Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:52 AM - Re: Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work (Lynn Matteson)
2. 03:32 AM - Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work (Lynn Matteson)
3. 05:22 AM - Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work (Lynn Matteson)
4. 05:41 AM - Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work (Lynn Matteson)
5. 06:28 AM - Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work (zeprep251@aol.com)
6. 06:41 AM - Rotec carb at WOT (Mark Hubelbank)
7. 06:53 AM - Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work (Lynn Matteson)
8. 07:25 AM - Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work (Richard Girard)
9. 07:25 AM - Re: Rotec carb at WOT (Lynn Matteson)
10. 07:25 AM - Bing Carb (David Brown)
11. 07:53 AM - Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work (Lynn Matteson)
12. 08:55 AM - Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work (Dave)
13. 08:55 AM - Re: Bing Carb (Lynn Matteson)
14. 10:13 AM - Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work (Lynn Matteson)
15. 11:08 AM - Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work (=?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E9rme_Delamare?=)
16. 11:55 AM - Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work (Richard Girard)
17. 02:22 PM - Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work (Dave)
18. 03:13 PM - Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work (Peter Harris)
19. 03:13 PM - Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work (Peter Harris)
20. 03:42 PM - Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work (Lynn Matteson)
21. 04:14 PM - Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work (Lynn Matteson)
22. 04:45 PM - Re: Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work (Lynn Matteson)
23. 06:17 PM - Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work (Peter Harris)
24. 08:28 PM - Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work (Lynn Matteson)
25. 09:24 PM - Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work (Peter Harris)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work |
Hi Jim-
Now that's an interesting idea! I'll give that a try the next time I
have the bottom cowl off. I've been wanting to design a larger heat
muff around the muffler, so that might be a good time to do some more
intake manifold exploration.
Taking this thought a bit further, I might try something that would
not be "trapped" between the two halves of the manifold, but could be
inserted into the manifold from the front...right behind the 4-bolt
"adapter flange". That would certainly make the changing of any
different type "splitter wings" a lot easier. Maybe drill and tap the
upper half of the manifold....oops, that material is not thick
enough. Probably have to drill and tap the oil pan at the appropriate
spot, so that the attaching bolt could go right through both halves
of the manifold and secure into the pan. I don't recall if the oil
pan is thicker at the point where the other bolts holding the
manifold in place are secured. Do you have a spare oil pan, Jim, that
you could look at? It would probably have to be the early 2200. I'm
thinking that Jabiru would probably have cast in some "bumps" in that
area where the bolts penetrate.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
On Sep 7, 2009, at 2:55 PM, jim wrote:
>
> Hi Lynn
>
> Something you may want to try is to replace the "splitter wing"
> with a round
> bar stock 12mm in dia. I have had some customers try this with good
> results.
> The theory behind the round stock it it cause's turbulence in the
> plenum for
> better fuel distribution? But the guys that have done this report
> the EGT's
> are more uniform between the cyl's..
>
>
> Jim McCormick
> Jabiru Pacific LLC
> 255 W Fallbrook Suite 202B
> Fresno, Ca 93711
> P 559.431.1701
> F 559.233.3676
> www.jabirupacific.com
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work |
Good idea with the water testing.
It is interesting to note that even rotating my vaned air supply tube
to the Bing carb, would have some influence on the fuel/air
distribution to the engine, when I still had the Bing on there. There
is a lot to be learned just by moving things around on one of these
engines, and that may say something about how poorly the manifolding
is designed in the first place.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
On Sep 7, 2009, at 5:53 PM, Peter Harris wrote:
> <peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>
> Hi Lynn,
> Yes it was a product called "Hiclone" overpriced at AUD160 and very
> heavily
> promoted as a boost to power and economy.It has a double row of
> vanes in SS.
> The idea is probably OK but I think any benefit is offset by the
> choking
> effect as the device limits airflow.
> I think it would work better if the diameter was much larger, then
> perhaps
> tapered to the TB entry. This would accelerate the swirling air
> with limited
> obstruction to the flow.
> BTW I found it useful to conduct some tests using a high pressure
> spray of
> water from a spray gun.
> Peter
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work |
One thing I've found with the TBI is that I have to pull back from
WOT about 1/4" on an approximately 3" long throttle throw, to get the
max rpm's on takeoff. At full throw of the vernier throttle control,
I'll see (on one climbout) maybe 2940 rpm, and if I pull (rotate,
actually) back on the throttle about 1/4", I'll see 2990, maybe 3010
rpm. I've done this back and forth during the climbout and the result
is usually always an increase in rpm when pulled back from WOT. When
I talked with Paul from Rotec at Oshkosh, he said that the use of the
Rotec TBI on a 2200 Jabiru might require the need to reduce the
travel on the slide a small amount for best results. Interestingly,
Aerocarb suggests this same thing in their instructions.
My static reading is about 2850-2870 with both the TBI and when I had
the Bing installed. I have a Sensenich 62" x 46" glass-covered wood
prop, which for my airframe gives a decent climbout, but relatively
good speed (for a draggy airframe) in cruise....maybe 95-105 mph.
Straight and level rpm is about 3000-3100 on an average day.
Sometimes I'll see this rpm on climbs, too, so it must depend on the
atmospheric conditions.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
On Sep 7, 2009, at 5:44 PM, Peter Harris wrote:
> <peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>
> Looks like good work Lynn. Maybe you have got the splitter as good
> as it can
> be.
> I am interested in your test to WOT especially to see if you find no
> increase in power for the last inch of throttle. I have taken this
> effect to
> be an indication of losses in the collector (as proven by my test
> with the
> baffle plate inserted) but it may be that my prop is overloading
> the system.
> I am getting 2760RPM static with all of my ground tests.
> The prop is 55X72 as used on my Quickie and I get 170KTS CAS at
> 2900RPM WOT
> in level flight at 3000ft.It would be nice to find that extra power
> and
> maybe set a record for this type.
> Peter
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work |
Gary-
Did you see the response by Jim of Jabiru Pacific...he said that some
folks tried a round shape in that area, and it improved the EGT
spread because of the extra turbulence created...go figure! It just
goes to show that experimentation is the only way to figure these
things out....the "slide rule" isn't always the answer. (who uses
slide rules these days, anyway?) : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:54 PM, zeprep251@aol.com wrote:
> Thanks Lynn,
> One good picture answered all the questions.
