Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:58 AM - Re: Re: Alternative Alternators (FLYaDIVE)
2. 06:55 AM - Re: Re: Alternative Alternators (Pete Krotje)
3. 07:02 AM - Re: Re: Alternative Alternators (Rob Turk)
4. 08:27 AM - Re: Alternative Alternators (dons701)
5. 08:49 AM - Re: Re: Alternative Alternators (FLYaDIVE)
6. 10:10 AM - Re: Re: Alternative Alternators (Don Honabach)
7. 12:44 PM - Re: Re: Alternative Alternators (FLYaDIVE)
8. 12:58 PM - Re: Re: Alternative Alternators (FLYaDIVE)
9. 12:59 PM - Re: Re: Alternative Alternators (Pete Krotje)
10. 01:20 PM - Re: Re: Alternative Alternators (Rob Turk)
11. 03:15 PM - Re: Re: Alternative Alternators (FLYaDIVE)
12. 04:13 PM - Re: Re: Alternative Alternators (Don Honabach)
13. 11:47 PM - Re: Alternative Alternators (dons701)
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative Alternators |
Hello Don:
The amperage rating of a battery is not critical for in flight operations so
going from a 20 to a 50 or even a 100 AH battery is not going to change the
operation of the plane. UNLESS you are talking STARTING and what happens
when you loose your alternator in flight and when you consider CURRENT DRAW
Vs CURRENT SUPPLY.
Basic FAA Regs require that the Alternator must be able to supply FULL LOAD
AMPERAGE at 65% of its rating. So, if you have a 65 Amp current draw at
full load you must have a 100 AH Alternator. OK, I know you are
experimental and do not have to adhere to all the FAA regs, but Good Safety
Practise is Good Safety Practise.
Add up ALL your current draws and get an alternator that will EASILY handle
the requirements. If the alternator is putting out power 100% of the time
you have a LOAD on your engine which reduces your HP. In a car the HP draw
requirement is about 1 to 2 HP just to run the alternator under load.
The GOOD part is you are experimental so you can install an automotive
alternator with a VERY GOOD built in voltage regulator and have piece of
mind as well as a solid working electrical system. Especially one with NO
NOISE on the radios :-) Very Nice Feeling.
You also brought up a Very Good point - - - GROUNDS! You can not have too
many. Add them all over your panel and add a couple to your Battery,
Engine, Air Frame, Alternator, etc. A good ground system improves your
entire electrical system on a plane, eliminates noise, gives you good
charging and especially helpful in starting.
OK, GOOD LUCK DON!
Barry
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:56 AM, dons701 <burdon1@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks for your responces
>
> While running both carb heaters, radio, nav and strobes, transponder, etc,
> my EIS is alarming of a low voltage. While this is a temporary minor
> situation at lower RPM's, I considered upgrading this charging system for a
> more positive reliability and future lighting capabilities. Of course before
> spending money on any new system, I will make sure this 10 amp unit does not
> have any issues with resistance or grounds as it seems that the 120 watts
> produced is being consumed.
>
> It would be nice to find out what the amperage is designed to be at what
> RPM and or, what RPM full output is to be reached with minimal load. My
> battery is an Odyssey PC545 that is maintained by a proper Odyssey charger.
> I have considered going to the larger PC625 but the PC545 seems to be ok.
>
> I am not putting down the Jabiru charging system, it is what it is. IF I
> am going to upgrade from this system, I need to weigh my options
> Thanks, Don
>
> --------
> Zenith 701 #76120
> Jabiru 2200A #2456 55 hours
> Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289998#289998
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative Alternators |
This post is a great example of good advice that is probably not appropriate
for the case at hand. 701's are a good weather aircraft that is very light
and usually lightly equipped. FAA regs try to cover the worst case scenario
for a certified aircraft that can be used in IFR and needs the equipment to
fly IFR into class B airports. I really don't see the need to equip for a
scenario that will not occur with that aircraft.
Also - I would be very careful about multi point grounds for the electrical
system. Multiple ground points make it very easy for a ground loop to
occur. That's why most avionics installers use a single point for ground of
all instruments. Ground loops will cause radio noise.
I would look at installing LED wingtip lighting to reduce electrical load.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Alternative Alternators
Hello Don:
The amperage rating of a battery is not critical for in flight operations so
going from a 20 to a 50 or even a 100 AH battery is not going to change the
operation of the plane. UNLESS you are talking STARTING and what happens
when you loose your alternator in flight and when you consider CURRENT DRAW
Vs CURRENT SUPPLY.
Basic FAA Regs require that the Alternator must be able to supply FULL LOAD
AMPERAGE at 65% of its rating. So, if you have a 65 Amp current draw at
full load you must have a 100 AH Alternator. OK, I know you are
experimental and do not have to adhere to all the FAA regs, but Good Safety
Practise is Good Safety Practise.
Add up ALL your current draws and get an alternator that will EASILY handle
the requirements. If the alternator is putting out power 100% of the time
you have a LOAD on your engine which reduces your HP. In a car the HP draw
requirement is about 1 to 2 HP just to run the alternator under load.
The GOOD part is you are experimental so you can install an automotive
alternator with a VERY GOOD built in voltage regulator and have piece of
mind as well as a solid working electrical system. Especially one with NO
NOISE on the radios :-) Very Nice Feeling.
You also brought up a Very Good point - - - GROUNDS! You can not have too
many. Add them all over your panel and add a couple to your Battery,
Engine, Air Frame, Alternator, etc. A good ground system improves your
entire electrical system on a plane, eliminates noise, gives you good
charging and especially helpful in starting.
OK, GOOD LUCK DON!
Barry
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:56 AM, dons701 <burdon1@comcast.net> wrote:
Thanks for your responces
While running both carb heaters, radio, nav and strobes, transponder, etc,
my EIS is alarming of a low voltage. While this is a temporary minor
situation at lower RPM's, I considered upgrading this charging system for a
more positive reliability and future lighting capabilities. Of course before
spending money on any new system, I will make sure this 10 amp unit does not
have any issues with resistance or grounds as it seems that the 120 watts
produced is being consumed.
It would be nice to find out what the amperage is designed to be at what
RPM and or, what RPM full output is to be reached with minimal load. My
battery is an Odyssey PC545 that is maintained by a proper Odyssey charger.
I have considered going to the larger PC625 but the PC545 seems to be ok.
I am not putting down the Jabiru charging system, it is what it is. IF I am
going to upgrade from this system, I need to weigh my options
Thanks, Don
--------
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 55 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289998#289998
h as List Un/Subscription,
www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative Alternators |
Barry,
Close but not entirely right. The AH value is a multiplication of
current(A) x hours(H) and indicates the amount of energy the battery can
store. A 20AH battery will support a 1A load for 20 hours or a 4A load
for 5 hours. The value is only valid for a low-current range, when you
draw a lot of current you will not reach that rating. Your 20AH battery
will not sustain 20A for an hour, or 40A for 30 minutes..
The start rating has nothing to do with the AH rating. The start rating
is an indication for the internal resistance of the battery (usually the
quality of the materials). There are 10AH batteries that can supply 500A
start current, but also 50AH batteries that will not get over 100A due
to high internal resistance. I use an Odyssey PC680 with just 17AH, but
the ability to supply 600A start current. Plenty for my Jabiru 3300
engine.
