---------------------------------------------------------- JabiruEngine-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 10/24/09: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:37 AM - Re: Problem after ground run (wypaul) 2. 06:35 AM - Re: Problem after ground run (Kayberg@AOL.COM) 3. 08:36 AM - Re: Problem after ground run (dons701) 4. 09:09 AM - Re: Problem after ground run (zeprep251@aol.com) 5. 12:35 PM - Re: Re: Problem after ground run (Kayberg@aol.com) 6. 12:50 PM - Re: Re: Problem after ground run (Kayberg@aol.com) 7. 03:08 PM - Re: Re: Problem after ground run (Lynn Matteson) 8. 03:53 PM - Re: Re: Problem after ground run (Richard Girard) 9. 03:56 PM - Re: Re: Problem after ground run (Robert Rivard) 10. 06:03 PM - Re: Re: Problem after ground run (Michael Hilderbrand) 11. 07:38 PM - Re: Re: Problem after ground run (Lynn Matteson) 12. 08:32 PM - Re: Re: Problem after ground run (Richard Girard) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:41 AM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Problem after ground run From: "wypaul" It is an easy job to pull the head but check the rocker arm first, that will tell you if it is the valve set as Peter and I suspect. -------- Paul Spackman Q-2 Jabiru 3300 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269209#269209 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:05 AM PST US From: Kayberg@AOL.COM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Problem after ground run Michael, the noise you hear is a valve sticking. It is hanging up momentarily and then snaping down. I have seen it happen before. Talk to Pete or someone at Shelbyville, but I suspect you may have some fuel contamination issues. It is not an expensive problem. Doug Koenigsberg In a message dated 10/23/2009 11:34:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, m_hilderbrand@sbcglobal.net writes: I was wondering how "easy" it would be to remove a jug, or just the head. My father was thinking maybe a circlip, valve, or messed up ring being the culprit (?). I plan on calling Pete Monday. Michael Hilderbrand Derby, Kansas Http://www.kansasflying.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:35 AM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Problem after ground run From: "dons701" Hi Doug, are you talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to stick ? What typically has been seen as the cause of sticking lifters when found on 2200 and 3300's ? Anyone ? Thanks, Don Burkholder -------- Zenith 701 #76120 Jabiru 2200A #2456 55 hours Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269233#269233 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:09:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Problem after ground run From: zeprep251@aol.com Mike, Pull the valve cover and watch the valves and springs as you rotate the en gine.you should not have clearance between the valve and rocker arm.Sounds like a valve sticking. G.Aman jabiru 2200A -----Original Message----- From: Michael Hilderbrand Sent: Fri, Oct 23, 2009 9:22 pm Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Problem after ground run Hi everyone, Today during another ground run to adjust the aerocarb (on the Jab3300A) my father and I noticed a rattling sound. After turning the prop over by hand I noticed a "clonk" sound during compression of the #6 cylinder. Lo oks like there will be NO first flight anytime soon :( I am scared that maybe the # 6 overheated. Even though I kill the engine when the CHT gets close to max, they still seem to creep up past max - de layed response. I am hoping a brief period over 356 F would not cause majo r damage. Also to note: there is some spotted areas of "crumpling" of the cylinder coating (kind of like painting over an area contaminated by anot her chemical). I am debating WHAT the heck to do? Should I tear this down myself or send it back to TN for repairs. Any thought? Here is a link to a Youtube vide o I made while out there http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22z4HvFkfbc Michael Hilderbrand Derby, Kansas Http://www.kansasflying.com ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:35:41 PM PST US From: Kayberg@aol.com Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Problem after ground run In a message dated 10/24/2009 11:36:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, burdon1@COMCAST.NET writes: Hi Doug, are you talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to stick ? What typically has been seen as the cause of sticking lifters when found on 2200 and 3300's ? Anyone ? Thanks, Don Burkholder Use of autofuel with ethanol prompted some problems. There was some kind of unknown crud that showed up as a yellow gunk which seemed to gum up the valves and left deposits in the cylinders. It was bad enough that the lifters stuck and the valves bent. There was no carbon buildup. When the engine is cold, at least at first, the lifters dont stick and the engine will run fine. But when it is warm or hot, you can get the momentary sticking like you can hear on the video. I would suggest checking the fuel by removing and dumping the Bing bowl in a clear glass jar, running the fuel pump and letting the fuel in the lines run into another clear jar for a pint or so and then checking your filter (I would replace it, they are cheap). If you have a gascolater, then dump it as