> G.Aman
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work |
Lynn,
? Yes,I caught that post.The list is a great source of info when tuning.I never
would have thought of twisting the carb 20 degrees to even up the egts.We need
a injection system like they have available after market for the 912's,based
on an automotive port injected one.Gotta get the fuel past this quirky intake
plenum.
? Thanks G.Aman?
-----Original Message-----
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Tue, Sep 8, 2009 8:29 am
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work
?
Gary-?
Did you see the response by Jim of Jabiru Pacific...he said that some folks tried
a round shape in that area, and it improved the EGT spread because of the extra
turbulence created...go figure! It just goes to show that experimentation
is the only way to figure these things out....the "slide rule" isn't always
the answer. (who uses slide rules these days, anyway?) : )?
?
Lynn Matteson?
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger?
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs?
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop?
Electroair direct-fire ignition system?
Rotec TBI-40 injection?
Status: flying?
?
?
?
On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:54 PM, zeprep251@aol.com wrote:?
?
> Thanks Lynn,?
> One good picture answered all the questions.?
> G.Aman?
>?
>?
>?
?
?
?
Message 6
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| Subject: | Rotec carb at WOT |
Lynn
I just ordered a Rotec for my Jabiru 3300. I hope I have done the right
thing. Concerning your experience with WOT producing slightly reduced
power, was the EGT going down when this happened meaning the mixture was
getting so rich that it was past acceptable levels? If this was true,
then leaning slightly to get the EGT back up to Jabiru's recommended
1250F (assuming your engine has the same recommendations) should have
helped.
--
Mark Hubelbank
NorthEast Monitoring
2 Clock Tower Place
Suite 555
Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA
mhubel@nemon.com
978-443-3955
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work |
Yeah, twisting/rotating the carb works because of the splitter
sitting right in the middle of the air/fuel flow. Rotating the carb
biases the flow to one side of the splitter or the other.
Some where on my list of things to do, is a direct port
injector.....it's just that I can't find the list, so I don't know
where that project is located. First comes painting my skis, as
winter will soon be here. : )
Over on the yahoo Jabiru-engine group are a few pictures of an
injection system that somebody in France built. Don't know anything
more about it other than the pics. It was posted on Mar 20, 2008 and
was developed by "Jab France"...don't know how it worked out.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:18 AM, zeprep251@aol.com wrote:
> Lynn,
> Yes,I caught that post.The list is a great source of info when
> tuning.I never would have thought of twisting the carb 20 degrees
> to even up the egts.We need a injection system like they have
> available after market for the 912's,based on an automotive port
> injected one.Gotta get the fuel past this quirky intake plenum.
> Thanks G.Aman
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tue, Sep 8, 2009 8:29 am
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work
>
> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Gary-
> Did you see the response by Jim of Jabiru Pacific...he said that
> some folks tried a round shape in that area, and it improved the
> EGT spread because of the extra turbulence created...go figure! It
> just goes to show that experimentation is the only way to figure
> these things out....the "slide rule" isn't always the answer. (who
> uses slide rules these days, anyway?) : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
> Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection
> Status: flying
>
>
> On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:54 PM, zeprep251@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Thanks Lynn,
> > One good picture answered all the questions.
> > G.Aman
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work |
Lynn, Take off the air filter, pull the throttle to wide open and take a
look in the throttle bore. I'm guessing you'll find the slide is far up
above the bore. This is a problem with the Bing 54's used on two strokes,
but the pressure actuated diaphagm of the 64 usually doesn't.
Rick
On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 7:19 AM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
>
> One thing I've found with the TBI is that I have to pull back from WOT
> about 1/4" on an approximately 3" long throttle throw, to get the max rpm's
> on takeoff. At full throw of the vernier throttle control, I'll see (on one
> climbout) maybe 2940 rpm, and if I pull (rotate, actually) back on the
> throttle about 1/4", I'll see 2990, maybe 3010 rpm. I've done this back and
> forth during the climbout and the result is usually always an increase in
> rpm when pulled back from WOT. When I talked with Paul from Rotec at
> Oshkosh, he said that the use of the Rotec TBI on a 2200 Jabiru might
> require the need to reduce the travel on the slide a small amount for best
> results. Interestingly, Aerocarb suggests this same thing in their
> instructions.
>
> My static reading is about 2850-2870 with both the TBI and when I had the
> Bing installed. I have a Sensenich 62" x 46" glass-covered wood prop, which
> for my airframe gives a decent climbout, but relatively good speed (for a
> draggy airframe) in cruise....maybe 95-105 mph. Straight and level rpm is
> about 3000-3100 on an average day. Sometimes I'll see this rpm on climbs,
> too, so it must depend on the atmospheric conditions.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
> Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection
> Status: flying
>
>
> On Sep 7, 2009, at 5:44 PM, Peter Harris wrote:
>
>> peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>>
>> Looks like good work Lynn. Maybe you have got the splitter as good as it
>> can
>> be.
>> I am interested in your test to WOT especially to see if you find no
>> increase in power for the last inch of throttle. I have taken this effect
>> to
>> be an indication of losses in the collector (as proven by my test with the
>> baffle plate inserted) but it may be that my prop is overloading the
>> system.
>> I am getting 2760RPM static with all of my ground tests.
>> The prop is 55X72 as used on my Quickie and I get 170KTS CAS at 2900RPM
>> WOT
>> in level flight at 3000ft.It would be nice to find that extra power and
>> maybe set a record for this type.
>> Peter
>>
>>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rotec carb at WOT |
I really can't say that the power was reduced at WOT (although it
probably was), it's just that following Paul's recommendations, I
dialed the throttle back and saw the fuel flow increase and the rpm's
increase as well. It felt like the engine was puling the same power
but that's hard to tell. And concerning the EGT's, I can't say as I
noticed the EGT's during that same takeoff as when I'm watching the
tach and the fuel flow. When I take off, I use full rich mixture, as
it's kind of "puckerey" to be messing with the mixture during the
takeoff...for me anyway. Now when I land, that's where I DON'T go
full rich like most POH's say...I keep my hand near the mixture, on
the throttle, ready for a possible go-around, but the engine runs a
lot better during landings at full lean. Heck, I pull full lean at
about the start of the turn to base and leave it there. If I have to
go around, I hit full rich, and ease the throttle in full. I've tried
to go to full throttle from a lean setting while at altitude, and the
engine bogs to almost quitting. To save it, I hit full rich, pull
back to closed throttle, and ease the throttle in, taking about 1-2
seconds to go from closed throttle to WOT.
