Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:52 AM - Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (lgingell)
2. 01:33 AM - Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (Lynn Matteson)
3. 04:25 AM - Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (DaveG601XL)
4. 04:42 AM - Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (icubob@newnorth.net)
5. 06:08 AM - Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (Noel Loveys)
6. 06:14 AM - Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (zeprep251@aol.com)
7. 06:21 AM - Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (Noel Loveys)
8. 07:56 AM - Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (japhillipsga@aol.com)
9. 09:27 AM - Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (Richard Girard)
10. 10:19 AM - Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (Noel Loveys)
11. 01:06 PM - Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (Peter Harris)
12. 01:23 PM - Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (Peter Harris)
13. 02:30 PM - Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (Lynn Matteson)
14. 04:33 PM - Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (Miguel Azevedo)
15. 08:40 PM - Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (Peter Harris)
16. 10:04 PM - Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (Stanley Challgren)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
Don,
Check you EGT span. I had to modify my induction with a cheap rubber hose instead
of SCAT tube, since I was running rought at WOT over 8000ft:
http://www.lancegingell.com/lance/Tuning_the_Zodiac.html
..lance
ZodiacXL/Jab3300 ~300hrs
--------
Zodiac XL/Jab 3300
http://lancegingell.com/plane.asp
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224441#224441
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
I've gone to gravity only in my 2200 high-wing Kitfox, removing the
mechanical AND the electric pump (that I rarely used before), and
installed the 3.7 mm float needle seat that Bing recommended. No
fuel issues any more for me.
I would think that if you DID have a pressure-related problem with
the float needle/seat combo, that your suggestion of turning on the
boost pump ...at altitude....would reveal it. It did for me, when I
still had my electric pump. It was just too much pressure, so I
removed it, went with the gravity-only, and the 3.7 mm seat.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
ignition system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Jan 13, 2009, at 1:55 AM, Don Honabach wrote:
> Peter,
>
>
> Thanks for the quick reply.
>
>
> FYI, I have a low-wing design and during take-off I use an electric
> boost pump but during transition to cruise I turn it off and just
> use the engine driven mechanical fuel pump on the 3300A. Even with
> the boost pump, I don't exceed 3PSI (at least as much as I can
> trust the accuracy of the gauge at such low values and a narrow
> range).
>
>
> Assuming the needle leaking is the issue, is there a fix for non-
> gravity feed setups?
>
>
> As a side question, do those with gravity setups remove the engine
> driven pump?
>
>
> I'm assuming that if I turn on the boost pump during cruise and if
> I have a needle leak issue that the problem should be noticeable
> sooner or should be worse as the increased pressure will cause more
> leakage?
>
>
> I'll check the choke cable as well to make sure it is fully closing.
>
>
> Thanks!
> Don
>
>
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Harris
> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 23:21
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
>
>
> It sounds like it may be too rich under the load conditions at WOT
> cruise.
>
> The fuel bowl is fitted with 2.25mm needle valve seat which is
> meant for gravity feed, but they have selected the power needle as
> a compromise. If you are using a fuel pump it may cause the needle
> valve seat to leak and overfill the fuel bowl causing excessive
> rich mixture near max rpm.
>
> Another cause of over rich mixture is due to the starting choke not
> fully closing due to friction in the cable.
>
> Peter
>
>
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Honabach
> Sent: Tuesday, 13 January 2009 4:03 PM
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
>
>
> I'm having an issue where during cruise flight if I go full
> throttle either in straight and level or climb, the engine gets
> rough enough that it feels like it will quit. At this point, I
> obviously don't want to push the issue so I pull back on the
> throttle until the roughness goes away.
>
>
> Interestingly, I have no problem with full throttle roughness on
> take-off/climb-out.
>
>
> I also did some additional testing today and found that if I ease
> real slow into full throttle from cruise that I still get the
> roughness but not as bad and that the RPM will increase up to
> ~2,9xx and then start to degrade as I continue to add power along
> with additional roughness.
>
>
> Background info:
>
>
> Full Throttle Static RPM/Ground Run Up is ~2,800RPM. No issues with
> roughness.
>
>
> On my 601HDS, I have a 3300A with the Sensenich Carbon Prop (64"?
> 2A0J5R64Z-N) that was purchased from Jabiru USA/Pete K. back in 2006.
>
>
> Any help greatly appreciated. I've sent this same question to
> Jabiru USA and haven't gotten a response yet (sent last Thursday
> and sent another today asking for status).
>
>
> Initially thought it was the SCAT intake hose which I replaced with
> the rubber 90 degree elbow. Same issue with either intake method.
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Don Honabach
>
> Tempe, AZ
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List http://
> forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> &nbssp; - The JabiruEngine-List Email Forum utilities such as
> List Photoshare, and much much --> http://www.matronics.com/
> Navigator?JabiruEngine-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com -
> List Contribution Web generous nbsp; -->
> http://www.matronics.com/c
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> 1/12/2009 07:04
>
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> contribution_-
> ===========================================================
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
Don,
Have you played with your jet sizes at all? I had a similar issue with being just
a little rich at takeoff, but way too rich at WOT in straight and level flight.
I had one speed run in which I had two cylinders actually go so cold in
EGT that they shut down on me. That is the benefit of having instrumentation
on all cylinders.
I went from the stock 255 main jet to a smaller 250. This helped out a lot. Interestingly
enough, there is an interaction between the main and needle jets,
even at WOT, when the main jet is supposed to be in control. I found this out
when I started to tune in my cruise EGT and went from a stock 285 needle jet
to a smaller 280. Going to the smaller needle jet made my WOT a little too lean
now. I went back to the larger 255 main jet and I am pretty happy with it
now.
