---------------------------------------------------------- JabiruEngine-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 08/19/10: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:03 AM - Ghost in the engine 2200A (Bob Miller) 2. 06:27 AM - Re: Ghost in the engine 2200A (Lynn Matteson) 3. 06:40 AM - Ghost in the engine 2200A (Beckman, Rick) 4. 06:40 AM - Re: Ghost in the engine 2200A (Mark Hubelbank) 5. 09:53 AM - Re: Ghost in the engine 2200A (Don Honabach) 6. 10:40 AM - Re: Jabiru 3300 Thoughts On Oil Level (ronlee) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:27 AM PST US From: Bob Miller Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Ghost in the engine 2200A Hi Y'all, I've got an engine problem that has all the experts stumped, including thos e at US Jabiru. I'm grounded and heartbroken, and short of calling Click an d Clack and playing Stump the Chump, don't know what to do. So if you can solve this, you'll earn my undying appreciation (which, plus a nickel, will get you....) Here's a review of the situation so far. *The Problem:* Immediately after the annual inspection in March, the engine began running rough above about 2,650 rpm. It starts with a little roughness, and the longer it runs above that rpm the rougher it gets, and soon the rpm starts bouncing around wildly within a range of about 2,500 to 2,750. One of the cylinders will start cooling down in EGTs and CHTs. Which cylinder it is will change; it=92s nearly always 2 or 4, sometimes 3, and rarely 1. When the power is reduced below about 2,650, the cool cylinder warms up and everything runs smoothly. It seems like after every change, it runs a little bit better for a little while, but then reverts to the same problem. It=92s interesting that I can run it for a while and have the problem be on one cylinder, then shut it down for 5 minutes and then start it again and have the problem be on another cylinder. *The following have resulted in no change:* L, R, or Both magnetos. Carb heat On or Off. Electric fuel pump On or Off. Replaced rotors, distributor cap, spark plug wires, and sparkplugs. New carburetor. (The only difference this made was that a couple EGTs ran too high.) *Inspections that were normal:* I=92ve removed the carb and looked into the intake manifold but could see n o obstructions or abnormalities. There was no metal in the oil filter. All the valve springs appear to have the same resistance when I push on them. The rocker arms all appear perfectly aligned when in the full up/ou t position. (since the problem bounces from cylinder to cylinder, valve seems unlikely..?) I also removed the air intake Scat hose and tried running it with carb intake open to the engine compartment (with both the old and new carb). -- Bob Miller ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:24 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Ghost in the engine 2200A How many hours on the engine, and what serial number is it? Hydraulics or solid lifters? Not that the answers will make any difference, but it would be nice to know whether it's a new engine or one of the older ones. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062 Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer) Electroair direct-fire ignition system Rotec TBI-40 injection Status: flying...1040+ hrs (since 3-27-2006) On Aug 19, 2010, at 8:55 AM, Bob Miller wrote: > Hi Y'all, > > I've got an engine problem that has all the experts stumped, > including those at US Jabiru. I'm grounded and heartbroken, and > short of calling Click and Clack and playing Stump the Chump, > don't know what to do. So if you can solve this, you'll earn my > undying appreciation (which, plus a nickel, will get you....) > > Here's a review of the situation so far. > > The Problem: > > Immediately after the annual inspection in March, the engine began > running rough above about 2,650 rpm. It starts with a little > roughness, and the longer it runs above that rpm the rougher it > gets, and soon the rpm starts bouncing around wildly within a range > of about 2,500 to 2,750. One of the cylinders will start cooling > down in EGTs and CHTs. Which cylinder it is will change; its > nearly always 2 or 4, sometimes 3, and rarely 1. When the power > is reduced below about 2,650, the cool cylinder warms up and > everything runs smoothly. > > > It seems like after every change, it runs a little bit better for a > little while, but then reverts to the same problem. Its > interesting that I can run it for a while and have the problem be > on one cylinder, then shut it down for 5 minutes and then start it > again and have the problem be on another cylinder. > > > The following have resulted in no change: > > L, R, or Both magnetos. > > Carb heat On or Off. > > Electric fuel pump On or Off. > > Replaced rotors, distributor cap, spark plug wires, and sparkplugs. > > New carburetor. (The only difference this made was that a couple > EGTs ran too high.) > > > Inspections that were normal: > > Ive removed the carb and looked into the intake manifold but could > see no obstructions or abnormalities. > > There was no metal in the oil filter. > > All the valve springs appear to have the same resistance when I > push on them. The rocker arms all appear perfectly aligned when > in the full up/out position. (since the problem bounces from > cylinder to cylinder, valve seems unlikely..?) > > I also removed the air intake Scat hose and tried running it with > carb intake open to the engine