Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:12 AM - Re: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (Lynn Matteson)
2. 05:17 AM - Re: Full Thorttle Roughness Issue. (zeprep251@aol.com)
3. 06:24 AM - Full Thorttle Roughness Issue... (David Brown)
4. 06:24 AM - Re: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (Andy Silvester)
5. 06:25 AM - Re: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (j. davis)
6. 07:19 AM - Re: Full Thorttle Roughness Issue. (Don Honabach)
7. 07:30 AM - Re: Full Thorttle Roughness Issue. (Don Honabach)
8. 08:20 AM - Sonex Aircraft Responds to Peter Harris (Sonex Tech Support)
9. 08:22 AM - Re: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (Joe Ronco)
10. 09:57 AM - Re: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (Lynn Matteson)
11. 12:47 PM - Re: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (Peter Harris)
12. 03:08 PM - Re: Sonex Aircraft Responds to Peter Harris (JohnDRead@aol.com)
13. 03:24 PM - Re: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (Wayne Flowers)
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| Subject: | Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
But do you remember, Andy, when I reported back in about April of
last year that my rubber coupler had a built-up ridge that filled
this gap? I mentioned this and you said that the coupler supplier
must have made this change in the later models. Here is picture of
that ridge. It is the square-ish ridge between the two humps that fit
into the grooves of the carb and the intake adapter.
It is a bit hard to visualize because of the coupler being all black,
but it's there. I show this to let folks know that maybe by changing
to this style coupler that maybe some of the imbalance might be
modified in their engines if they presently have the coupler which
doesn't have this "gap-filling" ridge. What do you think?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 15, 2009, at 10:10 AM, Andy Silvester wrote:
> <andy@suncoastjabiru.com>
>
> Lynn,
>
> Actually, the gap between the end of the carb. and the start of the
> intake
> adapter can be a bit of an issue; the rubber coupler which bridges
> this gap,
> which is necessary for vibration isolation, creates a definite groove
> (annulus?) into which liquid fuel floods and then exits at any angle
> depending on the influence of the airstream going through. One of
> our OEM
> customers did extensive testing using a clear plastic transition and
> reported that, at the point of exit from the carb, the fuel is
> still very
> much in liquid form, and not the homogenous fuel/air vapour we
> might expect
> from the theory. Of course, the mixture becomes more (er) mixed as it
> travels up the intake tubes but Peter is absolutely right; there is
> little
> opportunity for the fuel / air 'mix' to divide itself 50/50 by the
> vertical
> splitter in the induction in the short distance it travels from the
> jet,
> especially if the air going through the carb. is at all twisting.
> This extra
> (though small) reservoir in the coupling-gap therefore adds to the
> uncertainty of how the mixture splits left-and-right, often leading
> to an
> imbalance of mixture at the cylinders. The same OEM fitted oxygen
> (lambda)
> sensors on the 3300's combined exhaust headers (i.e. before the
> current
> individual pipe setup), and found that there could be a ratio of
> 10:1 on one
> side and as high as 16:1 on the other, where Jabiru's own reported
> 'ideal'
> ratio is about 14:1. Interestingly, the lean and rich sides would
> swap over
> as rpm increased, more-or-less proving the view that fuel
> distribution was
> uneven before the splitter. I saw graphs of this a couple of years
> ago, and
> the source of the analysis is impeccable. Now that we have
> comprehensive
> engine monitoring and EGTs on all cylinders, it's easy to see these
> effects
> through the rev. range as you fly. Even better are monitors like
> the GRT
> Horizon/EFIS instrument which can graph EGT in real-time so you can
> see the
> effects of mixture distribution at different power settings.
> As I suggested in the post a while back, we found some success by
> inserting
> a filler-ring made of rigid plastic (about the same consistency as the
> coupler) which would fill said gap and provide a smoother bore. It
> wasn't a
> complete fix, but definitely improved mixture distribution.
> Ideally, the
> carb delivering into a plenum about 30% of the engine's cubic capacity
> should give a better opportunity for fuel and air to mix, but space
> and
> neatness of design precludes this. Jabiru's original plenum on the
> 2200 and
> very few 3300s wasn't a success as the fuel in liquid state would
> tend to be
> thrown to the front of the plenum and then run along the walls and
> up the
> front two intake tubes, so the front cylinders were richer than the
> back.
> Now, if the intake tubes protruded into the plenum by a few mm, the
> liquid
> fuel wouldn't run up 'em, would it?
>
> The experts at Jabiru were fed all this information at the time,
> but no
> doubt had better reasons than me for keeping the design, and why
> not? It's
> theirs!
>
> Andy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: 15 January 2009 11:23
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
>
> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Andy alerted us to this problem, and when I looked at mine last year,
> I found that there was a cast-in ridge that effectively bridges that
> gap between the carb and the plenum. Although not a smooth
> transition, it does fill the gap and thus avoids the "groove or step"
> you mentioned. My 2200 serial number is 2062, delivered in August
> 2005, just to put it in a time perspective.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
> do not archive
>
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| Subject: | Re: Full Thorttle Roughness Issue. |
Here is an interesting web site,if? they only would supply a set up for the Jabiru.
