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1. 11:32 PM - Re: Sonex Aircraft Responds to Peter Harris (Peter Harris)
2. 11:37 PM - Re: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness (Peter Harris)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Sonex Aircraft Responds to Peter Harris |
Good evening Aerocarb enthusiasts.
I suggest that this is not the place to conduct an Aerocarb argument and I
will not be responding further except to correct the record. My carb slide
was not coated with any product, it was anodized and ran on the Delrin
gasket which however was fitted on one side only, and on the uncoated
anodized surface of the frame on it's face. My contact with the supplier was
based on preliminary bench testing when I reported the very high friction
between these two uncoated anodized surfaces which were jamming due to the
off centre action of the lever, and I requested the Teflon coated slide
option offered on the website at the time. I made the request three times
but was ignored.
Then I used grease and found a big improvement in bench testing and so I
completed the installation but subsequently the slide jammed when I started
the engine.
The cable installation was strictly according to Aerocarb instructions, but
the off centre action of the carb lever assembly which is part of the
product design, caused twisting and jamming at low throttle settings when
there is significant pressure on the slide.
>From the responses from the supplier I formed the opinion that Aerocarb were
making very strong efforts to blame my installation for the issues even
though my complaint and suggestions were based on bench testing and
consequently I decided not to return it until the design issues were
addressed. The response from Aerocarb below confirms that others have had
similar problems with the product.
When another operator at my field suffered jamming of his Teflon coated
slide on late final (Sonex J2200) and was forced to recover with the
adjustment of flap I decided that the carb was unsafe and requested a return
for credit.
I was refused warranty and told to sell it on eBay.
Anyone who is curious to know what really happened may contact me direct
(except for those on this site engaged in Aerocarb promotion) as I have a
complete record of all of the correspondence.
Qualified as an engineer I have given my informed opinion about what I
consider to be basic design faults in the product which could be very easily
fixed. You may like to inspect the product and decide for yourself.
If you decide to use the Aerocarb I suggest that you make sure you have a
slide that is coated preferably with Teflon on both sides and be very
careful in operation at the lower throttle settings or with quick throttle
movements.
However based on my own experience I can only assume that the Teflon coated
slide is no longer available.
Take care,
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sonex
Tech Support
Sent: Saturday, 17 January 2009 2:19 AM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Sonex Aircraft Responds to Peter Harris
<tech@sonexaircraft.com>
Good Morning Jabiru Enthusiast,
We at Sonex Aircraft LLC and AeroConversions LLC like to remain "hands-off"
on the public lists but we do feel it is necessary to respond to Peter
Harris (whose posting is copied at the bottom of this response) directly in
this public forum.
Specifically:
Mr. Harris was supplied an AeroCarb which had an anodized aluminum slide
with a thin delrin anti-friction gasket. He states he was supplied an
Aerocarb with "no teflon liner". We have never offered a "teflon liner",
though earlier AeroCarbs had teflon coated slides with no delrin gasket.
Those were discontinued in favor of the anodized slide delrin gasket, which
we continue to supply as standard equipment. His claims that we offer a
teflon liner on the website are simply incorrect. He is perhaps confusing
the delrin gasket with a "teflon slide".
The outrigged throttle attachment performs well when properly installed.
Proper installation is described in full detail in the AeroCarb's
installation manual, including specific part numbers for rod ends, throttle
cables, etc. Current AeroCarbs are shipped with an additional, alternative
throttle connection which eliminates any chance of binding caused by
improper installation, but requires a reversing throttle quadrant.
Mr. Harris packed his AeroCarb with grease. Grease may be great on bulldozer
tracks and railroad car couplers but has no place in an AeroCarb.
We stand behind our products 100%. We asked Mr. Harris to return his
AeroCarb for a free warranty inspection. He declined, stating it was "futile
to return the carb unless you are willing to resolve the design issues". We
asked for photos of his installation and they were never provided. Mr.
Harris declined to accept the help we were offering and was clear he would
not have been happy with any effort we would have made short of redesigning
our product to his specific desires.
Here is the full text of the final email sent (March 9, 2007) from the Sonex
Aircraft tech support desk to Mr. Harris:
---Begin
Hi Peter,
We have more experience than anyone with the AeroCarb. Your binding is not
normal which means there is an installation error or a defective part. We
are asking you once more to return the carb for a warranty inspection, and
to send us photos of your installation. Barring that we are unable to help
you.
If you you do not wish to take advantage of the warranty service/inspection
of your AeroCarb, then we ask that you do not advise others on how to "fix"
or install their AeroCarb, and when sharing your experience with others
please be sure to tell them that we asked for the carb back for a warranty
inspection and asked for photos to help diagnose your installation. We are
not aware of any unresolved AeroCarb problems from customers who were
willing to install the Aerocarb per our instructions and/or return their
carb for inspection when problems occurred. We do know of people who have
refused to work with us and have either given up on their Aerocarb, or have
gone to great and unnecessary lengths to "fix" it.
