Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:37 AM - Re: Problem after ground run (wypaul)
2. 06:35 AM - Re: Problem after ground run (Kayberg@AOL.COM)
3. 08:36 AM - Re: Problem after ground run (dons701)
4. 09:09 AM - Re: Problem after ground run (zeprep251@aol.com)
5. 12:35 PM - Re: Re: Problem after ground run (Kayberg@aol.com)
6. 12:50 PM - Re: Re: Problem after ground run (Kayberg@aol.com)
7. 03:08 PM - Re: Re: Problem after ground run (Lynn Matteson)
8. 03:53 PM - Re: Re: Problem after ground run (Richard Girard)
9. 03:56 PM - Re: Re: Problem after ground run (Robert Rivard)
10. 06:03 PM - Re: Re: Problem after ground run (Michael Hilderbrand)
11. 07:38 PM - Re: Re: Problem after ground run (Lynn Matteson)
12. 08:32 PM - Re: Re: Problem after ground run (Richard Girard)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Problem after ground run |
It is an easy job to pull the head but check the rocker arm first, that will tell
you if it is the valve set as Peter and I suspect.
--------
Paul Spackman
Q-2 Jabiru 3300
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269209#269209
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Problem after ground run |
Michael, the noise you hear is a valve sticking. It is hanging up
momentarily and then snaping down. I have seen it happen before.
Talk to Pete or someone at Shelbyville, but I suspect you may have some
fuel contamination issues.
It is not an expensive problem.
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 10/23/2009 11:34:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
m_hilderbrand@sbcglobal.net writes:
I was wondering how "easy" it would be to remove a jug, or just the head.
My father was thinking maybe a circlip, valve, or messed up ring being
the culprit (?).
I plan on calling Pete Monday.
Michael Hilderbrand
Derby, Kansas
Http://www.kansasflying.com
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| Subject: | Re: Problem after ground run |
Hi Doug, are you talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to stick ? What
typically has been seen as the cause of sticking lifters when found on 2200
and 3300's ? Anyone ?
Thanks, Don Burkholder
--------
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 55 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269233#269233
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Problem after ground run |
Mike,
Pull the valve cover and watch the valves and springs as you rotate the en
gine.you should not have clearance between the valve and rocker arm.Sounds
like a valve sticking.
G.Aman jabiru 2200A
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Hilderbrand <m_hilderbrand@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Fri, Oct 23, 2009 9:22 pm
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Problem after ground run
Hi everyone,
Today during another ground run to adjust the aerocarb (on the Jab3300A)
my father and I noticed a rattling sound. After turning the prop over by
hand I noticed a "clonk" sound during compression of the #6 cylinder. Lo
oks like there will be NO first flight anytime soon :(
I am scared that maybe the # 6 overheated. Even though I kill the engine
when the CHT gets close to max, they still seem to creep up past max - de
layed response. I am hoping a brief period over 356 F would not cause majo
r damage. Also to note: there is some spotted areas of "crumpling" of the
cylinder coating (kind of like painting over an area contaminated by anot
her chemical).
I am debating WHAT the heck to do? Should I tear this down myself or send
it back to TN for repairs. Any thought? Here is a link to a Youtube vide
o I made while out there
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22z4HvFkfbc
Michael Hilderbrand
Derby, Kansas
Http://www.kansasflying.com
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Problem after ground run |
In a message dated 10/24/2009 11:36:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
burdon1@COMCAST.NET writes:
Hi Doug, are you talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to stick
? What typically has been seen as the cause of sticking lifters when found
on 2200 and 3300's ? Anyone ?
Thanks, Don Burkholder
Use of autofuel with ethanol prompted some problems. There was some kind
of unknown crud that showed up as a yellow gunk which seemed to gum up the
valves and left deposits in the cylinders. It was bad enough that the
lifters stuck and the valves bent. There was no carbon buildup.
When the engine is cold, at least at first, the lifters dont stick and the
engine will run fine. But when it is warm or hot, you can get the
momentary sticking like you can hear on the video.
I would suggest checking the fuel by removing and dumping the Bing bowl in
a clear glass jar, running the fuel pump and letting the fuel in the lines
run into another clear jar for a pint or so and then checking your filter
(I would replace it, they are cheap). If you have a gascolater, then dump
it as well. Let the jars set overnite and see what ends up in the
bottom.