(Experimental fuel injection.com).Lots of help for Rotax.
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Honabach <don@pcperfect.com>
Sent: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 8:27 pm
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Full Thorttle Roughness Issue.
Clive,
?
I've had some positive results in
fixing my roughness issue, but I'm still working out the details.
?
Here's what I've got so far...
?
I appear to have an air intake
issue. Flying without the air intake system and just the carb open to the
cowling area and the plane flies extremely smooth. This fixed the roughness for
everything except the last 1/4" of throttle travel. Repitching the prop so
I had an in flight max of ~3300 RPM fixed the last 1/4" of roughness.
Before the pitch change, my max out in straight and level was 3000 RPM.
?
I'm going to be installing
various modified air intake setups over the next few weeks and will post my
results.
?
For what it's worth, after
re-pitching and flying without the air intake system, the plane is amazing.
I've gained about 5 to 10 MPH in speed and 300 feet per minute or more in climb
and the engine is much smoother in all RPM ranges. I'm really excited about
getting a good intake system designed :) now that I'm seen the "other side"
of this engine.
?
Don
?
?
From:
owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James,
Clive R
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 15:22
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Full Thorttle Roughness Issue.
?
Don, I don't have a functioning EGT but what you describe with RPM
and roughness is just what I'm experiencing on my Esqual with?a 3300
Jabiru #1460. I've only got 15 hours on the engine and am chasing other issues
for now so I'm very interested in the resolution. From what I've heard in the
past and read about the Bing I'm in the main jet size change solution camp.
Very interested in how you get on working the solution.
?
Regards, Clive
?
From:
owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of Don Honabach
Sent: 14 January 2009 16:19
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Full Thorttle Roughness Issue...
I just wanted to take? moment and thank everyone that
responded to my question both on-list and off (WOW - just absolutely amazing
the response - THANK YOU!).
?
>From the various suggestions I decided that I needed to do a
bit more investigation...
?
During take-off AND WOT the EGTs on the right side of my
engine are significantly higher than the left. The max difference being ~1400
versus 1100F. However, during cruise, everything tends to even out but now my
left side (or at least cylinders #6 and #4) have higher EGTs than the right
side in general (~1359 ?verus 1290).
?
What is interesting is that my max RPM on take-off at WOT is
~2,850 and there is no roughness at all despite the same EGT profile. In
contrast, when I do WOT in cruise the RPM maxes out at 3,000 and the roughness
is pretty bad and starts at about 2900RPM and gets worse as the RPM increases.
Also, pulling back so that the RPM is less than 2900 always gets rid of the
roughness.
?
So while the EGT profiles are essentially the same for both
WOT situations, it would appear that when the engine is capable of going above
2900 RPM that the roughness occurs.
?
Any thoughts?
?
If interested, here are the two plot graphs for take-off and
full power cruise:
?
http://support.pcperfect.com/EGTs-TakeOff.pdf
http://support.pcperfect.com/EGTs-WOT-Cruise.pdf
?
Thanks!
Don
?
?
?
?
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
http://forums.matronics.com???????? - List Contribution Web generous nbsp;??????????????????????? --> http://www.matronics.com/c
?
No virus
found in this incoming message.
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1/15/2009
07:46
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| Subject: | Full Thorttle Roughness Issue... |
List,
On a similar note that don has observed, a month or so ago I was doing a
touch and go when I inadvertently left the carb heat on. While making
the climb out I noticed that the EGT's and CHT's had all evened out and
looked the best that they ever had. I now wonder if it was warm air
causing better atomization, or just the air intake system. Has any one
else noticed this and if so what are you thoughts.
David
N601EX Jab3300
I appear to have an air intake issue. Flying without the air intake
system and just the carb open to the cowling area and the plane flies
extremely smooth. This fixed the roughness for everything except the
last 1/4" of throttle travel. Repitching the prop so I had an in flight
max of ~3300 RPM fixed the last 1/4" of roughness. Before the pitch
change, my max out in straight and level was 3000 RPM.
I'm going to be installing various modified air intake setups over the
next few weeks and will post my results.
For what it's worth, after re-pitching and flying without the air intake
system, the plane is amazing. I've gained about 5 to 10 MPH in speed and
300 feet per minute or more in climb and the engine is much smoother in
all RPM ranges. I'm really excited about getting a good intake system
designed :) now that I'm seen the "other side" of this engine.
Don
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| Subject: | Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
You're right, Lynn, apologies. Must be advancing years or British beer for
the last couple of months that have taken their toll. Back in Brazil very
soon with a healthier diet and more brain exercise, no doubt. There may
well be others with the older couplers and the 'gap' who might be interested
though. Unfortunately, the only way to find out is to remove it and look
inside.
Cheers, Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
Matteson
Sent: 16 January 2009 11:08
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
But do you remember, Andy, when I reported back in about April of last year
that my rubber coupler had a built-up ridge that filled this gap? I
mentioned this and you said that the coupler supplier must have made this
change in the later models. Here is picture of that ridge. It is the
square-ish ridge between the two humps that fit into the grooves of the carb
and the intake adapter.
