Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:30 AM - Re: Re: Starting Problem (Lynn Matteson)
2. 05:17 AM - Re: Re: Starting Problem (Richard Girard)
3. 07:34 AM - Re: Re: Starting Problem (BobsV35B@aol.com)
4. 08:01 AM - Re: Re: Starting Problem (Rob)
5. 08:15 AM - Re: Re: Starting Problem (Ivan)
6. 11:35 AM - Re: Re: Starting Problem (Richard Girard)
7. 02:57 PM - Re: Re: Starting Problem (JOSEPH MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS)
8. 07:03 PM - Re: Re: Starting Problem (James, Clive R)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Starting Problem |
When I first read your post, I was thinking that at 12.4, that was
NOT a fully charged battery...12.7 is, from what I've read. I used to
think 12 volts was 12 volts...now I *think* I know better.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 831.6 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs~169 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
do not archive
On Jan 3, 2010, at 3:03 PM, laflyins wrote:
>
> I will definitely move the ground to the starter. Makes a lot of
> sense and was planning to do that as soon as I saw the SB.
>
> I had checked some voltages and there was no significant drop
> anywhere through the system... there was 0 drop across the solenoid
> when it was engaged and there was 12.4 volts between the positive
> wire at the starter and the starter housing.... which was
> essentially the same as the battery voltage.
>
> As for the weak battery, what I neglected to say in the first
> message was that when the battery vendor tested it he said it was
> weak but had significant life left in it and it should charge up
> just fine... which we think it did from what we saw when charging
> it. We gave his opinion some credibility because when the guy
> whose job it is to sell you a new battery tells you that you don't
> need one then I guess we tended to believe him. Maybe he is wrong.
> We'll see.
>
> Jim
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279913#279913
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Starting Problem |
Jim, While your battery vendor is trying to give you good advice for a lawn
tractor or similar ground based device, is he aware of the abused life an
aircraft battery generally leads? Sitting for long periods of time then
asked to give it's rated cold cranking amps after which it gets a brief
charge and then it's back to sitting for long periods, an aircraft battery
should be on a regular replacement interval, IMHO. In my case I run them fo
r
3 years maximum or the first sign of hesitancy to start the engine whicheve
r
comes first and then they get retired to some other activity. Amortized out
over that 3 year period, my $38 AGM battery adds about $1 a month to my
flying costs. Cheap insurance to know that if I need it for an in flight
restart it'll be there for me.
Just a thought.
Rick Girard
On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Naftali Horowitz <naftalih@hotmail.com>wro
te:
> There must be a significant voltage drop when engaging the starter, sinc
e
> it draws appr. 200 amps. If no drop at all, then the starter brushes are
not
> conducting at all, or nothing is connected to the starter.
> Naftali.
>
> > Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Starting Problem
> > From: rivierja@cox.net
> > Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 12:03:46 -0800
> > To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> >
> >
> > I will definitely move the ground to the starter. Makes a lot of sense
> and was planning to do that as soon as I saw the SB.
> >
> > I had checked some voltages and there was no significant drop anywhere
> through the system... there was 0 drop across the solenoid when it was
> engaged and there was 12.4 volts between the positive wire at the starter
> and the starter housing.... which was essentially the same as the battery
> voltage.
> >
> > As for the weak battery, what I neglected to say in the first message w
as
> that when the battery vendor tested it he said it was weak but had
> significant life left in it and it should charge up just fine... which we
> think it did from what we saw when charging it. We gave his opinion some
> credibility because when the guy whose job it is to sell you a new batter
y
> tells you that you don't need one then I guess we tended to believe him.
> Maybe he is wrong. We'll see.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279913#279913
> >
> >
> >
> >=
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
> Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft=92s powerful SPAM protection. Sign
up
>
> *
>
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>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Starting Problem |
Good Morning Rick,
For the first fifty or so years of my flying career, I thought the same as
you. Swap out the battery every couple of years or when it doesn't crank
the engine as robustly as it had in the past.
