Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:44 AM - Re: Re: 3300 - low oil pressure at high RPM (Kayberg@aol.com)
2. 09:41 AM - Re: Re: 3300 - low oil pressure at high RPM (Randy)
3. 10:08 AM - Re: Shielded wiring (Noel Loveys)
4. 10:11 AM - Re: Shielded wiring (Noel Loveys)
5. 12:45 PM - Re: Re: 3300 - low oil pressure at high RPM (Lynn Matteson)
6. 12:57 PM - Re: Shielded wiring for P leads (Noel Loveys)
7. 03:01 PM - Re: Shielded wiring for P leads (FLYaDIVE)
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| Subject: | Re: 3300 - low oil pressure at high RPM |
Hi Roger,
Good point that wiring is shared. Yes, there is a commonality in that
regard.
However, Jabiru requires CHT's on each cylinder to warrantee the engine.
Also recomends EGT's on each. Neither are necessary on a Rotax 912-S.
Conversely a water temp and water pressure is not needed on a Jabiru!
They can be quite handy on a Rotax.
I think my real point is that using association as a troubleshooting
technique can be misleading. The two have totally different oil systems and
components. No need to "burp" a Jabiru. Oil cooler lines are a lower
pressure with Rotax. Rotax engines turn nearly twice as fast as a Jabiru.
Too
much oil in a Jabiru can result in low oil pressure and high oil temps.
Too much oil in a Rotax doesn't make much difference....it will just run out
the tank overflow.
I know I am preaching to the choir, but just wanted to comment.
Doug
In a message dated 9/23/2010 1:22:27 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
ssadiver1@yahoo.com writes:
Hi Doug,
I agree whole heartedly, a Jabiru is not a Rotax, but the gauges, sensors,
senders and wire hook ups share many commonalities in wiring and they are
the same company in many cases and have the same issues. The specific
engine doesn't really matter.
The exact same rational can be used in different make cars. They are very
different, but share electrical needs and wiring with the same principles.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 3300 - low oil pressure at high RPM |
Does anyone happen to know the thread type (size) for the oil pressure
sender on a Jabiru 3300 (1/8-27npt or 1/4-18npt)?
Thanks,
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 9:42 AM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: 3300 - low oil pressure at high RPM
>
> Having a low oil level will cause this because many oils will foam, then
> you start pump in some air and this reeks havoc on a sender and your
> internal parts. Some are more prone to foaming than others. If you use an
> electrical oil pressure sender then yes a poor ground can cause this.
> These are a resister type and very sensitive to poor grounding. I deal
> with this a lot in Flight Design CT's. If it were a mechanical type gauge
> with actual oil in it then no it wouldn't be the cause. Oil pressure
> senders are notorious for going bad. Like the Rotax, it uses a VDO oil
> pressure sender and they do go bad. If the pressure goes down on
> throttling up and then back up when throttle is reduced look definitely at
> the ground. If the gauge pegs out at the max look at the ground. If it
> drops to very low like 15-20 psi then most likely a sender or gauge, but I
> agree that in flight a quick cross checking to make sure it really is a
> sender and not a real low pressure issue is extremely pruden!
> t and I wouldn't fly it until I had a handle on the problem. The only sure
> way to check these is on the ground. Tie the plane down so you can run up
> the rpm. Put a mechanical gauge setup in line with the electronic sender
> and run the engine. Make sure that they read the same. 98% of the time
> when I do it this way the real engine oil pressure is ok and I find it is
> just the sender or the ground. So use good diagnostics on the ground and
> find the problem in an a to b to c to d logical diagnostic pattern.
>
>
> p.s.
> The sender or the gauge may have the poor ground.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> 520-574-1080
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=313374#313374
>
>
>
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In this case the frequencies that are common on the P-leads, around twice to
four times the rpm of the engine. (Depends on the engine) The idea of the
shield is to prevent the spikes from leaking onto the buss.
Of course shields are not only used to keep EMI (Electro-Magnetic
Interference) leaking from a wire core but also to keep EMI or RFI (Radio
Frequency Interference) out of wire cores.