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| Subject: | Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
Peter Harris wrote:
>
> J
> I would recommend against using Aerocarb especially on the J3300 based on
> personal experience. I was supplied with an Aerocarb with no Teflon liner.
> The slide worked on anodized metal to metal and jammed hard.
> The slide is pulled and pushed by an outrigged lever which causes the slide
> to twist and jam whenever pressure is applied. The attachment to cable is
> off centre and not even co planar with the slide.
> A Teflon liner is offered on the website but my several requests were
> ignored.
> I packed it with grease but it still jammed under the vacuum at low throttle
> settings and any attempt to quickly open throttle for a missed approach
> makes it jam harder because of the offset cable attachment.
> I attempted to discuss changes to the design but was abused. I have a copy
> of the correspondence.
> When I asked for a refund I was told to sell it on eBay.
> I would not have the conscience to give it away .
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of j. davis
> Sent: Friday, 16 January 2009 10:45 AM
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
>
>
> Peter Harris wrote:
> <peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>> Andy,
>> That is a very informative post.
>> I have been testing with a twin injector throttle body feeding an
>> unobstructed plenum, then for comparison feeding the Jab collector. My
>> fuel/air mix should be better, in fact I tried 60PSI for greater
>> atomization, but the charge entered the plenum and too much of the fuel
>> carried through to over richen #1 and 2 near WOT.
>> This is an issue independent of the splitter or the type of turbulence.
>> I think it is happening because near WOT a proportion of the fuel droplets
>> have enough energy to accelerate through the plenum (or the collector)
> until
>> they reach the end.
>> This is similar to the principle used by Dyson when dust is separated from
>> the air stream by using it's kinetic energy in a cyclone.
>> After endless tests I think the problem is due to the fact that we have an
>> end fed plenum (or collector).
>> I plan to reconfigure my plenum for bottom feed similar to the 0-200, but
>> headers will still be unequal and it will not be easy to target the charge
>> for uniform distribution between the 6 outlets.
>> Peter
>>
>
> Just wondering... there seems to be a preponderance of posting on this
> list that has to do with Bing carb
> tuning/jetting/adjusting/modifying/etc. Has anyone considered an
> alternative? AeroConversion's AeroCarb comes to mind :') I'm quite happy
> with mine (Sonex/3300/AeroCarb), and I know that there are many other
> Sonex/3300 drivers that are, also.
>
>
Yes, you had an early model, and there were some sticky slide issues
back then. (owners of the early models can get them refitted by Sonex) I
have a newer model, and combined with the AeroConversions Throttle
Quadrant which works with the newest AeroCarbs fitted with optional pull
control (again, older AeroCarbs may be upgraded for pull control),
sticky slides are a thing of the past, as far as I can tell.
There was a period of needle height adjustment that needed to be done to
get the right mixture over the full range, but once set up, shouldn't
need to be done much, if any, again. Certainly not seasonally.
I've got nothing against Bings, had two of them on my 912, never needed
to touch them (except for the occasional synchronizing). Got em on my
Beemer bike(s), too. I was just attracted to the simplicity and
efficiency of the AeroCarb, and so far, I'm not disappointed.
--
Regards, J.
-------------------------------------------------
J. Davis, M.Sc. (computer science)
*NIX consulting, SysAdmin
-------------------------------------------------
The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck, is the day they
make a vacuum cleaner.
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| Subject: | Full Thorttle Roughness Issue. |
David,
Great tail number, my is N601DX :)
It may be that the warm arm or additional air input to the airbox causes
less turbulence at the carb intake and distributes the air/fuel mix
better ???
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David
Brown
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 07:23
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Full Thorttle Roughness Issue.
<dbrown@avecc.com>
List,
On a similar note that don has observed, a month or so ago I was doing a
touch and go when I inadvertently left the carb heat on. While making
the climb out I noticed that the EGT's and CHT's had all evened out and
looked the best that they ever had. I now wonder if it was warm air
causing better atomization, or just the air intake system. Has any one
else noticed this and if so what are you thoughts.
David
N601EX Jab3300
I appear to have an air intake issue. Flying without the air intake
system and just the carb open to the cowling area and the plane flies
extremely smooth. This fixed the roughness for everything except the
last 1/4" of throttle travel. Repitching the prop so I had an in flight
max of ~3300 RPM fixed the last 1/4" of roughness. Before the pitch
change, my max out in straight and level was 3000 RPM.
I'm going to be installing various modified air intake setups over the
next few weeks and will post my results.
For what it's worth, after re-pitching and flying without the air intake
system, the plane is amazing. I've gained about 5 to 10 MPH in speed and
300 feet per minute or more in climb and the engine is much smoother in
all RPM ranges. I'm really excited about getting a good intake system
designed :) now that I'm seen the "other side" of this engine.
