---------------------------------------------------------- JabiruEngine-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 08/20/09: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:43 AM - Re: Re: Results of GAMI Lean Tests (Lynn Matteson) 2. 04:53 AM - Fuel (BobbyPaulk@COMCAST.NET) 3. 05:21 AM - Re: Re: Results of GAMI Lean Tests (BobsV35B@aol.com) 4. 06:43 AM - Re: Re: Results of GAMI Lean Tests (Lynn Matteson) 5. 09:44 AM - Re: Fuel (T. Graziano) 6. 09:47 AM - Re: Jab 3300 vs Rotax 912ULS performance - technical interpretation (Pete Krotje) 7. 05:07 PM - Re: Fuel (Peter Harris) 8. 06:25 PM - Re: Fuel (Hollis Babb) 9. 09:08 PM - Re: Fuel (Peter Harris) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:43:46 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Results of GAMI Lean Tests Thanks for the tip, Terry. I'll check it out. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 739.7 hrs Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop Electroair direct-fire ignition system Rotec TBI-40 injection Status: flying do not archive On Aug 20, 2009, at 1:47 AM, Terry Phillips wrote: > > > Lynn wrote > > >> Three different tests, flown at 4500', 6000-6300', and >> 6500-7200'....these were supposed to be at a fixed altitude, but you >> know how that goes, when you're busy writing things down, and nobody >> else to keep track of the airplane. > > > Lynn > > If you're not familiar with Waiter and his data logger software, I > suggest that check out > > http://www.iflyez.com/EFISRecorder.shtml > > With Waiter's software, a low level laptop can give second by > second recording of your EFIS data. I believe the software is free. > I'm planning to use it for my phase 1 tests ... when I get to that > point. > > Terry ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:39 AM PST US From: BobbyPaulk@COMCAST.NET Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel List, Is anyone using Auto Fuel with Ethanol. I am particularly interested in the 601 XL with Jabiru 3300 but would like data on any low wing with pumped fuel. I know some Rotax pilots using it but they have gravity fed fuel systems. I plan on starting test at altitude by using one tank for 100 LL and the other for High Octane BP that formerly was Amoco White gas. I was using it before the change to Ethanol but have had concerns about it now. Even using 100 LL I get a lower pressure with the boost pump prior to start when the engine is hot and been sitting for a while. My main concern would be at Take Off with a hot engine and lose fuel fuel pressure due to Vaporization or cavitation. Ground temperature is normally over 90 deg. in summer. anyone have experience with this ?? Bobby 601 XL 87 Hrs. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:21:17 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Results of GAMI Lean Tests Good Morning Terry, That sounds like a great idea! The one caution I would make is that we still need to go slowly. It takes time for of the temperature probe to stabilize and for the spinning turbine wheel of the fuel flow unit to stabilize. It is recommended that the fuel flow be allowed to stabilize for at least thirty seconds for each one tenth of a gallon change of fuel flow. One more caveat. If you accidentally go two tenths of a gallon, don't try to go back.. Natural hysteresis will upset the data. Take care with gathering the data and it's usefulness multiplies. For engines that cruise at twelve to fourteen GPH, three tenths of a gallon increments are adequate. For the Jabiru. I would shoot for one tenth of a gallon per check point. Not having to record the data manually sure helps! Most of the above suggestions were stolen from the GAMI literature! Happy Skies, Old Bob LL22 Stearman N3977A In a message dated 8/20/2009 12:48:28 A.M. Central Daylight Time, ttp44@rkymtn.net writes: http://www.iflyez.com/EFISRecorder.shtml ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:27 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Results of GAMI Lean Tests Speaking of turbine wheels......I would love to try a turbine wheel right behind my TBI, to see if such a device would stir up the mixture and possibly create (1) a better distribution of said mixture, and (2) a better mixing of the mixture. When I worked at the Chrysler Proving Grounds Wind Tunnel, we had coolant flow meters that were built of stainless steel, and used a turbine wheel almost exactly like I'd like to try. Maybe the diameter of those might have been a bit small, but I mention that to possibly trigger some thinking. I haven't done a search yet, but thought I'd pass the idea out there, and maybe someone knows of such a thing. My idea of using a small turbine wheel is not to supercharge.....not even to have the wheel powered, but for it to just spin from the air passing by. Powering it will be another chapter. : ) I've got my cowls off to do some fuel line mods, and in looking at my intake runners.....boy, that are not THAT far off in length compared to one another. