---------------------------------------------------------- JabiruEngine-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 01/03/10: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:48 AM - Starting Problem (laflyins) 2. 05:37 AM - Re: Starting Problem (Richard Girard) 3. 10:40 AM - Re: Starting Problem (Dave) 4. 12:04 PM - Re: Starting Problem (laflyins) 5. 01:44 PM - Re: Re: Starting Problem (Dave) 6. 02:03 PM - Re: Starting Problem (Peter Harris) 7. 09:49 PM - Re: Re: Starting Problem (Naftali Horowitz) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:48:11 AM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Starting Problem From: "laflyins" I was in our Lightning the other day and when I hit the starter switch I could hear the solenoid click in but the prop did not make any attempt to move. I had just come down from a flight. So we took the cowl off and during the process of taking voltage readings, etc. the prop did spin on one of the starting attempts... although a bit weakly. We had a recent occurrence where the plane was down a couple of months for some repairs and the battery went dead (Odyssey PC625) so we pulled the battery and took it down to get it checked. The battery vendor said it was good but weak and recommended a process to "desulfinate" and charge it which we did. Seemed to work fine. Put battery back and prop spun with authority. Went back out the next day and pulled plane out to fly... same thing... prop would not budge but solenoid clicks in hard. Checked voltages and starter has full battery voltage (12.4 Volts) with starter switch engaged but nothing was happening. I pulled the starter and turned gear a bit to see if there might be a dead spot in the starter. Put it back in without the drive and the starter motor spun fine.... so I assume that it is a bad starter motor with some kind of intermittent fault. Any other ideas? One thing I did find is that the previous owner had not done the Service Bulletin on connecting the ground cable directly to the starter. Could that be a factor? Seems like if it is a poor ground caused by where the ground cable is connected or a weak battery then it might spin slow or at least make the prop jerk but this anomaly happens it doesn't try to spin at all - the prop just does not make any attempt to move. If it really is a bad starter motor, does anyone have a cross reference part number for it? Regards, Jim (The engine is a Jabiru 3300 with hydraulic lifters bought in roughly 2006 but I don't have the serial number available right here. The starter motor is silver and not the black one with gold ends like I read in some of the posts.) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279857#279857 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:59 AM PST US Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Starting Problem From: Richard Girard Forgive me for being blunt, but you've been told the battery is weak, and there's a service bulletin to correct a ground path problem for the starter. What do you need, a flag waved in front of you? Do the cheapest thing first and comply with the SB. That'll cost less than $10. A new battery costs less than $40 (I paid $38 for a Chicom 20 amp hour with the same form factor as the PC625 for my trike). If you keep screwing around you'll most likely damage the starter and then you will have to replace it. Obviously, I need more coffee. Rick Girard On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 5:47 AM, laflyins wrote: > > I was in our Lightning the other day and when I hit the starter switch I > could hear the solenoid click in but the prop did not make any attempt to > move. I had just come down from a flight. So we took the cowl off and > during the process of taking voltage readings, etc. the prop did spin on one > of the starting attempts... although a bit weakly. We had a recent > occurrence where the plane was down a couple of months for some repairs and > the battery went dead (Odyssey PC625) so we pulled the battery and took it > down to get it checked. The battery vendor said it was good but weak and > recommended a process to "desulfinate" and charge it which we did. Seemed > to work fine. Put battery back and prop spun with authority. > Went back out the next day and pulled plane out to fly... same thing... > prop would not budge but solenoid clicks in hard. Checked voltages and > starter has full battery voltage (12.4 Volts) with starter switch engaged > but nothing was happening. I pulled the starter and turned gear a bit to > see if there might be a dead spot in the starter. Put it back in without > the drive and the starter motor spun fine.... so I assume that it is a bad > starter motor with some kind of intermittent fault. > Any other ideas? One thing I did find is that the previous owner had not > done the Service Bulletin on connecting the ground cable directly to the > starter. Could that be a factor? Seems like if it is a poor ground caused > by where the ground cable is connected or a weak battery then it might spin > slow or at least make the prop jerk but this anomaly happens it doesn't try > to spin at all - the prop just does not make any attempt to move. > If it really is a bad starter motor, does anyone have a cross reference > part number for it? > > Regards, > > Jim > (The engine is a Jabiru 3300 with hydraulic lifters bought in roughly 2006 > but I don't have the serial number available right here. The starter motor > is silver and not the black one with gold ends like I read in some of the > posts.) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279857#279857 > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:40:31 AM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Starting Problem I would certainly replace a weak battery and add the required ground, but you may be right in that the prop should at least attempt to turn. You can try measuring the voltages. Put a voltmeter on from the positive of the battery to the negative and see what drop you get when you attempt to start. Look for voltage drops along the starting circuit all the way along solenoid in, out, starter pos, starter case, to the engine case and then the frame ground itself. the problem should become evident. ----- Original Message ----- From: "laflyins" Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 7:47 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Starting Problem > Seems like if it is a poor ground caused by where the ground cable is connected or a weak battery then it might spin slow or at least make the prop jerk but this anomaly happens it doesn't try to spin at all - the prop just does not make any attempt to move. > If it really is a bad starter motor, does anyone have a cross reference > part number for it? > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:42 PM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Starting Problem From: "laflyins" I will definitely move the ground to the starter. Makes a lot of sense and was planning to do that as soon as I saw the SB. I had checked some voltages and there was no significant drop anywhere through the system... there was 0 drop across the solenoid when it was engaged and there was 12.4 volts between the positive wire at the starter and the starter housing.... which was essentially the same as the battery voltage. As for the weak battery, what I neglected to say in the first message was that when the battery vendor tested it he said it was weak but had significant life left in it and it should charge up just fine... which we think it did from what we saw when charging it. We gave his opinion some credibility because when the guy whose job it is to sell you a new battery tells you that you don't need one then I guess we tended to believe him. Maybe he is wrong. We'll see. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279913#279913 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:17 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Starting Problem Hi, if you are measuring 12.4 across the starter and there's no action, it looks like you may have had the right idea in the first place and there may be an issue with the starter itself. Starters are pretty generic things and your local starter shop may be able to help if that's what it turns out to be. Try the extra ground first though, you'll have to buy that anyway. ----- Original Message ----- From: "laflyins" Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 4:03 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Starting Problem >> I had checked some voltages and there was no significant drop anywhere >> through the system... there was 0 drop across the solenoid when it was >> engaged and there was 12.4 volts between the positive wire at the starter >> and the starter housing.... which was essentially the same as the battery >> voltage. > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:03:25 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Starting Problem Jim, I introduced the idea of a starter earth strap 3 years ago when I found that the two long clamping bolts for the starter casing were getting very hot. Earth must carry full starting current and should be best low resistance. As supplied earth was by means only of the two clamping bolts which were set in Loctite, a poor conductor. There was no current path through the casing because the sections are insulated with rubber seals. I think you may find that is the cause of your intermittent problem. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of laflyins Sent: Sunday, 3 January 2010 9:47 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Starting Problem I was in our Lightning the other day and when I hit the starter switch I could hear the solenoid click in but the prop did not make any attempt to move. I had just come down from a flight. So we took the cowl off and during the process of taking voltage readings, etc. the prop did spin on one of the starting attempts... although a bit weakly. We had a recent occurrence where the plane was down a couple of months for some repairs and the battery went dead (Odyssey PC625) so we pulled the battery and took it down to get it checked. The battery vendor said it was good but weak and recommended a process to "desulfinate" and charge it which we did. Seemed to work fine. Put battery back and prop spun with authority. Went back out the next day and pulled plane out to fly... same thing... prop would not budge but solenoid clicks in hard. Checked voltages and starter has full battery voltage (12.4 Volts) with starter switch engaged but nothing was happening. I pulled the starter and turned gear a bit to see if there might be a dead spot in the starter. Put it back in without the drive and the starter motor spun fine.... so I assume that it is a bad starter motor with some kind of intermittent fault. Any other ideas? One thing I did find is that the previous owner had not done the Service Bulletin on connecting the ground cable directly to the starter. Could that be a factor? Seems like if it is a poor ground caused by where the ground cable is connected or a weak battery then it might spin slow or at least make the prop jerk but this anomaly happens it doesn't try to spin at all - the prop just does not make any attempt to move. If it really is a bad starter motor, does anyone have a cross reference part number for it? Regards, Jim (The engine is a Jabiru 3300 with hydraulic lifters bought in roughly 2006 but I don't have the serial number available right here. The starter motor is silver and not the black one with gold ends like I read in some of the posts.) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279857#279857 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 08:22:00 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:49:40 PM PST US From: Naftali Horowitz Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Starting Problem There must be a significant voltage drop when engaging the starter=2C since it draws appr. 200 amps. If no drop at all=2C then the starter brushes are not conducting at all=2C or nothing is connected to the starter. Naftali. > Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Starting Problem > From: rivierja@cox.net > Date: Sun=2C 3 Jan 2010 12:03:46 -0800 > To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com > > > I will definitely move the ground to the starter. Makes a lot of sense an d was planning to do that as soon as I saw the SB. > > I had checked some voltages and there was no significant drop anywhere th rough the system... there was 0 drop across the solenoid when it was engage d and there was 12.4 volts between the positive wire at the starter and the starter housing.... which was essentially the same as the battery voltage. > > As for the weak battery=2C what I neglected to say in the first message w as that when the battery vendor tested it he said it was weak but had signi ficant life left in it and it should charge up just fine... which we think it did from what we saw when charging it. We gave his opinion some credibil ity because when the guy whose job it is to sell you a new battery tells yo u that you don't need one then I guess we tended to believe him. Maybe he i s wrong. We'll see. > > Jim > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279913#279913 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft=92s powerful SPAM protection. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message jabiruengine-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/JabiruEngine-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/jabiruengine-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/jabiruengine-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.