Throw into the mix that I also went to a rubber intake hose with a flow divider
to even the EGT spreads across the cylinders.
Your results will certainly vary, but that is why they call this experimental,
right?
Good luck,
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL/Jabiru 3300
First flight 7/24/08
Phase I flight test complete 10/16/08
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224454#224454
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
don,
i have read some builders have removed the mech. pump with a gravity set up. very
easy to make a cover plate where the mech. pump attaches.
a leaky needle valve can be a bad seat or needle, or your system is overpowering
the float. bing can supply a new seat or needle. a pressure gauge that covers
a very narrow pressure range can be had for less than $20. if you are overpressuring
the carb it will leak. i think first i would want to know the fuel pressure,
then decide the fix.
i have also seen my carb leak and run smooth on the ground.
bob noffs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Honabach" <don@pcperfect.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:55:09 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
Peter,
Thanks for the quick reply.
FYI, I have a low-wing design and during take-off I use an electric boost pump
but during transition to cruise I turn it off and just use the engine driven mechanical
fuel pump on the 3300A. Even with the boost pump, I don't exceed 3PSI
(at least as much as I can trust the accuracy of the gauge at such low values
and a narrow range).
Assuming the needle leaking is the issue, is there a fix for non-gravity feed setups?
As a side question, do those with gravity setups remove the engine driven pump?
I'm assuming that if I turn on the boost pump during cruise and if I have a needle
leak issue that the problem should be noticeable sooner or should be worse
as the increased pressure will cause more leakage?
I'll check the choke cable as well to make sure it is fully closing.
Thanks!
Don
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Harris
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 23:21
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
It sounds like it may be too rich under the load conditions at WOT cruise.
The fuel bowl is fitted with 2.25mm needle valve seat which is meant for gravity
feed, but they have selected the power needle as a compromise. If you are using
a fuel pump it may cause the needle valve seat to leak and overfill the fuel
bowl causing excessive rich mixture near max rpm.
Another cause of over rich mixture is due to the starting choke not fully closing
due to friction in the cable.
Peter
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Honabach
Sent: Tuesday, 13 January 2009 4:03 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
I'm having an issue where during cruise flight if I go full throttle either in
straight and level or climb, the engine gets rough enough that it feels like it
will quit. At this point, I obviously don't want to push the issue so I pull
back on the throttle until the roughness goes away.
Interestingly, I have no problem with full throttle roughness on take-off/climb-out.
I also did some additional testing today and found that if I ease real slow into
full throttle from cruise that I still get the roughness but not as bad and
that the RPM will increase up to ~2,9xx and then start to degrade as I continue
to add power along with additional roughness.
Background info:
Full Throttle Static RPM/Ground Run Up is ~2,800RPM. No issues with roughness.
On my 601HDS, I have a 3300A with the Sensenich Carbon Prop (64"? 2A0J5R64Z-N)
that was purchased from Jabiru USA/Pete K. back in 2006.
Any help greatly appreciated. I've sent this same question to Jabiru USA and haven't
gotten a response yet (sent last Thursday and sent another today asking
for status).
Initially thought it was the SCAT intake hose which I replaced with the rubber
90 degree elbow. Same issue with either intake method.
Thanks!
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution &nbssp; - The JabiruEngine-List Email Forum utilities such as List Photoshare, and much much --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web generous nbsp; --> http://www.matronics.com/c=
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
That sounds like a fuel delivery problem to me. Possibly a fuel pump not
working properly when hot. If you have a fuel flow meter check your fuel
flow as you approach full throttle. If yu have a fuel pressure gauge check
that there is no drop in fuel pressure as the engine warms up .
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don
Honabach
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:33 AM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
I'm having an issue where during cruise flight if I go full throttle either
in straight and level or climb, the engine gets rough enough that it feels
like it will quit. At this point, I obviously don't want to push the issue
so I pull back on the throttle until the roughness goes away.
Interestingly, I have no problem with full throttle roughness on
take-off/climb-out.
I also did some additional testing today and found that if I ease real slow
into full throttle from cruise that I still get the roughness but not as bad
and that the RPM will increase up to ~2,9xx and then start to degrade as I
continue to add power along with additional roughness.
Background info:
Full Throttle Static RPM/Ground Run Up is ~2,800RPM. No issues with
roughness.
On my 601HDS, I have a 3300A with the Sensenich Carbon Prop (64"?
2A0J5R64Z-N) that was purchased from Jabiru USA/Pete K. back in 2006.
Any help greatly appreciated. I've sent this same question to Jabiru USA and
haven't gotten a response yet (sent last Thursday and sent another today
asking for status).
Initially thought it was the SCAT intake hose which I replaced with the
rubber 90 degree elbow. Same issue with either intake method.
Thanks!
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
Don,
??? What happens to the exhaust gas temps when you get the roughness?
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Honabach <don.honabach@pcperfect.com>
Sent: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:03 pm
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
I'm having an issue where during cruise flight if I go full
throttle either in straight and level or climb, the engine gets rough enough
that it feels like it will quit. At this point, I obviously don't want to push
the issue so I pull back on the throttle until the roughness goes away.
?
Interestingly, I have no problem with full throttle
roughness on take-off/climb-out.
?
I also did some additional testing today and found that if I
ease real slow into full throttle from cruise that I still get the roughness
but not as bad and that the RPM will increase up to ~2,9xx and then start to
degrade as I continue to add power along with additional roughness.
?
Background info:
?
Full Throttle Static RPM/Ground Run Up is ~2,800RPM. No
issues with roughness.
?
On my 601HDS, I have a 3300A with the Sensenich Carbon Prop
(64"? 2A0J5R64Z-N) that was purchased from Jabiru USA/Pete K. back in
2006.
