Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:03 AM - Ghost in the engine 2200A (Bob Miller)
2. 06:27 AM - Re: Ghost in the engine 2200A (Lynn Matteson)
3. 06:40 AM - Ghost in the engine 2200A (Beckman, Rick)
4. 06:40 AM - Re: Ghost in the engine 2200A (Mark Hubelbank)
5. 09:53 AM - Re: Ghost in the engine 2200A (Don Honabach)
6. 10:40 AM - Re: Jabiru 3300 Thoughts On Oil Level (ronlee)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Ghost in the engine 2200A |
Hi Y'all,
I've got an engine problem that has all the experts stumped, including thos
e
at US Jabiru. I'm grounded and heartbroken, and short of calling Click an
d
Clack and playing Stump the Chump, don't know what to do. So if you can
solve this, you'll earn my undying appreciation (which, plus a nickel, will
get you....)
Here's a review of the situation so far.
*The Problem:*
Immediately after the annual inspection in March, the engine began running
rough above about 2,650 rpm. It starts with a little roughness, and the
longer it runs above that rpm the rougher it gets, and soon the rpm starts
bouncing around wildly within a range of about 2,500 to 2,750. One of the
cylinders will start cooling down in EGTs and CHTs. Which cylinder it is
will change; it=92s nearly always 2 or 4, sometimes 3, and rarely 1. When
the power is reduced below about 2,650, the cool cylinder warms up and
everything runs smoothly.
It seems like after every change, it runs a little bit better for a little
while, but then reverts to the same problem. It=92s interesting that I can
run
it for a while and have the problem be on one cylinder, then shut it down
for 5 minutes and then start it again and have the problem be on another
cylinder.
*The following have resulted in no change:*
L, R, or Both magnetos.
Carb heat On or Off.
Electric fuel pump On or Off.
Replaced rotors, distributor cap, spark plug wires, and sparkplugs.
New carburetor. (The only difference this made was that a couple EGTs ran
too high.)
*Inspections that were normal:*
I=92ve removed the carb and looked into the intake manifold but could see n
o
obstructions or abnormalities.
There was no metal in the oil filter.
All the valve springs appear to have the same resistance when I push on
them. The rocker arms all appear perfectly aligned when in the full up/ou
t
position. (since the problem bounces from cylinder to cylinder, valve seems
unlikely..?)
I also removed the air intake Scat hose and tried running it with carb
intake open to the engine compartment (with both the old and new carb).
--
Bob Miller
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Ghost in the engine 2200A |
How many hours on the engine, and what serial number is it?
Hydraulics or solid lifters? Not that the answers will make any
difference, but it would be nice to know whether it's a new engine or
one of the older ones.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying...1040+ hrs (since 3-27-2006)
On Aug 19, 2010, at 8:55 AM, Bob Miller wrote:
> Hi Y'all,
>
> I've got an engine problem that has all the experts stumped,
> including those at US Jabiru. I'm grounded and heartbroken, and
> short of calling Click and Clack and playing Stump the Chump,
> don't know what to do. So if you can solve this, you'll earn my
> undying appreciation (which, plus a nickel, will get you....)
>
> Here's a review of the situation so far.
>
> The Problem:
>
> Immediately after the annual inspection in March, the engine began
> running rough above about 2,650 rpm. It starts with a little
> roughness, and the longer it runs above that rpm the rougher it
> gets, and soon the rpm starts bouncing around wildly within a range
> of about 2,500 to 2,750. One of the cylinders will start cooling
> down in EGTs and CHTs. Which cylinder it is will change; its
> nearly always 2 or 4, sometimes 3, and rarely 1. When the power
> is reduced below about 2,650, the cool cylinder warms up and
> everything runs smoothly.
>
>
> It seems like after every change, it runs a little bit better for a
> little while, but then reverts to the same problem. Its
> interesting that I can run it for a while and have the problem be
> on one cylinder, then shut it down for 5 minutes and then start it
> again and have the problem be on another cylinder.
>
>
> The following have resulted in no change:
>
> L, R, or Both magnetos.
>
> Carb heat On or Off.
>
> Electric fuel pump On or Off.
>
> Replaced rotors, distributor cap, spark plug wires, and sparkplugs.
>
> New carburetor. (The only difference this made was that a couple
> EGTs ran too high.)
>
>
> Inspections that were normal:
>
> Ive removed the carb and looked into the intake manifold but could
> see no obstructions or abnormalities.
>
> There was no metal in the oil filter.