However, about ten years ago the FAA started to encourage load testing of
aircraft batteries. Along about the same time. they started to insist that
manufacturers supply Instructions For Continued Airworthiness documents fo
r
most everything we put in our airplanes. 'Lectric Bob (That is the way Bo
b
Nuckolls was signing his messages when I first discovered his written
wisdom) was telling us that we should be load testing our batteries. He
also
mentioned that it only takes about ten percent of a battery's normal stre
ngth
to make a normal engine start so if we wait to replace a battery until
cranking becomes an issue, we have waited far too long. It is especially
bad
if our airplane needs the battery to keep us in the air following a failu
re
of the electrical generating device.
Consequently, I broke down and spent way more than I wanted to and
purchased a high tech load testing device. It has been an eye opener. Some
of my
high priced certified batteries have failed the test after not much more
than
a year while others have soldiered on for many years.
My super duper load tester from Concorde has proven to be a wise purchase
for me, but much cheaper load testing can be done if you don't have to che
ck
as many batteries as I do.
'Lectric Bob also has recommended that, in addition to load testing,
regular replacement on a schedule such as you advise is cheap insurance fo
r
those who have an electrically dependent engine. If you use a two battery
system, change one every year, but do the load testing as well!
As to adding a direct starter ground. I had weak cranking on my Stearman
for the first fifteen years I owned it. A couple of years ago I finally
heeded 'Lectric Bob's advice and ran a fat wire from the battery ground
direct
to the starter, It has made the a prop spin so fast I think I could taxi
on
the thrust. I had always checked the aircraft's grounding straps and
generally found them to be in good shape, but running that fat wire is so
mething
I should have done fifteen years ago.
Happy Skies
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, IL
LL22
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 1/4/2010 7:17:51 A.M. Central Standard Time,
aslsa.rng@gmail.com writes:
Jim, While your battery vendor is trying to give you good advice for a
lawn tractor or similar ground based device, is he aware of the abused li
fe an
aircraft battery generally leads? Sitting for long periods of time then
asked to give it's rated cold cranking amps after which it gets a brief
charge and then it's back to sitting for long periods, an aircraft batter
y
should be on a regular replacement interval, IMHO. In my case I run them
for 3
years maximum or the first sign of hesitancy to start the engine whicheve
r
comes first and then they get retired to some other activity. Amortized
out
over that 3 year period, my $38 AGM battery adds about $1 a month to my
flying costs. Cheap insurance to know that if I need it for an in flight
restart it'll be there for me.
Just a thought.
Rick Girard
On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Naftali Horowitz <_naftalih@hotmail.com_
(mailto:naftalih@hotmail.com) > wrote:
There must be a significant voltage drop when engaging the starter, since
it draws appr. 200 amps. If no drop at all, then the starter brushes are
not conducting at all, or nothing is connected to the starter.
Naftali.
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Starting Problem
> From: _rivierja@cox.net_ (mailto:rivierja@cox.net)
> Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 12:03:46 -0800
> To: _jabiruengine-list@matronics.com_
(mailto:jabiruengine-list@matronics.com)
>
> --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "laflyins" <_rivierja@cox.net_
(mailto:rivierja@cox.net) >
>
> I will definitely move the ground to the starter. Makes a lot of sense
and was planning to do that as soon as I saw the SB.
>
> I had checked some voltages and there was no significant drop anywhere
through the system... there was 0 drop across the solenoid when it was
engaged and there was 12.4 volts between the positive wire at the starter
and
the starter housing.... which was essentially the same as the battery vol
tage.
>
> As for the weak battery, what I neglected to say in the first message
was that when the battery vendor tested it he said it was weak but had
significant life left in it and it should charge up just fine... which we
think
it did from what we saw when charging it. We gave his opinion some
credibility because when the guy whose job it is to sell you a new batter
y tells you
that you don't need one then I guess we tended to believe him. Maybe he
is
wrong. We'll see.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> _http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279913#279913_
(http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279913#279913)
>
>
>
>=
>
>
>
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Starting Problem |
Rick, where and what model number do you buy for $38.
Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Jim, While your battery vendor is trying to give you good advice for a lawn
>tractor or similar ground based device, is he aware of the abused life an
>aircraft battery generally leads? Sitting for long periods of time then
>asked to give it's rated cold cranking amps after which it gets a brief
>charge and then it's back to sitting for long periods, an aircraft battery
>should be on a regular replacement interval, IMHO. In my case I run them for
>3 years maximum or the first sign of hesitancy to start the engine whichever
>comes first and then they get retired to some other activity. Amortized out
>over that 3 year period, my $38 AGM battery adds about $1 a month to my
>flying costs. Cheap insurance to know that if I need it for an in flight
>restart it'll be there for me.
>Just a thought.
>
>Rick Girard
>
>On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Naftali Horowitz <naftalih@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
>> There must be a significant voltage drop when engaging the starter, since
>> it draws appr. 200 amps. If no drop at all, then the starter brushes are not
>> conducting at all, or nothing is connected to the starter.
>> Naftali.
>>
>> > Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Starting Problem
>> > From: rivierja@cox.net
>> > Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 12:03:46 -0800
>> > To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
>> >
>> >
>> > I will definitely move the ground to the starter. Makes a lot of sense
>> and was planning to do that as soon as I saw the SB.
>> >
>> > I had checked some voltages and there was no significant drop anywhere
>> through the system... there was 0 drop across the solenoid when it was
>> engaged and there was 12.4 volts between the positive wire at the starter
>> and the starter housing.... which was essentially the same as the battery
>> voltage.
>> >
>> > As for the weak battery, what I neglected to say in the first message was
>> that when the battery vendor tested it he said it was weak but had
>> significant life left in it and it should charge up just fine... which we
>> think it did from what we saw when charging it. We gave his opinion some
>> credibility because when the guy whose job it is to sell you a new battery
>> tells you that you don't need one then I guess we tended to believe him.
>> Maybe he is wrong. We'll see.
>> >
>> > Jim
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Read this topic online here:
>> >
>> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279913#279913
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >=
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsofts powerful SPAM protection. Sign up
>>
>> *
>>
>===========
>===========
>===========
>===========
>> *
>>
>>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Starting Problem |
Lynn
I agree. When my AGM battery is fully charged it reads 12.7-12.9v. As a
rule of thumb 12.4 is 40% charged, 12.2 is 20% charged. A new battery
seems to hit almost 13.v when fully charged. My Odyssey charger also
measured the % charge and substantiates this.
Ivan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:25 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Starting Problem
>
> When I first read your post, I was thinking that at 12.4, that was NOT a
> fully charged battery...12.7 is, from what I've read. I used to think 12
> volts was 12 volts...now I *think* I know better.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 831.6 hrs
> Countdown to 1000 hrs~169 to go
> Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection
> Status: flying (and learning)
> do not archive
>
>
> On Jan 3, 2010, at 3:03 PM, laflyins wrote:
>
>>
>> I will definitely move the ground to the starter. Makes a lot of sense
>> and was planning to do that as soon as I saw the SB.
>>
>> I had checked some voltages and there was no significant drop anywhere
>> through the system... there was 0 drop across the solenoid when it was
>> engaged and there was 12.4 volts between the positive wire at the
>> starter and the starter housing.... which was essentially the same as
>> the battery voltage.
>>
>> As for the weak battery, what I neglected to say in the first message
>> was that when the battery vendor tested it he said it was weak but had
>> significant life left in it and it should charge up just fine... which
>> we think it did from what we saw when charging it. We gave his opinion
>> some credibility because when the guy whose job it is to sell you a new
>> battery tells you that you don't need one then I guess we tended to
>> believe him. Maybe he is wrong. We'll see.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279913#279913
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Starting Problem |
It's a PowerSonic PSH 12180NB-FR. I got it at Allpak Battery in Wichita, KS
.
http://www.batteryplex.com/powersonic.cfm/m/PS-12180-NB
has them for $41.43.
Rick
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Rob <punchy@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> Rick, where and what model number do you buy for $38.