well. Let the jars set overnite and see what ends up in the bottom. It is possible to run really rich and get lifter sticking as well....at least I would think so. I dont know about that. The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a valve spring compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the valves. Then you would know for sure what the substance is. If you are in the early stages of using the engine, I hope you are checking the CHTs carefully. You should take a good look at the fuel before calling Shelbyville. Doug ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:50:03 PM PST US From: Kayberg@aol.com Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Problem after ground run Sorry, all, I thought Don was the guy with the problem...but Hilderbrand is in Kansas with the sticking valve. Please take that into account. doug koenigsberg In a message dated 10/24/2009 3:36:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Kayberg@aol.com writes: In a message dated 10/24/2009 11:36:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, burdon1@COMCAST.NET writes: Hi Doug, are you talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to stick ? What typically has been seen as the cause of sticking lifters when found on 2200 and 3300's ? Anyone ? Thanks, Don Burkholder Use of autofuel with ethanol prompted some problems. There was some kind of unknown crud that showed up as a yellow gunk which seemed to gum up the valves and left deposits in the cylinders. It was bad enough that the lifters stuck and the valves bent. There was no carbon buildup. When the engine is cold, at least at first, the lifters dont stick and the engine will run fine. But when it is warm or hot, you can get the momentary sticking like you can hear on the video. I would suggest checking the fuel by removing and dumping the Bing bowl in a clear glass jar, running the fuel pump and letting the fuel in the lines run into another clear jar for a pint or so and then checking your filter (I would replace it, they are cheap). If you have a gascolater, then dump it as well. Let the jars set overnite and see what ends up in the bottom. It is possible to run really rich and get lifter sticking as well....at least I would think so. I dont know about that. The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a valve spring compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the valves. Then you would know for sure what the substance is. If you are in the early stages of using the engine, I hope you are checking the CHTs carefully. You should take a good look at the fuel before calling Shelbyville. Doug ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:08:29 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Problem after ground run You don't even need a valve spring compressor the *remove* the springs (for installing, you do). Lay the head onto a wadded-up shop rag. Using a deep socket that is as large around as the outside diameter of the spring retainer, hold the socket down against the spring retainer with the "nut" end of the socket against the retainer, and (with a hammer) whack the "drive" end of the socket against the retainer. Best to hold the socket with a rag wrapped around your hand. This will drive the retainer downward, and the keepers will fall out of their usual position which is wedged against the valve by the retainer. It takes more time to explain this procedure than to actually do it. You cannot reinstall them this way, but it will allow you to remove them and get to the heart of the matter....inspection. With care, they can be reinstalled with a c- clamp and a short length of PVC pipe with a notch cut in one side. The notch is so you can reinsert the keepers into the spring retainer. This is a much trickier job than the removal, by far. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 802 hrs Countdown to 1000 hrs--198 to go Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop Electroair direct-fire ignition system Rotec TBI-40 injection Status: flying (and learning) On Oct 24, 2009, at 3:31 PM, Kayberg@aol.com wrote: > > The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a > valve spring compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the > valves. Then you would know for sure what the substance is. > Doug > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:53:34 PM PST US Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Problem after ground run From: Richard Girard Mike, Should you need a valve spring compressor, I have one you're welcome to use. If you need to do any dimensional inspection of the head I have a pretty good array of tools and a small granite slab, too. Rick Girard just down the road in Udall On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote: > > You don't even need a valve spring compressor the *remove* the springs (for > installing, you do). Lay the head onto a wadded-up shop rag. Using a deep > socket that is as large around as the outside diameter of the spring > retainer, hold the socket down against the spring retainer with the "nut" > end of the socket against the retainer, and (with a hammer) whack the > "drive" end of the socket against the retainer. Best to hold the socket with > a rag wrapped around your hand. This will drive the retainer downward, and > the keepers will fall out of their usual position which is