---------------------------------------------------------- JabiruEngine-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/08/10: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:48 AM - Re: [jabiruengines] Re: Puzzling oil pressure (James, Clive R) 2. 04:43 PM - Icom A24 and Jabiru 2200A compatabiltiy issue (DanM) 3. 04:55 PM - Re: Icom A24 and Jabiru 2200A compatabiltiy issue (IFLYSMODEL@aol.com) 4. 05:14 PM - Re: Icom A24 and Jabiru 2200A compatabiltiy issue (JOSEPH MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS) 5. 05:14 PM - Re: Icom A24 and Jabiru 2200A compatabiltiy issue (Dieter Hagedorn) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:26 AM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: RE: [jabiruengines] Re: Puzzling oil pressure From: "James, Clive R" I did a test on the relief valve today, injecting air pressure through the 'normal' vdo sender position. The valve lifted at 5.2 bar. No sure what that tells me apart from the normal max of 4.5 bar on the VDO shouldn't lift it which is pretty much what folk had suggested and I thought. I now have the two readings (pump discharge and oil gallery) and they absolutely make sense when compared to each other and when looking at the temperatures. Next step is to work backwards (removing cooler) but as I said I don't really want to do that while the oil pressure is good and I can progress the flight testing of the aircraft. So work in progress...but not for now. Interested in any other issues folk have though as I don't yet think we have the full picture. Back to work for next few weeks. Regards, Clive ________________________________ From: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kai_lyche Sent: 08 November 2010 07:52 Subject: [jabiruengines] Re: Puzzling oil pressure Clive, I'm really scratching my head here; I think Roger could have nailed it. There is a strong case for the problem beiing outside the engine, in the filter-luboil cooler cirquit. Let's face it: the relief valve is not seeing the pressure inside the engine, it is there to prevent the filter from blowing off its threads should it become clogged or whatever. So everything you do from the cooler adapter under the filter, the filter itself, the pipes to the oil cooler and the oil cooler itself (and in my case an oil thermostat between adapter and cooler), will have an influence on the pressure and flow characteristics for relief valve operation. Maybe we should look in the direction: what can cause excessive pressure outside the engine for the relief valve to open? Kai --- In jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com , "James, Clive R" wrote: > > I too thought about the relief valve; was the dynamics of the pump > pressure pulses making it open at a lower pressure than normal? > Was it's characteristics such that a really lower pressure was needed > for it to re seat after it had lifted? (sort of dead band, hysteresis). > I did see the pressure drop right to zero though (whilst flying) and I > thought it unlikely that it would not re-seat before that or at least > the system produce some backpressure that could be read on the VDO. > > Cavitation is mentioned by a few folk, not sure if that is what we are > seeing here, a Google of the definition will show it's a complex > phenomena..... > As I understand it to have cavitation we need to see a significant > pressure drop. Some restriction on the suction side?. Discounting that > is there a point in the pumping cycle where the pump develops > significantly higher pressure than ends up in the output line? > > I once had a challenging problem with a relief valve opening > significantly below it's set pressure. Statically if popped when it > should but dynamically it opened 20% below it's set pressure, this was > while in service preventing a lot of money flowing down a pipe. It was a > different fluid, the term was explained as the coke bottle effect, fluid > passing across the valve base. The dynamics of the situation exciting > the fluid and so lifting the valve early. > > Nothing at all like we have with our oil pumps but we do have a very > dynamic situation with the pump pressure pulses. Ironically while > surfing the 'gerotor' type pump that we have on our Jab engine one > advantage it is listed as being their smooth pumping action.....not at > all what I was seeing on a mechanical pressure gauge screwed into the > engine. The needle went into a blur. There are some very sharp edges > inside the pump. > > It would be really nice of Jabiru did some research on the issue. Though > I've never seen them do anything they haven't had to do and I suppose > this issue isn't going to bother them. We do know that pressure pulsing > was destroying oil coolers some time ago and the profile of the pump > plate was changed. > > I'd like to know what we are seeing in the way of pressure fluctuations > in the 3300 lube oil system as I feel it is a contributory factor for > something that doesn't make any sense to me. > > Regards, Clive > 3300 #1460 > 2200 #594 > > > > ________________________________ > > From: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bill Evans > Sent: 07 November 2010 