>
> Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >Jim, While your battery vendor is trying to give you good advice for a
> lawn
> >tractor or similar ground based device, is he aware of the abused life a
n
> >aircraft battery generally leads? Sitting for long periods of time then
> >asked to give it's rated cold cranking amps after which it gets a brief
> >charge and then it's back to sitting for long periods, an aircraft batte
ry
> >should be on a regular replacement interval, IMHO. In my case I run them
> for
> >3 years maximum or the first sign of hesitancy to start the engine
> whichever
> >comes first and then they get retired to some other activity. Amortized
> out
> >over that 3 year period, my $38 AGM battery adds about $1 a month to my
> >flying costs. Cheap insurance to know that if I need it for an in flight
> >restart it'll be there for me.
> >Just a thought.
> >
> >Rick Girard
> >
> >On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Naftali Horowitz <naftalih@hotmail.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >> There must be a significant voltage drop when engaging the starter,
> since
> >> it draws appr. 200 amps. If no drop at all, then the starter brushes a
re
> not
> >> conducting at all, or nothing is connected to the starter.
> >> Naftali.
> >>
> >> > Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Starting Problem
> >> > From: rivierja@cox.net
> >> > Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 12:03:46 -0800
> >> > To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> >> >
t
> >
> >> >
> >> > I will definitely move the ground to the starter. Makes a lot of sen
se
> >> and was planning to do that as soon as I saw the SB.
> >> >
> >> > I had checked some voltages and there was no significant drop anywhe
re
> >> through the system... there was 0 drop across the solenoid when it was
> >> engaged and there was 12.4 volts between the positive wire at the
> starter
> >> and the starter housing.... which was essentially the same as the
> battery
> >> voltage.
> >> >
> >> > As for the weak battery, what I neglected to say in the first messag
e
> was
> >> that when the battery vendor tested it he said it was weak but had
> >> significant life left in it and it should charge up just fine... which
> we
> >> think it did from what we saw when charging it. We gave his opinion so
me
> >> credibility because when the guy whose job it is to sell you a new
> battery
> >> tells you that you don't need one then I guess we tended to believe hi
m.
> >> Maybe he is wrong. We'll see.
> >> >
> >> > Jim
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Read this topic online here:
> >> >
> >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279913#279913
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >=
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >> Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft=92s powerful SPAM protection. Si
gn
> up
> >>
> >> *
> >>
> >===========
> >===========
> >===========
> >===========
> >> *
> >>
> >>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Starting Problem |
I use the same Odyssey battery and mine only lasts about 2 years.
Linda Mathias
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Girard
To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Starting Problem
Jim, While your battery vendor is trying to give you good advice for a
lawn tractor or similar ground based device, is he aware of the abused
life an aircraft battery generally leads? Sitting for long periods of
time then asked to give it's rated cold cranking amps after which it
gets a brief charge and then it's back to sitting for long periods, an
aircraft battery should be on a regular replacement interval, IMHO. In
my case I run them for 3 years maximum or the first sign of hesitancy to
start the engine whichever comes first and then they get retired to some
other activity. Amortized out over that 3 year period, my $38 AGM
battery adds about $1 a month to my flying costs. Cheap insurance to
know that if I need it for an in flight restart it'll be there for me.
Just a thought.
Rick Girard
On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Naftali Horowitz
<naftalih@hotmail.com> wrote:
There must be a significant voltage drop when engaging the starter,
since it draws appr. 200 amps. If no drop at all, then the starter
brushes are not conducting at all, or nothing is connected to the
starter.
Naftali.
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Starting Problem
> From: rivierja@cox.net
> Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 12:03:46 -0800
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
>
<rivierja@cox.net>
>
> I will definitely move the ground to the starter. Makes a lot of
sense and was planning to do that as soon as I saw the SB.
>
> I had checked some voltages and there was no significant drop
anywhere through the system... there was 0 drop across the solenoid when
it was engaged and there was 12.4 volts between the positive wire at the
starter and the starter housing.... which was essentially the same as
the battery voltage.
>
> As for the weak battery, what I neglected to say in the first
message was that when the battery vendor tested it he said it was weak
but had significant life left in it and it should charge up just fine...
which we think it did from what we saw when charging it. We gave his
opinion some credibility because when the guy whose job it is to sell
you a new battery tells you that you don't need one then I guess we
tended to believe him. Maybe he is wrong. We'll see.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279913#279913
>
>
>
>=
>
>
>
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Starting Problem |
I wouldn't get hung up about battery volts. 12 point this or that. To
find out how good a battery is you need to pull some load off it (or use
a tester).