With your 3300, you may not have to resort to a slightly less than
WOT to get best rev count. Because the Rotec TBI was designed for a
2800 or 3600 cc engine, it is larger than
my 2200 "should" take. But it might work just fine on yours without
the restricted throttle operation. When I first tried the "short
throttle" I was going to stack a few slotted washers on the throttle
control, but found it easier to just push it WOT, then dial (vernier)
it back until I felt a 1/4" or so gap. Because of my throttle control
moving almost 3", and the slide on the TBI moving about 1-3/4" (?),
I'd guess that I'm only restricting about 1/16" to 1/8" of full slide
opening.
Next time I go up (raining like a bear p------ on a flat rock, today)
I'll see what WOT versus 1/4" less-than-WOT produces in terms of rpm,
fuel flow, EGT, CHT, etc., at altitude, and I'll also see what the
EGT's are like. I already know what the rpm's and fuel flow are doing
during takeoff, so I can pretty much forget watching them and
concentrate on the EGT's wile I dial the throttle back...good
thought, Mark.
In talking with a guy with a Europa, he ordered one but there wasn't
room to install it...hope you've got the room, Mark. It really is
less room-consuming front-to-back, but a bit more room is required in
the throttle slide direction.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:30 AM, Mark Hubelbank wrote:
> <mhubel@nemon.com>
>
> Lynn
> I just ordered a Rotec for my Jabiru 3300. I hope I have done the
> right thing. Concerning your experience with WOT producing slightly
> reduced power, was the EGT going down when this happened meaning
> the mixture was getting so rich that it was past acceptable levels?
> If this was true, then leaning slightly to get the EGT back up to
> Jabiru's recommended 1250F (assuming your engine has the same
> recommendations) should have helped.
>
> --
> Mark Hubelbank
> NorthEast Monitoring
> 2 Clock Tower Place
> Suite 555
> Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA
> mhubel@nemon.com
> 978-443-3955
>
>
Message 10
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I bent up a set of X vanes made of Stainless steel thin sheet about 2"
long, not made to rotate the air, but to straighten it just before the
carbi. Inserted it in the scat tubing. Bent flanges so that it keeps
tension on the sides of the tubing so that it cannot move. Max EGTs
range from 1330 to 1370 now. No reduction of power, maybe a little
increase. I wouldn't trade my bing now. I get about 4.7GPH at 2750 RPM,
115 MPH.
David 601XL JAB 3300
N601EX
I cut and bent it out of stainless steel. The little "stems" sticking
out of the tops of the vanes are what is used to hold it in place. I
bent the vanes to about a 45 degree angle. After installation, I ran
the engine up, and it seemed like the rpm's were fine, but on
climbout it was about 200 rpm down, and pretty weak in climb. I
thought it might have been the quite strong wind I was fighting, but
the next day wasn't any better so I removed the device and power was
restored. In retrospect, I think if I had made the outside a complete
circle, and let the center of the vanes be more open...in other
words, just have the vanes at the periphery, I think it might have
worked. But I do not have the means to saw to the inside of a circle
on my bandsaw...no blade welding attachment. I may try this
experiment again if I can find a way to make it here at home.
By the way, this device is not intended to rotate. It is just
supposed to make the air rotate, or become turbulent.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
do not archive
Time: 10:10:16 PM PST US
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
Lynn, Just a thought, but any airfoil surface, even a flat plate will
stall
at about a 12 to 16 degrees angle of attack. Before you give up, try
bending the vanes to something well below this, say 8 to 10 degrees.
Rick Girard
On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 10:21 PM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
> Last week or so, I mentioned I was going to build a "turbulator" for
my
> induction system. Here are pictures of what I built and what it looks
> (looked) like installed.
>
>
> I cut and bent it out of stainless steel. The little "stems" sticking
out
> of the tops of the vanes are what is used to hold it in place. I bent
the
> vanes to about a 45 degree angle. After installation, I ran the engine
up,
> and it seemed like the rpm's were fine, but on climbout it was about
200 rpm
> down, and pretty weak in climb. I thought it might have been the quite
> strong wind I was fighting, but the next day wasn't any better so I
removed
> the device and power was restored. In retrospect, I think if I had
made the
> outside a complete circle, and let the center of the vanes be more
open...in
> other words, just have the vanes at the periphery, I think it might
have
> worked. But I do not have the means to saw to the inside of a circle
on my
> bandsaw...no blade welding attachment. I may try this experiment again
if I
> can find a way to make it here at home.
>
> By the way, this device is not intended to rotate. It is just supposed
to
> make the air rotate, or become turbulent.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
> Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection
> Status: flying
> do not archive
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work |
The Rotec TBI is limited internally, so the throttle slide can only
open to flush with the bore. Good thought though, Rick.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
do not archive
On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:58 AM, Richard Girard wrote:
> Lynn, Take off the air filter, pull the throttle to wide open and
> take a look in the throttle bore. I'm guessing you'll find the
> slide is far up above the bore. This is a problem with the Bing
> 54's used on two strokes, but the pressure actuated diaphagm of the
> 64 usually doesn't.
>
> Rick
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work |
Hi Lynn, I've been sort of following your carb discusiion, Part of the issue
you may see when reducing throttle setting results in increased fuel/power
is related to velocity of the incoming air. Remember that the fuel is drawn
as a result of reduced pressure in a venturi due to velocity. If you reduce
the velocity of airflow, the fuel charge can actually become leaner. In fact
in some bikes I've ridden including my ratty old BMW opening the throttle
fully will result in an instant dead engine below a certain RPM.
Get working on the direct port injection. It's the only way you'll avoid
compromises. Closed loop, with a feedback sensor on each pipe :-) ($!).