Unshielded wires can also be subject to parasitic resonance. If that
happens then your electrical system can do many interesting things every
time you press the ptt. Television stations used to have a grounded faraday
cage built around their control rooms with extremely good grounds (note
plural) to protect the equipment from RFI. Shielding wire is the same thing
on a smaller, much smaller scale.
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: September 21, 2010 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Shielded wiring
At what frequencies Noel?
What frequency are the spikes?
O! Wait a second... There ARE NO SPIKES on a SHIELD ... It is at the same
potential as GROUND!
Barry
On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Grounding at both ends turns the shielded wire into a capacitive inductor.
Grounding at one end only, usually the end which is closest to the source of
the power. Grounding at one end allows spikes and RFI to be sent to ground
efficiently.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AZFlyer
Sent: September 19, 2010 4:51 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Shielded wiring
List,
As I am major wiring challenged, I'm reading all the "experts" on getting my
3300 wired. There seems to be one school of thought on "Shielded wiring"
that says..." ground both ends" and another school says only "ground the
source end." or risk a Ground Loop (whatever that is?)
source: Bingelis, Greg Richter, AeroElectric
I haven't located that book " Wiring for Dummies" so, any help would be
appreciated...
Thanks,
Mike
--------
Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com
601 XL-B, 3300, Dynon
Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312943#312943
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You only miss the cheap stuff that Radio Shack used to have when they are
gone... Now in Newfoundland I have to order in copper clad and many other
items that I used to pick up as needed at the local Radio Scrap.
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: September 21, 2010 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Shielded wiring
Very Good Points Noel.
On #4 - It does work BOTH ways.
On #5 -- Very Good Point Neil.... I failed to mention that. Thanks for
catching me. AND since we are in the EXPERIMENTAL CLASS - - - Radio Shack
(of which I despise) makes a very good filter, two of them mater of fact: A
Alternator filter and an inline filter. The cost use to be $15 each. CHEEP
when you compare it against your travel time and build time.
And THANK YOU Noel.
I guess I am a bit like you too ... "not always" ;-)
Barry
On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 9:46 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
#1 most important. To emphasize what Barry has written even if you take it
off it may still look clean but may not be. So be sure to clean it
vigorously. One thing though if you have to clean aluminium don't use steel
wool, aluminium oxide paper is safe to clean aluminium. Shards of steel or
iron will imbed itself into aluminium and cause corrosion in the aluminium.
#2 Full agreement if in doubt ground it out!
#3 Again full agreement but the shielding is to protect from outside
interference.
#4 The only RF circuits that should be grounded at both ends are Coaxial
connections. Of course coax is used almost entirely for RF transmissions.
Again the ground braid needs to be clean!
#5 Again I'm in total agreement with Barry but... Sometimes alternator
squeal will penetrate the front end of your radios. In that case you will
need a choke on the input to the radio to filter out the squeal. A choke is
a circuit that comprises a capacitor and a coil of wire. The good news is
they are readily available at auto parts shops.
Not often I agree with everything a person says but this is really one of
the exceptions that makes the rule... Well written Barry.
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: September 19, 2010 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Shielded wiring
Mike:
Here are the RULES for Grounds and Shielding:
1 - GROUNDS - You can't inspect a ground by looking at it... YOU HAVE TO
REMOVE IT... And while it is off clean CLEAN the contacts and replace the
star washers..
2 - GROUNDS - The more the merrier. It took a LONG time but even Bob
Nicholes FINALLY caught on and NOW SELLS multi ground point blocks. I use
to frequent his web site/email list and pounded my case for about a year.
But old wives tails die hard.
3 - GROUNDS - Ground Loops do NOT occur at DC. They are a High Frequency
occurrence - High Frequency is in the RF Range (RF = Radio Frequency -
Transmittable Frequencies)(Not Audio Frequencies... AF). AND I still have a
challenge out that NO ONE has met. MAKE ME A GROUND LOOP DC CIRCUIT!
4 - SHIELDING - Or in this case: What End of a Shield To Ground?
RF circuits you shield at BOTH ENDS. And lets consider RF as only the
frequencies we see in out planes... VHF.