It is possible to run really rich and get lifter sticking as well....at
least I would think so. I dont know about that.
The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a valve spring
compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the valves. Then you
would know for sure what the substance is.
If you are in the early stages of using the engine, I hope you are
checking the CHTs carefully.
You should take a good look at the fuel before calling Shelbyville.
Doug
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Problem after ground run |
Sorry, all, I thought Don was the guy with the problem...but Hilderbrand
is in Kansas with the sticking valve.
Please take that into account.
doug koenigsberg
In a message dated 10/24/2009 3:36:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
Kayberg@aol.com writes:
In a message dated 10/24/2009 11:36:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
burdon1@COMCAST.NET writes:
Hi Doug, are you talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to stick
? What typically has been seen as the cause of sticking lifters when found
on 2200 and 3300's ? Anyone ?
Thanks, Don Burkholder
Use of autofuel with ethanol prompted some problems. There was some kind
of unknown crud that showed up as a yellow gunk which seemed to gum up the
valves and left deposits in the cylinders. It was bad enough that the
lifters stuck and the valves bent. There was no carbon buildup.
When the engine is cold, at least at first, the lifters dont stick and the
engine will run fine. But when it is warm or hot, you can get the
momentary sticking like you can hear on the video.
I would suggest checking the fuel by removing and dumping the Bing bowl in
a clear glass jar, running the fuel pump and letting the fuel in the lines
run into another clear jar for a pint or so and then checking your filter
(I would replace it, they are cheap). If you have a gascolater, then dump
it as well. Let the jars set overnite and see what ends up in the
bottom.
It is possible to run really rich and get lifter sticking as well....at
least I would think so. I dont know about that.
The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a valve
spring compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the valves. Then you
would know for sure what the substance is.
If you are in the early stages of using the engine, I hope you are
checking the CHTs carefully.
You should take a good look at the fuel before calling Shelbyville.
Doug
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Problem after ground run |
You don't even need a valve spring compressor the *remove* the
springs (for installing, you do). Lay the head onto a wadded-up shop
rag. Using a deep socket that is as large around as the outside
diameter of the spring retainer, hold the socket down against the
spring retainer with the "nut" end of the socket against the
retainer, and (with a hammer) whack the "drive" end of the socket
against the retainer. Best to hold the socket with a rag wrapped
around your hand. This will drive the retainer downward, and the
keepers will fall out of their usual position which is wedged against
the valve by the retainer. It takes more time to explain this
procedure than to actually do it. You cannot reinstall them this way,
but it will allow you to remove them and get to the heart of the
matter....inspection. With care, they can be reinstalled with a c-
clamp and a short length of PVC pipe with a notch cut in one side.
The notch is so you can reinsert the keepers into the spring
retainer. This is a much trickier job than the removal, by far.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 802 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs--198 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
On Oct 24, 2009, at 3:31 PM, Kayberg@aol.com wrote:
>
> The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a
> valve spring compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the
> valves. Then you would know for sure what the substance is.
> Doug
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Problem after ground run |
Mike, Should you need a valve spring compressor, I have one you're welcome
to use. If you need to do any dimensional inspection of the head I have a
pretty good array of tools and a small granite slab, too.
Rick Girard
just down the road in Udall
On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
>
> You don't even need a valve spring compressor the *remove* the springs (for
> installing, you do). Lay the head onto a wadded-up shop rag. Using a deep
> socket that is as large around as the outside diameter of the spring
> retainer, hold the socket down against the spring retainer with the "nut"
> end of the socket against the retainer, and (with a hammer) whack the
> "drive" end of the socket against the retainer. Best to hold the socket with
> a rag wrapped around your hand. This will drive the retainer downward, and
> the keepers will fall out of their usual position which is wedged against
> the valve by the retainer. It takes more time to explain this procedure than
> to actually do it. You cannot reinstall them this way, but it will allow you
> to remove them and get to the heart of the matter....inspection. With care,
> they can be reinstalled with a c-clamp and a short length of PVC pipe with a
> notch cut in one side. The notch is so you can reinsert the keepers into the
> spring retainer. This is a much trickier job than the removal, by far.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 802 hrs
> Countdown to 1000 hrs--198 to go
> Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection
> Status: flying (and learning)
>
>
> On Oct 24, 2009, at 3:31 PM, Kayberg@aol.com wrote:
>
>>
>> The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a valve
>> spring compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the valves. Then you
>> would know for sure what the substance is.