For ground, the rule is to have one good solid ground point, do not
spread them all over the place. Take a single convenient spot. Close to
the battery and engine ground is often good. Run your ground wires
there. Do not spread them all over, as you run a big risk of ground
loops. Ground loops exist when multiple devices share a single current
path to ground. When one of them draws a lot of current or produces
current spikes (strobes for example), then the other devices share the
resulting voltage drop and get a noisy supply. If that is your radio,
then you will hear the strobe whine through the headset. It is better to
run two separate thinner ground wires to a single common ground point
than to use a fat wire to the panel and fan out ground from there. Run a
separate ground/negative wire for each device. Terminate them in a
single point.
When using shielded wires, only attach the shield to ground on one end.
The only deviation from that is the coax cables you use for COM, NAV and
transponder antenna's, they must be attached on both ends.
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: FLYaDIVE
To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Alternative Alternators
Hello Don:
The amperage rating of a battery is not critical for in flight
operations so going from a 20 to a 50 or even a 100 AH battery is not
going to change the operation of the plane. UNLESS you are talking
STARTING and what happens when you loose your alternator in flight and
when you consider CURRENT DRAW Vs CURRENT SUPPLY.
Basic FAA Regs require that the Alternator must be able to supply FULL
LOAD AMPERAGE at 65% of its rating. So, if you have a 65 Amp current
draw at full load you must have a 100 AH Alternator. OK, I know you are
experimental and do not have to adhere to all the FAA regs, but Good
Safety Practise is Good Safety Practise.
Add up ALL your current draws and get an alternator that will EASILY
handle the requirements. If the alternator is putting out power 100% of
the time you have a LOAD on your engine which reduces your HP. In a car
the HP draw requirement is about 1 to 2 HP just to run the alternator
under load.
The GOOD part is you are experimental so you can install an automotive
alternator with a VERY GOOD built in voltage regulator and have piece of
mind as well as a solid working electrical system. Especially one with
NO NOISE on the radios :-) Very Nice Feeling.
You also brought up a Very Good point - - - GROUNDS! You can not have
too many. Add them all over your panel and add a couple to your
Battery, Engine, Air Frame, Alternator, etc. A good ground system
improves your entire electrical system on a plane, eliminates noise,
gives you good charging and especially helpful in starting.
OK, GOOD LUCK DON!
Barry
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:56 AM, dons701 <burdon1@comcast.net> wrote:
<burdon1@comcast.net>
Thanks for your responces
While running both carb heaters, radio, nav and strobes,
transponder, etc, my EIS is alarming of a low voltage. While this is a
temporary minor situation at lower RPM's, I considered upgrading this
charging system for a more positive reliability and future lighting
capabilities. Of course before spending money on any new system, I will
make sure this 10 amp unit does not have any issues with resistance or
grounds as it seems that the 120 watts produced is being consumed.
It would be nice to find out what the amperage is designed to be
at what RPM and or, what RPM full output is to be reached with minimal
load. My battery is an Odyssey PC545 that is maintained by a proper
Odyssey charger. I have considered going to the larger PC625 but the
PC545 seems to be ok.
I am not putting down the Jabiru charging system, it is what it is.
IF I am going to upgrade from this system, I need to weigh my options
Thanks, Don
--------
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 55 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289998#289998
h as List Un/Subscription,
www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative Alternators |
Thanks for the info, many will benefit besides me.
I purchased my plane already built, it starts immediately and runs good. I do
have noise coming through the headset though, a popping crackly noise in the background.
I will have to locate where all the grounds are besides what is visible.
There are two grounds visible on the upper cross member on the engine side
of the fire wall, one next to the battery with a cable to the engine starter
mount per bulletin and another ground with much smaller gage wires on the pilot's
side of the same cross member next to the starter relay.
The headset jack receiver boxes are attached (grounded) directly to the aluminum
skin, I don't know if they should be insulated as I have read elsewhere on
this site.
The breaker for the alternator must be disconnected after flight or it will cause
a small drain from the battery. A separate switch, perhaps similar to a Cessna
or other needs to be installed
I have more work to do.
Thanks to ALL for your info, the continued responses will help many !!
Don
--------
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 55 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=290020#290020
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative Alternators |
Hello Pete:
Not to debate FAA regs. The requirement has nothing to do with IFR
aircraft, fair weather or foul. It goes by LOAD REQUIREMENTS of the plane.
I did not say install a 100 AH alternator - Only that the alternator should
be able to handle 100% of the load at 65% of the output, it is a safety
margin. Don can figure out what his load is and chose an alternator to do
the job. No big challenge, but a safe idea. And as you said: "I really
don=92t see the need to equip for a scenario that will not occur with that
aircraft." You are only equipping for the required load and a 35% safety
factor as well as a HP savings. Let's say Don has a 30 Amp Load, that mean
s
the alternator with safety margin would only be a 40.5 Amp alternator.
EASY! Many alternators start at 50 Amps.
AHhhhh I knew some one would bring up Ground Loops - And ... There is a Man
in the MOON! I know a lot about ground loops - Not everything - I know
about them at high frequencies - NOT AT DC. Over the past 15+ years I have
put out a challenge for someone to design and make a ground loop that I can
build and test. I still have not received that circuit! It is a urban
myth, I don't know how it started but it should be stopped. Please prove m
e
wrong. The company I work for has spent $$$ trying to prove there is such
a
thing as a ground loop - They are in the industrial end of the automotive
business, still no proof at DC. At high frequencies YES. Not DC.
Good idea Pete about the LED lights, they are even available as Strobes,
Marker and Landing Lights. Costly but very low current draw.
Barry
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Pete Krotje <pete@usjabiru.com> wrote:
> This post is a great example of good advice that is probably not
> appropriate for the case at hand. 701=92s are a good weather aircraft th
at is
> very light and usually lightly equipped. FAA regs try to cover the worst
> case scenario for a certified aircraft that can be used in IFR and needs
the
> equipment to fly IFR into class B airports. I really don=92t see the nee
d to
> equip for a scenario that will not occur with that aircraft.
>
>
> Also ' I would be very careful about multi point grounds for the electr
ical
> system. Multiple ground points make it very easy for a ground loop to
> occur. That=92s why most avionics installers use a single point for grou
nd of
> all instruments. Ground loops will cause radio noise.
>
>
> I would look at installing LED wingtip lighting to reduce electrical load
.
>
>
> Pete
>
>
> *From:* owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:56 AM
> *To:* jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Alternative Alternators
>
>
> Hello Don:
>
>
> The amperage rating of a battery is not critical for in flight operations
> so going from a 20 to a 50 or even a 100 AH battery is not going to chang
e
> the operation of the plane. UNLESS you are talking STARTING and what
> happens when you loose your alternator in flight and when you
> consider CURRENT DRAW Vs CURRENT SUPPLY.