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work
>
> The Rotec TBI is limited internally, so the throttle slide can only open
> to flush with the bore. Good thought though, Rick.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
> Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection
> Status: flying
> do not archive
>
>
> On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:58 AM, Richard Girard wrote:
>
>> Lynn, Take off the air filter, pull the throttle to wide open and take a
>> look in the throttle bore. I'm guessing you'll find the slide is far up
>> above the bore. This is a problem with the Bing 54's used on two
>> strokes, but the pressure actuated diaphagm of the 64 usually doesn't.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>
>
>
Message 13
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Good idea, David....now if you had a way to lean the Bing (maybe a
HACman?), you'd really love it. : ) I'm not sure that the HACman
works at all altitudes, though....I just don't know much about it.
I did a similar thing with a fiberglass tube with X vanes, built
right into my Bing air intake, and found that rotating the air intake
would affect EGT's and which banks were hotter, left to right.
It would be nice to have a cabin-controlled set of X vanes so that
instant observation of results could be obtained.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
On Sep 8, 2009, at 10:24 AM, David Brown wrote:
> <dbrown@avecc.com>
>
> I bent up a set of X vanes made of Stainless steel thin sheet about 2"
> long, not made to rotate the air, but to straighten it just before the
> carbi. Inserted it in the scat tubing. Bent flanges so that it keeps
> tension on the sides of the tubing so that it cannot move. Max EGTs
> range from 1330 to 1370 now. No reduction of power, maybe a little
> increase. I wouldn't trade my bing now. I get about 4.7GPH at 2750
> RPM,
> 115 MPH.
>
> David 601XL JAB 3300
> N601EX
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work |
Hi Dave-
I was thinking of going the cheap way....no electronics, no feedback
sensors, just good ol' Hilborn injector-type thinking.....a pump, an
orifice, and a metering block, with by-pass jet to control the amount
of fuel at various rpm's. In fact, there was an old system of fuel
injection built by Scott back in the 60's, that I got all excited
reading about. The theory was that a particular size orifice will
allow a certain amount of liquid to flow at a certain amount of
pressure. To double this flow, you need 4 times the pressure. To
triple the flow, you need 9 times the pressure. In other words, the
pressure required to get a certain amount of liquid to flow through a
given orifice is given as the square of the amount of increase
desired. Need 5 times the amount through the same hole?....increase
the pressure by 25 times.
(I hope I'm remembering all this correctly)
Now, a centrifugal pump will put out a certain amount of liquid while
rotating at a certain rpm. If you want to double the output, increase
the rpm by 4 times.....can you see where this is going? So, according
to the article I read, Scott Injection used a centrifugal pump that
was belt-driven off the engines' crankshaft, and if the rpm of the
engine was increased by 2-fold, the fuel pressure went up 4-fold, and
guess what?...the engine needed this much more fuel to run at that
rpm, so everybody was happy. The fuel flowed through the same size
orifice and no metering block (with bypass jets to dump the extra
fuel) was needed, like the Hilborn injectors of that era.
I actually built an injector system for a old tired 392 Chrysler
Hemi, using this theory, and a borrowed Scott injector pump. The
injector that I built was a sliding-throttle injector, and I used
brass fittings fitted with sewing machine needles for the needle/
orifice/spray bar part, and when I first started this thing up, it
was amazing how good it ran. And when I got the throttle plates to
open.....the plates were being sucked down hard due to the vacuum of
the engine.....the damn thing was torquing itself almost right off
the engine stand. Never got it to make a pass though the quarter mile
though, due to a cracked magneto cap, and the guy whose car I
borrowed to put the engine in, needed his car back. I think I was
going through a divorce (probably spending too much time in the
garage, and not enough in bed) at the time and never put the injector
on another engine, and finally traded the injector off and it never
ran again as far as I can recall. I know I had to give the Scott pump
back to its owner, too.
I'm thinking of getting another Scott pump if anybody knows of one.
They made two pumps...one was square-ish in shape, made for smaller
engine requirements, and one was larger, and more rounded in shape,
made for larger engines. Probably doing a search for Scott will find
me one.
Well, that certainly was a nice trip down memory lane....can anybody
guess that it's raining out, and I can't fly? : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
On Sep 8, 2009, at 11:11 AM, Dave wrote:
> <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca>
>
> Hi Lynn, I've been sort of following your carb discusiion, Part of
> the issue you may see when reducing throttle setting results in
> increased fuel/power is related to velocity of the incoming air.
> Remember that the fuel is drawn as a result of reduced pressure in
> a venturi due to velocity. If you reduce the velocity of airflow,
> the fuel charge can actually become leaner. In fact in some bikes
> I've ridden including my ratty old BMW opening the throttle fully
> will result in an instant dead engine below a certain RPM.
>
> Get working on the direct port injection. It's the only way you'll
> avoid compromises. Closed loop, with a feedback sensor on each
> pipe :-) ($!).
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> To: <jabiruengine-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 11:32 AM
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work
>
>
>> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>
>> The Rotec TBI is limited internally, so the throttle slide can
>> only open to flush with the bore. Good thought though, Rick.
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
Message 15
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| Subject: | Here's an idea that DIDN'T work |
Hi Lynn,
Electronic could be the cheap way ;o)
For example, the electric homemade system I described few weeks ago to lean
a bing cost... 0$
You just have to find a small electric motor (in an old printer for
example), spend a few hours to build a pump and you're ready to lean.
0$, 0 mechanical adaptation, no carb to trim and no fear during the first
take off ;o)
Perhaps of a small electrical system could reduce EGT spread to ?
Jrme, dreaming
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
Matteson
Sent: mardi 8 septembre 2009 18:58
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work
Hi Dave-
I was thinking of going the cheap way....no electronics, no feedback
sensors, just good ol' Hilborn injector-type thinking.....a pump, an
orifice, and a metering block, with by-pass jet to control the amount
of fuel at various rpm's. In fact, there was an old system of fuel
injection built by Scott back in the 60's, that I got all excited
reading about. The theory was that a particular size orifice will
allow a certain amount of liquid to flow at a certain amount of
pressure. To double this flow, you need 4 times the pressure. To
triple the flow, you need 9 times the pressure. In other words, the
pressure required to get a certain amount of liquid to flow through a
given orifice is given as the square of the amount of increase
desired. Need 5 times the amount through the same hole?....increase
the pressure by 25 times.