>> Doug
>>
>>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Problem after ground run |
Gentlemen
Since this sight is new to me I have a question. Who is Pete at Shelbyville
and how would I get in touch if necessary?
BOB
--- On Sat, 10/24/09, Kayberg@aol.com <Kayberg@aol.com> wrote:
From: Kayberg@aol.com <Kayberg@aol.com>
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Problem after ground run
Sorry, all,- I thought Don was the guy with the problem...but Hilderbrand
is in Kansas with the sticking valve.
-
Please take that into account.
-
doug koenigsberg
-
-
In a message dated 10/24/2009 3:36:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Kayberg@a
ol.com writes:
In a message dated 10/24/2009 11:36:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, burdon1@
COMCAST.NET writes:
Hi Doug, are you talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to stick ?
What typically has been seen as the cause of sticking lifters when found o
n 2200 and 3300's ? Anyone ?
- - Thanks, Don Burkholder
-
-
Use of autofuel with ethanol-prompted some problems.-- There was some
kind of unknown crud that showed up as a yellow gunk which seemed to gum u
p the valves and left deposits in the cylinders.-- It was bad enough th
at the lifters stuck and the valves bent.- There was no carbon buildup.
-
When the engine is cold, at least at first, the lifters dont stick and the
engine will run fine.- But when it is warm or hot, you can get the moment
ary sticking like you can hear on the video.--
-
I would suggest checking the fuel by removing and dumping the Bing bowl in
a clear glass jar, running the fuel pump and letting the fuel in the lines
run into another clear jar for a pint or so and then checking your filter (
I would replace it, they are cheap).-- If you have a gascolater, then d
ump it as well.--- Let the jars set overnite and see what ends up in
the bottom.
-
It is possible to run really rich and get lifter sticking as well....at lea
st I would think so.- I dont know about that.
-
The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a valve spring
compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the valves.-- Then you w
ould know for sure what the substance is.
-
If you are in the early stages of using the engine,- I hope you are check
ing the CHTs carefully.--
-
You should take a good look at the fuel before calling Shelbyville.
-
Doug
BLOCKQUOTE>
-
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Problem after ground run |
After taking the valve covers off it-does not look-like a rocker &-pu
shrod slip. The knocking-sound is REALLY prominent about 3" out-from th
e crankcase on the cylinder (using the-old screwdriver to the ear trick).
-My father has a hard time believing a sticking valve would-be heard so
-close to the crankcase.- I am-NOT real mechanical so I refer often t
o my father's suggestion and ideas. He thinks-the sound is probably from
a messed up piston ring - at least, that is-his latest thoughts. =0A=0AAn
other question I have:--IF this requires-replacing the piston and hon
ing the cylinder, where would you guys take it?--Is this engine easy en
ough to disassemble that a seasoned veteran mechanic should be able to perf
orm such a task? Maybe-an AP?- And, can-this task be performed withou
t taking the engine off the mount?-- The local-airport owner was tell
ing me that AP's take jugs off certificated engines independently all the t
ime....-- Any suggestions?-- =0A=0AThanks!=0A-Michael Hilderbrand
=0ADerby, Kansas=0AHttp://www.kansasflying.com =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________
___________________=0AFrom: "Kayberg@aol.com" <Kayberg@aol.com>=0ATo: jabir
uengine-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 2:46:02 PM=0A
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Problem after ground run=0A=0ASorry, al
l,- I thought Don was the guy with the problem...but Hilderbrand is in Ka
nsas with the sticking valve.=0A=0APlease take that into account.=0A=0Adoug
koenigsberg=0A=0A=0AIn a message dated 10/24/2009 3:36:11 P.M. Eastern Day
light Time, Kayberg@aol.com writes:=0AIn a message dated 10/24/2009 11:36:4
8 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, burdon1@COMCAST.NET writes:=0A>=0A>>Hi Doug,
are you talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to stick ? What typ
ically has been seen as the cause of sticking lifters when found on 2200 an
d 3300's ? Anyone ?=0A>>- - Thanks, Don Burkholder=0A>>=0A>>=0A>=0A>=0A
>Use of autofuel with ethanol-prompted some problems.-- There was som
e kind of unknown crud that showed up as a yellow gunk which seemed to gum
up the valves and left deposits in the cylinders.-- It was bad enough t
hat the lifters stuck and the valves bent.- There was no carbon buildup.