>
>
> Basic FAA Regs require that the Alternator must be able to supply FULL LO
AD
> AMPERAGE at 65% of its rating. So, if you have a 65 Amp current draw at
> full load you must have a 100 AH Alternator. OK, I know you are
> experimental and do not have to adhere to all the FAA regs, but Good Safe
ty
> Practise is Good Safety Practise.
>
>
> Add up ALL your current draws and get an alternator that will EASILY hand
le
> the requirements. If the alternator is putting out power 100% of the tim
e
> you have a LOAD on your engine which reduces your HP. In a car the HP dr
aw
> requirement is about 1 to 2 HP just to run the alternator under load.
>
>
> The GOOD part is you are experimental so you can install an automotive
> alternator with a VERY GOOD built in voltage regulator and have piece of
> mind as well as a solid working electrical system. Especially one with N
O
> NOISE on the radios :-) Very Nice Feeling.
>
>
> You also brought up a Very Good point - - - GROUNDS! You can not have to
o
> many. Add them all over your panel and add a couple to your Battery,
> Engine, Air Frame, Alternator, etc. A good ground system improves your
> entire electrical system on a plane, eliminates noise, gives you good
> charging and especially helpful in starting.
>
>
> OK, GOOD LUCK DON!
>
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:56 AM, dons701 <burdon1@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for your responces
>
> While running both carb heaters, radio, nav and strobes, transponder, et
c,
> my EIS is alarming of a low voltage. While this is a temporary minor
> situation at lower RPM's, I considered upgrading this charging system for
a
> more positive reliability and future lighting capabilities. Of course bef
ore
> spending money on any new system, I will make sure this 10 amp unit does
not
> have any issues with resistance or grounds as it seems that the 120 watts
> produced is being consumed.
>
> It would be nice to find out what the amperage is designed to be at wha
t
> RPM and or, what RPM full output is to be reached with minimal load. My
> battery is an Odyssey PC545 that is maintained by a proper Odyssey charge
r.
> I have considered going to the larger PC625 but the PC545 seems to be ok.
>
> I am not putting down the Jabiru charging system, it is what it is. IF I
> am going to upgrade from this system, I need to weigh my options
> Thanks, Don
>
> --------
> Zenith 701 #76120
> Jabiru 2200A #2456 55 hours
> Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289998#289998
> h as List Un/Subscription,
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List" target="_blank">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ====
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative Alternators |
When I was building my 601HDS I really got caught up in questioning
everything and trying to improve on other's decisions/designs that I
just knew had to be wrong. I've since learned that almost everything
that I beefed up or 'enhanced' was a major waste of time/money although
a lesson well learned for my next plane (shhhhh, don't tell my wife!).
With that in mind, I have a 3300A on my 601HDS using the stock
alternator which is working GREAT. I do have a lot of gadgets (love my
gadgets!) and found that by using dual LED landing lands and LED strobes
that I was more than able to get within current/AMP limits. This also
allowed me to use a smaller battery and save weight there as well.
I also used a single point ground system even though my airplane is all
metal. All the ground wires go into a tabbed grounding plate and I don't
have even have the hint of noise problems and so on. Hopefully, ten
years from now I'll be pretty happy that I took the time to do this.
While for me I probably adding a few pounds of grounding cables, I now
only have two places to check for ground issues if they occur - the
single point ground block and the source device connector.
Here are some links of pictures of my panel if interested:
During Construction: http://support.pcperfect.com/601hds/cp1.jpg
In flight: http://support.pcperfect.com/601hds/cp2.jpg
Grounding Tab Block: http://support.pcperfect.com/601hds/gp.jpg
Good luck!
Don Honabach
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete
Krotje
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:51 AM
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Alternative Alternators
This post is a great example of good advice that is probably not
appropriate for the case at hand. 701's are a good weather aircraft
that is very light and usually lightly equipped. FAA regs try to cover
the worst case scenario for a certified aircraft that can be used in IFR
and needs the equipment to fly IFR into class B airports. I really
don't see the need to equip for a scenario that will not occur with that
aircraft.
Also - I would be very careful about multi point grounds for the
electrical system. Multiple ground points make it very easy for a
ground loop to occur. That's why most avionics installers use a single
point for ground of all instruments. Ground loops will cause radio
noise.
I would look at installing LED wingtip lighting to reduce electrical
load.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
FLYaDIVE
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Alternative Alternators
Hello Don:
The amperage rating of a battery is not critical for in flight
operations so going from a 20 to a 50 or even a 100 AH battery is not
going to change the operation of the plane. UNLESS you are talking
STARTING and what happens when you loose your alternator in flight and
when you consider CURRENT DRAW Vs CURRENT SUPPLY.
Basic FAA Regs require that the Alternator must be able to supply FULL
LOAD AMPERAGE at 65% of its rating. So, if you have a 65 Amp current
draw at full load you must have a 100 AH Alternator. OK, I know you are
experimental and do not have to adhere to all the FAA regs, but Good
Safety Practise is Good Safety Practise.
Add up ALL your current draws and get an alternator that will EASILY
handle the requirements. If the alternator is putting out power 100% of
the time you have a LOAD on your engine which reduces your HP. In a car
the HP draw requirement is about 1 to 2 HP just to run the alternator
under load.
The GOOD part is you are experimental so you can install an automotive
alternator with a VERY GOOD built in voltage regulator and have piece of
mind as well as a solid working electrical system. Especially one with
NO NOISE on the radios :-) Very Nice Feeling.
You also brought up a Very Good point - - - GROUNDS! You can not have
too many. Add them all over your panel and add a couple to your
Battery, Engine, Air Frame, Alternator, etc. A good ground system
improves your entire electrical system on a plane, eliminates noise,
gives you good charging and especially helpful in starting.
OK, GOOD LUCK DON!
Barry
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:56 AM, dons701 <burdon1@comcast.net> wrote:
Thanks for your responces
While running both carb heaters, radio, nav and strobes, transponder,
etc, my EIS is alarming of a low voltage. While this is a temporary
minor situation at lower RPM's, I considered upgrading this charging
system for a more positive reliability and future lighting capabilities.
Of course before spending money on any new system, I will make sure this
10 amp unit does not have any issues with resistance or grounds as it
seems that the 120 watts produced is being consumed.
It would be nice to find out what the amperage is designed to be at
what RPM and or, what RPM full output is to be reached with minimal
load. My battery is an Odyssey PC545 that is maintained by a proper
Odyssey charger. I have considered going to the larger PC625 but the
PC545 seems to be ok.
I am not putting down the Jabiru charging system, it is what it is. IF
I am going to upgrade from this system, I need to weigh my options
Thanks, Don
--------
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 55 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289998#289998
h as List Un/Subscription,
www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List"
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative Alternators |
Hello Rob:
I'm sorry I don't see where you say I am not entirely right? I did not over
expand my explanation because it is not required.
I am very familiar with all that you mention but that was not the question,
ergo not my response.
As for internal resistance. Manufactures ALL attempt to keep the internal
resistance (ir) low.
It is not in there quality interest to produce a battery with high ir. The
live cycle would be short and people would not
purchase their battery a second time. There are a few misleading
advertisement over the years which tend to lead you
to conclude the ir is lower in some batteries than others. Again, a sales
technique.