(I hope I'm remembering all this correctly)
Now, a centrifugal pump will put out a certain amount of liquid while
rotating at a certain rpm. If you want to double the output, increase
the rpm by 4 times.....can you see where this is going? So, according
to the article I read, Scott Injection used a centrifugal pump that
was belt-driven off the engines' crankshaft, and if the rpm of the
engine was increased by 2-fold, the fuel pressure went up 4-fold, and
guess what?...the engine needed this much more fuel to run at that
rpm, so everybody was happy. The fuel flowed through the same size
orifice and no metering block (with bypass jets to dump the extra
fuel) was needed, like the Hilborn injectors of that era.
I actually built an injector system for a old tired 392 Chrysler
Hemi, using this theory, and a borrowed Scott injector pump. The
injector that I built was a sliding-throttle injector, and I used
brass fittings fitted with sewing machine needles for the needle/
orifice/spray bar part, and when I first started this thing up, it
was amazing how good it ran. And when I got the throttle plates to
open.....the plates were being sucked down hard due to the vacuum of
the engine.....the damn thing was torquing itself almost right off
the engine stand. Never got it to make a pass though the quarter mile
though, due to a cracked magneto cap, and the guy whose car I
borrowed to put the engine in, needed his car back. I think I was
going through a divorce (probably spending too much time in the
garage, and not enough in bed) at the time and never put the injector
on another engine, and finally traded the injector off and it never
ran again as far as I can recall. I know I had to give the Scott pump
back to its owner, too.
I'm thinking of getting another Scott pump if anybody knows of one.
They made two pumps...one was square-ish in shape, made for smaller
engine requirements, and one was larger, and more rounded in shape,
made for larger engines. Probably doing a search for Scott will find
me one.
Well, that certainly was a nice trip down memory lane....can anybody
guess that it's raining out, and I can't fly? : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
On Sep 8, 2009, at 11:11 AM, Dave wrote:
> <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca>
>
> Hi Lynn, I've been sort of following your carb discusiion, Part of
> the issue you may see when reducing throttle setting results in
> increased fuel/power is related to velocity of the incoming air.
> Remember that the fuel is drawn as a result of reduced pressure in
> a venturi due to velocity. If you reduce the velocity of airflow,
> the fuel charge can actually become leaner. In fact in some bikes
> I've ridden including my ratty old BMW opening the throttle fully
> will result in an instant dead engine below a certain RPM.
>
> Get working on the direct port injection. It's the only way you'll
> avoid compromises. Closed loop, with a feedback sensor on each
> pipe :-) ($!).
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> To: <jabiruengine-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 11:32 AM
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work
>
>
>> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>
>> The Rotec TBI is limited internally, so the throttle slide can
>> only open to flush with the bore. Good thought though, Rick.
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work |
http://www.megamanual.com/index.html
<http://www.megamanual.com/index.html>The megasquirt project has been aroun
d
for awhile. That might be a simple adaptation.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 12:58 PM, J=E9rme Delamare <jeromedelamare@free.f
r>wrote:
> =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E9rme_Delamare?= <jeromedelamare@free.fr>
>
> Hi Lynn,
>
> Electronic could be the cheap way ;o)
>
> For example, the electric homemade system I described few weeks ago to le
an
> a bing cost... 0$
> You just have to find a small electric motor (in an old printer for
> example), spend a few hours to build a pump and you're ready to lean.
> 0$, 0 mechanical adaptation, no carb to trim and no fear during the first
> take off ;o)
>
> Perhaps of a small electrical system could reduce EGT spread to ?
>
> J=E9rme, dreaming
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: mardi 8 septembre 2009 18:58
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work
>
>
> Hi Dave-
> I was thinking of going the cheap way....no electronics, no feedback
> sensors, just good ol' Hilborn injector-type thinking.....a pump, an
> orifice, and a metering block, with by-pass jet to control the amount
> of fuel at various rpm's. In fact, there was an old system of fuel
> injection built by Scott back in the 60's, that I got all excited
> reading about. The theory was that a particular size orifice will
> allow a certain amount of liquid to flow at a certain amount of
> pressure. To double this flow, you need 4 times the pressure. To
> triple the flow, you need 9 times the pressure. In other words, the
> pressure required to get a certain amount of liquid to flow through a
> given orifice is given as the square of the amount of increase
> desired. Need 5 times the amount through the same hole?....increase
> the pressure by 25 times.
>
> (I hope I'm remembering all this correctly)
>
> Now, a centrifugal pump will put out a certain amount of liquid while
> rotating at a certain rpm. If you want to double the output, increase
> the rpm by 4 times.....can you see where this is going? So, according
> to the article I read, Scott Injection used a centrifugal pump that
> was belt-driven off the engines' crankshaft, and if the rpm of the
> engine was increased by 2-fold, the fuel pressure went up 4-fold, and
> guess what?...the engine needed this much more fuel to run at that
> rpm, so everybody was happy. The fuel flowed through the same size
> orifice and no metering block (with bypass jets to dump the extra
> fuel) was needed, like the Hilborn injectors of that era.
>
> I actually built an injector system for a old tired 392 Chrysler
> Hemi, using this theory, and a borrowed Scott injector pump. The
> injector that I built was a sliding-throttle injector, and I used
> brass fittings fitted with sewing machine needles for the needle/
> orifice/spray bar part, and when I first started this thing up, it
> was amazing how good it ran. And when I got the throttle plates to
> open.....the plates were being sucked down hard due to the vacuum of
> the engine.....the damn thing was torquing itself almost right off
> the engine stand. Never got it to make a pass though the quarter mile
> though, due to a cracked magneto cap, and the guy whose car I
> borrowed to put the engine in, needed his car back. I think I was
> going through a divorce (probably spending too much time in the
> garage, and not enough in bed) at the time and never put the injector
> on another engine, and finally traded the injector off and it never
> ran again as far as I can recall. I know I had to give the Scott pump
> back to its owner, too.
>
> I'm thinking of getting another Scott pump if anybody knows of one.