We stand behind our products 100%, for the safety of others, which is why we
have repeatedly asked for photos of your installation and the return of your
AeroCarb for inspection.
---End
We have supported hundreds of AeroCarb installations on a wide variety of
aircraft and engines. I have personally flown my AeroCarb-equipped Jabiru
3300-powered Sonex over 400 hours in the last 4.5 years. It bears repeating
- no one has more experience with the AeroCarb than we do - and no one is
more qualified than us to support our product.
This will be our only post on the topic. If you have questions about the
AeroCarb we encourage you to visit our websites:
www.aeroconversions.com
www.sonexaircraft.com
Or email us directly at the addresses listed below.
Blue Skies,
Kerry Fores
Sonex Aircraft LLC
PO Box 2521
Oshkosh, WI 54903-2521
Tech Line: (920) 230-TECH (8324)
Mon, Wed. and Fri. 10 AM to 12 AM and 2PM to 4PM CT
Orders and General Info:
Ph.920-231-8297
Fax (920) 426-8333
http://www.sonexaircraft.com
Please use the following e-mail addresses to Contact Sonex Aircraft:
Sales Info: sales@sonexaircraft.com
Orders: orders@sonexaircraft.com
Accounting: accounting@sonexaircraft.com
Tech Support: tech@sonexaircraft.com
___________________________________________
Subject: RE: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
From: Peter Harris (peterjfharris@bigpond.com)
J
I would recommend against using Aerocarb especially on the J3300 based on
personal experience. I was supplied with an Aerocarb with no Teflon liner.
The slide worked on anodized metal to metal and jammed hard.
The slide is pulled and pushed by an outrigged lever which causes the slide
to twist and jam whenever pressure is applied. The attachment to cable is
off centre and not even co planar with the slide.
A Teflon liner is offered on the website but my several requests were
ignored.
I packed it with grease but it still jammed under the vacuum at low throttle
settings and any attempt to quickly open throttle for a missed approach
makes it jam harder because of the offset cable attachment.
I attempted to discuss changes to the design but was abused. I have a copy
of the correspondence.
When I asked for a refund I was told to sell it on eBay.
I would not have the conscience to give it away .
Peter
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness |
A good looking engine Joe.
Peter
_____
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe Ronco
Sent: Saturday, 17 January 2009 2:21 AM
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
Or you could trade it in for a new UL Power (www.ulpower.com) Model UL350i
(same or better performance as the 3300) and get EFI/FADEC as standard. No
messing with carburetors, carb heat or carb ice, fuel distribution etc. ULP
has also introduced redundancy options for the ECU.
See: http://www.ulpower.com/ul260i-qa-ecu.htm. Click on link at bottom of
page for schematics of optional ECU arrangements.
See attachments for preliminary UL350i specifications and performance. ULP
is fine tuning/optimizing the UL350i design with release to the market
expected 2Q/3Q 2009.
Joe R
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don
Honabach
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 9:05 PM
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
I'd love to hear any real world results of the AeroCarb on Zenith 601s.
I also personally would love a fuel ejected fully computerized control
setup for the 3300 as well!!!!!
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of j.
davis
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 17:45
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness
<jd@lawsonimaging.ca>
Peter Harris wrote:
<peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>
> Andy,
> That is a very informative post.
> I have been testing with a twin injector throttle body feeding an
> unobstructed plenum, then for comparison feeding the Jab collector. My
> fuel/air mix should be better, in fact I tried 60PSI for greater
> atomization, but the charge entered the plenum and too much of the
fuel
> carried through to over richen #1 and 2 near WOT.
> This is an issue independent of the splitter or the type of
turbulence.
> I think it is happening because near WOT a proportion of the fuel
droplets
> have enough energy to accelerate through the plenum (or the collector)
until
> they reach the end.
> This is similar to the principle used by Dyson when dust is separated
from
> the air stream by using it's kinetic energy in a cyclone.
> After endless tests I think the problem is due to the fact that we
have an
> end fed plenum (or collector).
> I plan to reconfigure my plenum for bottom feed similar to the 0-200,
but
> headers will still be unequal and it will not be easy to target the
charge
> for uniform distribution between the 6 outlets.
> Peter
>
Just wondering... there seems to be a preponderance of posting on this
list that has to do with Bing carb
tuning/jetting/adjusting/modifying/etc. Has anyone considered an
alternative? AeroConversion's AeroCarb comes to mind :') I'm quite happy
with mine (Sonex/3300/AeroCarb), and I know that there are many other
Sonex/3300 drivers that are, also.
--
Regards, J.
-------------------------------------------------
J. Davis, M.Sc. (computer science)
*NIX consulting, SysAdmin
-------------------------------------------------
The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck, is the day they
make a vacuum cleaner.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
1/15/2009 07:46
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