Don
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
1/15/2009 07:46
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| Subject: | Full Thorttle Roughness Issue. |
Clive,
I don't know if it matters, but I also plugged up the air intake scat
inlet with a hand towel to prevent a bunch of air blowing right behind
the carb intake for my tests. (My intake output sits on the firewall and
the output points at angle towards the carb.)
Don
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
James, Clive R
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 00:04
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Full Thorttle Roughness Issue.
Thanks Don, mine is just the last bit and only at high revs. In the
climb at 2800 it's smooth enough but then that a different situation to
3000 plus.
I will drop off the scat from the carb for elimination of that issue,
that's a great idea.
I have oversized scat tube on the carb which I'm hoping will help with
airflow but then I suppose that could be the cause.
Regards, Clive
________________________________
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don
Honabach
Sent: 16 January 2009 04:27
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Full Thorttle Roughness Issue.
Clive,
I've had some positive results in fixing my roughness issue, but I'm
still working out the details.
Here's what I've got so far...
I appear to have an air intake issue. Flying without the air intake
system and just the carb open to the cowling area and the plane flies
extremely smooth. This fixed the roughness for everything except the
last 1/4" of throttle travel. Repitching the prop so I had an in flight
max of ~3300 RPM fixed the last 1/4" of roughness. Before the pitch
change, my max out in straight and level was 3000 RPM.
I'm going to be installing various modified air intake setups over the
next few weeks and will post my results.
For what it's worth, after re-pitching and flying without the air intake
system, the plane is amazing. I've gained about 5 to 10 MPH in speed and
300 feet per minute or more in climb and the engine is much smoother in
all RPM ranges. I'm really excited about getting a good intake system
designed :) now that I'm seen the "other side" of this engine.
Don
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
James, Clive R
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 15:22
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Full Thorttle Roughness Issue.
Don, I don't have a functioning EGT but what you describe with RPM and
roughness is just what I'm experiencing on my Esqual with a 3300 Jabiru
#1460. I've only got 15 hours on the engine and am chasing other issues
for now so I'm very interested in the resolution. From what I've heard
in the past and read about the Bing I'm in the main jet size change
solution camp. Very interested in how you get on working the solution.
Regards, Clive
________________________________
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don
Honabach
Sent: 14 January 2009 16:19
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Full Thorttle Roughness Issue...
I just wanted to take moment and thank everyone that responded to my
question both on-list and off (WOW - just absolutely amazing the
response - THANK YOU!).
>From the various suggestions I decided that I needed to do a bit more
investigation...
During take-off AND WOT the EGTs on the right side of my engine are
significantly higher than the left. The max difference being ~1400
versus 1100F. However, during cruise, everything tends to even out but
now my left side (or at least cylinders #6 and #4) have higher EGTs than
the right side in general (~1359 verus 1290).
What is interesting is that my max RPM on take-off at WOT is ~2,850 and
there is no roughness at all despite the same EGT profile. In contrast,
when I do WOT in cruise the RPM maxes out at 3,000 and the roughness is
pretty bad and starts at about 2900RPM and gets worse as the RPM
increases. Also, pulling back so that the RPM is less than 2900 always
gets rid of the roughness.
So while the EGT profiles are essentially the same for both WOT
situations, it would appear that when the engine is capable of going
above 2900 RPM that the roughness occurs.
Any thoughts?
If interested, here are the two plot graphs for take-off and full power
cruise:
http://support.pcperfect.com/EGTs-TakeOff.pdf
http://support.pcperfect.com/EGTs-WOT-Cruise.pdf
Thanks!
Don
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| Subject: | Sonex Aircraft Responds to Peter Harris |
Good Morning Jabiru Enthusiast,
We at Sonex Aircraft LLC and AeroConversions LLC like to remain "hands-off"
on the public lists but we do feel it is necessary to respond to Peter
Harris (whose posting is copied at the bottom of this response) directly in
this public forum.
Specifically:
Mr. Harris was supplied an AeroCarb which had an anodized aluminum slide
with a thin delrin anti-friction gasket. He states he was supplied an
Aerocarb with "no teflon liner". We have never offered a "teflon liner",
though earlier AeroCarbs had teflon coated slides with no delrin gasket.
Those were discontinued in favor of the anodized slide delrin gasket, which
we continue to supply as standard equipment. His claims that we offer a
teflon liner on the website are simply incorrect. He is perhaps confusing
the delrin gasket with a "teflon slide".
The outrigged throttle attachment performs well when properly installed.
Proper installation is described in full detail in the AeroCarb's
installation manual, including specific part numbers for rod ends, throttle
cables, etc. Current AeroCarbs are shipped with an additional, alternative
throttle connection which eliminates any chance of binding caused by
improper installation, but requires a reversing throttle quadrant.
Mr. Harris packed his AeroCarb with grease. Grease may be great on bulldozer
tracks and railroad car couplers but has no place in an AeroCarb.
We stand behind our products 100%. We asked Mr. Harris to return his
AeroCarb for a free warranty inspection. He declined, stating it was "futile
to return the carb unless you are willing to resolve the design issues". We
asked for photos of his installation and they were never provided. Mr.