?
Any help greatly appreciated. I've sent this same question
to Jabiru USA and haven't gotten a response yet (sent last Thursday and sent
another today asking for status).
?
Initially thought it was the SCAT intake hose which I
replaced with the rubber 90 degree elbow. Same issue with either intake method.
?
Thanks!
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ
?
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
The way to tell an over rich condition is to check the plugs. There will
always be a good dose of soot on them if you land immediately. The fuel
flow and pressure tests will show a rich condition too. Generally an over
rich condition makes the engine sluggish and you start to have problems as
you pull the throttle back as the plugs have to clear themselves enough to
keep the engine running.
One other problem you may have is low octane rating on the fuel. That could
sure cause your engine to get rough at top end rpm.
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Harris
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:51 AM
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
It sounds like it may be too rich under the load conditions at WOT cruise.
The fuel bowl is fitted with 2.25mm needle valve seat which is meant for
gravity feed, but they have selected the power needle as a compromise. If
you are using a fuel pump it may cause the needle valve seat to leak and
overfill the fuel bowl causing excessive rich mixture near max rpm.
Another cause of over rich mixture is due to the starting choke not fully
closing due to friction in the cable.
Peter
_____
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don
Honabach
Sent: Tuesday, 13 January 2009 4:03 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
I'm having an issue where during cruise flight if I go full throttle either
in straight and level or climb, the engine gets rough enough that it feels
like it will quit. At this point, I obviously don't want to push the issue
so I pull back on the throttle until the roughness goes away.
Interestingly, I have no problem with full throttle roughness on
take-off/climb-out.
I also did some additional testing today and found that if I ease real slow
into full throttle from cruise that I still get the roughness but not as bad
and that the RPM will increase up to ~2,9xx and then start to degrade as I
continue to add power along with additional roughness.
Background info:
Full Throttle Static RPM/Ground Run Up is ~2,800RPM. No issues with
roughness.
On my 601HDS, I have a 3300A with the Sensenich Carbon Prop (64"?
2A0J5R64Z-N) that was purchased from Jabiru USA/Pete K. back in 2006.
Any help greatly appreciated. I've sent this same question to Jabiru USA and
haven't gotten a response yet (sent last Thursday and sent another today
asking for status).
Initially thought it was the SCAT intake hose which I replaced with the
rubber 90 degree elbow. Same issue with either intake method.
Thanks!
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
Don, I had a similar problem even with the rubber hose. Seems the carb reacts to
the varing speed of the air coming into it after the 90 degree turn. The fix
was making a divider vane of .20 aluminum sized to slip snug inside the rubber
tube at the bend that divides and channels the air just before it enters the
Bing. Worked for me. Best of luck, Bill of Georgia
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Honabach <don.honabach@pcperfect.com>
Sent: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 1:03 am
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
I'm having an issue where during cruise flight if I go full throttle either in
straight and level or climb, the engine gets rough enough that it feels like it
will quit. At this point, I obviously don't want to push the issue so I pull
back on the throttle until the roughness goes away.
?
Interestingly, I have no problem with full throttle roughness on take-off/climb-out.
?
I also did some additional testing today and found that if I ease real slow into
full throttle from cruise that I still get the roughness but not as bad and
that the RPM will increase up to ~2,9xx and then start to degrade as I continue
to add power along with additional roughness.
?
Background info:
?
Full Throttle Static RPM/Ground Run Up is ~2,800RPM. No issues with roughness.
?
On my 601HDS, I have a 3300A with the Sensenich Carbon Prop (64"? 2A0J5R64Z-N)
that was purchased from Jabiru USA/Pete K. back in 2006.
?
Any help greatly appreciated. I've sent this same question to Jabiru USA and haven't
gotten a response yet (sent last Thursday and sent another today asking
for status).
?
Initially thought it was the SCAT intake hose which I replaced with the rubber
90 degree elbow. Same issue with either intake method.
?
Thanks!
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ
?
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
As a firm believer in doing the easiest, cheapest thing first, check your
tank venting. Next, do a plug check. Let the engine enter its rough running,
shut the engine off and glide in. Plug color is an inexact method, per the
Bing manual, but if your engine is running so rich as to run rough you
should see the fuel contamination on the insulator. Worth what you paid for
it.
Rick
On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 9:53 AM, <japhillipsga@aol.com> wrote:
> Don, I had a similar problem even with the rubber hose. Seems the carb
> reacts to the varing speed of the air coming into it after the 90 degree
> turn. The fix was making a divider vane of .20 aluminum sized to slip snug
> inside the rubber tube at the bend that divides and channels the air just
> before it enters the Bing. Worked for me. Best of luck, Bill of Georgia
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Honabach <don.honabach@pcperfect.com>
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 1:03 am
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
>
> I'm having an issue where during cruise flight if I go full throttle
> either in straight and level or climb, the engine gets rough enough that it
> feels like it will quit. At this point, I obviously don't want to push the
> issue so I pull back on the throttle until the roughness goes away.
>
> Interestingly, I have no problem with full throttle roughness on
> take-off/climb-out.
>
> I also did some additional testing today and found that if I ease real slow
> into full throttle from cruise that I still get the roughness but not as bad
> and that the RPM will increase up to ~2,9xx and then start to degrade as I
> continue to add power along with additional roughness.
>
> Background info:
>
> Full Throttle Static RPM/Ground Run Up is ~2,800RPM. No issues with
> roughness.
>
> On my 601HDS, I have a 3300A with the Sensenich Carbon Prop (64"?
> 2A0J5R64Z-N) that was purchased from Jabiru USA/Pete K. back in 2006.