> They made two pumps...one was square-ish in shape, made for smaller
> engine requirements, and one was larger, and more rounded in shape,
> made for larger engines. Probably doing a search for Scott will find
> me one.
>
> Well, that certainly was a nice trip down memory lane....can anybody
> guess that it's raining out, and I can't fly? : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
> Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection
> Status: flying
>
>
> On Sep 8, 2009, at 11:11 AM, Dave wrote:
>
> > <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca>
> >
> > Hi Lynn, I've been sort of following your carb discusiion, Part of
> > the issue you may see when reducing throttle setting results in
> > increased fuel/power is related to velocity of the incoming air.
> > Remember that the fuel is drawn as a result of reduced pressure in
> > a venturi due to velocity. If you reduce the velocity of airflow,
> > the fuel charge can actually become leaner. In fact in some bikes
> > I've ridden including my ratty old BMW opening the throttle fully
> > will result in an instant dead engine below a certain RPM.
> >
> > Get working on the direct port injection. It's the only way you'll
> > avoid compromises. Closed loop, with a feedback sensor on each
> > pipe :-) ($!).
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> > To: <jabiruengine-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 11:32 AM
> > Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work
> >
> >
> >> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> >>
> >> The Rotec TBI is limited internally, so the throttle slide can
> >> only open to flush with the bore. Good thought though, Rick.
> >>
> >> Lynn Matteson
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work |
Can't speak about that system. I've never heard of most of it. I worked on a
mechanical GM injection from an old '50s corvette but I can hardly remember
it. You'll do a better job easier and faster with the new electronics, find
a generic closed loop system and the only thing you'll have to do is
machine up an intake system and feed it the right fuel pressure. I remain of
the "simpler is better " school though and I'd probably be happy with the
bing and just tune for the hottest cylinder.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work
>
> Hi Dave-
> I was thinking of going the cheap way....no electronics, no feedback
> sensors, just good ol' Hilborn injector-type thinking.....a pump, an
> orifice, and a metering block, with by-pass jet to
Message 18
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| Subject: | Here's an idea that DIDN'T work |
Gary,
I think that these effects show that the collector dynamics are unstable,
and a small change in any of the variables may make a big change in
performance, but the effects vary
over the power range.
Peter
_____
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
zeprep251@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, 8 September 2009 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work
Lynn,
Yes,I caught that post.The list is a great source of info when tuning.I
never would have thought of twisting the carb 20 degrees to even up the
egts.We need a injection system like they have available after market for
the 912's,based on an automotive port injected one.Gotta get the fuel past
this quirky intake plenum.
Thanks G.Aman
-----Original Message-----
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Tue, Sep 8, 2009 8:29 am
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work
Gary-
Did you see the response by Jim of Jabiru Pacific...he said that some folks
tried a round shape in that area, and it improved the EGT spread because of
the extra turbulence created...go figure! It just goes to show that
experimentation is the only way to figure these things out....the "slide
rule" isn't always the answer. (who uses slide rules these days, anyway?) :
)
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:54 PM, zeprep251@aol.com wrote:
> Thanks Lynn,
> One good picture answered all the questions.
> G.Aman
>
>
>
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
18:03:00
Message 19
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| Subject: | Here's an idea that DIDN'T work |
Lynn,
My theory is that when WOT causes a reduction in power, or when the last
inch of throttle produces no effect ,I think that losses in the collector
are the cause.
Assuming collector losses, the WOT position would supply too much fuel and
run over rich especially to # 1 and 2.
For that reason I am concentrating on a symmetrical plenum fed from
underneath.
I am impressed with what Pete has done.
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
Matteson
Sent: Tuesday, 8 September 2009 10:19 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work
One thing I've found with the TBI is that I have to pull back from
WOT about 1/4" on an approximately 3" long throttle throw, to get the
max rpm's on takeoff. At full throw of the vernier throttle control,
I'll see (on one climbout) maybe 2940 rpm, and if I pull (rotate,
actually) back on the throttle about 1/4", I'll see 2990, maybe 3010
rpm. I've done this back and forth during the climbout and the result
is usually always an increase in rpm when pulled back from WOT. When
I talked with Paul from Rotec at Oshkosh, he said that the use of the
Rotec TBI on a 2200 Jabiru might require the need to reduce the
travel on the slide a small amount for best results. Interestingly,
Aerocarb suggests this same thing in their instructions.
My static reading is about 2850-2870 with both the TBI and when I had
the Bing installed. I have a Sensenich 62" x 46" glass-covered wood
prop, which for my airframe gives a decent climbout, but relatively
good speed (for a draggy airframe) in cruise....maybe 95-105 mph.
Straight and level rpm is about 3000-3100 on an average day.
Sometimes I'll see this rpm on climbs, too, so it must depend on the
atmospheric conditions.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
On Sep 7, 2009, at 5:44 PM, Peter Harris wrote:
> <peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>
> Looks like good work Lynn. Maybe you have got the splitter as good
> as it can
> be.
> I am interested in your test to WOT especially to see if you find no
> increase in power for the last inch of throttle. I have taken this
> effect to
> be an indication of losses in the collector (as proven by my test
> with the
> baffle plate inserted) but it may be that my prop is overloading
> the system.
> I am getting 2760RPM static with all of my ground tests.
> The prop is 55X72 as used on my Quickie and I get 170KTS CAS at
> 2900RPM WOT
> in level flight at 3000ft.It would be nice to find that extra power
> and
> maybe set a record for this type.
> Peter
>
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
18:03:00
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work |
Hi Jerome-
Right now I have zero electrical gadgets on my plane that would
prevent me from flying it...except the ignition. When I changed the
stock ignition system for the Electroair, it was with the
understanding that I could still someday find myself looking for
another wheat field to land in....not that the stock ignition system
was the cause for the first off-field landing. I have a redundant
battery to hopefully delay that circumstance, ignition-wise, and a
dual ignition system, of course. And I'm aware of the possibility of
something else in the ignition system failing, just as I was aware of
the rotors possibly falling off the stock system...which happened
once. I'm just not that comfortable with electronics, and tend to
stay away from using anything, let alone building anything,
electronic in nature.