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 739.7 hrs Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop Electroair direct-fire ignition system Rotec TBI-40 injection Status: flying On Aug 20, 2009, at 8:17 AM, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > Good Morning Terry, > > That sounds like a great idea! > > The one caution I would make is that we still need to go slowly. It > takes time for of the temperature probe to stabilize and for the > spinning turbine wheel of the fuel flow unit to stabilize. It is > recommended that the fuel flow be allowed to stabilize for at least > thirty seconds for each one tenth of a gallon change of fuel flow. > > One more caveat. If you accidentally go two tenths of a gallon, > don't try to go back.. Natural hysteresis will upset the data. > > Take care with gathering the data and it's usefulness multiplies. > For engines that cruise at twelve to fourteen GPH, three tenths of > a gallon increments are adequate. For the Jabiru. I would shoot for > one tenth of a gallon per check point. Not having to record the > data manually sure helps! > > Most of the above suggestions were stolen from the GAMI literature! > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > LL22 > Stearman N3977A > > > In a message dated 8/20/2009 12:48:28 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > ttp44@rkymtn.net writes: > http://www.iflyez.com/EFISRecorder.shtml > > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:32 AM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel Bobby, I was, unknown to me, using BP, 93 Octane, with 5% alcohol for some unknown short time. I had been using BP for about two years when I noticed that my fuel caps* were suddenly becoming difficult to remove and it was to the point that the "locking tab/cap rotator" of the cap would hardly move without some mechanical assist. This was for my inboard tanks only**. It was then that I noticed that the gas pumps now had "may contain up to 10% alcohol" stickers. My electrical back up fuel pump is after my gascolator, and before my fuel filter and engine mechanical pump. I had been flying in 90 - 100 F weather with no problems other than the fuel cap problem. * Fuel caps are "lightweight SPRL fuel caps"; Aircraft Spruce P/N 05-28663, I believe. Newer ones may have alcohol resistant "O" rings. **I only put avgas in my outboard tanks because I rarely use them and want avgas for longer term stability. I now only use mogas without the algore additive or avgas. Even though the station at which I buy my mogas has a sign "NO Alcohol", I still run a check. Tony Graziano XL/Jab; N493TG; 520 hrs. ----- Original Message ----- From: BobbyPaulk@COMCAST.NET To: Digest JabiruEngine-List Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 6:53 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel List, Is anyone using Auto Fuel with Ethanol. I am particularly interested in the 601 XL with Jabiru 3300 but would like data on any low wing with pumped fuel. I know some Rotax pilots using it but they have gravity fed fuel systems. I plan on starting test at altitude by using one tank for 100 LL and the other for High Octane BP that formerly was Amoco White gas. I was using it before the change to Ethanol but have had concerns about it now. Even using 100 LL I get a lower pressure with the boost pump prior to start when the engine is hot and been sitting for a while. My main concern would be at Take Off with a hot engine and lose fuel fuel pressure due to Vaporization or cavitation. Ground temperature is normally over 90 deg. in summer. anyone have experience with this ?? Bobby 601 XL 87 Hrs. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:47:53 AM PST US From: "Pete Krotje" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Jab 3300 vs Rotax 912ULS performance - technical interpretation Based on US prices your cost figures for the Jab and Rotax are backwards. Jabiru 3300 plus fwf kit = $20,450. Rotax + fwf kit = $24,500+ Pete Krotje Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC 931-680-2800 www.usjabiru.com -----Original Message----- From: flylightning [mailto:info@flylightning.net] Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 11:36 AM Subject: FW: JabiruEngine-List: Jab 3300 vs Rotax 912ULS performance - technical interpretation -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Victor Menkal Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:39 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Jab 3300 vs Rotax 912ULS performance - technical interpretation Hi folks. Trying to determine the increase in performance I could expect by using a Jab 3300 rather than a Rotax 912ULS in my soon to be built CH750 and would appreciate some technical help with the numbers. The numbers I get are as follows Jabiru 3300 @ 3300 RPM, 123 HP, 200 ft lbs, 178 lbs "ramp" weight, $24500 with CH750 FWF Rotax 912ULS @ 5800 RPM, 100 HP, 94 ft lbs - 225 ft lbs with 2.43 reduction gear, 156 lbs "ramp" weight, $20000 with CH750 FWF Was I correct to calculate the shaft torque for the Rotax by mulitpllying by the reduction gear ratio? Would some power loss but not torque? Ie the Rotax max HP at shaft will actually be a bit less due to friction losses but torque will be