>
> Any help greatly appreciated. I've sent this same question to Jabiru USA
> and haven't gotten a response yet (sent last Thursday and sent another today
> asking for status).
>
> Initially thought it was the SCAT intake hose which I replaced with the
> rubber 90 degree elbow. Same issue with either intake method.
>
> Thanks!
> Don Honabach
> Tempe, AZ
>
>
> **
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Get a *free MP3* every day with the Spinner.com toolbar. Get It Now<http://toolbar.aol.com/spinner/download.html?ncid=emlweusdown00000021>.
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
Any engine running that rich, long enough, will leave lots of soot on the
bottom of the plane and it will be caked up well in the exhaust too. Have a
look. Little or no soot and the problem is not too rich.
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Girard
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
As a firm believer in doing the easiest, cheapest thing first, check your
tank venting. Next, do a plug check. Let the engine enter its rough running,
shut the engine off and glide in. Plug color is an inexact method, per the
Bing manual, but if your engine is running so rich as to run rough you
should see the fuel contamination on the insulator. Worth what you paid for
it.
Rick
On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 9:53 AM, <japhillipsga@aol.com> wrote:
Don, I had a similar problem even with the rubber hose. Seems the carb
reacts to the varing speed of the air coming into it after the 90 degree
turn. The fix was making a divider vane of .20 aluminum sized to slip snug
inside the rubber tube at the bend that divides and channels the air just
before it enters the Bing. Worked for me. Best of luck, Bill of Georgia
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Honabach <don.honabach@pcperfect.com>
Sent: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 1:03 am
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
I'm having an issue where during cruise flight if I go full throttle either
in straight and level or climb, the engine gets rough enough that it feels
like it will quit. At this point, I obviously don't want to push the issue
so I pull back on the throttle until the roughness goes away.
Interestingly, I have no problem with full throttle roughness on
take-off/climb-out.
I also did some additional testing today and found that if I ease real slow
into full throttle from cruise that I still get the roughness but not as bad
and that the RPM will increase up to ~2,9xx and then start to degrade as I
continue to add power along with additional roughness.
Background info:
Full Throttle Static RPM/Ground Run Up is ~2,800RPM. No issues with
roughness.
On my 601HDS, I have a 3300A with the Sensenich Carbon Prop (64"?
2A0J5R64Z-N) that was purchased from Jabiru USA/Pete K. back in 2006.
Any help greatly appreciated. I've sent this same question to Jabiru USA and
haven't gotten a response yet (sent last Thursday and sent another today
asking for status).
Initially thought it was the SCAT intake hose which I replaced with the
rubber 90 degree elbow. Same issue with either intake method.
Thanks!
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ
_____
Get a free MP3 every day with the Spinner.com toolbar. Get It Now
<http://toolbar.aol.com/spinner/download.html?ncid=emlweusdown00000021> .
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
Lynn
According to the advice I got from the German Bing website engineer
The float valve needle seat for gravity feed is 2.25 and for pump feed is
1.5mm. I tried the 1,5mm seat and found it very I would say too lean at
cruise because Jab has selected the power needle using the 2.25 seat/pump
combination tuned for economy cruise.
I conducted bench tests of the induction collector using a pressure spray
gun and found that the alignment of the intake is absolutely critical due to
the fact that inside the collector is a central vane. Any misalignment of
the carb butterfly or of the carb on the hose attachment will cause the
charge to favour one side or the other. If the distribution of the charge is
bad the engine begins to "box" with uneven power strokes causing vibration
(which I think may contribute to the flywheel bolts breakage). In an extreme
case the engine may run bad rough.
Likewise poor scat hose configuration could contribute to the issue and the
effect is suddenly greatest at or near WOT.
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
Matteson
Sent: Tuesday, 13 January 2009 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
I've gone to gravity only in my 2200 high-wing Kitfox, removing the
mechanical AND the electric pump (that I rarely used before), and
installed the 3.7 mm float needle seat that Bing recommended. No
fuel issues any more for me.
I would think that if you DID have a pressure-related problem with
the float needle/seat combo, that your suggestion of turning on the
boost pump ...at altitude....would reveal it. It did for me, when I
still had my electric pump. It was just too much pressure, so I
removed it, went with the gravity-only, and the 3.7 mm seat.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
ignition system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Jan 13, 2009, at 1:55 AM, Don Honabach wrote:
> Peter,
>
>
> Thanks for the quick reply.
>
>
> FYI, I have a low-wing design and during take-off I use an electric
> boost pump but during transition to cruise I turn it off and just
> use the engine driven mechanical fuel pump on the 3300A. Even with
> the boost pump, I don't exceed 3PSI (at least as much as I can
> trust the accuracy of the gauge at such low values and a narrow
> range).
>
>
> Assuming the needle leaking is the issue, is there a fix for non-
> gravity feed setups?
>
>
> As a side question, do those with gravity setups remove the engine
> driven pump?
>
>
> I'm assuming that if I turn on the boost pump during cruise and if
> I have a needle leak issue that the problem should be noticeable
> sooner or should be worse as the increased pressure will cause more
> leakage?
>
>
> I'll check the choke cable as well to make sure it is fully closing.
>
>
> Thanks!
> Don
>
>
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Harris
> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 23:21
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
>
>
> It sounds like it may be too rich under the load conditions at WOT
> cruise.
>
> The fuel bowl is fitted with 2.25mm needle valve seat which is
> meant for gravity feed, but they have selected the power needle as
> a compromise. If you are using a fuel pump it may cause the needle
> valve seat to leak and overfill the fuel bowl causing excessive
> rich mixture near max rpm.