I know, I know, we all have GPS and they are at microwave frequencies. BUT!
You are not building the units or the antennas, just installing them.
5 - SHIELDING - When you consider things such as Alternator Noise... The
noise is in the audio frequency range and the source is the alternator so
you ground at the source/alternator.
NOW! What happens went the alternator wires reach the ACU/VR (Alternator
Control Unit/Voltage Regulator) and then go out to other locations (ALT
Switch)? Well there the rule stating says ground the source, but what is
the source?
The ACU/VR is the source, But it is already Grounded, usually to the
firewall. SOooooo what do you do with the SHIELD?
You play Electrical Engineer... Not on TV but on your plane. Start with
grounding at the ACU/VR.
But, think ahead and plan ahead. Make a Ground point at the ALT Switch and
put a ring lug on the shield. If you find ALT Noise try grounding at the
ground point you made with the shield near (as close as possible) the ALT
Switch.
It is a GOOD idea to make Ring Lug Grounds on both ends of the shield just
in case the noise did not go to the same school as the electrons. YET! In
all honesty I have never found that to be the case.
6 - Don't forget to install a Capacitor on the OUTPUT of the Alternator B+.
All the shielding in the world won't do dittily if the noise is traveling
out and down your B+.
Barry
On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 3:20 PM, AZFlyer <millrML@aol.com> wrote:
List,
As I am major wiring challenged, I'm reading all the "experts" on getting my
3300 wired. There seems to be one school of thought on "Shielded wiring"
that says..." ground both ends" and another school says only "ground the
source end." or risk a Ground Loop (whatever that is?)
source: Bingelis, Greg Richter, AeroElectric
I haven't located that book " Wiring for Dummies" so, any help would be
appreciated...
Thanks,
Mike
--------
Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com
601 XL-B, 3300, Dynon
Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312943#312943
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| Subject: | Re: 3300 - low oil pressure at high RPM |
As mentioned by Pete here, the thread is metric, but the 1/8 NPT fits
it. I can verify that I ordered the 1/8 NPT, installed it and it does
work....on a 2200. This is the case with both of the useable oil
pressure ports.
Frankly, I don't understand why Jabiru would have tapped this to a
metric thread, when all (most all, as I've found) of the other
threads in the engine are good ol' USA threads, that is, either USC
or USF.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying...1054 hrs (since 3-27-2006)
On Sep 23, 2010, at 12:30 PM, Randy wrote:
>
> Does anyone happen to know the thread type (size) for the oil
> pressure sender on a Jabiru 3300 (1/8-27npt or 1/4-18npt)?
>
> Thanks,
> Randy
Message 6
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| Subject: | Shielded wiring for P leads |
Mark:
The EMI given off by P leads is hardly at RF frequencies as the sound is
actually generated by the mags or alternator both of which are well into
audio frequency. Even to shield a wire from RFI grounding at one end
prevents the accidental construction of a ground plane at the end
furthest from the source. Even when wiring very complex panels in large
aircraft shielded wires are generally shielded only at the source end.
For example; The mic wire which comes from the transceiver to the audio
panel should only have the shield grounded at the Transceiver end. The
mic wire that goes from the audio panel to the pilot/co-pilot jacks
(they are different) will have the shield grounded at the audio panel.
The mic cord itself is grounded through the shield attached to the base
ring of the jack.
All that takes care of stray RF getting into the Mic system (hopefully
;-D) but then there are the EMI sounds that can get into the DC source
to the radios. This EMI is things like alternator noise and ignition
noise. Again to prevent shielded wire from becoming a capacitive bridge
into the DC power wires for the radios it is normally only shield
grounded at the source (close to the generator) end.
With some of these systems you may actually come across a situation
where an extra ground will protect a system... just don=99t ask
anyone to explain why.
Some sources of EMI and there are a lot more than I can list here
Fouled spark plugs, Worn crystallized plug wires, worn capacitors in the
alternator, Poor grounding on an ECU, Poor grounding of the engine case
to the electrical circuit, Poorly grounded strobe system, Poor grounding
of the radio stack, poor grounding of the braid at the antenna end of
feed coax. Gee it=99s surprising how many times grounding comes
up. Rahter than having added grounds going willy-nilly I think
it=99s better to make sure the ones installed and which worked for
sometimes years are all clean. To clean these grounds you must
disconnect them, clean the contact areas and reattach them. Looking at
a connection doesn=99t count.