same. Appreciate technical advice on these numbers ie what does higher HP but lower torque in Jab actually mean in real life? Will the Jab give faster cruise but the Rotax more pull under heavy loads? I am particularly interested in what the numbers would mean for float operations. Thanx gang. Cpt Vic Building Zenair CH750 Whitehorse Yukon ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:20 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel Bobby I think you will find that Ethanol is a solvent for epoxy resin. Not sure if you have FG tanks? Peter _____ From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobbyPaulk@COMCAST.NET Sent: Thursday, 20 August 2009 9:53 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel List, Is anyone using Auto Fuel with Ethanol. I am particularly interested in the 601 XL with Jabiru 3300 but would like data on any low wing with pumped fuel. I know some Rotax pilots using it but they have gravity fed fuel systems. I plan on starting test at altitude by using one tank for 100 LL and the other for High Octane BP that formerly was Amoco White gas. I was using it before the change to Ethanol but have had concerns about it now. Even using 100 LL I get a lower pressure with the boost pump prior to start when the engine is hot and been sitting for a while. My main concern would be at Take Off with a hot engine and lose fuel fuel pressure due to Vaporization or cavitation. Ground temperature is normally over 90 deg. in summer. anyone have experience with this ?? Bobby 601 XL 87 Hrs. 18:06:00 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:47 PM PST US From: Hollis Babb Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel Kit builders now have a coating for the tanks so that is not a problem. Sent from my iPhone Hollis Babb 256-506-2834 On Aug 20, 2009, at 7:02 PM, "Peter Harris" wrote: > Bobby > > I think you will find that Ethanol is a solvent for epoxy resin. Not > sure if you have FG tanks? > > Peter > > > From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner- > jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobbyPaulk@COMCAST.NET > Sent: Thursday, 20 August 2009 9:53 PM > To: Digest JabiruEngine-List > Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel > > > List, > Is anyone using Auto Fuel with Ethanol. I am particularly > interested in the 601 XL with Jabiru 3300 but would like data on any > low wing with pumped fuel. > I know some Rotax pilots using it but they have gravity fed fuel > systems. > I plan on starting test at altitude by using one tank for 100 LL and > the other for High Octane BP that formerly was Amoco White gas. I > was using it before the change to Ethanol but have had concerns > about it now. > Even using 100 LL I get a lower pressure with the boost pump prior > to start when the engine is hot and been sitting for a while. My > main concern would be at Take Off with a hot engine and lose fuel > fuel pressure due to Vaporization or cavitation. Ground temperature > is normally over 90 deg. in summer. > anyone have experience with this ?? > > Bobby > 601 XL 87 Hrs. > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > www.avg.com 270.13.63/2316 - Release Date: 08/20/09 18:06:00 > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:08:46 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel Hollis, Have you got details of the stuff? Thanks Peter _____ From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hollis Babb Sent: Friday, 21 August 2009 11:25 AM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel Kit builders now have a coating for the tanks so that is not a problem. Sent from my iPhone Hollis Babb 256-506-2834 On Aug 20, 2009, at 7:02 PM, "Peter Harris" wrote: Bobby I think you will find that Ethanol is a solvent for epoxy resin. Not sure if you have FG tanks? Peter _____ From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobbyPaulk@COMCAST.NET Sent: Thursday, 20 August 2009 9:53 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel List, Is anyone using Auto Fuel with Ethanol. I am particularly interested in the 601 XL with Jabiru 3300 but would like data on any low wing with pumped fuel. I know some Rotax pilots using it but they have gravity fed fuel systems. I plan on starting test at altitude by using one tank for 100 LL and the other for High Octane BP that formerly was Amoco White gas. I was using it before the change to Ethanol but have had concerns about it now. Even using 100 LL I get a lower pressure with the boost pump prior to start when the engine is hot and been sitting for a while. My main concern would be at Take Off with a hot engine and lose fuel fuel pressure due to Vaporization or cavitation. Ground temperature is normally over 90 deg. in summer. anyone have experience with this ?? Bobby 601 XL 87 Hrs. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message jabiruengine-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/JabiruEngine-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/jabiruengine-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/jabiruengine-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.