>
> Another cause of over rich mixture is due to the starting choke not
> fully closing due to friction in the cable.
>
> Peter
>
>
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Honabach
> Sent: Tuesday, 13 January 2009 4:03 PM
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
>
>
> I'm having an issue where during cruise flight if I go full
> throttle either in straight and level or climb, the engine gets
> rough enough that it feels like it will quit. At this point, I
> obviously don't want to push the issue so I pull back on the
> throttle until the roughness goes away.
>
>
> Interestingly, I have no problem with full throttle roughness on
> take-off/climb-out.
>
>
> I also did some additional testing today and found that if I ease
> real slow into full throttle from cruise that I still get the
> roughness but not as bad and that the RPM will increase up to
> ~2,9xx and then start to degrade as I continue to add power along
> with additional roughness.
>
>
> Background info:
>
>
> Full Throttle Static RPM/Ground Run Up is ~2,800RPM. No issues with
> roughness.
>
>
> On my 601HDS, I have a 3300A with the Sensenich Carbon Prop (64"?
> 2A0J5R64Z-N) that was purchased from Jabiru USA/Pete K. back in 2006.
>
>
> Any help greatly appreciated. I've sent this same question to
> Jabiru USA and haven't gotten a response yet (sent last Thursday
> and sent another today asking for status).
>
>
> Initially thought it was the SCAT intake hose which I replaced with
> the rubber 90 degree elbow. Same issue with either intake method.
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Don Honabach
>
> Tempe, AZ
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List http://
> forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> &nbssp; - The JabiruEngine-List Email Forum utilities such as
> List Photoshare, and much much --> http://www.matronics.com/
> Navigator?JabiruEngine-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com -
> List Contribution Web generous nbsp; -->
> http://www.matronics.com/c
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> 1/12/2009 07:04
>
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> contribution_-
> ===========================================================
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
Even assuming the incoming charge is aligned properly, near WOT there is a
large increase in fuel dumped at the end of the collector feeding #1 and #2
and this will show up on the plugs as suggested by Noel. I have been
experimenting with a 1.5L tapered plenum in place of the Jab collector and
the effect near WOT is dramatic causing breakdown and black smoke. Because
of internal losses the Jab collector does not normally breakdown , but will
usually run rich on #1 and #2 when the butterfly is near fully opened.
At smaller throttle settings the butterfly turbulence probably contributes
to even distribution of the charge.
I discovered that it is not easy to design an intake to be fed from the end,
it should be fed from the bottom but I have no space.
Peter
_____
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel
Loveys
Sent: Wednesday, 14 January 2009 12:19 AM
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
The way to tell an over rich condition is to check the plugs. There will
always be a good dose of soot on them if you land immediately. The fuel
flow and pressure tests will show a rich condition too. Generally an over
rich condition makes the engine sluggish and you start to have problems as
you pull the throttle back as the plugs have to clear themselves enough to
keep the engine running.
One other problem you may have is low octane rating on the fuel. That could
sure cause your engine to get rough at top end rpm.
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Harris
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:51 AM
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
It sounds like it may be too rich under the load conditions at WOT cruise.
The fuel bowl is fitted with 2.25mm needle valve seat which is meant for
gravity feed, but they have selected the power needle as a compromise. If
you are using a fuel pump it may cause the needle valve seat to leak and
overfill the fuel bowl causing excessive rich mixture near max rpm.
Another cause of over rich mixture is due to the starting choke not fully
closing due to friction in the cable.
Peter
_____
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don
Honabach
Sent: Tuesday, 13 January 2009 4:03 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
I'm having an issue where during cruise flight if I go full throttle either
in straight and level or climb, the engine gets rough enough that it feels
like it will quit. At this point, I obviously don't want to push the issue
so I pull back on the throttle until the roughness goes away.
Interestingly, I have no problem with full throttle roughness on
take-off/climb-out.
I also did some additional testing today and found that if I ease real slow
into full throttle from cruise that I still get the roughness but not as bad
and that the RPM will increase up to ~2,9xx and then start to degrade as I
continue to add power along with additional roughness.
Background info:
Full Throttle Static RPM/Ground Run Up is ~2,800RPM. No issues with
roughness.
On my 601HDS, I have a 3300A with the Sensenich Carbon Prop (64"?
2A0J5R64Z-N) that was purchased from Jabiru USA/Pete K. back in 2006.
Any help greatly appreciated. I've sent this same question to Jabiru USA and
haven't gotten a response yet (sent last Thursday and sent another today
asking for status).
Initially thought it was the SCAT intake hose which I replaced with the
rubber 90 degree elbow. Same issue with either intake method.
Thanks!
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
I wonder why the Bing folks here in Kansas, I think it is,
recommended a 3.7 mm when I queried them about the gravity feed?
(Granted, they are not the engineers that you spoke with.) Mine has
worked really well since I went that route, which is not to say that
it wouldn't work better with the 2.25. When I had the 1.5 mm in
there, and pointed the nose up, in 10-15 seconds the thing would
starve for fuel...pointing it down cured the starvation. That was
with gravity feed. So I installed the recommended 3.7 mm, flow tested
it, (catching the fuel as it ran right through the needle seat) and
it would flow something like 13.5 gallons per hour, as I recall. I'm
wondering if there would be any benefit to switching to the 2.25mm
seat? It seems like too small is definitely bad, but too large I
cannot see as a problem...do you?
I've seen the effects that the rotation of the carb can have on the
EGT's, and I've even thought of "sharpening" that central vane, but
figured maybe Jab knew what they were doing leaving it rounded on the
leading edge....thoughts?