A good battery that sits in the low twelve's can still carry out many
cranks. A crap battery in the high twelve's could decay quickly once
it's doing a bit of work.
As mentioned elsewhere a couple of hundred amps is what we are talking
about, that will drag a poor battery down quickly (voltage) no matter
what the voltage started at. And it's the pressure (volts) that pushes
the current through to do the work.
Well at least that's how it figures in my head and is also my
experience.
I got a golf cart battery for a few quid and it lasted fine for a year.
When it died on my 2200 (poor starting in the winter in UK) I used it
Ok for a couple of years on my 3300 which cranks far better that the
2200.
Eventually I had to put my hand in my pocket. I put the newest battery
on the 2200 and then moved the old one to the 3300 as it's more tolerant
and a far better starter.
Mind you I haven't ground out the choke lever (starting carburettor) on
the 2200 yet which I'm hoping will improve the starting in cold weather.
(Rogers pictures on Yahoo).
Regarding fat wires, the resistance of a chunky wire is low, but as we
are banging hundred of amps through it the voltage dropped across that
resistance can be an issue. The longer the wire the more the resistance
so the fatter it should be. Why batteries in the back maybe good for W+B
but poor for starting (unless you have a Kolb).
Get someone to crank your plane with the mags grounded and see what the
difference between the voltage on the battery +'ve and the voltage on
that bit of cable that sticks out of the starter where the poor rubber
cracks. You can see what the cable/solenoid+contacts is losing. Also
measure the voltage between the starter bolt head and the negative
terminal on the battery (while cranking) if the starter ground is good
there won't be any, if you are seeing something the reading is what you
are loosing in cranking volts for your starter. Or measure the voltage
across the hole in the starter cable and the bolt head. That's what is
getting to do the work on your electric motor (almost).
I've never measured what a new battery drops to when it's cranking but
it would be a good exercise as it should give you a good starting point.
Later as the battery starts to get old and fails to do the business note
it again. Somewhere in between is where you should bin the battery.
Regarding preheat, a battery will produce less voltage when it gets
colder. You may have seen your modern car battery has an insulated
jacket around it. If the battery is very cold it won't perform as well.
Worth insulating your battery if you live in extreme conditions I would
have thought Though after a few days will still reach ambient.
Regards Clive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ivan
Sent: 04 January 2010 16:14
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Starting Problem
Lynn
I agree. When my AGM battery is fully charged it reads 12.7-12.9v. As a
rule of thumb 12.4 is 40% charged, 12.2 is 20% charged. A new battery
seems to hit almost 13.v when fully charged. My Odyssey charger also
measured the % charge and substantiates this.
Ivan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:25 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Starting Problem
<lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> When I first read your post, I was thinking that at 12.4, that was
NOT a
> fully charged battery...12.7 is, from what I've read. I used to think
12
> volts was 12 volts...now I *think* I know better.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 831.6 hrs
> Countdown to 1000 hrs~169 to go
> Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection
> Status: flying (and learning)
> do not archive
>
>
> On Jan 3, 2010, at 3:03 PM, laflyins wrote:
>
<rivierja@cox.net>
>>
>> I will definitely move the ground to the starter. Makes a lot of
sense
>> and was planning to do that as soon as I saw the SB.
>>
>> I had checked some voltages and there was no significant drop
anywhere
>> through the system... there was 0 drop across the solenoid when it
was
>> engaged and there was 12.4 volts between the positive wire at the
>> starter and the starter housing.... which was essentially the same
as
>> the battery voltage.
>>
>> As for the weak battery, what I neglected to say in the first
message
>> was that when the battery vendor tested it he said it was weak but
had
>> significant life left in it and it should charge up just fine...
which
>> we think it did from what we saw when charging it. We gave his
opinion
>> some credibility because when the guy whose job it is to sell you a
new
>> battery tells you that you don't need one then I guess we tended to
>> believe him. Maybe he is wrong. We'll see.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279913#279913
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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