So I'm more apt to conger up some mechanical device to suit my fuel
injection needs. And "apt to" doesn't mean I'd rule out trying an
electronic fuel injection system, just that mechanical ones do work,
albeit a little less convenient than the electronic ones.
Because I'm mechanical in nature, I find carb/injector leaning by
hand interesting, and I would get bored flying if I didn't have
something to think about, fiddle with, or otherwise think about. The
cost factor would not sway me either way when it came to using
mechanical or electronic fuel injection. I'm not rich, I just like
the challenge of building something mechanical....the "old way" if
you will.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
On Sep 8, 2009, at 1:58 PM, Jrme Delamare wrote:
> J=E9rme_Delamare?= <jeromedelamare@free.fr>
>
> Hi Lynn,
>
> Electronic could be the cheap way ;o)
>
> For example, the electric homemade system I described few weeks ago
> to lean
> a bing cost... 0$
> You just have to find a small electric motor (in an old printer for
> example), spend a few hours to build a pump and you're ready to lean.
> 0$, 0 mechanical adaptation, no carb to trim and no fear during the
> first
> take off ;o)
>
> Perhaps of a small electrical system could reduce EGT spread to ?
>
> Jrme, dreaming
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work |
Which Pete? Peter Disher? Pete Krotje?
Like you, I am convinced that the answer lies in the cylinders
pulling their fuel/air charge from a central point, equidistant from
the metering device. The next time I have the cowl off, I'm going to
see how much room I have to play with down there. It might be as
simple as rerouting the intake pipes...making new ones, most
likely....and laying the TBI flat in an updraft configuration. Or
making air-only controls for the pipes and mechanically injecting the
fuel into the pipes, right at the valves.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
On Sep 8, 2009, at 6:05 PM, Peter Harris wrote:
> <peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>
> Lynn,
> My theory is that when WOT causes a reduction in power, or when the
> last
> inch of throttle produces no effect ,I think that losses in the
> collector
> are the cause.
> Assuming collector losses, the WOT position would supply too much
> fuel and
> run over rich especially to # 1 and 2.
> For that reason I am concentrating on a symmetrical plenum fed from
> underneath.
> I am impressed with what Pete has done.
> Peter
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work |
Listers-
I just revisited my picture collection, and found some pictures of
the oil pan area where the manifold bolts on. I see that the area
where a splitter wing through-bolt would penetrate through the
manifold, is machined/cast away on the pan, so that a hole drilled
completely through the manifold would exit out into open space. This
would facilitate being able to slide modified splitter wings into the
manifold, making experimenting with their shapes a LOT easier. All
one would have to do is to remove a little metal from the area in
front of the wing, on the upper and lower halves of the manifold, and
future modified splitters could be easily installed/removed. I know
that this is an area that I will be concentrating on in an effort to
improve fuel/air distribution.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
On Sep 8, 2009, at 5:51 AM, Lynn Matteson wrote:
> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Hi Jim-
> Now that's an interesting idea! I'll give that a try the next time
> I have the bottom cowl off. I've been wanting to design a larger
> heat muff around the muffler, so that might be a good time to do
> some more intake manifold exploration.
>
> Taking this thought a bit further, I might try something that would
> not be "trapped" between the two halves of the manifold, but could
> be inserted into the manifold from the front...right behind the 4-
> bolt "adapter flange". That would certainly make the changing of
> any different type "splitter wings" a lot easier. Maybe drill and
> tap the upper half of the manifold....oops, that material is not
> thick enough. Probably have to drill and tap the oil pan at the
> appropriate spot, so that the attaching bolt could go right through
> both halves of the manifold and secure into the pan. I don't recall
> if the oil pan is thicker at the point where the other bolts
> holding the manifold in place are secured. Do you have a spare oil
> pan, Jim, that you could look at? It would probably have to be the
> early 2200. I'm thinking that Jabiru would probably have cast in
> some "bumps" in that area where the bolts penetrate.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
> Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection
> Status: flying
>
>
> On Sep 7, 2009, at 2:55 PM, jim wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Lynn
>>
>> Something you may want to try is to replace the "splitter wing"
>> with a round
>> bar stock 12mm in dia. I have had some customers try this with
>> good results.
>> The theory behind the round stock it it cause's turbulence in the
>> plenum for
>> better fuel distribution? But the guys that have done this report
>> the EGT's
>> are more uniform between the cyl's..
>>
>>
>> Jim McCormick
>> Jabiru Pacific LLC
>> 255 W Fallbrook Suite 202B
>> Fresno, Ca 93711
>> P 559.431.1701
>> F 559.233.3676
>> www.jabirupacific.com
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Here's an idea that DIDN'T work |
Pete Disher.
Pete D has made a beautiful symmetrical updraft plenum close to what I have
in mind.
To make space for my (end fed) plenum I have removed the silencer.
I used the NACA principle to shape the pipe ends and this has softened the
exhaust note and theoretically reduced exhaust back pressure.
Without a balance pipe it beats a little but they say it sounds like a V8.
Re multipoint fuel injection it was beyond my budget as the injectors I am
using are $100 each and any alteration to the induction pipes I have found
is very time consuming.
In retrospect I am inclined to think that the use of a GOOD slide carb like
a Posa or the Revmaster and feeding a symmetrical plenum by updraft may give
as much power as fuel injection although the advantage of fuel injection is
better atomization. A slide good carb would be cheaper and maybe safer.It
may be significant to know that I made no gain in static RPM when I fuel
injected after removing the Bing.
At some future stage I may modify my Aerocarb and try it in place of my
throttle body but apart from the faulty cable actuation ,the mixture control
and atomization seems primitive.
I had a Posa fitted to a Revmaster some years ago and it worked perfectly
but I don't think they are available now.
Some time it would be good to try to quantify all these ideas by looking at
max. static RPM for a given prop.
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
Matteson
Sent: Wednesday, 9 September 2009 9:10 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work
Which Pete? Peter Disher? Pete Krotje?
