout a small groove on one side of the hole in which
> >> to insert the bare wires of the t'couple. In any case, the closer to
> >> the head, or even right into it, the more accurate the reading. What
> >> we are dealing with here however is "uncharted waters", in that
> >> because no one else has done this, or reported their findings, we
> >> don't know just what the readings should be. That's where the pucker
> >> factor for my first flight came from.
> >> I was quick to get the plane off the ground, thinking that I'd better
> >> get it up there and get cooler air flowing over the engine. I was
> >> thinking that my seemingly elevated temps were the result of the
> >> newly honed cylinders and new piston rings causing high friction, but
> >> it was the more accurate readings of the t'couple probe placement
> >> that revealed the higher temps. So what IS the proper temp, now that
> >> we have the more accurate readings....beats me!! Maybe Jabiru knows.
> >> For me, I just tried to keep it below their posted max of 392 F, but
> >> it did go over that once, on the initial startup, running it on the
> >> ground. That's why I quickly got it into the air, and that act almost
> >> bit me in the butt. The tight engine wasn't climbing very well, so I
> >> kept it above tree level, climbing slightly and getting it turned
> >> around and landed. When I realized that the engine didn't feel any
> >> hotter than before, I started to realize that the feel of the engine
> >> was the same as before, but the readings were higher because the
> >> probe was no longer 1/2" away from the head, up into the airstream,
> >> being cooled and giving lower but inaccurate readings of the actual
> >> temp of the head. This is all fine and good if we all do it just the
> >> way Jabiru does it, with the spark plug probes. So I unpuckered, and
> >> began to accept that I would now be seeing 350-380 F as the
> >> norm....my norm, instead of the 275 of before. I guess this is where
> >> the "experimenting" part comes in. : )
> >>
> >> I flew to an airport about 40 miles away today, and my head temps
> >> were running about 358 for the most part, and I've accepted that as
> >> my new norm. It comforts me to know that I haven't changed anything
> >> relating to airflow, so I'm accepting the higher readings as being
> >> "normal."
> >>
> >> I also wish that Jabiru would give us a socket for a bayonet sensor,
> >> or at least report what such a probe placement would reveal in the
> >> way of temps.
> >>
> >> Yes, I kind of read between the lines on your experimenting, and
> >> please do keep *us all* posted on your progress....I'm sure that this
> >> is the kind of thing that this List is meant to do...inform and share
> >> all aspects of Jabiru engine-related experimentation. At least that's
> >> the way I read it.
> >>
> >>
> >> Lynn Matteson
> >> Kitfox IV Speedster
> >> Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, and counting...all systems are go, or
> nearly so...
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
>
>
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> 1:30 PM
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | CHT probe placement |
Lynn,
I have converted the screen shot to an Adobe PDF document and attached it
here. That should work better for everyone.
Jim Crowder
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 7:18 AM
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: CHT probe placement
>
>
> I got the attachment, but all I see when opening it is: "EMBED
> PBrush" (without the quotes) within a rectangular border, and
> nothing else. Of course I'm on an eMac so my world of computers
> differs from yours, I'm sure. I cannot see some of the stuff that the
> IBM world sees.
>
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster
> Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, and counting...all systems are go, or nearly so...
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: CHT probe placement |
Terry,
Very interesting. I have written Water but not heard back yet. I sent him
a very brief description of what I had done and asked whether his graphic
screen could be used real time for data display. Mine is set up to display
in red if data is out of limits, yellow if marginal, and green if normal.
If the pilot sees green everything is sweet. Since he is also using Excel,
some combining might be possible.
Thanks.
Jim Crowder
Kitfox 5
Jabiru 3300 install in progress
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Terry
> Phillips
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 5:18 AM
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT probe placement
>
>
> <ttp44@rkymtn.net>
>
> Jim
>
> >From your post I can see that you are well along in developing
> your own EFIS data acquisition software. Even so, you may want to
> take a look at Waiter's program:
>
> http://www.iflyez.com/EFISRecorder.shtml
>
> It has been available for several years and is frequently
> updated. Best of all, it s free.
>
> I am planning to use it to record all EFIS and EIS data when I
> get to the flight test stage.
>
> Terry
>
> --------
> Terry Phillips
> Corvallis, MT
> ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
> Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done;
> working on the wings.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6701#206701
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: CHT probe placement |
Oh yeah, that works like a charm....looks great, too.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, and counting...all systems are go, or nearly so...
