Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:48 AM - Starting Problem (laflyins)
2. 05:37 AM - Re: Starting Problem (Richard Girard)
3. 10:40 AM - Re: Starting Problem (Dave)
4. 12:04 PM - Re: Starting Problem (laflyins)
5. 01:44 PM - Re: Re: Starting Problem (Dave)
6. 02:03 PM - Re: Starting Problem (Peter Harris)
7. 09:49 PM - Re: Re: Starting Problem (Naftali Horowitz)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Starting Problem |
I was in our Lightning the other day and when I hit the starter switch I could
hear the solenoid click in but the prop did not make any attempt to move. I had
just come down from a flight. So we took the cowl off and during the process
of taking voltage readings, etc. the prop did spin on one of the starting attempts...
although a bit weakly. We had a recent occurrence where the plane
was down a couple of months for some repairs and the battery went dead (Odyssey
PC625) so we pulled the battery and took it down to get it checked. The battery
vendor said it was good but weak and recommended a process to "desulfinate"
and charge it which we did. Seemed to work fine. Put battery back and prop
spun with authority.
Went back out the next day and pulled plane out to fly... same thing... prop would
not budge but solenoid clicks in hard. Checked voltages and starter has full
battery voltage (12.4 Volts) with starter switch engaged but nothing was happening.
I pulled the starter and turned gear a bit to see if there might be
a dead spot in the starter. Put it back in without the drive and the starter
motor spun fine.... so I assume that it is a bad starter motor with some kind
of intermittent fault.
Any other ideas? One thing I did find is that the previous owner had not done
the Service Bulletin on connecting the ground cable directly to the starter.
Could that be a factor? Seems like if it is a poor ground caused by where the
ground cable is connected or a weak battery then it might spin slow or at least
make the prop jerk but this anomaly happens it doesn't try to spin at all -
the prop just does not make any attempt to move.
If it really is a bad starter motor, does anyone have a cross reference part number
for it?
Regards,
Jim
(The engine is a Jabiru 3300 with hydraulic lifters bought in roughly 2006 but
I don't have the serial number available right here. The starter motor is silver
and not the black one with gold ends like I read in some of the posts.)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279857#279857
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Starting Problem |
Forgive me for being blunt, but you've been told the battery is weak, and
there's a service bulletin to correct a ground path problem for the starter.
What do you need, a flag waved in front of you?
Do the cheapest thing first and comply with the SB. That'll cost less than
$10. A new battery costs less than $40 (I paid $38 for a Chicom 20 amp hour
with the same form factor as the PC625 for my trike). If you keep screwing
around you'll most likely damage the starter and then you will have to
replace it.
Obviously, I need more coffee.
Rick Girard
On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 5:47 AM, laflyins <rivierja@cox.net> wrote:
>
> I was in our Lightning the other day and when I hit the starter switch I
> could hear the solenoid click in but the prop did not make any attempt to
> move. I had just come down from a flight. So we took the cowl off and
> during the process of taking voltage readings, etc. the prop did spin on one
> of the starting attempts... although a bit weakly. We had a recent
> occurrence where the plane was down a couple of months for some repairs and
> the battery went dead (Odyssey PC625) so we pulled the battery and took it
> down to get it checked. The battery vendor said it was good but weak and
> recommended a process to "desulfinate" and charge it which we did. Seemed
> to work fine. Put battery back and prop spun with authority.
> Went back out the next day and pulled plane out to fly... same thing...
> prop would not budge but solenoid clicks in hard. Checked voltages and
> starter has full battery voltage (12.4 Volts) with starter switch engaged
> but nothing was happening. I pulled the starter and turned gear a bit to
> see if there might be a dead spot in the starter. Put it back in without
> the drive and the starter motor spun fine.... so I assume that it is a bad
> starter motor with some kind of intermittent fault.
> Any other ideas? One thing I did find is that the previous owner had not
> done the Service Bulletin on connecting the ground cable directly to the
> starter. Could that be a factor? Seems like if it is a poor ground caused
> by where the ground cable is connected or a weak battery then it might spin
> slow or at least make the prop jerk but this anomaly happens it doesn't try
> to spin at all - the prop just does not make any attempt to move.
> If it really is a bad starter motor, does anyone have a cross reference
> part number for it?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jim
> (The engine is a Jabiru 3300 with hydraulic lifters bought in roughly 2006
> but I don't have the serial number available right here. The starter motor
> is silver and not the black one with gold ends like I read in some of the
> posts.)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279857#279857
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Starting Problem |
I would certainly replace a weak battery and add the required ground, but
you may be right in that the prop should at least attempt to turn. You can
try measuring the voltages. Put a voltmeter on from the positive of the
battery to the negative and see what drop you get when you attempt to start.
Look for voltage drops along the starting circuit all the way along solenoid
in, out, starter pos, starter case, to the engine case and then the frame
ground itself. the problem should become evident.