=0A>=0A>When the engine is cold, at least at first, the lifters dont stick
and the engine will run fine.- But when it is warm or hot, you can get th
e momentary sticking like you can hear on the video.-- =0A>=0A>I would
suggest checking the fuel by removing and dumping the Bing bowl in a clear
glass jar, running the fuel pump and letting the fuel in the lines run into
another clear jar for a pint or so and then checking your filter (I would
replace it, they are cheap).-- If you have a gascolater, then dump it a
s well.--- Let the jars set overnite and see what ends up in the bott
om.=0A>=0A>It is possible to run really rich and get lifter sticking as wel
l....at least I would think so.- I dont know about that.=0A>=0A>The heads
do come off quite easily and if you have access to a valve spring compress
or of some sort, it is easy to remove the valves.-- Then you would know
for sure what the substance is.=0A>=0A>If you are in the early stages of u
sing the engine,- I hope you are checking the CHTs carefully.-- =0A>
=0A>You should take a good look at the fuel before calling Shelbyville.=0A>
=0A>Doug=0A> ===================
=========== =0A
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Problem after ground run |
I'd keep it right at home and bring a "seasoned mechanic" over for
supper and a pretty simple job....unless it's under warranty, and
that would complicate things.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 802 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs--198 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
On Oct 24, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Michael Hilderbrand wrote:
> After taking the valve covers off it does not look like a rocker &
> pushrod slip. The knocking sound is REALLY prominent about 3" out
> from the crankcase on the cylinder (using the old screwdriver to
> the ear trick). My father has a hard time believing a sticking
> valve would be heard so close to the crankcase. I am NOT real
> mechanical so I refer often to my father's suggestion and ideas. He
> thinks the sound is probably from a messed up piston ring - at
> least, that is his latest thoughts.
>
> Another question I have: IF this requires replacing the piston and
> honing the cylinder, where would you guys take it? Is this engine
> easy enough to disassemble that a seasoned veteran mechanic should
> be able to perform such a task? Maybe an AP? And, can this task be
> performed without taking the engine off the mount? The local
> airport owner was telling me that AP's take jugs off certificated
> engines independently all the time.... Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Michael Hilderbrand
> Derby, Kansas
> Http://www.kansasflying.com
>
>
> From: "Kayberg@aol.com" <Kayberg@aol.com>
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 2:46:02 PM
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Problem after ground run
>
> Sorry, all, I thought Don was the guy with the problem...but
> Hilderbrand is in Kansas with the sticking valve.
>
> Please take that into account.
>
> doug koenigsberg
>
>
> In a message dated 10/24/2009 3:36:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> Kayberg@aol.com writes:
> In a message dated 10/24/2009 11:36:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> burdon1@COMCAST.NET writes:
>
> Hi Doug, are you talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to
> stick ? What typically has been seen as the cause of sticking
> lifters when found on 2200 and 3300's ? Anyone ?
> Thanks, Don Burkholder
>
>
> Use of autofuel with ethanol prompted some problems. There was
> some kind of unknown crud that showed up as a yellow gunk which
> seemed to gum up the valves and left deposits in the cylinders.
> It was bad enough that the lifters stuck and the valves bent.
> There was no carbon buildup.
>
> When the engine is cold, at least at first, the lifters dont stick
> and the engine will run fine. But when it is warm or hot, you can
> get the momentary sticking like you can hear on the video.
>
> I would suggest checking the fuel by removing and dumping the Bing
> bowl in a clear glass jar, running the fuel pump and letting the
> fuel in the lines run into another clear jar for a pint or so and
> then checking your filter (I would replace it, they are cheap).
> If you have a gascolater, then dump it as well. Let the jars set
> overnite and see what ends up in the bottom.