Unless you purchase a really poor Chinese Junk (pun intended) battery.
I'm sure you know: I = E/R so yes you can get 200, 300, 500, 600 and even
1200 Amps from a battery.
I = 12/.01 = 1200 Amps. But! For how long? That is not the issue. Again
sales has taken over and created a new term CCA
Cold Cranking Amps. This is totally arbitrary, why? Because there is no
standard for size of wires, length of the wires,
minimum voltage required by the starter, minimum or maximum current draw of
the starter OR the size of the load on the starter.
How is it said in French? Caviaort Emptor! [Hell I can spell in English!
Don't expect me to do it in French.] Let the Buyer be ware.
Barry
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Rob Turk <matronics@rtist.nl> wrote:
> Barry,
>
> Close but not entirely right. The AH value is a multiplication of
> current(A) x hours(H) and indicates the amount of energy the battery can
> store. A 20AH battery will support a 1A load for 20 hours or a 4A load for 5
> hours. The value is only valid for a low-current range, when you draw a lot
> of current you will not reach that rating. Your 20AH battery will not
> sustain 20A for an hour, or 40A for 30 minutes..
>
> The start rating has nothing to do with the AH rating. The start rating is
> an indication for the internal resistance of the battery (usually the
> quality of the materials). There are 10AH batteries that can supply 500A
> start current, but also 50AH batteries that will not get over 100A due to
> high internal resistance. I use an Odyssey PC680 with just 17AH, but the
> ability to supply 600A start current. Plenty for my Jabiru 3300 engine.
>
> For ground, the rule is to have one good solid ground point, do not spread
> them all over the place. Take a single convenient spot. Close to the battery
> and engine ground is often good. Run your ground wires there. Do not spread
> them all over, as you run a big risk of ground loops. Ground loops exist
> when multiple devices share a single current path to ground. When one of
> them draws a lot of current or produces current spikes (strobes for
> example), then the other devices share the resulting voltage drop and get a
> noisy supply. If that is your radio, then you will hear the strobe whine
> through the headset. It is better to run two separate thinner ground wires
> to a single common ground point than to use a fat wire to the panel and fan
> out ground from there. Run a separate ground/negative wire for each
> device. Terminate them in a single point.
>
> When using shielded wires, only attach the shield to ground on one end. The
> only deviation from that is the coax cables you use for COM, NAV and
> transponder antenna's, they must be attached on both ends.
>
> Rob
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>
> *To:* jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 11, 2010 2:56 PM
> *Subject:* Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Alternative Alternators
>
> Hello Don:
>
> The amperage rating of a battery is not critical for in flight operations
> so going from a 20 to a 50 or even a 100 AH battery is not going to change
> the operation of the plane. UNLESS you are talking STARTING and what
> happens when you loose your alternator in flight and when you
> consider CURRENT DRAW Vs CURRENT SUPPLY.
>
> Basic FAA Regs require that the Alternator must be able to supply FULL LOAD
> AMPERAGE at 65% of its rating. So, if you have a 65 Amp current draw at
> full load you must have a 100 AH Alternator. OK, I know you are
> experimental and do not have to adhere to all the FAA regs, but Good Safety
> Practise is Good Safety Practise.
>
> Add up ALL your current draws and get an alternator that will EASILY handle
> the requirements. If the alternator is putting out power 100% of the time
> you have a LOAD on your engine which reduces your HP. In a car the HP draw
> requirement is about 1 to 2 HP just to run the alternator under load.
>
> The GOOD part is you are experimental so you can install an automotive
> alternator with a VERY GOOD built in voltage regulator and have piece of
> mind as well as a solid working electrical system. Especially one with NO
> NOISE on the radios :-) Very Nice Feeling.
>
> You also brought up a Very Good point - - - GROUNDS! You can not have too
> many. Add them all over your panel and add a couple to your Battery,
> Engine, Air Frame, Alternator, etc. A good ground system improves your
> entire electrical system on a plane, eliminates noise, gives you good
> charging and especially helpful in starting.
>
>
> OK, GOOD LUCK DON!
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:56 AM, dons701 <burdon1@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Thanks for your responces
>>
>> While running both carb heaters, radio, nav and strobes, transponder,
>> etc, my EIS is alarming of a low voltage. While this is a temporary minor
>> situation at lower RPM's, I considered upgrading this charging system for a
>> more positive reliability and future lighting capabilities. Of course before
>> spending money on any new system, I will make sure this 10 amp unit does not
>> have any issues with resistance or grounds as it seems that the 120 watts
>> produced is being consumed.
>>
>> It would be nice to find out what the amperage is designed to be at what
>> RPM and or, what RPM full output is to be reached with minimal load. My
>> battery is an Odyssey PC545 that is maintained by a proper Odyssey charger.
>> I have considered going to the larger PC625 but the PC545 seems to be ok.
>>
>> I am not putting down the Jabiru charging system, it is what it is. IF I
>> am going to upgrade from this system, I need to weigh my options
>> Thanks, Don
>>
>> --------
>> Zenith 701 #76120
>> Jabiru 2200A #2456 55 hours
>> Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289998#289998
>> h as List Un/Subscription,
>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ====
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c*
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative Alternators |
Hello Don:
In 99% of the intercom and radio installations the Headset jack is INSULATED
from ground.
1 - First check what the manufacture recommends.
2 - Second take a LQQK at the mounting of the jacks. There should be a
FIBER WASHER which insulates the jack from the case.
And since your metal case is mounted to the frame... Insulated from ground.
Take an ohm reading from the JACK to GROUND it should show OPEN.
3 - Third the wires should be of the SHIELD type. At the JACK's the shield
is NOT connected to the ground.
Here is a basic rule to follow: RF (Radio Frequencies) these are
frequencies that can transmit such as 121.5 Mhz,
the SHIELD is grounded at BOTH ENDS of the wire.
AF (Audio Frequencies) these are frequencies which you HEAR, such as sounds
from a speaker,
the SHIELD is grounded ONLY at the SOURCE, such as the back of the intercom
or at the back of the COMM radio.
5 - GROUNDS - A good LQQKing ground does not mean it is a good ground.
Aluminum is a poor conductor of
electricity and corrodes very easy. You have to undo the connection, clean
it with a brass brush, ALL PARTS, ALL CONTACT AREAS,
install new star lock washers on both sides of the washer... In contact with
the aluminum and between the washer and nut.
And if possible coat the connection with something like battery grease.
There are other tricks but lets stick to the simple and basics for now.
Question: Does the sound change with the RPM?
If so then you more than likely have alternator noise.
If it is very crackly and also changes with RPM, than check your spark plug
wires.
Can you put a O-Scope on the headset jacks and see what frequency the noise
is?
OK, that is all for now. Keep the info flowing.
Barry
===================
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:26 AM, dons701 <burdon1@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the info, many will benefit besides me.
>
> I purchased my plane already built, it starts immediately and runs good. I
> do have noise coming through the headset though, a popping crackly noise in
> the background. I will have to locate where all the grounds are besides what
> is visible. There are two grounds visible on the upper cross member on the
> engine side of the fire wall, one next to the battery with a cable to the
> engine starter mount per bulletin and another ground with much smaller gage
> wires on the pilot's side of the same cross member next to the starter
> relay.