Harris declined to accept the help we were offering and was clear he would
not have been happy with any effort we would have made short of redesigning
our product to his specific desires.
Here is the full text of the final email sent (March 9, 2007) from the Sonex
Aircraft tech support desk to Mr. Harris:
---Begin
Hi Peter,
We have more experience than anyone with the AeroCarb. Your binding is not
normal which means there is an installation error or a defective part. We
are asking you once more to return the carb for a warranty inspection, and
to send us photos of your installation. Barring that we are unable to help
you.
If you you do not wish to take advantage of the warranty service/inspection
of your AeroCarb, then we ask that you do not advise others on how to "fix"
or install their AeroCarb, and when sharing your experience with others
please be sure to tell them that we asked for the carb back for a warranty
inspection and asked for photos to help diagnose your installation. We are
not aware of any unresolved AeroCarb problems from customers who were
willing to install the Aerocarb per our instructions and/or return their
carb for inspection when problems occurred. We do know of people who have
refused to work with us and have either given up on their Aerocarb, or have
gone to great and unnecessary lengths to "fix" it.
We stand behind our products 100%, for the safety of others, which is why we
have repeatedly asked for photos of your installation and the return of your
AeroCarb for inspection.
---End
We have supported hundreds of AeroCarb installations on a wide variety of
aircraft and engines. I have personally flown my AeroCarb-equipped Jabiru
3300-powered Sonex over 400 hours in the last 4.5 years. It bears repeating
- no one has more experience with the AeroCarb than we do - and no one is
more qualified than us to support our product.
This will be our only post on the topic. If you have questions about the
AeroCarb we encourage you to visit our websites:
www.aeroconversions.com
www.sonexaircraft.com
Or email us directly at the addresses listed below.
Blue Skies,
Kerry Fores
Sonex Aircraft LLC
PO Box 2521
Oshkosh, WI 54903-2521
Tech Line: (920) 230-TECH (8324)
Mon, Wed. and Fri. 10 AM to 12 AM and 2PM to 4PM CT
Orders and General Info:
Ph.920-231-8297
Fax (920) 426-8333
http://www.sonexaircraft.com
Please use the following e-mail addresses to Contact Sonex Aircraft:
Sales Info: sales@sonexaircraft.com
Orders: orders@sonexaircraft.com
Accounting: accounting@sonexaircraft.com
Tech Support: tech@sonexaircraft.com
___________________________________________
Subject: RE: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
From: Peter Harris (peterjfharris@bigpond.com)
J
I would recommend against using Aerocarb especially on the J3300 based on
personal experience. I was supplied with an Aerocarb with no Teflon liner.
The slide worked on anodized metal to metal and jammed hard.
The slide is pulled and pushed by an outrigged lever which causes the slide
to twist and jam whenever pressure is applied. The attachment to cable is
off centre and not even co planar with the slide.
A Teflon liner is offered on the website but my several requests were
ignored.
I packed it with grease but it still jammed under the vacuum at low throttle
settings and any attempt to quickly open throttle for a missed approach
makes it jam harder because of the offset cable attachment.
I attempted to discuss changes to the design but was abused. I have a copy
of the correspondence.
When I asked for a refund I was told to sell it on eBay.
I would not have the conscience to give it away .
Peter
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
Or you could trade it in for a new UL Power (www.ulpower.com) Model UL350i
(same or better performance as the 3300) and get EFI/FADEC as standard. No
messing with carburetors, carb heat or carb ice, fuel distribution etc. ULP
has also introduced redundancy options for the ECU.
See: http://www.ulpower.com/ul260i-qa-ecu.htm. Click on link at bottom of
page for schematics of optional ECU arrangements.
See attachments for preliminary UL350i specifications and performance. ULP
is fine tuning/optimizing the UL350i design with release to the market
expected 2Q/3Q 2009.
Joe R
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don
Honabach
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 9:05 PM
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
I'd love to hear any real world results of the AeroCarb on Zenith 601s.
I also personally would love a fuel ejected fully computerized control
setup for the 3300 as well!!!!!
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of j.
davis
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 17:45
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
<jd@lawsonimaging.ca>
Peter Harris wrote:
<peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>
> Andy,
> That is a very informative post.
> I have been testing with a twin injector throttle body feeding an
> unobstructed plenum, then for comparison feeding the Jab collector. My
> fuel/air mix should be better, in fact I tried 60PSI for greater
> atomization, but the charge entered the plenum and too much of the
fuel
> carried through to over richen #1 and 2 near WOT.
> This is an issue independent of the splitter or the type of
turbulence.
> I think it is happening because near WOT a proportion of the fuel
droplets
> have enough energy to accelerate through the plenum (or the collector)
until
> they reach the end.
> This is similar to the principle used by Dyson when dust is separated
from
> the air stream by using it's kinetic energy in a cyclone.
> After endless tests I think the problem is due to the fact that we
have an
> end fed plenum (or collector).
> I plan to reconfigure my plenum for bottom feed similar to the 0-200,
but
> headers will still be unequal and it will not be easy to target the
charge
> for uniform distribution between the 6 outlets.