>
> It is possible to run really rich and get lifter sticking as
> well....at least I would think so. I dont know about that.
>
> The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a
> valve spring compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the
> valves. Then you would know for sure what the substance is.
>
> If you are in the early stages of using the engine, I hope you are
> checking the CHTs carefully.
>
> You should take a good look at the fuel before calling Shelbyville.
>
> Doug
> =========== BLOCKQUOTE>
>
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> contribution_-
> ===========================================================
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Problem after ground run |
Mike, Well the 3 inch dimension corresponds to the engines 74 mm stroke, but
wouldn't a ring problem that makes a sound at the bottom of the stoke also
make one at the top when the piston reverses direction again? When you say "not
look like a rocker & pushrod slip" does that mean you've tested for rocker
arm pushrod clearance all the way through the full cycle of the engine? Have
you drained the oil and run a magnet through it looking for iron bits? Taken
the oil filter off and pulled it apart to look for debris caught in the
filter element? What kind of noise are you getting when you rock the crank
shaft back and forth at the "clunk" point?
Do you know anyone who has a bore scope to look at the cylinder walls for
evidence of damage and the top of the piston to see if there are marks from
the valve hitting the piston? Was #6 the only head that exceeded CHT limits?
I've got a regular medical stethoscope if you want to have a bit better
listen to the sounds the engine is making.
Rick Girard
On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Michael Hilderbrand <
m_hilderbrand@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> After taking the valve covers off it does not look like a rocker & pushrod
> slip. The knocking sound is REALLY prominent about 3" out from the crankcase
> on the cylinder (using the old screwdriver to the ear trick). My father has
> a hard time believing a sticking valve would be heard so close to the
> crankcase. I am NOT real mechanical so I refer often to my father's
> suggestion and ideas. He thinks the sound is probably from a messed up
> piston ring - at least, that is his latest thoughts.
>
> Another question I have: IF this requires replacing the piston and honing
> the cylinder, where would you guys take it? Is this engine easy enough to
> disassemble that a seasoned veteran mechanic should be able to perform such
> a task? Maybe an AP? And, can this task be performed without taking the
> engine off the mount? The local airport owner was telling me that AP's
> take jugs off certificated engines independently all the time.... Any
> suggestions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Michael Hilderbrand
> Derby, Kansas
> Http://www.kansasflying.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* "Kayberg@aol.com" <Kayberg@aol.com>
> *To:* jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, October 24, 2009 2:46:02 PM
> *Subject:* Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Problem after ground run
>
> Sorry, all, I thought Don was the guy with the problem...but Hilderbrand
> is in Kansas with the sticking valve.
>
> Please take that into account.
>
> doug koenigsberg
>
>
> In a message dated 10/24/2009 3:36:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> Kayberg@aol.com writes:
>
> In a message dated 10/24/2009 11:36:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> burdon1@COMCAST.NET writes:
>
>
> Hi Doug, are you talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to stick ?
> What typically has been seen as the cause of sticking lifters when found on
> 2200 and 3300's ? Anyone ?
> Thanks, Don Burkholder
>
>
> Use of autofuel with ethanol prompted some problems. There was some kind
> of unknown crud that showed up as a yellow gunk which seemed to gum up the
> valves and left deposits in the cylinders. It was bad enough that the
> lifters stuck and the valves bent. There was no carbon buildup.
>
> When the engine is cold, at least at first, the lifters dont stick and the
> engine will run fine. But when it is warm or hot, you can get the momentary
> sticking like you can hear on the video.
>
> I would suggest checking the fuel by removing and dumping the Bing bowl in
> a clear glass jar, running the fuel pump and letting the fuel in the lines
> run into another clear jar for a pint or so and then checking your filter (I
> would replace it, they are cheap). If you have a gascolater, then dump it
> as well. Let the jars set overnite and see what ends up in the bottom.
>
> It is possible to run really rich and get lifter sticking as well....at
> least I would think so. I dont know about that.
>
> The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a valve spring
> compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the valves. Then you would
> know for sure what the substance is.
>
> If you are in the early stages of using the engine, I hope you are
> checking the CHTs carefully.
>
> You should take a good look at the fuel before calling Shelbyville.
>
> Doug
>
> * =========== BLOCKQUOTE>*
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
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