>
> The headset jack receiver boxes are attached (grounded) directly to the
> aluminum skin, I don't know if they should be insulated as I have read
> elsewhere on this site.
>
> The breaker for the alternator must be disconnected after flight or it
> will cause a small drain from the battery. A separate switch, perhaps
> similar to a Cessna or other needs to be installed
>
> I have more work to do.
>
> Thanks to ALL for your info, the continued responses will help many !!
> Don
>
> --------
> Zenith 701 #76120
> Jabiru 2200A #2456 55 hours
> Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=290020#290020
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative Alternators |
I would guess by your posting that you know little about ground loops in
aircraft wiring if you think multiple grounds do not produce the ground loop
phenomenon. We have rewired many customer panels where there were multiple
ground points causing radio interference and noise. We have considerable
hands on experience in dealing with the issue. It is a well known
occurrence well known to avionics installers everywhere.
As far as alternators - one can load up an airplane to the point it will be
very systems redundant and capacity excessive to the point it will not even
leave the ground. Point is that the particular aircraft in question is VERY
light and most likely will be operated day VFR. The aircraft is not
designed to the minimum systems necessary to allow fun sightseeing flights.
It's not going very far cross country and is usually not going very high.
What's the point of going overboard on systems redundancy or capacity. From
experience flying a 701 I know that there is very little continuous
electrical load. The alternator on the engine is fully capable of handling
it. Why try to kill the mouse with an elephant gun?
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Alternative Alternators
Hello Pete:
Not to debate FAA regs. The requirement has nothing to do with IFR
aircraft, fair weather or foul. It goes by LOAD REQUIREMENTS of the plane.
I did not say install a 100 AH alternator - Only that the alternator should
be able to handle 100% of the load at 65% of the output, it is a safety
margin. Don can figure out what his load is and chose an alternator to do
the job. No big challenge, but a safe idea. And as you said: "I really
don't see the need to equip for a scenario that will not occur with that
aircraft." You are only equipping for the required load and a 35% safety
factor as well as a HP savings. Let's say Don has a 30 Amp Load, that means
the alternator with safety margin would only be a 40.5 Amp alternator.
EASY! Many alternators start at 50 Amps.
AHhhhh I knew some one would bring up Ground Loops - And ... There is a Man
in the MOON! I know a lot about ground loops - Not everything - I know
about them at high frequencies - NOT AT DC. Over the past 15+ years I have
put out a challenge for someone to design and make a ground loop that I can
build and test. I still have not received that circuit! It is a urban
myth, I don't know how it started but it should be stopped. Please prove me
wrong. The company I work for has spent $$$ trying to prove there is such a
thing as a ground loop - They are in the industrial end of the automotive
business, still no proof at DC. At high frequencies YES. Not DC.
Good idea Pete about the LED lights, they are even available as Strobes,
Marker and Landing Lights. Costly but very low current draw.
Barry
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Pete Krotje <pete@usjabiru.com> wrote:
This post is a great example of good advice that is probably not appropriate
for the case at hand. 701's are a good weather aircraft that is very light
and usually lightly equipped. FAA regs try to cover the worst case scenario
for a certified aircraft that can be used in IFR and needs the equipment to
fly IFR into class B airports. I really don't see the need to equip for a
scenario that will not occur with that aircraft.
Also - I would be very careful about multi point grounds for the electrical
system. Multiple ground points make it very easy for a ground loop to
occur. That's why most avionics installers use a single point for ground of
all instruments. Ground loops will cause radio noise.
I would look at installing LED wingtip lighting to reduce electrical load.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Alternative Alternators
Hello Don:
The amperage rating of a battery is not critical for in flight operations so
going from a 20 to a 50 or even a 100 AH battery is not going to change the
operation of the plane. UNLESS you are talking STARTING and what happens
when you loose your alternator in flight and when you consider CURRENT DRAW
Vs CURRENT SUPPLY.
Basic FAA Regs require that the Alternator must be able to supply FULL LOAD
AMPERAGE at 65% of its rating. So, if you have a 65 Amp current draw at
full load you must have a 100 AH Alternator. OK, I know you are
experimental and do not have to adhere to all the FAA regs, but Good Safety
Practise is Good Safety Practise.
Add up ALL your current draws and get an alternator that will EASILY handle
the requirements. If the alternator is putting out power 100% of the time
you have a LOAD on your engine which reduces your HP. In a car the HP draw
requirement is about 1 to 2 HP just to run the alternator under load.
The GOOD part is you are experimental so you can install an automotive
alternator with a VERY GOOD built in voltage regulator and have piece of
mind as well as a solid working electrical system. Especially one with NO
NOISE on the radios :-) Very Nice Feeling.
You also brought up a Very Good point - - - GROUNDS! You can not have too
many. Add them all over your panel and add a couple to your Battery,
Engine, Air Frame, Alternator, etc. A good ground system improves your
entire electrical system on a plane, eliminates noise, gives you good
charging and especially helpful in starting.
OK, GOOD LUCK DON!
Barry
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:56 AM, dons701 <burdon1@comcast.net> wrote:
Thanks for your responces
While running both carb heaters, radio, nav and strobes, transponder, etc,
my EIS is alarming of a low voltage. While this is a temporary minor
situation at lower RPM's, I considered upgrading this charging system for a
more positive reliability and future lighting capabilities. Of course before
spending money on any new system, I will make sure this 10 amp unit does not
have any issues with resistance or grounds as it seems that the 120 watts
produced is being consumed.
It would be nice to find out what the amperage is designed to be at what
RPM and or, what RPM full output is to be reached with minimal load. My
battery is an Odyssey PC545 that is maintained by a proper Odyssey charger.
I have considered going to the larger PC625 but the PC545 seems to be ok.
I am not putting down the Jabiru charging system, it is what it is. IF I am
going to upgrade from this system, I need to weigh my options
Thanks, Don
--------
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 55 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289998#289998
h as List Un/Subscription,
www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
<http://forums.matronics.com/>
Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
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http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative Alternators |
Hi Barry,
The first part of your message lead me to believe that you coupled AH to
cranking amps, that's why I responded. I guess I misread or
misunderstood that part, my appologies. I guess that's what I get from
being a non-native speaker ;-)
Best regards,
Rob (from The Netherlands, a lot closer to France, and unable to speak a
word of it ;-)
----- Original Message -----
From: FLYaDIVE
To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Alternative Alternators
Hello Rob:
I'm sorry I don't see where you say I am not entirely right? I did
not over expand my explanation because it is not required.
I am very familiar with all that you mention but that was not the
question, ergo not my response.
As for internal resistance. Manufactures ALL attempt to keep the
internal resistance (ir) low.
It is not in there quality interest to produce a battery with high ir.
The live cycle would be short and people would not
purchase their battery a second time. There are a few misleading
advertisement over the years which tend to lead you
to conclude the ir is lower in some batteries than others. Again, a
sales technique.
Unless you purchase a really poor Chinese Junk (pun intended) battery.
I'm sure you know: I = E/R so yes you can get 200, 300, 500, 600
and even 1200 Amps from a battery.