>
> All the valve springs appear to have the same resistance when I
> push on them. The rocker arms all appear perfectly aligned when
> in the full up/out position. (since the problem bounces from
> cylinder to cylinder, valve seems unlikely..?)
>
> I also removed the air intake Scat hose and tried running it with
> carb intake open to the engine compartment (with both the old and
> new carb).
>
>
> --
> Bob Miller
>
>
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> contribution_-
> ===========================================================
Message 3
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| Subject: | Ghost in the engine 2200A |
You stated you changed the rotor, cap, etc. Did you
change, or does it even have, a capacitor? I have had big problems on
smaller engines in the past because of a faulty capacitor.
Hope this helps. p.s....a nickel won't buy one
Rick
Do not archive
Hi Y'all,
I've got an engine problem that has all the experts stumped, including
those at US Jabiru. I'm grounded and heartbroken, and short of calling
Click and Clack and playing Stump the Chump, don't know what to do. So
if you can solve this, you'll earn my undying appreciation (which, plus
a nickel, will get you....)
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Ghost in the engine 2200A |
Bob,
This sounds very similar to the problems I had with the Bing. There
was nothing wrong with it as in being defective, it just does not like
my aitframe. The Jabiru solution was to "straighten" the air intake but
that was not possible. Very small and un-intended changes in the air
intake path seem to have very large effects on the bing.
You can test this theory by disconnecting the air intake hose (and
air box sampling line!) completely and letting the carb take in raw air.
If that fixes it, the problem is the air intake path. Fixing it may not
be practical as the same thing could happen again.
I gave up and now have a Rotec TBI-40. I am upgrading the mount and
will have it finished in a couple of weeks. If this upgrade works I will
post everything.
On 08/19/2010 8:55 AM, Bob Miller wrote:
> Hi Y'all,
>
> I've got an engine problem that has all the experts stumped, including
> those at US Jabiru. I'm grounded and heartbroken, and short of
> calling Click and Clack and playing Stump the Chump, don't know what
> to do. So if you can solve this, you'll earn my undying appreciation
> (which, plus a nickel, will get you....)
>
>
> Here's a review of the situation so far.
>
> _The Problem:_
>
> Immediately after the annual inspection in March, the engine began
> running rough above about 2,650 rpm. It starts with a little
> roughness, and the longer it runs above that rpm the rougher it gets,
> and soon the rpm starts bouncing around wildly within a range of about
> 2,500 to 2,750. One of the cylinders will start cooling down in EGTs
> and CHTs. Which cylinder it is will change; its nearly always 2 or
> 4, sometimes 3, and rarely 1. When the power is reduced below about
> 2,650, the cool cylinder warms up and everything runs smoothly.
>
> It seems like after every change, it runs a little bit better for a
> little while, but then reverts to the same problem. Its interesting
> that I can run it for a while and have the problem be on one cylinder,
> then shut it down for 5 minutes and then start it again and have the
> problem be on another cylinder.
>
> _The following have resulted in no change:_
>
> L, R, or Both magnetos.
>
> Carb heat On or Off.
>
> Electric fuel pump On or Off.
>
> Replaced rotors, distributor cap, spark plug wires, and sparkplugs.
>
> New carburetor. (The only difference this made was that a couple EGTs
> ran too high.)
>
> _Inspections that were normal:_
>
> Ive removed the carb and looked into the intake manifold but could
> see no obstructions or abnormalities.
>
> There was no metal in the oil filter.
>
> All the valve springs appear to have the same resistance when I push
> on them. The rocker arms all appear perfectly aligned when in the
> full up/out position. (since the problem bounces from cylinder to
> cylinder, valve seems unlikely..?)
>
> I also removed the air intake Scat hose and tried running it with carb
> intake open to the engine compartment (with both the old and new carb).
>
>
> --
> Bob Miller
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
Mark Hubelbank
NorthEast Monitoring
2 Clock Tower Place
Suite 555
Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA
mhubel@nemon.com
978-443-3955
Message 5
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| Subject: | Ghost in the engine 2200A |
Bob,
I posted this on the other list as well for you, but I added a few more tho
ughts this morning that might be helpful.
........
I would have sworn you bumped the intake house during the annual as it soun
ded like turbulent air going into the carb which would have also made sense
considering the random cylinders temps as the hose tends to flex and move
a bit each test/RPM setting as the engine vibrates and moves under differen
t loads/settings.