compartment (with both the old and > new carb). > > > -- > Bob Miller > > > ============================================================ _- > ============================================================ _- > contribution_- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:04 AM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Ghost in the engine 2200A From: "Beckman, Rick" You stated you changed the rotor, cap, etc. Did you change, or does it even have, a capacitor? I have had big problems on smaller engines in the past because of a faulty capacitor. Hope this helps. p.s....a nickel won't buy one Rick Do not archive Hi Y'all, I've got an engine problem that has all the experts stumped, including those at US Jabiru. I'm grounded and heartbroken, and short of calling Click and Clack and playing Stump the Chump, don't know what to do. So if you can solve this, you'll earn my undying appreciation (which, plus a nickel, will get you....) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:05 AM PST US From: Mark Hubelbank Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Ghost in the engine 2200A Bob, This sounds very similar to the problems I had with the Bing. There was nothing wrong with it as in being defective, it just does not like my aitframe. The Jabiru solution was to "straighten" the air intake but that was not possible. Very small and un-intended changes in the air intake path seem to have very large effects on the bing. You can test this theory by disconnecting the air intake hose (and air box sampling line!) completely and letting the carb take in raw air. If that fixes it, the problem is the air intake path. Fixing it may not be practical as the same thing could happen again. I gave up and now have a Rotec TBI-40. I am upgrading the mount and will have it finished in a couple of weeks. If this upgrade works I will post everything. On 08/19/2010 8:55 AM, Bob Miller wrote: > Hi Y'all, > > I've got an engine problem that has all the experts stumped, including > those at US Jabiru. I'm grounded and heartbroken, and short of > calling Click and Clack and playing Stump the Chump, don't know what > to do. So if you can solve this, you'll earn my undying appreciation > (which, plus a nickel, will get you....) > > > Here's a review of the situation so far. > > _The Problem:_ > > Immediately after the annual inspection in March, the engine began > running rough above about 2,650 rpm. It starts with a little > roughness, and the longer it runs above that rpm the rougher it gets, > and soon the rpm starts bouncing around wildly within a range of about > 2,500 to 2,750. One of the cylinders will start cooling down in EGTs > and CHTs. Which cylinder it is will change; its nearly always 2 or > 4, sometimes 3, and rarely 1. When the power is reduced below about > 2,650, the cool cylinder warms up and everything runs smoothly. > > It seems like after every change, it runs a little bit better for a > little while, but then reverts to the same problem. Its interesting > that I can run it for a while and have the problem be on one cylinder, > then shut it down for 5 minutes and then start it again and have the > problem be on another cylinder. > > _The following have resulted in no change:_ > > L, R, or Both magnetos. > > Carb heat On or Off. > > Electric fuel pump On or Off. > > Replaced rotors, distributor cap, spark plug wires, and sparkplugs. > > New carburetor. (The only difference this made was that a couple EGTs > ran too high.) > > _Inspections that were normal:_ > > Ive removed the carb and looked into the intake manifold but could > see no obstructions or abnormalities. > > There was no metal in the oil filter. > > All the valve springs appear to have the same resistance when I push > on them. The rocker arms all appear perfectly aligned when in the > full up/out position. (since the problem bounces from cylinder to > cylinder, valve seems unlikely..?) > > I also removed the air intake Scat hose and tried running it with carb > intake open to the engine compartment (with both the old and new carb). > > > -- > Bob Miller > > > * > > > * -- Mark Hubelbank NorthEast Monitoring 2 Clock Tower Place Suite 555 Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA mhubel@nemon.com 978-443-3955 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:53:47 AM PST US From: Don Honabach Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Ghost in the engine 2200A Bob, I posted this on the other list as well for you, but I added a few more tho ughts this morning that might be helpful. ........ I would have sworn you bumped the intake house during the annual as it soun ded like turbulent air going into the carb which would have also made sense considering the random cylinders temps as the hose tends to flex and move a bit each test/RPM setting as the engine vibrates and moves under differen t loads/settings. I didn't see anything in your message about fuel testing beyond electric fu el pump on/off. Is it possible the mechanical fuel pump is bad/going bad (I 'm assuming the 2200 has a mechanical fuel pump as my 3300A does?) or there is a restriction in your fuel lines (new filter? mini clog?). Might be wor th it to setup a temporary gravity feed setup that goes direct to the carb (and/or into the mechanical fuel pump) so you can bypass fuel line related issues. The roughness at higher RPMs for me has always been air related, bu t lack of fuel I would think would cause the same symptoms you've described .. By