> Peter
>
Just wondering... there seems to be a preponderance of posting on this
list that has to do with Bing carb
tuning/jetting/adjusting/modifying/etc. Has anyone considered an
alternative? AeroConversion's AeroCarb comes to mind :') I'm quite happy
with mine (Sonex/3300/AeroCarb), and I know that there are many other
Sonex/3300 drivers that are, also.
--
Regards, J.
-------------------------------------------------
J. Davis, M.Sc. (computer science)
*NIX consulting, SysAdmin
-------------------------------------------------
The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck, is the day they
make a vacuum cleaner.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
1/15/2009 07:46
Message 10
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|
| Subject: | Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
"Back in Brazil"? R U UK'ing it now?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 16, 2009, at 9:24 AM, Andy Silvester wrote:
> <andy@suncoastjabiru.com>
>
> You're right, Lynn, apologies. Must be advancing years or British
> beer for
> the last couple of months that have taken their toll. Back in
> Brazil very
> soon with a healthier diet and more brain exercise, no doubt.
> There may
> well be others with the older couplers and the 'gap' who might be
> interested
> though. Unfortunately, the only way to find out is to remove it and
> look
> inside.
> Cheers, Andy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: 16 January 2009 11:08
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
>
> But do you remember, Andy, when I reported back in about April of
> last year
> that my rubber coupler had a built-up ridge that filled this gap? I
> mentioned this and you said that the coupler supplier must have
> made this
> change in the later models. Here is picture of that ridge. It is the
> square-ish ridge between the two humps that fit into the grooves of
> the carb
> and the intake adapter.
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
J
The throttle quadrant does nothing to solve the basic design fault which is
due to the cable attachment off centre and not co planar causing the slide
to twist when moved, and the increased load due to friction on the slide
when it is moved at low throttle settings.
But it is not only the design issues but also the attitude of the CEO as he
was not prepared to supply me with the Teflon insert listed on his web site
and resorted to personal abuse when I suggested some design changes that
would solve the problem.
There have been engine failures and a forced landing due to jammed slides.
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of j. davis
Sent: Saturday, 17 January 2009 12:25 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
Peter Harris wrote:
<peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>
> J
> I would recommend against using Aerocarb especially on the J3300 based on
> personal experience. I was supplied with an Aerocarb with no Teflon liner.
> The slide worked on anodized metal to metal and jammed hard.
> The slide is pulled and pushed by an outrigged lever which causes the
slide
> to twist and jam whenever pressure is applied. The attachment to cable is
> off centre and not even co planar with the slide.
> A Teflon liner is offered on the website but my several requests were
> ignored.
> I packed it with grease but it still jammed under the vacuum at low
throttle
> settings and any attempt to quickly open throttle for a missed approach
> makes it jam harder because of the offset cable attachment.
> I attempted to discuss changes to the design but was abused. I have a copy
> of the correspondence.
> When I asked for a refund I was told to sell it on eBay.
> I would not have the conscience to give it away .
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of j.
davis
> Sent: Friday, 16 January 2009 10:45 AM
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
>
>
> Peter Harris wrote:
> <peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>> Andy,
>> That is a very informative post.
>> I have been testing with a twin injector throttle body feeding an
>> unobstructed plenum, then for comparison feeding the Jab collector. My
>> fuel/air mix should be better, in fact I tried 60PSI for greater
>> atomization, but the charge entered the plenum and too much of the fuel
>> carried through to over richen #1 and 2 near WOT.
>> This is an issue independent of the splitter or the type of turbulence.
>> I think it is happening because near WOT a proportion of the fuel
droplets
>> have enough energy to accelerate through the plenum (or the collector)
> until
>> they reach the end.
>> This is similar to the principle used by Dyson when dust is separated
from
>> the air stream by using it's kinetic energy in a cyclone.
>> After endless tests I think the problem is due to the fact that we have
an
>> end fed plenum (or collector).
>> I plan to reconfigure my plenum for bottom feed similar to the 0-200, but
>> headers will still be unequal and it will not be easy to target the
charge
>> for uniform distribution between the 6 outlets.
>> Peter
>>
>
> Just wondering... there seems to be a preponderance of posting on this
> list that has to do with Bing carb
> tuning/jetting/adjusting/modifying/etc. Has anyone considered an
> alternative? AeroConversion's AeroCarb comes to mind :') I'm quite happy
> with mine (Sonex/3300/AeroCarb), and I know that there are many other
> Sonex/3300 drivers that are, also.
>
>
Yes, you had an early model, and there were some sticky slide issues
back then. (owners of the early models can get them refitted by Sonex) I
have a newer model, and combined with the AeroConversions Throttle
Quadrant which works with the newest AeroCarbs fitted with optional pull
control (again, older AeroCarbs may be upgraded for pull control),
sticky slides are a thing of the past, as far as I can tell.
There was a period of needle height adjustment that needed to be done to
get the right mixture over the full range, but once set up, shouldn't
need to be done much, if any, again. Certainly not seasonally.