01:48 > To: Jabiru Group > Subject: [jabiruengines] Puzzling oil pressure > > > > > > > > > > > > I've had the same issue with my Jab 2200a in a Sonerai IILS. > > Without the oil cooler installed the pressure behaves normally, i.e. the > > oil pressure increases in proportion to RPM to say 45 psi. Once an oil > cooler is installed the pressure rises with rpm to say 2600 and levels > off at maybe 60 psi then falls to 40 psi by 3000 rpm. > > Oh yes, I have two 1/16 thick washers under the oil pressure relief > valve spring. These washers increase oil pressure by 10 psi each. > > I accomplished the oil pump plate mod which is shown in the 3300 engines > > to prevent cavitation, but I didn't have cavitation without the oil > cooler so why after. I installed the modified one because my jap rep > recommended it. > > Also I flew say 50 hours with the original 2200a oil cooler adapter > plate. It had the bypass hole that allowed some oil (20%) directly to > the filter while the rest of the oil was cooled. > > For that next 100 hours I've flown with the new adapter plate. With this > > plate all engine oil goes from the pump to the oil cooler then is > filtered then to the oil galleries and bearings. Apart from the fact > that the new adapter plate does not have any oil leaks, I don't notice > any difference. The pressures and temperatures remain the same. Well > maybe the oil is 5 degrees F cooler. > > For all the above reasons I am as sure as I can be it is not an > indication squawk. I've replaced 4 oil pressure transmitters in 4 years, > > most due to vibration I think. Changing them changed nothing, except to > reduce leaks. > > All of this is to answer the question why does the pressure fall above > say 2500 rpm? When everything else is eliminated what is left is the > reason. The oil is under pressure from the pump and flows through quite > large passages (3/4") to and from the filter. > > With the oil cooler installed it's different. The passage and fittings > and hoses to the oil cooler are say 3/8". Those passages are able to > flow a certain amount of oil (say 40 psi) to the oil cooler then the > engine. So the oil pressure in the pump area increases until it reaches > the limit (say 60 psi) of the Oil Pressure regulator, then the spring is > > compressed , opening the valve, thus pressure drops to say 40 psi. As > long as the RPM remains high the relief valve will be open and the > pressure reduced. For some reason the relief valve /functions/ like a > poppet valve. When it opens, it pops open and stays open until there is > a significant drop in pressure. In otherwords it isn't cracked open and > sizzling so to speak. > > Now I was having noticeable rocker arm bushing wear so I increased the > oil pressure by 20 psi (2 washers) as an easy way to ensure I have > adequate oil flow to the rockers, heads and valves. Oil's not a good > coolant but I'll take what I can get. Since I did that I have not found > an metal in the rocker arm boxes. (Note: I also drilled holes in the > rocker arm pivots near the oil tubes to direct some of that oil to the > rocker arms.) Together these things seem to have worked. > > So you ask if you know why the oil pressure fluctuates ( restricted > port, fitting and hose size) why don't you just drill out the plate or > make more holes, install larger fittings and hoses? > > The adapter plate is fairly compact in size. It is designed such that it > > does not lend itself to Modifications, nor do I know what the result or > other consequence might be. Just drilling a bigger port hole does not > mean that the oil pressure will increase in proportion to the RPM. > Finally I expect that Jabiru put some engineering into that adapter > plate. It is that size for sound reasons. Even though I don't know what > they are, I'm unwilling to second guess Jabiru on this issue. There you > have it all. > Bill > 2200a > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > __._,_.___ Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (4) Recent Activity: * New Members 6 * New Files 3 Visit Your Group MARKETPLACE Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now. ________________________________ Get great advice about dogs and cats. Visit the Dog & Cat Answers Center. ________________________________ Hobbies & Activities Zone: Find others who share your passions! Explore new interests. Yahoo! Groups Switch to: Text-Only , Daily Digest * Unsubscribe * Terms of Use .. __,_._,___ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:43:05 PM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Icom A24 and Jabiru 2200A compatabiltiy issue From: "DanM" I've been have interference problem with my hand held Icom A24 to the point that is almost useless. I called Jim over at Jabiru Pacific and he informed me that hand held radios can't be used with the Jab engines and there is no fix other than installing a good panel mounted radio. Apparently its an issue with the mags I think. My question is has anybody else experienced this problem? The radio works well with engine not running. but once running the receive and transmits are full static and garbled. I have the radio mounted to the panel