wedged against > the valve by the retainer. It takes more time to explain this procedure than > to actually do it. You cannot reinstall them this way, but it will allow you > to remove them and get to the heart of the matter....inspection. With care, > they can be reinstalled with a c-clamp and a short length of PVC pipe with a > notch cut in one side. The notch is so you can reinsert the keepers into the > spring retainer. This is a much trickier job than the removal, by far. > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 802 hrs > Countdown to 1000 hrs--198 to go > Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop > Electroair direct-fire ignition system > Rotec TBI-40 injection > Status: flying (and learning) > > > On Oct 24, 2009, at 3:31 PM, Kayberg@aol.com wrote: > >> >> The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a valve >> spring compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the valves. Then you >> would know for sure what the substance is. >> Doug >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:56:57 PM PST US From: Robert Rivard Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Problem after ground run Gentlemen Since this sight is new to me I have a question. Who is Pete at Shelbyville and how would I get in touch if necessary? BOB --- On Sat, 10/24/09, Kayberg@aol.com wrote: From: Kayberg@aol.com Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Problem after ground run Sorry, all,- I thought Don was the guy with the problem...but Hilderbrand is in Kansas with the sticking valve. - Please take that into account. - doug koenigsberg - - In a message dated 10/24/2009 3:36:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Kayberg@a ol.com writes: In a message dated 10/24/2009 11:36:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, burdon1@ COMCAST.NET writes: Hi Doug, are you talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to stick ? What typically has been seen as the cause of sticking lifters when found o n 2200 and 3300's ? Anyone ? - - Thanks, Don Burkholder - - Use of autofuel with ethanol-prompted some problems.-- There was some kind of unknown crud that showed up as a yellow gunk which seemed to gum u p the valves and left deposits in the cylinders.-- It was bad enough th at the lifters stuck and the valves bent.- There was no carbon buildup. - When the engine is cold, at least at first, the lifters dont stick and the engine will run fine.- But when it is warm or hot, you can get the moment ary sticking like you can hear on the video.-- - I would suggest checking the fuel by removing and dumping the Bing bowl in a clear glass jar, running the fuel pump and letting the fuel in the lines run into another clear jar for a pint or so and then checking your filter ( I would replace it, they are cheap).-- If you have a gascolater, then d ump it as well.--- Let the jars set overnite and see what ends up in the bottom. - It is possible to run really rich and get lifter sticking as well....at lea st I would think so.- I dont know about that. - The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a valve spring compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the valves.-- Then you w ould know for sure what the substance is. - If you are in the early stages of using the engine,- I hope you are check ing the CHTs carefully.-- - You should take a good look at the fuel before calling Shelbyville. - Doug BLOCKQUOTE> - ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:03:03 PM PST US From: Michael Hilderbrand Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Problem after ground run After taking the valve covers off it-does not look-like a rocker &-pu shrod slip. The knocking-sound is REALLY prominent about 3" out-from th e crankcase on the cylinder (using the-old screwdriver to the ear trick). -My father has a hard time believing a sticking valve would-be heard so -close to the crankcase.- I am-NOT real mechanical so I refer often t o my father's suggestion and ideas. He thinks-the sound is probably from a messed up piston ring - at least, that is-his latest thoughts. =0A=0AAn other question I have:--IF this requires-replacing the piston and hon ing the cylinder, where would you guys take it?--Is this engine easy en ough to disassemble that a seasoned veteran mechanic should be able to perf orm such a task? Maybe-an AP?- And, can-this task be performed withou t taking the engine off the mount?-- The local-airport owner was tell ing me that AP's take jugs off certificated engines independently all the t ime....-- Any suggestions?-- =0A=0AThanks!=0A-Michael Hilderbrand =0ADerby, Kansas=0AHttp://www.kansasflying.com =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________ ___________________=0AFrom: "Kayberg@aol.com" =0ATo: jabir uengine-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 2:46:02 PM=0A Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Problem after ground run=0A=0ASorry, al l,- I thought Don was the guy with the problem...but Hilderbrand is in Ka nsas with the sticking valve.=0A=0APlease take that into account.=0A=0Adoug koenigsberg=0A=0A=0AIn a message dated 10/24/2009 3:36:11 P.M. Eastern Day light Time, Kayberg@aol.com writes:=0AIn a message dated 10/24/2009 11:36:4 8 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, burdon1@COMCAST.NET writes:=0A>=0A>>Hi Doug, are you talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to stick ? What typ ically has been seen as the cause of sticking lifters when found on 2200 an d 3300's ? Anyone ?