I = 12/.01 = 1200 Amps. But! For how long? That is not the
issue. Again sales has taken over and created a new term CCA
Cold Cranking Amps. This is totally arbitrary, why? Because there is
no standard for size of wires, length of the wires,
minimum voltage required by the starter, minimum or maximum current
draw of the starter OR the size of the load on the starter.
How is it said in French? Caviaort Emptor! [Hell I can spell in
English! Don't expect me to do it in French.] Let the Buyer be ware.
Barry
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Rob Turk <matronics@rtist.nl> wrote:
Barry,
Close but not entirely right. The AH value is a multiplication of
current(A) x hours(H) and indicates the amount of energy the battery can
store. A 20AH battery will support a 1A load for 20 hours or a 4A load
for 5 hours. The value is only valid for a low-current range, when you
draw a lot of current you will not reach that rating. Your 20AH battery
will not sustain 20A for an hour, or 40A for 30 minutes..
The start rating has nothing to do with the AH rating. The start
rating is an indication for the internal resistance of the battery
(usually the quality of the materials). There are 10AH batteries that
can supply 500A start current, but also 50AH batteries that will not get
over 100A due to high internal resistance. I use an Odyssey PC680 with
just 17AH, but the ability to supply 600A start current. Plenty for my
Jabiru 3300 engine.
For ground, the rule is to have one good solid ground point, do not
spread them all over the place. Take a single convenient spot. Close to
the battery and engine ground is often good. Run your ground wires
there. Do not spread them all over, as you run a big risk of ground
loops. Ground loops exist when multiple devices share a single current
path to ground. When one of them draws a lot of current or produces
current spikes (strobes for example), then the other devices share the
resulting voltage drop and get a noisy supply. If that is your radio,
then you will hear the strobe whine through the headset. It is better to
run two separate thinner ground wires to a single common ground point
than to use a fat wire to the panel and fan out ground from there. Run a
separate ground/negative wire for each device. Terminate them in a
single point.
When using shielded wires, only attach the shield to ground on one
end. The only deviation from that is the coax cables you use for COM,
NAV and transponder antenna's, they must be attached on both ends.
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: FLYaDIVE
To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Alternative Alternators
Hello Don:
The amperage rating of a battery is not critical for in flight
operations so going from a 20 to a 50 or even a 100 AH battery is not
going to change the operation of the plane. UNLESS you are talking
STARTING and what happens when you loose your alternator in flight and
when you consider CURRENT DRAW Vs CURRENT SUPPLY.
Basic FAA Regs require that the Alternator must be able to supply
FULL LOAD AMPERAGE at 65% of its rating. So, if you have a 65 Amp
current draw at full load you must have a 100 AH Alternator. OK, I know
you are experimental and do not have to adhere to all the FAA regs, but
Good Safety Practise is Good Safety Practise.
Add up ALL your current draws and get an alternator that will
EASILY handle the requirements. If the alternator is putting out power
100% of the time you have a LOAD on your engine which reduces your HP.
In a car the HP draw requirement is about 1 to 2 HP just to run the
alternator under load.
The GOOD part is you are experimental so you can install an
automotive alternator with a VERY GOOD built in voltage regulator and
have piece of mind as well as a solid working electrical system.
Especially one with NO NOISE on the radios :-) Very Nice Feeling.
You also brought up a Very Good point - - - GROUNDS! You can not
have too many. Add them all over your panel and add a couple to your
Battery, Engine, Air Frame, Alternator, etc. A good ground system
improves your entire electrical system on a plane, eliminates noise,
gives you good charging and especially helpful in starting.
OK, GOOD LUCK DON!
Barry
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:56 AM, dons701 <burdon1@comcast.net>
wrote:
<burdon1@comcast.net>
Thanks for your responces
While running both carb heaters, radio, nav and strobes,
transponder, etc, my EIS is alarming of a low voltage. While this is a
temporary minor situation at lower RPM's, I considered upgrading this
charging system for a more positive reliability and future lighting
capabilities. Of course before spending money on any new system, I will
make sure this 10 amp unit does not have any issues with resistance or
grounds as it seems that the 120 watts produced is being consumed.
It would be nice to find out what the amperage is designed to
be at what RPM and or, what RPM full output is to be reached with
minimal load. My battery is an Odyssey PC545 that is maintained by a
proper Odyssey charger. I have considered going to the larger PC625 but
the PC545 seems to be ok.
I am not putting down the Jabiru charging system, it is what it
is. IF I am going to upgrade from this system, I need to weigh my
options
Thanks, Don
--------
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 55 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289998#289998
h as List Un/Subscription,
www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative Alternators |
Pete:
Obviously you did not read any of my postings carefully. Maybe to you it is
a "phenomena", I still am waiting 15+ years for someone to build me a DC
Ground Loop or draw me a functional DC Ground Loop circuit. To me and
ENGINEERING it is a poor ground that is easily addressed.
Now, if you would like to take this off-line I will gladly discuss this
further with you. Here on-line you are only perpetuating a myth.
But, for those reading this debate let's put in a few definitions:
1 - BAD GROUND = An electrical condition that is causing you problems.
2 - GROUND FAULT = ONLY exists with an AC circuit
3 - CORRECTION = What you do to eliminate the BAD GROUND
4 - NUMBER OF GROUNDS = Immaterial to GROUND FAULT - - ONLY needed to
prevent a BAD GROUND -- Beats trying to solve an in-flight problem
5 - IF YOU HAVE ONLY ONE GROUND = And it fails you are screwed! If that
happens to be on your panel and you are talking to ATC you better not try t
o
enter Class C, B or A. If it happens to your battery and you are going to
lose everything - especially if you have a CDI.
Also here is a very good definition of GROUND FAULT:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity)
Notice they only mention AC circuits.
And to para-phrase you: 'Ground Faults are a well known' Old Wives's Tail
when it comes to a DC circuit.
And the PROOF of it is: How do you eliminate the problem? Make a BETTER
GROUND.
NEVER FORGET - The problem is you are dealing with ALUMINUM and it CORRODES
and it is NOT A GOOD CONDUCTOR.
Simple request / answer. Band together to kill the myth. Least women pass
out from the 'Vapors'.
Barry
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Pete Krotje <pete@usjabiru.com> wrote:
> I would guess by your posting that you know little about ground loops in
> aircraft wiring if you think multiple grounds do not produce the ground l
oop
> phenomenon. We have rewired many customer panels where there were multip
le
> ground points causing radio interference and noise. We have considerable
> hands on experience in dealing with the issue. It is a well known
> occurrence well known to avionics installers everywhere.
>
>
> As far as alternators ' one can load up an airplane to the point it wil
l be
> very systems redundant and capacity excessive to the point it will not ev
en
> leave the ground. Point is that the particular aircraft in question is V
ERY
> light and most likely will be operated day VFR. The aircraft is not
> designed to the minimum systems necessary to allow fun sightseeing flight
s.
> It=92s not going very far cross country and is usually not going very hig
h.
> What=92s the point of going overboard on systems redundancy or capacity.