My air tube connection to the carb is a fiberglass 90 degree elbow
with vanes inside to separate the flow into 4 equal (I hope)
quadrants. This elbow allows the air to flow from straight above and
behind the carb. I couldn't see much difference after I installed the
vanes as opposed to having just the plain fiberglass tube. I used
the exact same tube, slicing it vertically, and installing the thin
fiberglass vanes...pics available if you'd like...then reassembling.
How's that FI coming, of is it done?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
ignition system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Jan 13, 2009, at 4:03 PM, Peter Harris wrote:
> <peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>
> Lynn
> According to the advice I got from the German Bing website engineer
> The float valve needle seat for gravity feed is 2.25 and for pump
> feed is
> 1.5mm. I tried the 1,5mm seat and found it very I would say too
> lean at
> cruise because Jab has selected the power needle using the 2.25
> seat/pump
> combination tuned for economy cruise.
> I conducted bench tests of the induction collector using a pressure
> spray
> gun and found that the alignment of the intake is absolutely
> critical due to
> the fact that inside the collector is a central vane. Any
> misalignment of
> the carb butterfly or of the carb on the hose attachment will cause
> the
> charge to favour one side or the other. If the distribution of the
> charge is
> bad the engine begins to "box" with uneven power strokes causing
> vibration
> (which I think may contribute to the flywheel bolts breakage). In
> an extreme
> case the engine may run bad rough.
> Likewise poor scat hose configuration could contribute to the issue
> and the
> effect is suddenly greatest at or near WOT.
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Tuesday, 13 January 2009 7:29 PM
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
>
> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> I've gone to gravity only in my 2200 high-wing Kitfox, removing the
> mechanical AND the electric pump (that I rarely used before), and
> installed the 3.7 mm float needle seat that Bing recommended. No
> fuel issues any more for me.
>
> I would think that if you DID have a pressure-related problem with
> the float needle/seat combo, that your suggestion of turning on the
> boost pump ...at altitude....would reveal it. It did for me, when I
> still had my electric pump. It was just too much pressure, so I
> removed it, went with the gravity-only, and the 3.7 mm seat.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
> ignition system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
> do not archive
>
>
> On Jan 13, 2009, at 1:55 AM, Don Honabach wrote:
>
>> Peter,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the quick reply.
>>
>>
>>
>> FYI, I have a low-wing design and during take-off I use an electric
>> boost pump but during transition to cruise I turn it off and just
>> use the engine driven mechanical fuel pump on the 3300A. Even with
>> the boost pump, I don't exceed 3PSI (at least as much as I can
>> trust the accuracy of the gauge at such low values and a narrow
>> range).
>>
>>
>>
>> Assuming the needle leaking is the issue, is there a fix for non-
>> gravity feed setups?
>>
>>
>>
>> As a side question, do those with gravity setups remove the engine
>> driven pump?
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm assuming that if I turn on the boost pump during cruise and if
>> I have a needle leak issue that the problem should be noticeable
>> sooner or should be worse as the increased pressure will cause more
>> leakage?
>>
>>
>>
>> I'll check the choke cable as well to make sure it is fully closing.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
>> jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Harris
>> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 23:21
>> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
>>
>>
>>
>> It sounds like it may be too rich under the load conditions at WOT
>> cruise.
>>
>> The fuel bowl is fitted with 2.25mm needle valve seat which is
>> meant for gravity feed, but they have selected the power needle as
>> a compromise. If you are using a fuel pump it may cause the needle
>> valve seat to leak and overfill the fuel bowl causing excessive
>> rich mixture near max rpm.
>>
>> Another cause of over rich mixture is due to the starting choke not
>> fully closing due to friction in the cable.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>
>> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
>> jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Honabach
>> Sent: Tuesday, 13 January 2009 4:03 PM
>> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm having an issue where during cruise flight if I go full
>> throttle either in straight and level or climb, the engine gets
>> rough enough that it feels like it will quit. At this point, I
>> obviously don't want to push the issue so I pull back on the
>> throttle until the roughness goes away.
>>
>>
>>
>> Interestingly, I have no problem with full throttle roughness on
>> take-off/climb-out.
>>
>>
>>
>> I also did some additional testing today and found that if I ease
>> real slow into full throttle from cruise that I still get the
>> roughness but not as bad and that the RPM will increase up to
>> ~2,9xx and then start to degrade as I continue to add power along
>> with additional roughness.
>>
>>
>>
>> Background info:
>>
>>
>>
>> Full Throttle Static RPM/Ground Run Up is ~2,800RPM. No issues with
>> roughness.
>>
>>
>>
>> On my 601HDS, I have a 3300A with the Sensenich Carbon Prop (64"?
>> 2A0J5R64Z-N) that was purchased from Jabiru USA/Pete K. back in 2006.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any help greatly appreciated. I've sent this same question to
>> Jabiru USA and haven't gotten a response yet (sent last Thursday
>> and sent another today asking for status).
>>
>>
>>
>> Initially thought it was the SCAT intake hose which I replaced with
>> the rubber 90 degree elbow. Same issue with either intake method.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Don Honabach
>>
>> Tempe, AZ
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List http://
>> forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> &nbssp; - The JabiruEngine-List Email Forum utilities such as
>> List Photoshare, and much much --> http://www.matronics.com/
>> Navigator?JabiruEngine-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com -
>> List Contribution Web generous nbsp; -->
>> http://www.matronics.com/c
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> 1/12/2009 07:04
>>
>> ============================================================ _-
>> ============================================================ _-
>> contribution_-
>> ===========================================================
>
>
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
Don,
Maybe your air intake system is acting - or is designed to act - as a ram
charged?
Contrary to what was stated before, you might be running LEAN, because your
jetting cannot compensate for additional air mass rammed in during cruise.