Like you, I am convinced that the answer lies in the cylinders
pulling their fuel/air charge from a central point, equidistant from
the metering device. The next time I have the cowl off, I'm going to
see how much room I have to play with down there. It might be as
simple as rerouting the intake pipes...making new ones, most
likely....and laying the TBI flat in an updraft configuration. Or
making air-only controls for the pipes and mechanically injecting the
fuel into the pipes, right at the valves.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
On Sep 8, 2009, at 6:05 PM, Peter Harris wrote:
> <peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>
> Lynn,
> My theory is that when WOT causes a reduction in power, or when the
> last
> inch of throttle produces no effect ,I think that losses in the
> collector
> are the cause.
> Assuming collector losses, the WOT position would supply too much
> fuel and
> run over rich especially to # 1 and 2.
> For that reason I am concentrating on a symmetrical plenum fed from
> underneath.
> I am impressed with what Pete has done.
> Peter
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
06:48:00
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work |
Have you had a look at the Rotec TBI? It is similar to the A'carb,
but in my opinion, it is better built, and looks like it has better
atomization. It almost HAS to have better fuel atomization, being
that the fuel is being introduced to the air through 50-some tiny
holes in the metering tube. I've had an Aerocarb in my hands, and
although I've not used it, I just like the way the Rotec is built,
and the way the slide feels when operated. And given the fact that
the Rotec I bought and installed has worked right from the first
flight, and reading the stories...yours included....of those who have
tried the A'carb and hated it, I'd have to say that the Rotec is a
better/easier unit to use.
Where would I find info on the "NACA principle"? I may at some future
point have to remove my muffler as well, but I'd rather keep my
engine quieter, rather than go for more horsepower. I don't want to
overstress the engine, just make it more efficient in operation, so
I'm not looking at producing more horsepower or rpm's, just
reliability and smooth operation.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Peter Harris wrote:
> <peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>
> Pete Disher.
> Pete D has made a beautiful symmetrical updraft plenum close to
> what I have
> in mind.
> To make space for my (end fed) plenum I have removed the silencer.
> I used the NACA principle to shape the pipe ends and this has
> softened the
> exhaust note and theoretically reduced exhaust back pressure.
> Without a balance pipe it beats a little but they say it sounds
> like a V8.
> Re multipoint fuel injection it was beyond my budget as the
> injectors I am
> using are $100 each and any alteration to the induction pipes I
> have found
> is very time consuming.
> In retrospect I am inclined to think that the use of a GOOD slide
> carb like
> a Posa or the Revmaster and feeding a symmetrical plenum by updraft
> may give
> as much power as fuel injection although the advantage of fuel
> injection is
> better atomization. A slide good carb would be cheaper and maybe
> safer.It
> may be significant to know that I made no gain in static RPM when I
> fuel
> injected after removing the Bing.
> At some future stage I may modify my Aerocarb and try it in place
> of my
> throttle body but apart from the faulty cable actuation ,the
> mixture control
> and atomization seems primitive.
> I had a Posa fitted to a Revmaster some years ago and it worked
> perfectly
> but I don't think they are available now.
> Some time it would be good to try to quantify all these ideas by
> looking at
> max. static RPM for a given prop.
>
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Wednesday, 9 September 2009 9:10 AM
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work
>
> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Which Pete? Peter Disher? Pete Krotje?
Message 25
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| Subject: | Here's an idea that DIDN'T work |
Lynn,
I have attached a pic of the modified tail pipes. You will be familiar with
the shape. There is a progressive reduction in pressure as the exhaust
progresses out the pipe. This eliminates the "bark" and should make for
reduced back pressure. It was one of those ideas you get in the middle of
the night. (Normally this NACA shape is used as an air inlet)
I found it softened the tone and is comfortable noise level in flight.
I will look into the Rotec but at present I am running fuel injection with a
Jenvey throttle body.
The Aerocarb suffers from basic design faults because of the offset leverage
from the cable attachment. At low throttle settings it can jam and the
harder you pull the cable the harder it jams.
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
Matteson
Sent: Wednesday, 9 September 2009 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work
Have you had a look at the Rotec TBI? It is similar to the A'carb,
but in my opinion, it is better built, and looks like it has better
atomization. It almost HAS to have better fuel atomization, being
that the fuel is being introduced to the air through 50-some tiny
holes in the metering tube. I've had an Aerocarb in my hands, and
although I've not used it, I just like the way the Rotec is built,
and the way the slide feels when operated. And given the fact that
the Rotec I bought and installed has worked right from the first
flight, and reading the stories...yours included....of those who have
tried the A'carb and hated it, I'd have to say that the Rotec is a
better/easier unit to use.
Where would I find info on the "NACA principle"? I may at some future
point have to remove my muffler as well, but I'd rather keep my
engine quieter, rather than go for more horsepower. I don't want to
overstress the engine, just make it more efficient in operation, so
I'm not looking at producing more horsepower or rpm's, just
reliability and smooth operation.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 760.3 hrs
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Peter Harris wrote:
> <peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>
> Pete Disher.
> Pete D has made a beautiful symmetrical updraft plenum close to
> what I have
> in mind.
> To make space for my (end fed) plenum I have removed the silencer.
> I used the NACA principle to shape the pipe ends and this has
> softened the
> exhaust note and theoretically reduced exhaust back pressure.
> Without a balance pipe it beats a little but they say it sounds
> like a V8.
> Re multipoint fuel injection it was beyond my budget as the
> injectors I am
> using are $100 each and any alteration to the induction pipes I
> have found
> is very time consuming.
> In retrospect I am inclined to think that the use of a GOOD slide
> carb like
> a Posa or the Revmaster and feeding a symmetrical plenum by updraft
> may give
> as much power as fuel injection although the advantage of fuel
> injection is
> better atomization. A slide good carb would be cheaper and maybe
> safer.It
> may be significant to know that I made no gain in static RPM when I
> fuel
> injected after removing the Bing.
> At some future stage I may modify my Aerocarb and try it in place
> of my
> throttle body but apart from the faulty cable actuation ,the
> mixture control
> and atomization seems primitive.
> I had a Posa fitted to a Revmaster some years ago and it worked
> perfectly
> but I don't think they are available now.
> Some time it would be good to try to quantify all these ideas by
> looking at
> max. static RPM for a given prop.
>
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Wednesday, 9 September 2009 9:10 AM
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Here's an idea that DIDN'T work
>
> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Which Pete? Peter Disher? Pete Krotje?
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
06:48:00
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