From
> experience flying a 701 I know that there is very little continuous
> electrical load. The alternator on the engine is fully capable of handli
ng
> it. Why try to kill the mouse with an elephant gun?
>
>
> Pete
>
> *From:* owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:42 AM
>
> *To:* jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Alternative Alternators
>
>
> Hello Pete:
>
>
> Not to debate FAA regs. The requirement has nothing to do with IFR
> aircraft, fair weather or foul. It goes by LOAD REQUIREMENTS of the plan
e.
> I did not say install a 100 AH alternator - Only that the alternator shou
ld
> be able to handle 100% of the load at 65% of the output, it is a safety
> margin. Don can figure out what his load is and chose an alternator to d
o
> the job. No big challenge, but a safe idea. And as you said: "I really
> don=92t see the need to equip for a scenario that will not occur with tha
t
> aircraft." You are only equipping for the required load and a 35% safety
> factor as well as a HP savings. Let's say Don has a 30 Amp Load, that me
ans
> the alternator with safety margin would only be a 40.5 Amp alternator.
> EASY! Many alternators start at 50 Amps.
>
>
> AHhhhh I knew some one would bring up Ground Loops - And ... There is a M
an
> in the MOON! I know a lot about ground loops - Not everything - I know
> about them at high frequencies - NOT AT DC. Over the past 15+ years I ha
ve
> put out a challenge for someone to design and make a ground loop that I c
an
> build and test. I still have not received that circuit! It is a urban
> myth, I don't know how it started but it should be stopped. Please prove
me
> wrong. The company I work for has spent $$$ trying to prove there is suc
h a
> thing as a ground loop - They are in the industrial end of the automotive
> business, still no proof at DC. At high frequencies YES. Not DC.
>
>
> Good idea Pete about the LED lights, they are even available as Strobes,
> Marker and Landing Lights. Costly but very low current draw.
>
>
> Barry
>
> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Pete Krotje <pete@usjabiru.com> wrote:
>
> This post is a great example of good advice that is probably not
> appropriate for the case at hand. 701=92s are a good weather aircraft th
at is
> very light and usually lightly equipped. FAA regs try to cover the worst
> case scenario for a certified aircraft that can be used in IFR and needs
the
> equipment to fly IFR into class B airports. I really don=92t see the nee
d to
> equip for a scenario that will not occur with that aircraft.
>
>
> Also ' I would be very careful about multi point grounds for the electr
ical
> system. Multiple ground points make it very easy for a ground loop to
> occur. That=92s why most avionics installers use a single point for grou
nd of
> all instruments. Ground loops will cause radio noise.
>
>
> I would look at installing LED wingtip lighting to reduce electrical load
.
>
>
> Pete
>
>
> *From:* owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:56 AM
>
> *To:* jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Alternative Alternators
>
>
> Hello Don:
>
>
> The amperage rating of a battery is not critical for in flight operations
> so going from a 20 to a 50 or even a 100 AH battery is not going to chang
e
> the operation of the plane. UNLESS you are talking STARTING and what
> happens when you loose your alternator in flight and when you
> consider CURRENT DRAW Vs CURRENT SUPPLY.
>
>
> Basic FAA Regs require that the Alternator must be able to supply FULL LO
AD
> AMPERAGE at 65% of its rating. So, if you have a 65 Amp current draw at
> full load you must have a 100 AH Alternator. OK, I know you are
> experimental and do not have to adhere to all the FAA regs, but Good Safe
ty
> Practise is Good Safety Practise.
>
>
> Add up ALL your current draws and get an alternator that will EASILY hand
le
> the requirements. If the alternator is putting out power 100% of the tim
e
> you have a LOAD on your engine which reduces your HP. In a car the HP dr
aw
> requirement is about 1 to 2 HP just to run the alternator under load.
>
>
> The GOOD part is you are experimental so you can install an automotive
> alternator with a VERY GOOD built in voltage regulator and have piece of
> mind as well as a solid working electrical system. Especially one with N
O
> NOISE on the radios :-) Very Nice Feeling.
>
>
> You also brought up a Very Good point - - - GROUNDS! You can not have to
o
> many. Add them all over your panel and add a couple to your Battery,
> Engine, Air Frame, Alternator, etc. A good ground system improves your
> entire electrical system on a plane, eliminates noise, gives you good
> charging and especially helpful in starting.
>
>
> OK, GOOD LUCK DON!
>
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:56 AM, dons701 <burdon1@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for your responces
>
> While running both carb heaters, radio, nav and strobes, transponder, et
c,
> my EIS is alarming of a low voltage. While this is a temporary minor
> situation at lower RPM's, I considered upgrading this charging system for
a
> more positive reliability and future lighting capabilities. Of course bef
ore
> spending money on any new system, I will make sure this 10 amp unit does
not
> have any issues with resistance or grounds as it seems that the 120 watts
> produced is being consumed.
>
> It would be nice to find out what the amperage is designed to be at wha
t
> RPM and or, what RPM full output is to be reached with minimal load. My
> battery is an Odyssey PC545 that is maintained by a proper Odyssey charge
r.
> I have considered going to the larger PC625 but the PC545 seems to be ok.
>
> I am not putting down the Jabiru charging system, it is what it is. IF I
> am going to upgrade from this system, I need to weigh my options
> Thanks, Don
>
> --------
> Zenith 701 #76120
> Jabiru 2200A #2456 55 hours
> Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289998#289998
>
> h as List Un/Subscription,
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List" target="_blank">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ====
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List*
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-L
ist*
>
> *ttp://forums.matronics.com*
>
> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> * *
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List*
>
> **
>
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>
> **
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> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative Alternators |
For what it's worth (and probably not much!), my major issue with
multiple ground points is that it sets you up to have different ground
references for your various devices which will/do lead to problems
especially if the devices need to communicate with each other (i.e.
radio and audio panel). In my book, much easier to setup one ground
point that is well done then a whole bunch. If nothing else it just goes
to the keep it simple thought process.
As for the single point of failure, I think that is being a bit overly
dramatic - most of us only have one engine, one pilot, one plane, one
carburetor, one prop, one oil pump, and so on. Besides, having multiple
failure points doesn't necessarily mean it is safer, just more the
failure analysis is more complex.
Don H.
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
FLYaDIVE
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Alternative Alternators
Pete:
Obviously you did not read any of my postings carefully. Maybe to you it
is a "phenomena", I still am waiting 15+ years for someone to build me a
DC Ground Loop or draw me a functional DC Ground Loop circuit. To me
and ENGINEERING it is a poor ground that is easily addressed.
Now, if you would like to take this off-line I will gladly discuss this
further with you. Here on-line you are only perpetuating a myth.
But, for those reading this debate let's put in a few definitions:
1 - BAD GROUND = An electrical condition that is causing you problems.
2 - GROUND FAULT = ONLY exists with an AC circuit
3 - CORRECTION = What you do to eliminate the BAD GROUND
4 - NUMBER OF GROUNDS = Immaterial to GROUND FAULT - - ONLY needed to
prevent a BAD GROUND -- Beats trying to solve an in-flight problem
5 - IF YOU HAVE ONLY ONE GROUND = And it fails you are screwed! If
that
happens to be on your panel and you are talking to ATC you better not
try to enter Class C, B or A. If it happens to your battery and you are
going to lose everything - especially if you have a CDI.