On Sep 29, 2008, at 10:35 AM, Jim Crowder wrote:
> Lynn,
> I have converted the screen shot to an Adobe PDF document and
> attached it
> here. That should work better for everyone.
> Jim Crowder
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
>> Lynn
>> Matteson
>> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 7:18 AM
>> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: CHT probe placement
>>
>>
>>
>> I got the attachment, but all I see when opening it is: "EMBED
>> PBrush" (without the quotes) within a rectangular border, and
>> nothing else. Of course I'm on an eMac so my world of computers
>> differs from yours, I'm sure. I cannot see some of the stuff that the
>> IBM world sees.
>>
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Andy Silvester |
Yeah, Ron, the Beach Masseur job had to be curtailed when the price of oil
went up and I couldn't afford to buy the oil and pay the customers as well
(Brazilian cane ethanol just isn't the same....)
Actually, I'm currently waiting in sunny UK (well, last weekend was sunny)
for the Brazilian authorities to grant me a business visa to return there
and continue running production for a factory near Rio producing Sport
Planes and also Lancairs. The current production is mainly Jabiru aircraft
and of course engines, and we also provide Jabiru engine support for Brazil.
The company can be seen at www.cimaer.com.br. Anyway, Best Regards to all
Listers who were wondering where I'd gone. Actually, I never left the list
and monitor it most days from wherever I can access the Interweb.
Cheers, Andy.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Fw: [jabiruengines] prop pitch-RPM vs carburetor full |
rich relationship
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivan
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 9:44 PM
Subject: [jabiruengines] prop pitch-RPM vs carburetor full rich
relationship
I have a J-250 3300. I just had my JSB done regarding the prop
mounting. I cant seem to get the prop pitch of the ground adj
Sensenich prop the same as before but not sure if it is a problem
anyway.
I think I have it set a little more pitch than before. I am only
getting 2810 RPM full power climb at 83 KIAS. My cht/egt's seem good.
Since the Bing altitude compensating carburetor needs a certain RPM???
to run full rich on climb, I am wondering if 2810 RPM is good enough
to run full rich? I used to climb out about 2900-2950 as set at the
factory. Cruise is no issue at 2850 with good temps.
As I remember?? I think the lower limit of "full rich" with the Bing is
at 2800 RPM but do not know for sure. If necessary I can decrease the
pitch a bit. Temps will not be an issue now since the winter is here
but I still should make sure I am running full rich on climb.
Thanks
Ivan Brauer
Phoenix, AZ
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| Subject: | Re: Andy Silvester |
Good to hear from you Andy.
Say, would you know any good CHT numbers for Jabiru engines that have
the CHT probe affixed right on the head, rather than under the spark
plug with the sensing end of the thermocouple sticking up into the
cooling airstream? Maybe you've seen the recent thread concerning
this change of placement. If not, I'll bring you up to speed on what
I did.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, and counting...all systems are go, or nearly so...
On Sep 29, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Andy Silvester wrote:
> Yeah, Ron, the Beach Masseur job had to be curtailed when the price
> of oil went up and I couldnt afford to buy the oil and pay the
> customers as well (Brazilian cane ethanol just isnt the same....)
>
>
> Actually, Im currently waiting in sunny UK (well, last weekend was
> sunny) for the Brazilian authorities to grant me a business visa to
> return there and continue running production for a factory near Rio
> producing Sport Planes and also Lancairs. The current production is
> mainly Jabiru aircraft and of course engines, and we also provide
> Jabiru engine support for Brazil. The company can be seen at
> www.cimaer.com.br. Anyway, Best Regards to all Listers who were
> wondering where Id gone. Actually, I never left the list and
> monitor it most days from wherever I can access the Interweb.
>
> Cheers, Andy.
>
> forums.matronics.com_-
> ============================================================ _-
> contribution_-
> ===========================================================
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| Subject: | CH701 with Jabiru 2200 |
The following statement was taken from "STOL Updates from Zenith
Aircraft Co." e-mail I received today:
"What made this CH 701 unique was the installed powerplant: a Jabiru
2200...."
It is not clear to me what is so unique, as I and others have been
flying our CH 701s behind a Jabiru 2200 since 2002.
In fact, you can see my CH 701 on ZAC's web site with the note it has a
2200.
Chuck D.
N701TX
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