=0A>>- - Thanks, Don Burkholder=0A>>=0A>>=0A>=0A>=0A >Use of autofuel with ethanol-prompted some problems.-- There was som e kind of unknown crud that showed up as a yellow gunk which seemed to gum up the valves and left deposits in the cylinders.-- It was bad enough t hat the lifters stuck and the valves bent.- There was no carbon buildup. =0A>=0A>When the engine is cold, at least at first, the lifters dont stick and the engine will run fine.- But when it is warm or hot, you can get th e momentary sticking like you can hear on the video.-- =0A>=0A>I would suggest checking the fuel by removing and dumping the Bing bowl in a clear glass jar, running the fuel pump and letting the fuel in the lines run into another clear jar for a pint or so and then checking your filter (I would replace it, they are cheap).-- If you have a gascolater, then dump it a s well.--- Let the jars set overnite and see what ends up in the bott om.=0A>=0A>It is possible to run really rich and get lifter sticking as wel l....at least I would think so.- I dont know about that.=0A>=0A>The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a valve spring compress or of some sort, it is easy to remove the valves.-- Then you would know for sure what the substance is.=0A>=0A>If you are in the early stages of u sing the engine,- I hope you are checking the CHTs carefully.-- =0A> =0A>You should take a good look at the fuel before calling Shelbyville.=0A> =0A>Doug=0A> =================== =========== =0A ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:05 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Problem after ground run I'd keep it right at home and bring a "seasoned mechanic" over for supper and a pretty simple job....unless it's under warranty, and that would complicate things. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 802 hrs Countdown to 1000 hrs--198 to go Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop Electroair direct-fire ignition system Rotec TBI-40 injection Status: flying (and learning) On Oct 24, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Michael Hilderbrand wrote: > After taking the valve covers off it does not look like a rocker & > pushrod slip. The knocking sound is REALLY prominent about 3" out > from the crankcase on the cylinder (using the old screwdriver to > the ear trick). My father has a hard time believing a sticking > valve would be heard so close to the crankcase. I am NOT real > mechanical so I refer often to my father's suggestion and ideas. He > thinks the sound is probably from a messed up piston ring - at > least, that is his latest thoughts. > > Another question I have: IF this requires replacing the piston and > honing the cylinder, where would you guys take it? Is this engine > easy enough to disassemble that a seasoned veteran mechanic should > be able to perform such a task? Maybe an AP? And, can this task be > performed without taking the engine off the mount? The local > airport owner was telling me that AP's take jugs off certificated > engines independently all the time.... Any suggestions? > > Thanks! > > Michael Hilderbrand > Derby, Kansas > Http://www.kansasflying.com > > > From: "Kayberg@aol.com" > To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 2:46:02 PM > Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Problem after ground run > > Sorry, all, I thought Don was the guy with the problem...but > Hilderbrand is in Kansas with the sticking valve. > > Please take that into account. > > doug koenigsberg > > > In a message dated 10/24/2009 3:36:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > Kayberg@aol.com writes: > In a message dated 10/24/2009 11:36:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > burdon1@COMCAST.NET writes: > > Hi Doug, are you talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to > stick ? What typically has been seen as the cause of sticking > lifters when found on 2200 and 3300's ? Anyone ? > Thanks, Don Burkholder > > > Use of autofuel with ethanol prompted some problems. There was > some kind of unknown crud that showed up as a yellow gunk which > seemed to gum up the valves and left deposits in the cylinders. > It was bad enough that the lifters stuck and the valves bent. > There was no carbon buildup. > > When the engine is cold, at least at first, the lifters dont stick > and the engine will run fine. But when it is warm or hot, you can > get the momentary sticking like you can hear on the video. > > I would suggest checking the fuel by removing and dumping the Bing > bowl in a clear glass jar, running the fuel pump and letting the > fuel in the lines run into another clear jar for a pint or so and > then checking your filter (I would replace it, they are cheap). > If you have a gascolater, then dump it as well. Let the jars set > overnite and see what ends up in the bottom. > > It is possible to run really rich and get lifter sticking as > well....at least I would think so. I dont know about that. > > The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a > valve spring compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the > valves. Then you would know for sure what the substance is. > > If you are in the early stages of using the