----- Original Message -----
From: "laflyins" <rivierja@cox.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 7:47 AM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Starting Problem
>
Seems like if it is a poor ground caused by where the ground cable is
connected or a weak battery then it might spin slow or at least make the
prop jerk but this anomaly happens it doesn't try to spin at all - the prop
just does not make any attempt to move.
> If it really is a bad starter motor, does anyone have a cross reference
> part number for it?
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Starting Problem |
I will definitely move the ground to the starter. Makes a lot of sense and was
planning to do that as soon as I saw the SB.
I had checked some voltages and there was no significant drop anywhere through
the system... there was 0 drop across the solenoid when it was engaged and there
was 12.4 volts between the positive wire at the starter and the starter housing....
which was essentially the same as the battery voltage.
As for the weak battery, what I neglected to say in the first message was that
when the battery vendor tested it he said it was weak but had significant life
left in it and it should charge up just fine... which we think it did from what
we saw when charging it. We gave his opinion some credibility because when
the guy whose job it is to sell you a new battery tells you that you don't need
one then I guess we tended to believe him. Maybe he is wrong. We'll see.
Jim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279913#279913
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Starting Problem |
Hi, if you are measuring 12.4 across the starter and there's no action, it
looks like you may have had the right idea in the first place and there may
be an issue with the starter itself. Starters are pretty generic things and
your local starter shop may be able to help if that's what it turns out to
be. Try the extra ground first though, you'll have to buy that anyway.
----- Original Message -----
From: "laflyins" <rivierja@cox.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 4:03 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Starting Problem
>> I had checked some voltages and there was no significant drop anywhere
>> through the system... there was 0 drop across the solenoid when it was
>> engaged and there was 12.4 volts between the positive wire at the starter
>> and the starter housing.... which was essentially the same as the battery
>> voltage.
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Starting Problem |
Jim,
I introduced the idea of a starter earth strap 3 years ago when I found that
the two long clamping bolts for the starter casing were getting very hot.
Earth must carry full starting current and should be best low resistance. As
supplied earth was by means only of the two clamping bolts which were set in
Loctite, a poor conductor. There was no current path through the casing
because the sections are insulated with rubber seals.
I think you may find that is the cause of your intermittent problem.
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of laflyins
Sent: Sunday, 3 January 2010 9:47 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Starting Problem
I was in our Lightning the other day and when I hit the starter switch I
could hear the solenoid click in but the prop did not make any attempt to
move. I had just come down from a flight. So we took the cowl off and
during the process of taking voltage readings, etc. the prop did spin on one
of the starting attempts... although a bit weakly. We had a recent
occurrence where the plane was down a couple of months for some repairs and
the battery went dead (Odyssey PC625) so we pulled the battery and took it
down to get it checked. The battery vendor said it was good but weak and
recommended a process to "desulfinate" and charge it which we did. Seemed
to work fine. Put battery back and prop spun with authority.
Went back out the next day and pulled plane out to fly... same thing... prop
would not budge but solenoid clicks in hard. Checked voltages and starter
has full battery voltage (12.4 Volts) with starter switch engaged but
nothing was happening. I pulled the starter and turned gear a bit to see if
there might be a dead spot in the starter. Put it back in without the drive
and the starter motor spun fine.... so I assume that it is a bad starter
motor with some kind of intermittent fault.
Any other ideas? One thing I did find is that the previous owner had not
done the Service Bulletin on connecting the ground cable directly to the
starter. Could that be a factor? Seems like if it is a poor ground caused
by where the ground cable is connected or a weak battery then it might spin
slow or at least make the prop jerk but this anomaly happens it doesn't try
to spin at all - the prop just does not make any attempt to move.
If it really is a bad starter motor, does anyone have a cross reference part
number for it?
Regards,
Jim
(The engine is a Jabiru 3300 with hydraulic lifters bought in roughly 2006
but I don't have the serial number available right here. The starter motor
is silver and not the black one with gold ends like I read in some of the
posts.)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279857#279857
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
08:22:00
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Starting Problem |
There must be a significant voltage drop when engaging the starter=2C since
it draws appr. 200 amps. If no drop at all=2C then the starter brushes are
not conducting at all=2C or nothing is connected to the starter.
Naftali.
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Starting Problem
> From: rivierja@cox.net
> Date: Sun=2C 3 Jan 2010 12:03:46 -0800
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
>
>
> I will definitely move the ground to the starter. Makes a lot of sense an
d was planning to do that as soon as I saw the SB.
>
> I had checked some voltages and there was no significant drop anywhere th
rough the system... there was 0 drop across the solenoid when it was engage
d and there was 12.4 volts between the positive wire at the starter and the
starter housing.... which was essentially the same as the battery voltage.
>
> As for the weak battery=2C what I neglected to say in the first message w
as that when the battery vendor tested it he said it was weak but had signi
ficant life left in it and it should charge up just fine... which we think
it did from what we saw when charging it. We gave his opinion some credibil
ity because when the guy whose job it is to sell you a new battery tells yo
u that you don't need one then I guess we tended to believe him. Maybe he i
s wrong. We'll see.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279913#279913
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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