Also here is a very good definition of GROUND FAULT:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity)
Notice they only mention AC circuits.
And to para-phrase you: 'Ground Faults are a well known' Old Wives's
Tail when it comes to a DC circuit.
And the PROOF of it is: How do you eliminate the problem? Make a
BETTER GROUND.
NEVER FORGET - The problem is you are dealing with ALUMINUM and it
CORRODES and it is NOT A GOOD CONDUCTOR.
Simple request / answer. Band together to kill the myth. Least women
pass out from the 'Vapors'.
Barry
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Pete Krotje <pete@usjabiru.com> wrote:
I would guess by your posting that you know little about ground loops in
aircraft wiring if you think multiple grounds do not produce the ground
loop phenomenon. We have rewired many customer panels where there were
multiple ground points causing radio interference and noise. We have
considerable hands on experience in dealing with the issue. It is a
well known occurrence well known to avionics installers everywhere.
As far as alternators - one can load up an airplane to the point it will
be very systems redundant and capacity excessive to the point it will
not even leave the ground. Point is that the particular aircraft in
question is VERY light and most likely will be operated day VFR. The
aircraft is not designed to the minimum systems necessary to allow fun
sightseeing flights. It's not going very far cross country and is
usually not going very high. What's the point of going overboard on
systems redundancy or capacity. From experience flying a 701 I know
that there is very little continuous electrical load. The alternator on
the engine is fully capable of handling it. Why try to kill the mouse
with an elephant gun?
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
FLYaDIVE
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Alternative Alternators
Hello Pete:
Not to debate FAA regs. The requirement has nothing to do with IFR
aircraft, fair weather or foul. It goes by LOAD REQUIREMENTS of the
plane. I did not say install a 100 AH alternator - Only that the
alternator should be able to handle 100% of the load at 65% of the
output, it is a safety margin. Don can figure out what his load is and
chose an alternator to do the job. No big challenge, but a safe idea.
And as you said: "I really don't see the need to equip for a scenario
that will not occur with that aircraft." You are only equipping for the
required load and a 35% safety factor as well as a HP savings. Let's
say Don has a 30 Amp Load, that means the alternator with safety margin
would only be a 40.5 Amp alternator. EASY! Many alternators start at
50 Amps.
AHhhhh I knew some one would bring up Ground Loops - And ... There is a
Man in the MOON! I know a lot about ground loops - Not everything - I
know about them at high frequencies - NOT AT DC. Over the past 15+
years I have put out a challenge for someone to design and make a ground
loop that I can build and test. I still have not received that circuit!
It is a urban myth, I don't know how it started but it should be
stopped. Please prove me wrong. The company I work for has spent $$$
trying to prove there is such a thing as a ground loop - They are in the
industrial end of the automotive business, still no proof at DC. At
high frequencies YES. Not DC.
Good idea Pete about the LED lights, they are even available as Strobes,
Marker and Landing Lights. Costly but very low current draw.
Barry
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Pete Krotje <pete@usjabiru.com> wrote:
This post is a great example of good advice that is probably not
appropriate for the case at hand. 701's are a good weather aircraft
that is very light and usually lightly equipped. FAA regs try to cover
the worst case scenario for a certified aircraft that can be used in IFR
and needs the equipment to fly IFR into class B airports. I really
don't see the need to equip for a scenario that will not occur with that
aircraft.
Also - I would be very careful about multi point grounds for the
electrical system. Multiple ground points make it very easy for a
ground loop to occur. That's why most avionics installers use a single
point for ground of all instruments. Ground loops will cause radio
noise.
I would look at installing LED wingtip lighting to reduce electrical
load.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
FLYaDIVE
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Alternative Alternators
Hello Don:
The amperage rating of a battery is not critical for in flight
operations so going from a 20 to a 50 or even a 100 AH battery is not
going to change the operation of the plane. UNLESS you are talking
STARTING and what happens when you loose your alternator in flight and
when you consider CURRENT DRAW Vs CURRENT SUPPLY.
Basic FAA Regs require that the Alternator must be able to supply FULL
LOAD AMPERAGE at 65% of its rating. So, if you have a 65 Amp current
draw at full load you must have a 100 AH Alternator. OK, I know you are
experimental and do not have to adhere to all the FAA regs, but Good
Safety Practise is Good Safety Practise.
Add up ALL your current draws and get an alternator that will EASILY
handle the requirements. If the alternator is putting out power 100% of
the time you have a LOAD on your engine which reduces your HP. In a car
the HP draw requirement is about 1 to 2 HP just to run the alternator
under load.
The GOOD part is you are experimental so you can install an automotive
alternator with a VERY GOOD built in voltage regulator and have piece of
mind as well as a solid working electrical system. Especially one with
NO NOISE on the radios :-) Very Nice Feeling.
You also brought up a Very Good point - - - GROUNDS! You can not have
too many. Add them all over your panel and add a couple to your
Battery, Engine, Air Frame, Alternator, etc. A good ground system
improves your entire electrical system on a plane, eliminates noise,
gives you good charging and especially helpful in starting.
OK, GOOD LUCK DON!
Barry
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:56 AM, dons701 <burdon1@comcast.net> wrote:
Thanks for your responces
While running both carb heaters, radio, nav and strobes, transponder,
etc, my EIS is alarming of a low voltage. While this is a temporary
minor situation at lower RPM's, I considered upgrading this charging
system for a more positive reliability and future lighting capabilities.
Of course before spending money on any new system, I will make sure this
10 amp unit does not have any issues with resistance or grounds as it
seems that the 120 watts produced is being consumed.
It would be nice to find out what the amperage is designed to be at
what RPM and or, what RPM full output is to be reached with minimal
load. My battery is an Odyssey PC545 that is maintained by a proper
Odyssey charger. I have considered going to the larger PC625 but the
PC545 seems to be ok.
I am not putting down the Jabiru charging system, it is what it is. IF
I am going to upgrade from this system, I need to weigh my options
Thanks, Don
--------
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 55 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289998#289998
h as List Un/Subscription,
www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
<http://forums.matronics.com/>
Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
ist"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
ist"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative Alternators |
WOW... [Shocked]
A few things for certain. I am about to begin Sport Pilot training in my 701 and
my issues for right now are minor. I can fly now.
I know that no matter how many or how few ground connections one has they need
to be clean. Doing this as I go will not take much time. As for the radio noise
I will do some troubleshooting by switching off the alternator at the breaker
then listen for any change. Use my meter on the headset jack's female sockets
and check for ground. If I find some continuity I can remove and insulate
them and test again. etc..etc..
I would love to upgrade to the Jabiru 20 amp system if I needed it or not as
the engines come that way now from the factory, but the price is to steep for
me. For that reason, at the beginning of this post in the enlightenment of experimentation,
I asked if anyone had installed something different on their planes.
Perhaps I will kill two problems, occasional low voltage and some noise through
the headsets by cleaning and testing my grounds.
Thanks for ALL your thoughts.
Don
--------
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 55 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=290088#290088
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