engine, I hope you are > checking the CHTs carefully. > > You should take a good look at the fuel before calling Shelbyville. > > Doug > =========== BLOCKQUOTE> > > ============================================================ _- > ============================================================ _- > contribution_- > =========================================================== > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:53 PM PST US Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Problem after ground run From: Richard Girard Mike, Well the 3 inch dimension corresponds to the engines 74 mm stroke, but wouldn't a ring problem that makes a sound at the bottom of the stoke also make one at the top when the piston reverses direction again? When you say "not look like a rocker & pushrod slip" does that mean you've tested for rocker arm pushrod clearance all the way through the full cycle of the engine? Have you drained the oil and run a magnet through it looking for iron bits? Taken the oil filter off and pulled it apart to look for debris caught in the filter element? What kind of noise are you getting when you rock the crank shaft back and forth at the "clunk" point? Do you know anyone who has a bore scope to look at the cylinder walls for evidence of damage and the top of the piston to see if there are marks from the valve hitting the piston? Was #6 the only head that exceeded CHT limits? I've got a regular medical stethoscope if you want to have a bit better listen to the sounds the engine is making. Rick Girard On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Michael Hilderbrand < m_hilderbrand@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > After taking the valve covers off it does not look like a rocker & pushrod > slip. The knocking sound is REALLY prominent about 3" out from the crankcase > on the cylinder (using the old screwdriver to the ear trick). My father has > a hard time believing a sticking valve would be heard so close to the > crankcase. I am NOT real mechanical so I refer often to my father's > suggestion and ideas. He thinks the sound is probably from a messed up > piston ring - at least, that is his latest thoughts. > > Another question I have: IF this requires replacing the piston and honing > the cylinder, where would you guys take it? Is this engine easy enough to > disassemble that a seasoned veteran mechanic should be able to perform such > a task? Maybe an AP? And, can this task be performed without taking the > engine off the mount? The local airport owner was telling me that AP's > take jugs off certificated engines independently all the time.... Any > suggestions? > > Thanks! > > Michael Hilderbrand > Derby, Kansas > Http://www.kansasflying.com > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "Kayberg@aol.com" > *To:* jabiruengine-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Saturday, October 24, 2009 2:46:02 PM > *Subject:* Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Problem after ground run > > Sorry, all, I thought Don was the guy with the problem...but Hilderbrand > is in Kansas with the sticking valve. > > Please take that into account. > > doug koenigsberg > > > In a message dated 10/24/2009 3:36:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > Kayberg@aol.com writes: > > In a message dated 10/24/2009 11:36:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > burdon1@COMCAST.NET writes: > > > Hi Doug, are you talking about carbon buildup causing the lifter to stick ? > What typically has been seen as the cause of sticking lifters when found on > 2200 and 3300's ? Anyone ? > Thanks, Don Burkholder > > > Use of autofuel with ethanol prompted some problems. There was some kind > of unknown crud that showed up as a yellow gunk which seemed to gum up the > valves and left deposits in the cylinders. It was bad enough that the > lifters stuck and the valves bent. There was no carbon buildup. > > When the engine is cold, at least at first, the lifters dont stick and the > engine will run fine. But when it is warm or hot, you can get the momentary > sticking like you can hear on the video. > > I would suggest checking the fuel by removing and dumping the Bing bowl in > a clear glass jar, running the fuel pump and letting the fuel in the lines > run into another clear jar for a pint or so and then checking your filter (I > would replace it, they are cheap). If you have a gascolater, then dump it > as well. Let the jars set overnite and see what ends up in the bottom. > > It is possible to run really rich and get lifter sticking as well....at > least I would think so. I dont know about that. > > The heads do come off quite easily and if you have access to a valve spring > compressor of some sort, it is easy to remove the valves. Then you would > know for sure what the substance is. > > If you are in the early stages of using the engine, I hope you are > checking the CHTs carefully. > > You should take a good look at the fuel before calling Shelbyville. > > Doug > > * =========== BLOCKQUOTE>* > > > * > > * > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message jabiruengine-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/JabiruEngine-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/jabiruengine-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/jabiruengine-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.