While you are at it why not make a diagram of the wiring of your plane.
Just a simple block diagram will do. Show the colours of the wires, the
connection plugs and where all the grounds are. Such a diagram will
make future troubleshooting a whole lot easier both for yourself and
future owners of your plane. Put all your diagrams in your aircraft
(log) book so you can find it easily.
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Hubelbank
Sent: September 21, 2010 10:47 AM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Shielded wiring for P leads
To all working with noise in aircraft wiring. I have been following the
listings on the subject of shielding and as a design engineer, I have
one thing to add (without the intent of generating any controversy).
This may help in cases where noise is comming from the ignition "P"
leads which run from the mags to the ignition key switch. There is a lot
of talk on grounding one end vers both ends of a shield. When one is
working with a RF situation, one needs to ground both ends otherwise the
shield will simple pick up the signal from the center conductor and act
as an antenna itself. After all an antenna at VHF frequencies is simply
a short wire connected at one end. In the case of the "P" leads, you may
be radiating RF energy picked up from the mags into the instrument panel
area, exactly where you really don't want it.
Thus when trying to prevent RF from "leaking" out, one needs to ground
the shield at both ends. This is more problematic in a composite
aircraft and other measures may be needed at the instrument panel end if
there is nothing to ground to. In those cases, some other RF tricks may
be required. I have not actually had to "de-noise" such an installation
but I would first try a combination of terminations (50 ohm carbon
resistor in series with 0.001 uf ceramic cap - very short leads from
shield to center conductor) and ferrite suppressors on the wire. Also
note that by using wire that has high loss at VHF some of the conducted
interference is attenuated. Typically non-coax shielded wire
(MIL-C-27500) is in this class.
Note that the connect shield at one end logic was originated to deal
with low frequency issues like ground loops. An even better solution in
some of those cases is to float the device at one end. For example for a
microphone lead, one can use insulating washers to separate the jack
from the airframe and then use the shield to provide the return path.
This is the best way to go when possible. All this is mentioned to
various degrees in the literature but I thought it does not hurt to give
the example.
--
Mark Hubelbank
NorthEast Monitoring
2 Clock Tower Place
Suite 555
Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA
mhubel@nemon.com
978-443-3955
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Shielded wiring for P leads |
Noel:
Please read my responses within the body of your post.
Barry
On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Mark:
>
>
> The EMI given off by P leads is hardly at RF frequencies as the sound is
> actually generated by the mags
>
[Barry] - There SURE IS RF given off by a Mag. How? Well when
the points OPEN they create a SPARK... The Spacing of the Points is know as
a Spark Gap... A.K.A. Spark Gap Transmitter... It is the exact same thing
Hertz and Marconi experimented with way back in the days of "The Eiather" .
So YES, Mark and Noel you sure do want to Shield and Ground Both Ends.
LOADED QUESTION Noel: Back in the day what did they use to control the
Frequency?
> or alternator both of which are well into audio frequency. Even to shiel
d
> a wire from RFI grounding at one end prevents the accidental construction
of
> a ground plane
>
[Barry] - Ground planes don't just happen ... Especially like in the
above explanation
A ground plane is Frequency, Length, Area and Distance dependent. A shield
is NOT a ground plane..
> at the end furthest from the source. Even when wiring very complex panel
s
> in large aircraft shielded wires are generally shielded only at the sourc
e
> end.
>
[Barry] - Gaggle - Please go back and read my post on the RULES of Groundin
g
and Shielding.
THEY WORK!
Shielding is broken down into AF & RF. That is all I'm going to say for
now. Please Read My Post.
Let's not re-invent the wheel. Especially with bend spokes.
Barry
E.E. & M.E.