Failing that, check any and all rubber sleeves you might have in your intake
manifold. Just one allowing "false" air into the intake tube will make your
engine rattle and shake in a frightening manner!
Miguel Azevedo
N8714D
PA22/20-150
On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 1:03 AM, Don Honabach <don.honabach@pcperfect.com>wrote:
> I'm having an issue where during cruise flight if I go full throttle
> either in straight and level or climb, the engine gets rough enough that it
> feels like it will quit. At this point, I obviously don't want to push the
> issue so I pull back on the throttle until the roughness goes away.
>
>
> Interestingly, I have no problem with full throttle roughness on
> take-off/climb-out.
>
>
> I also did some additional testing today and found that if I ease real slow
> into full throttle from cruise that I still get the roughness but not as bad
> and that the RPM will increase up to ~2,9xx and then start to degrade as I
> continue to add power along with additional roughness.
>
>
> Background info:
>
>
> Full Throttle Static RPM/Ground Run Up is ~2,800RPM. No issues with
> roughness.
>
>
> On my 601HDS, I have a 3300A with the Sensenich Carbon Prop (64"?
> 2A0J5R64Z-N) that was purchased from Jabiru USA/Pete K. back in 2006.
>
>
> Any help greatly appreciated. I've sent this same question to Jabiru USA
> and haven't gotten a response yet (sent last Thursday and sent another today
> asking for status).
>
>
> Initially thought it was the SCAT intake hose which I replaced with the
> rubber 90 degree elbow. Same issue with either intake method.
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Don Honabach
>
> Tempe, AZ
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
Lynn I think your 3.7mm seat should be fine with gravity feed. I found
removal of the 2.25 seat and fitting the 1.5 seat made a very big difference
to mixture at the higher throttle settings using the mech pump. Remove and
refit was not easy, I made a screw puller and heated the carb to about
80degC. The seat is a tight interference fit.
I am continuing with the fuel injection twin injector throttle body. At this
stage no additional power but total control of mixture. I think the power
output is limited by restricted flow through the Jab induction collector,
but had problems using a tapered plenum due to the effect near WOT when most
of the charge is delivered to the end into #1 and 2. I may spend some time
building a bottom feed plenum later.
I get very little increase in power over the last inch of throttle, do you
also?
I am also using a Navman fuel flow indicator and find it one of the most
useful instruments especially for cross country when you can adjust throttle
to get the desired fuel flow rate and also read fuel remaining accurate to
2%.
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
Matteson
Sent: Wednesday, 14 January 2009 8:29 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
I wonder why the Bing folks here in Kansas, I think it is,
recommended a 3.7 mm when I queried them about the gravity feed?
(Granted, they are not the engineers that you spoke with.) Mine has
worked really well since I went that route, which is not to say that
it wouldn't work better with the 2.25. When I had the 1.5 mm in
there, and pointed the nose up, in 10-15 seconds the thing would
starve for fuel...pointing it down cured the starvation. That was
with gravity feed. So I installed the recommended 3.7 mm, flow tested
it, (catching the fuel as it ran right through the needle seat) and
it would flow something like 13.5 gallons per hour, as I recall. I'm
wondering if there would be any benefit to switching to the 2.25mm
seat? It seems like too small is definitely bad, but too large I
cannot see as a problem...do you?
I've seen the effects that the rotation of the carb can have on the
EGT's, and I've even thought of "sharpening" that central vane, but
figured maybe Jab knew what they were doing leaving it rounded on the
leading edge....thoughts?
My air tube connection to the carb is a fiberglass 90 degree elbow
with vanes inside to separate the flow into 4 equal (I hope)
quadrants. This elbow allows the air to flow from straight above and
behind the carb. I couldn't see much difference after I installed the
vanes as opposed to having just the plain fiberglass tube. I used
the exact same tube, slicing it vertically, and installing the thin
fiberglass vanes...pics available if you'd like...then reassembling.
How's that FI coming, of is it done?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
ignition system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Jan 13, 2009, at 4:03 PM, Peter Harris wrote:
> <peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>
> Lynn
> According to the advice I got from the German Bing website engineer
> The float valve needle seat for gravity feed is 2.25 and for pump
> feed is
> 1.5mm. I tried the 1,5mm seat and found it very I would say too
> lean at
> cruise because Jab has selected the power needle using the 2.25
> seat/pump
> combination tuned for economy cruise.
> I conducted bench tests of the induction collector using a pressure
> spray
> gun and found that the alignment of the intake is absolutely
> critical due to
> the fact that inside the collector is a central vane. Any
> misalignment of
> the carb butterfly or of the carb on the hose attachment will cause
> the
> charge to favour one side or the other. If the distribution of the
> charge is
> bad the engine begins to "box" with uneven power strokes causing
> vibration
> (which I think may contribute to the flywheel bolts breakage). In
> an extreme
> case the engine may run bad rough.
> Likewise poor scat hose configuration could contribute to the issue
> and the
> effect is suddenly greatest at or near WOT.
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Tuesday, 13 January 2009 7:29 PM
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
>
> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> I've gone to gravity only in my 2200 high-wing Kitfox, removing the
> mechanical AND the electric pump (that I rarely used before), and
> installed the 3.7 mm float needle seat that Bing recommended. No
> fuel issues any more for me.
>
> I would think that if you DID have a pressure-related problem with
> the float needle/seat combo, that your suggestion of turning on the
> boost pump ...at altitude....would reveal it. It did for me, when I
> still had my electric pump. It was just too much pressure, so I
> removed it, went with the gravity-only, and the 3.7 mm seat.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
> ignition system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
> do not archive
>
>
> On Jan 13, 2009, at 1:55 AM, Don Honabach wrote:
>
>> Peter,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the quick reply.