with a external antenna. Anybody got any ideas. -------- Dan Mc Intyre Kitfox IV Jabiru 2200 SN 1311 , 51 hours Sensenich 62x46 N443DM Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=318622#318622 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:12 PM PST US From: IFLYSMODEL@aol.com Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Icom A24 and Jabiru 2200A compatabiltiy issue Hey Dan: I had to use my ICOM hand held for a trip to TN (from central FL) and back. I noticed the same problem, and was able to solve it by setting the squelch up to 8 and then I did not notice so much noise when I spoke to a fairly close stations. I kept the hand held hooked up to my head set. I do not think I could have used it without the head set. Lynn Nelsen Lightning # 60 Jabiru 3300 In a message dated 11/8/2010 7:43:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, danm@powerdesignelectric.com writes: --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "DanM" I've been have interference problem with my hand held Icom A24 to the point that is almost useless. I called Jim over at Jabiru Pacific and he informed me that hand held radios can't be used with the Jab engines and there is no fix other than installing a good panel mounted radio. Apparently its an issue with the mags I think. My question is has anybody else experienced this problem? The radio works well with engine not running. but once running the receive and transmits are full static and garbled. I have the radio mounted to the panel with a external antenna. Anybody got any ideas. -------- Dan Mc Intyre Kitfox IV Jabiru 2200 SN 1311 , 51 hours Sensenich 62x46 N443DM Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=318622#318622 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:04 PM PST US From: "JOSEPH MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS" Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Icom A24 and Jabiru 2200A compatabiltiy issue Dan, I have used my ICOM A22 handheld radio recently in my Lightning with Jabiru 3300 because my panel radios have been sent back to Garmin for a service bulletin. Although I can transmit and receive clearly, there is a good bit of static noise all the time. So it's useable but annoying. Linda Mathias ----- Original Message ----- From: "DanM" Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 7:40 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Icom A24 and Jabiru 2200A compatabiltiy issue > > > I've been have interference problem with my hand held Icom A24 to the > point that is almost useless. I called Jim over at Jabiru Pacific and he > informed me that hand held radios can't be used with the Jab engines and > there is no fix other than installing a good panel mounted radio. > Apparently its an issue with the mags I think. My question is has anybody > else experienced this problem? The radio works well with engine not > running. but once running the receive and transmits are full static and > garbled. I have the radio mounted to the panel with a external antenna. > Anybody got any ideas. > > -------- > Dan Mc Intyre > Kitfox IV > Jabiru 2200 SN 1311 , 51 hours > Sensenich 62x46 > N443DM > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=318622#318622 > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:06 PM PST US From: "Dieter Hagedorn" Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Icom A24 and Jabiru 2200A compatabiltiy issue Dan, I also have a handheld, a Icom A20, but don't have any problem with interference. I have it installed between the seats and also connected to the external antennae up where the cabin meets the flap, far away from elctric instruments and coils. Thus the wing and fuselage structure form a big base for the antennae. I also have the radio connected to the Commtronics Intercom which is connected directly to the battery. I hope this helps. Regards Dieter ----- Original Message ----- From: "DanM" Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 6:40 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Icom A24 and Jabiru 2200A compatabiltiy issue > > > I've been have interference problem with my hand held Icom A24 to the > point that is almost useless. I called Jim over at Jabiru Pacific and he > informed me that hand held radios can't be used with the Jab engines and > there is no fix other than installing a good panel mounted radio. > Apparently its an issue with the mags I think. My question is has anybody > else experienced this problem? The radio works well with engine not > running. but once running the receive and transmits are full static and > garbled. I have the radio mounted to the panel with a external antenna. > Anybody got any ideas. > > -------- > Dan Mc Intyre > Kitfox IV > Jabiru 2200 SN 1311 , 51 hours > Sensenich 62x46 > N443DM > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=318622#318622 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message jabiruengine-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/JabiruEngine-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/jabiruengine-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/jabiruengine-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.