I've got nothing against Bings, had two of them on my 912, never needed
to touch them (except for the occasional synchronizing). Got em on my
Beemer bike(s), too. I was just attracted to the simplicity and
efficiency of the AeroCarb, and so far, I'm not disappointed.
--
Regards, J.
-------------------------------------------------
J. Davis, M.Sc. (computer science)
*NIX consulting, SysAdmin
-------------------------------------------------
The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck, is the day they
make a vacuum cleaner.
Message 12
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|
| Subject: | Re: Sonex Aircraft Responds to Peter Harris |
Why would anyone pack a carbureteur with greae, the Bing is not unlike a SU
carb and I recall that they used a small amount of VERY light oil as a damper
for the slide. Mr Harris needs to say "thankyou" and return his carb to you
as you have suggested. Please no flame!
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 1/16/2009 9:21:29 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
tech@sonexaircraft.com writes:
--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Sonex Tech Support
<tech@sonexaircraft.com>
Good Morning Jabiru Enthusiast,
We at Sonex Aircraft LLC and AeroConversions LLC like to remain "hands-off"
on the public lists but we do feel it is necessary to respond to Peter
Harris (whose posting is copied at the bottom of this response) directly in
this public forum.
Specifically:
Mr. Harris was supplied an AeroCarb which had an anodized aluminum slide
with a thin delrin anti-friction gasket. He states he was supplied an
Aerocarb with "no teflon liner". We have never offered a "teflon liner",
though earlier AeroCarbs had teflon coated slides with no delrin gasket.
Those were discontinued in favor of the anodized slide delrin gasket, which
we continue to supply as standard equipment. His claims that we offer a
teflon liner on the website are simply incorrect. He is perhaps confusing
the delrin gasket with a "teflon slide".
The outrigged throttle attachment performs well when properly installed.
Proper installation is described in full detail in the AeroCarb's
installation manual, including specific part numbers for rod ends, throttle
cables, etc. Current AeroCarbs are shipped with an additional, alternative
throttle connection which eliminates any chance of binding caused by
improper installation, but requires a reversing throttle quadrant.
Mr. Harris packed his AeroCarb with grease. Grease may be great on bulldozer
tracks and railroad car couplers but has no place in an AeroCarb.
We stand behind our products 100%. We asked Mr. Harris to return his
AeroCarb for a free warranty inspection. He declined, stating it was "futile
to return the carb unless you are willing to resolve the design issues". We
asked for photos of his installation and they were never provided. Mr.
Harris declined to accept the help we were offering and was clear he would
not have been happy with any effort we would have made short of redesigning
our product to his specific desires.
Here is the full text of the final email sent (March 9, 2007) from the Sonex
Aircraft tech support desk to Mr. Harris:
---Begin
Hi Peter,
We have more experience than anyone with the AeroCarb. Your binding is not
normal which means there is an installation error or a defective part. We
are asking you once more to return the carb for a warranty inspection, and
to send us photos of your installation. Barring that we are unable to help
you.
If you you do not wish to take advantage of the warranty service/inspection
of your AeroCarb, then we ask that you do not advise others on how to "fix"
or install their AeroCarb, and when sharing your experience with others
please be sure to tell them that we asked for the carb back for a warranty
inspection and asked for photos to help diagnose your installation. We are
not aware of any unresolved AeroCarb problems from customers who were
willing to install the Aerocarb per our instructions and/or return their
carb for inspection when problems occurred. We do know of people who have
refused to work with us and have either given up on their Aerocarb, or have
gone to great and unnecessary lengths to "fix" it.
We stand behind our products 100%, for the safety of others, which is why we
have repeatedly asked for photos of your installation and the return of your
AeroCarb for inspection.
---End
We have supported hundreds of AeroCarb installations on a wide variety of
aircraft and engines. I have personally flown my AeroCarb-equipped Jabiru
3300-powered Sonex over 400 hours in the last 4.5 years. It bears repeating
- no one has more experience with the AeroCarb than we do - and no one is
more qualified than us to support our product.
This will be our only post on the topic. If you have questions about the
AeroCarb we encourage you to visit our websites:
www.aeroconversions.com
www.sonexaircraft.com
Or email us directly at the addresses listed below.
Blue Skies,
Kerry Fores
Sonex Aircraft LLC
PO Box 2521
Oshkosh, WI 54903-2521
Tech Line: (920) 230-TECH (8324)
Mon, Wed. and Fri. 10 AM to 12 AM and 2PM to 4PM CT
Orders and General Info:
Ph.920-231-8297
Fax (920) 426-8333
http://www.sonexaircraft.com
Please use the following e-mail addresses to Contact Sonex Aircraft:
Sales Info: sales@sonexaircraft.com
Orders: orders@sonexaircraft.com
Accounting: accounting@sonexaircraft.com
Tech Support: tech@sonexaircraft.com
___________________________________________
Subject: RE: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
From: Peter Harris (peterjfharris@bigpond.com)
J
I would recommend against using Aerocarb especially on the J3300 based on
personal experience. I was supplied with an Aerocarb with no Teflon liner.