>>
>>
>>
>> FYI, I have a low-wing design and during take-off I use an electric
>> boost pump but during transition to cruise I turn it off and just
>> use the engine driven mechanical fuel pump on the 3300A. Even with
>> the boost pump, I don't exceed 3PSI (at least as much as I can
>> trust the accuracy of the gauge at such low values and a narrow
>> range).
>>
>>
>>
>> Assuming the needle leaking is the issue, is there a fix for non-
>> gravity feed setups?
>>
>>
>>
>> As a side question, do those with gravity setups remove the engine
>> driven pump?
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm assuming that if I turn on the boost pump during cruise and if
>> I have a needle leak issue that the problem should be noticeable
>> sooner or should be worse as the increased pressure will cause more
>> leakage?
>>
>>
>>
>> I'll check the choke cable as well to make sure it is fully closing.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
>> jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Harris
>> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 23:21
>> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
>>
>>
>>
>> It sounds like it may be too rich under the load conditions at WOT
>> cruise.
>>
>> The fuel bowl is fitted with 2.25mm needle valve seat which is
>> meant for gravity feed, but they have selected the power needle as
>> a compromise. If you are using a fuel pump it may cause the needle
>> valve seat to leak and overfill the fuel bowl causing excessive
>> rich mixture near max rpm.
>>
>> Another cause of over rich mixture is due to the starting choke not
>> fully closing due to friction in the cable.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>
>> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
>> jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Honabach
>> Sent: Tuesday, 13 January 2009 4:03 PM
>> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm having an issue where during cruise flight if I go full
>> throttle either in straight and level or climb, the engine gets
>> rough enough that it feels like it will quit. At this point, I
>> obviously don't want to push the issue so I pull back on the
>> throttle until the roughness goes away.
>>
>>
>>
>> Interestingly, I have no problem with full throttle roughness on
>> take-off/climb-out.
>>
>>
>>
>> I also did some additional testing today and found that if I ease
>> real slow into full throttle from cruise that I still get the
>> roughness but not as bad and that the RPM will increase up to
>> ~2,9xx and then start to degrade as I continue to add power along
>> with additional roughness.
>>
>>
>>
>> Background info:
>>
>>
>>
>> Full Throttle Static RPM/Ground Run Up is ~2,800RPM. No issues with
>> roughness.
>>
>>
>>
>> On my 601HDS, I have a 3300A with the Sensenich Carbon Prop (64"?
>> 2A0J5R64Z-N) that was purchased from Jabiru USA/Pete K. back in 2006.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any help greatly appreciated. I've sent this same question to
>> Jabiru USA and haven't gotten a response yet (sent last Thursday
>> and sent another today asking for status).
>>
>>
>>
>> Initially thought it was the SCAT intake hose which I replaced with
>> the rubber 90 degree elbow. Same issue with either intake method.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Don Honabach
>>
>> Tempe, AZ
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List http://
>> forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> &nbssp; - The JabiruEngine-List Email Forum utilities such as
>> List Photoshare, and much much --> http://www.matronics.com/
>> Navigator?JabiruEngine-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com -
>> List Contribution Web generous nbsp; -->
>> http://www.matronics.com/c
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> 1/12/2009 07:04
>>
>> ============================================================ _-
>> ============================================================ _-
>> contribution_-
>> ===========================================================
>
>
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
Don:
I believe Jon's DVD "3300 Engine Installation" video may have the
answer to your problem. This was shot by Jon at one of Pete's engine
installation seminars.
Pete says on the video that at wide-open-throttle if you are getting
too much fuel it would result in cooler EGT's and shaking. If your
EGT's are closer to 1,000F than 1300F it is running cool due to the
rich mixture. He says the solution is a smaller main jet. He says
about two-thirds of the Jabiru engines have had to decrease their jet
size. At another point he says they are shipped with 285's and you
should ask for the next lower. bingcarb .com has a good book on the
carb and it helped me with carb problems on our first 3300 on a 601.
Pete also said that they would be carrying the smaller jets but you
can also talk to the experts at Bing which I believe is in Kansas.
For information on the 3300 installation I think Jon's DVD is a must
have. Five hours of excellent information.
Stan Challgren
701/3300
Evergreen, CO
On Jan 12, 2009, at 23:03 , Don Honabach wrote:
> I'm having an issue where during cruise flight if I go full throttle
> either in straight and level or climb, the engine gets rough enough
> that it feels like it will quit. At this point, I obviously don't
> want to push the issue so I pull back on the throttle until the
> roughness goes away.
>
> Interestingly, I have no problem with full throttle roughness on
> take-off/climb-out.
>
> I also did some additional testing today and found that if I ease
> real slow into full throttle from cruise that I still get the
> roughness but not as bad and that the RPM will increase up to ~2,9xx
> and then start to degrade as I continue to add power along with
> additional roughness.
>
> Background info:
>
> Full Throttle Static RPM/Ground Run Up is ~2,800RPM. No issues with
> roughness.
>
> On my 601HDS, I have a 3300A with the Sensenich Carbon Prop (64"?
> 2A0J5R64Z-N) that was purchased from Jabiru USA/Pete K. back in 2006.
>
> Any help greatly appreciated. I've sent this same question to Jabiru
> USA and haven't gotten a response yet (sent last Thursday and sent
> another today asking for status).
>
> Initially thought it was the SCAT intake hose which I replaced with
> the rubber 90 degree elbow. Same issue with either intake method.
>
> Thanks!
> Don Honabach
> Tempe, AZ
>
>
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|