For example; The mic wire which comes from the transceiver to the audio
> panel should only have the shield grounded at the Transceiver end. The m
ic
> wire that goes from the audio panel to the pilot/co-pilot jacks (they are
> different) will have the shield grounded at the audio panel. The mic cor
d
> itself is grounded through the shield attached to the base ring of the ja
ck.
>
>
> All that takes care of stray RF getting into the Mic system (hopefully ;-
D)
> but then there are the EMI sounds that can get into the DC source to the
> radios. This EMI is things like alternator noise and ignition noise. Ag
ain
> to prevent shielded wire from becoming a capacitive bridge into the DC po
wer
> wires for the radios it is normally only shield grounded at the source
> (close to the generator) end.
>
>
> With some of these systems you may actually come across a situation where
> an extra ground will protect a system... just don=92t ask anyone to expl
ain
> why.
>
>
> Some sources of EMI and there are a lot more than I can list here
>
>
> Fouled spark plugs, Worn crystallized plug wires, worn capacitors in the
> alternator, Poor grounding on an ECU, Poor grounding of the engine case t
o
> the electrical circuit, Poorly grounded strobe system, Poor grounding of
the
> radio stack, poor grounding of the braid at the antenna end of feed coax.
> Gee it=92s surprising how many times grounding comes up. Rahter than hav
ing
> added grounds going willy-nilly I think it=92s better to make sure the on
es
> installed and which worked for sometimes years are all clean. To clean
> these grounds you must disconnect them, clean the contact areas and reatt
ach
> them. Looking at a connection doesn=92t count.
>
>
> While you are at it why not make a diagram of the wiring of your plane.
> Just a simple block diagram will do. Show the colours of the wires, the
> connection plugs and where all the grounds are. Such a diagram will make
> future troubleshooting a whole lot easier both for yourself and future
> owners of your plane. Put all your diagrams in your aircraft (log) book
so
> you can find it easily.
>
>
> Noel
>
>
> *From:* owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Mark
> Hubelbank
> *Sent:* September 21, 2010 10:47 AM
> *To:* jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* JabiruEngine-List: Shielded wiring for P leads
>
>
> To all working with noise in aircraft wiring. I have been following the
> listings on the subject of shielding and as a design engineer, I have one
> thing to add (without the intent of generating any controversy).
>
> This may help in cases where noise is comming from the ignition "P" leads
> which run from the mags to the ignition key switch. There is a lot of tal
k
> on grounding one end vers both ends of a shield. When one is working with
a
> RF situation, one needs to ground both ends otherwise the shield will sim
ple
> pick up the signal from the center conductor and act as an antenna itself
.
> After all an antenna at VHF frequencies is simply a short wire connected
at
> one end. In the case of the "P" leads, you may be radiating RF energy pic
ked
> up from the mags into the instrument panel area, exactly where you really
> don't want it.
>
> Thus when trying to prevent RF from "leaking" out, one needs to ground th
e
> shield at both ends. This is more problematic in a composite aircraft and
> other measures may be needed at the instrument panel end if there is noth
ing
> to ground to. In those cases, some other RF tricks may be required. I hav
e
> not actually had to "de-noise" such an installation but I would first try
a
> combination of terminations (50 ohm carbon resistor in series with 0.001
uf
> ceramic cap - very short leads from shield to center conductor) and ferr
ite
> suppressors on the wire. Also note that by using wire that has high loss
at
> VHF some of the conducted interference is attenuated. Typically non-coax
> shielded wire (MIL-C-27500) is in this class.
>
> Note that the connect shield at one end logic was originated to deal with
> low frequency issues like ground loops. An even better solution in some o
f
> those cases is to float the device at one end. For example for a micropho
ne
> lead, one can use insulating washers to separate the jack from the airfra
me
> and then use the shield to provide the return path. This is the best way
to
> go when possible. All this is mentioned to various degrees in the literat
ure
> but I thought it does not hurt to give the example.
>
> --
>
> Mark Hubelbank
>
> NorthEast Monitoring
>
> 2 Clock Tower Place
>
> Suite 555
>
> Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA
>
> mhubel@nemon.com
>
> 978-443-3955
>
> *
>
===========
>
===========
===========
===========
>
> *
>
>
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