The slide worked on anodized metal to metal and jammed hard.
The slide is pulled and pushed by an outrigged lever which causes the slide
to twist and jam whenever pressure is applied. The attachment to cable is
off centre and not even co planar with the slide.
A Teflon liner is offered on the website but my several requests were
ignored.
I packed it with grease but it still jammed under the vacuum at low throttle
settings and any attempt to quickly open throttle for a missed approach
makes it jam harder because of the offset cable attachment.
I attempted to discuss changes to the design but was abused. I have a copy
of the correspondence.
When I asked for a refund I was told to sell it on eBay.
I would not have the conscience to give it away .
Peter
**************Inauguration '09: Get complete coverage from the nation's
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
BALONEY TO your failed engine statement due to the Aero-Vee carb. Verify one
that can be proven to be caused by the carb,,..Regards Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 3:46 PM
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
> <peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>
> J
> The throttle quadrant does nothing to solve the basic design fault which
> is
> due to the cable attachment off centre and not co planar causing the slide
> to twist when moved, and the increased load due to friction on the slide
> when it is moved at low throttle settings.
> But it is not only the design issues but also the attitude of the CEO as
> he
> was not prepared to supply me with the Teflon insert listed on his web
> site
> and resorted to personal abuse when I suggested some design changes that
> would solve the problem.
> There have been engine failures and a forced landing due to jammed slides.
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of j.
> davis
> Sent: Saturday, 17 January 2009 12:25 AM
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
>
>
> Peter Harris wrote:
> <peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>>
>> J
>> I would recommend against using Aerocarb especially on the J3300 based on
>> personal experience. I was supplied with an Aerocarb with no Teflon
>> liner.
>> The slide worked on anodized metal to metal and jammed hard.
>> The slide is pulled and pushed by an outrigged lever which causes the
> slide
>> to twist and jam whenever pressure is applied. The attachment to cable is
>> off centre and not even co planar with the slide.
>> A Teflon liner is offered on the website but my several requests were
>> ignored.
>> I packed it with grease but it still jammed under the vacuum at low
> throttle
>> settings and any attempt to quickly open throttle for a missed approach
>> makes it jam harder because of the offset cable attachment.
>> I attempted to discuss changes to the design but was abused. I have a
>> copy
>> of the correspondence.
>> When I asked for a refund I was told to sell it on eBay.
>> I would not have the conscience to give it away .
>> Peter
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of j.
> davis
>> Sent: Friday, 16 January 2009 10:45 AM
>> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
>>
>>
>> Peter Harris wrote:
>> <peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>>> Andy,
>>> That is a very informative post.
>>> I have been testing with a twin injector throttle body feeding an
>>> unobstructed plenum, then for comparison feeding the Jab collector. My
>>> fuel/air mix should be better, in fact I tried 60PSI for greater
>>> atomization, but the charge entered the plenum and too much of the fuel
>>> carried through to over richen #1 and 2 near WOT.
>>> This is an issue independent of the splitter or the type of turbulence.
>>> I think it is happening because near WOT a proportion of the fuel
> droplets
>>> have enough energy to accelerate through the plenum (or the collector)
>> until
>>> they reach the end.
>>> This is similar to the principle used by Dyson when dust is separated
> from
>>> the air stream by using it's kinetic energy in a cyclone.
>>> After endless tests I think the problem is due to the fact that we have
> an
>>> end fed plenum (or collector).
>>> I plan to reconfigure my plenum for bottom feed similar to the 0-200,
>>> but
>>> headers will still be unequal and it will not be easy to target the
> charge
>>> for uniform distribution between the 6 outlets.
>>> Peter
>>>
>>
>> Just wondering... there seems to be a preponderance of posting on this
>> list that has to do with Bing carb
>> tuning/jetting/adjusting/modifying/etc. Has anyone considered an
>> alternative? AeroConversion's AeroCarb comes to mind :') I'm quite happy
>> with mine (Sonex/3300/AeroCarb), and I know that there are many other
>> Sonex/3300 drivers that are, also.
>>
>>
>
> Yes, you had an early model, and there were some sticky slide issues
> back then. (owners of the early models can get them refitted by Sonex) I
> have a newer model, and combined with the AeroConversions Throttle
> Quadrant which works with the newest AeroCarbs fitted with optional pull
> control (again, older AeroCarbs may be upgraded for pull control),
> sticky slides are a thing of the past, as far as I can tell.
>
> There was a period of needle height adjustment that needed to be done to
> get the right mixture over the full range, but once set up, shouldn't
> need to be done much, if any, again. Certainly not seasonally.
>
> I've got nothing against Bings, had two of them on my 912, never needed
> to touch them (except for the occasional synchronizing). Got em on my
> Beemer bike(s), too. I was just attracted to the simplicity and
> efficiency of the AeroCarb, and so far, I'm not disappointed.
>
> --
> Regards, J.
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> J. Davis, M.Sc. (computer science)
> *NIX consulting, SysAdmin
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck, is the day they
> make a vacuum cleaner.
>
>
>
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