I didn't see anything in your message about fuel testing beyond electric fu
el pump on/off. Is it possible the mechanical fuel pump is bad/going bad (I
'm assuming the 2200 has a mechanical fuel pump as my 3300A does?) or there
is a restriction in your fuel lines (new filter? mini clog?). Might be wor
th it to setup a temporary gravity feed setup that goes direct to the carb
(and/or into the mechanical fuel pump) so you can bypass fuel line related
issues. The roughness at higher RPMs for me has always been air related, bu
t lack of fuel I would think would cause the same symptoms you've described
.
By the way, you mentioned that the one of the cylinders starts to cool down
when running rough, while I'm not an expert by any means, this would seem
to indicate that you are running rich at higher RPMs which makes me wonder
even more about the fuel pump/fuel hose setup going into the carb. The cyli
nder that cools down is the one that just happens to get the most fuel whic
h will tend to change based on the air intake flows. This also seems to jiv
e with your comments as most carbs are a bit unbalanced and favor either th
e left or right bank of cylinders which will get just a tad bit more air ..
. which seems to align with your 2/4 being the usual culprits.
You might also want to check the air/fuel manifold if that is the correct t
erm for it - I haven't looked closely at this area, but any small leaks mig
ht be okay at lower RPMs, but at higher RPMs could cause these same sort of
troubles.
I'm assuming you re-tighten the head screws on the cylinders during the ann
ual - did you have any noticeable issues there? Are you 100% sure that all
the head bolts are 100% at the specified torque values - you got the middle
'hidden' screw as well?
Good luck and please share when you find out the cause.
Don Honabach
P.S. When you tested with the scat house disconnected from the carb, did yo
u also remove the air sense tube on the carb as well? If not, you definitel
y will want to re-do that test with the air sense tube and scat disconnecte
d. When troubleshooting my roughness at high RPM, I actually flew this way
(carb totally open to cowling) and quickly determined that my issue was tur
bulent air in the intake which took a ton of little tweaks to smooth out. A
lso, did you plug up the air-intake on your cowling when doing the test. If
not, you may have had pressured type air shooting into the cowling during
the test (even during ground testing) and if it was anywhere near the carb
it would have messed things up for you at higher RPMs as the Bing carb need
s smooth air to function properly at high RPMs.
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengi
ne-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Miller
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 5:56 AM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Ghost in the engine 2200A
Hi Y'all,
I've got an engine problem that has all the experts stumped, including thos
e at US Jabiru. I'm grounded and heartbroken, and short of calling Click
and Clack and playing Stump the Chump, don't know what to do. So if you c
an solve this, you'll earn my undying appreciation (which, plus a nickel, w
ill get you....)
Here's a review of the situation so far.
The Problem:
Immediately after the annual inspection in March, the engine began running
rough above about 2,650 rpm. It starts with a little roughness, and the lo
nger it runs above that rpm the rougher it gets, and soon the rpm starts bo
uncing around wildly within a range of about 2,500 to 2,750. One of the cy
linders will start cooling down in EGTs and CHTs. Which cylinder it is wil
l change; it's nearly always 2 or 4, sometimes 3, and rarely 1. When the
power is reduced below about 2,650, the cool cylinder warms up and everythi
ng runs smoothly.
It seems like after every change, it runs a little bit better for a little
while, but then reverts to the same problem. It's interesting that I can ru
n it for a while and have the problem be on one cylinder, then shut it down
for 5 minutes and then start it again and have the problem be on another c
ylinder.
The following have resulted in no change:
L, R, or Both magnetos.
Carb heat On or Off.
Electric fuel pump On or Off.
Replaced rotors, distributor cap, spark plug wires, and sparkplugs.
New carburetor. (The only difference this made was that a couple EGTs ran
too high.)
Inspections that were normal:
I've removed the carb and looked into the intake manifold but could see no
obstructions or abnormalities.
There was no metal in the oil filter.
All the valve springs appear to have the same resistance when I push on the
m. The rocker arms all appear perfectly aligned when in the full up/out p
osition. (since the problem bounces from cylinder to cylinder, valve seems
unlikely..?)
I also removed the air intake Scat hose and tried running it with carb inta
ke open to the engine compartment (with both the old and new carb).
--
Bob Miller
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 Thoughts On Oil Level |
In many engines overfilling with oil will cause it to foam. Foaming oil will not
pump well and causes low oil pressure. Foaming oil does not absorb heat well.
Foaming oil does not lubricate well. The bottom line is, do not overfill any
engine with more oil then specified in the owners manual.
If your engine calls for three quarts of oil at oil change put only that much in
and the see where it shows on the dipstick and never get over that point whenever
adding oil. The incorrect oil level on the dipstick can be more pronounced
on tail dragger's.
--------
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309426#309426
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