the way, you mentioned that the one of the cylinders starts to cool down when running rough, while I'm not an expert by any means, this would seem to indicate that you are running rich at higher RPMs which makes me wonder even more about the fuel pump/fuel hose setup going into the carb. The cyli nder that cools down is the one that just happens to get the most fuel whic h will tend to change based on the air intake flows. This also seems to jiv e with your comments as most carbs are a bit unbalanced and favor either th e left or right bank of cylinders which will get just a tad bit more air .. . which seems to align with your 2/4 being the usual culprits. You might also want to check the air/fuel manifold if that is the correct t erm for it - I haven't looked closely at this area, but any small leaks mig ht be okay at lower RPMs, but at higher RPMs could cause these same sort of troubles. I'm assuming you re-tighten the head screws on the cylinders during the ann ual - did you have any noticeable issues there? Are you 100% sure that all the head bolts are 100% at the specified torque values - you got the middle 'hidden' screw as well? Good luck and please share when you find out the cause. Don Honabach P.S. When you tested with the scat house disconnected from the carb, did yo u also remove the air sense tube on the carb as well? If not, you definitel y will want to re-do that test with the air sense tube and scat disconnecte d. When troubleshooting my roughness at high RPM, I actually flew this way (carb totally open to cowling) and quickly determined that my issue was tur bulent air in the intake which took a ton of little tweaks to smooth out. A lso, did you plug up the air-intake on your cowling when doing the test. If not, you may have had pressured type air shooting into the cowling during the test (even during ground testing) and if it was anywhere near the carb it would have messed things up for you at higher RPMs as the Bing carb need s smooth air to function properly at high RPMs. From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengi ne-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Miller Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 5:56 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Ghost in the engine 2200A Hi Y'all, I've got an engine problem that has all the experts stumped, including thos e at US Jabiru. I'm grounded and heartbroken, and short of calling Click and Clack and playing Stump the Chump, don't know what to do. So if you c an solve this, you'll earn my undying appreciation (which, plus a nickel, w ill get you....) Here's a review of the situation so far. The Problem: Immediately after the annual inspection in March, the engine began running rough above about 2,650 rpm. It starts with a little roughness, and the lo nger it runs above that rpm the rougher it gets, and soon the rpm starts bo uncing around wildly within a range of about 2,500 to 2,750. One of the cy linders will start cooling down in EGTs and CHTs. Which cylinder it is wil l change; it's nearly always 2 or 4, sometimes 3, and rarely 1. When the power is reduced below about 2,650, the cool cylinder warms up and everythi ng runs smoothly. It seems like after every change, it runs a little bit better for a little while, but then reverts to the same problem. It's interesting that I can ru n it for a while and have the problem be on one cylinder, then shut it down for 5 minutes and then start it again and have the problem be on another c ylinder. The following have resulted in no change: L, R, or Both magnetos. Carb heat On or Off. Electric fuel pump On or Off. Replaced rotors, distributor cap, spark plug wires, and sparkplugs. New carburetor. (The only difference this made was that a couple EGTs ran too high.) Inspections that were normal: I've removed the carb and looked into the intake manifold but could see no obstructions or abnormalities. There was no metal in the oil filter. All the valve springs appear to have the same resistance when I push on the m. The rocker arms all appear perfectly aligned when in the full up/out p osition. (since the problem bounces from cylinder to cylinder, valve seems unlikely..?) I also removed the air intake Scat hose and tried running it with carb inta ke open to the engine compartment (with both the old and new carb). -- Bob Miller ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:40:17 AM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Jabiru 3300 Thoughts On Oil Level From: "ronlee" In many engines overfilling with oil will cause it to foam. Foaming oil will not pump well and causes low oil pressure. Foaming oil does not absorb heat well. Foaming oil does not lubricate well. The bottom line is, do not overfill any engine with more oil then specified in the owners manual. If your engine calls for three quarts of oil at oil change put only that much in and the see where it shows on the dipstick and never get over that point whenever adding oil. The incorrect oil level on the dipstick can be more pronounced on tail dragger's. -------- Ron Lee Tucson, Arizona Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309426#309426 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message jabiruengine-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/JabiruEngine-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/jabiruengine-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/jabiruengine-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.