Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:50 AM - Re: Engine Shut Down (Noel Loveys)
2. 09:04 AM - Re: Engine Shut Down (Noel Loveys)
3. 11:44 AM - Re: Engine Shut Down (Noel Loveys)
4. 01:27 PM - Re: Engine Shut Down (Martin Hone)
5. 01:44 PM - Re: Engine Shut Down (BobsV35B@aol.com)
6. 01:44 PM - Re: Engine Shut Down (FLYaDIVE)
7. 01:55 PM - Re: Engine Shut Down (FLYaDIVE)
8. 02:06 PM - Re: Engine Shut Down (Martin Hone)
9. 03:26 PM - Re: Engine Shut Down (BobsV35B@aol.com)
10. 06:51 PM - Re: Engine Shut Down (Martin Hone)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Engine Shut Down |
Ok but you did ask about fuel injected engines..
With non-injected engines they will "ping" just about all the time but you
will only be able to notice it when the rpm and load are in specific
quantities. For instance a friend of mine many years ago had a Ford 500
with the 390 4bbl., dual low resistance exhausts and mo doubt a few other
goodies on it. It had a real problem for we idiot speed demons, it
backfired like a mule after 90 mph. That was long before it really got
producing what it could. After trying everything to stop the backfiring my
friend finally got rid of the car. Several years later the Royal
Newfoundland Constabulary had the same problem with a factory built hotrod
they got from GM. The Constab, had their own fuel supply so they knew it
was high octane. GM technicians from the factory spent two weeks working on
the car until they had exhausted ( pardon the pun) every possibility. One
of the technicians then sent a sample of the fuel back to GM for a flash
test.... It was low-low octane. The Constabulary then decided to test all
the high octane tanks in the area, of some fifty tanks tested only one
actually had high octane fuel. The Constabulary then charged their test lab
with fixing octane numbers and sent notification to all the oil companies
servicing the province with warning that their fuel would be tested on a
regular basis. The reply they got form their supplier was that they would
no longer do octane testing for the Constabulary.
The reason conventionally aspirated direct drive aircraft engines get away,
most of the time, with lower octane fuel is they are specifically tuned to
operate at high throttle settings for extended periods of time. They are
also designed to mostly work at lower rpm with a much flatter torque curve
than a conventional auto engine. Of course those engines are only certified
to use specific fuels so the question is a bit mute. They are also
generally high displacement for the power they deliver. The interesting
thing with the big radials is they develop so much heat they actually change
shape in different phases of flight. Descent is a particularly touchy time
as it is dangerous to allow the engine to cool too much as you may need the
power on short notice and drawing power form a cold engine is a recipe for
not too much fun.
There are also many large air-cooled gear driven radial engines which rev to
the territory of the 912 and it was not uncommon for them to blow jugs on
flights even with the certified fuels. In fact there used to be a running
joke that you could always tell the mechanic at an airport because he was
the one who drove the biggest, most expensive or fastest car. He made his
money replacing cylinders on corn cob radials. ;->
Back from the diversion.... The engines we use (912 UL etc.) are designed
to operate efficiently in the extended rpm envelope using fuels of lower
octane. Those engines which use higher compression ratios and/or turbo
charging ( 914 etc.) are designed to operate on higher octane no lead auto
fuels. This is great as long as such fuels are available. The problem we
are now coming into is the extended use of ethanol, both as an oxidizer and
an octane booster... don't start me on that one!
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: November 21, 2010 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Engine Shut Down
Noel:
So how do you explain it for NON-Fuel Injected engines?
Or engines WITHOUT anti-knock equipment?
And even those fuel injected engine WITHOUT electric injectors?
Remember... I said it was a LOADED QUESTION :-)
Barry
On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Barry:
I think you answered your own question. The fuel injectors are electrically
operated. They spray a fine mist of fuel into the cylinders just before the
spark is given. Spraying cold fuel into the cylinder at that time causes
the cylinder to cool a little ( may or may not be appreciable ) but also it
means there isn't any fuel there detonate. Anti knock detectors will also
adjust the timing of the fuel injection to prevent knocking.
Noel
Loaded Question: If the flash point of gas is so low, below that of
internal CHT why do we not Pre-Ignition all the time?
Barry
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM, <zeprep251@aol.com> wrote:
Mike,
If you have a mixture control on your carburetor you could shut it off that
way.But if you want to kill it by turning off the fuel selector,be prepared
to wait for a couple minutes for the fuel bowl on the Bing to run dry.
General aviation engines run a couple hundred degrees higher cylinder head
temps and would run on with out spark ignition,you had to starve it of fuel
to kill it.
G.Aman Jabiru 2200A 600 hrs
-----Original Message-----
From: MHerder <michaelherder@beckgroup.com>
Sent: Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:44 pm
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Engine Shut Down
<michaelherder@beckgroup.com>
Manual on my 3300 says just turn the ignition off to shut it down... Any
reason
why we should or shouldn't be shutting it off buy shutting off the fuel?
--------
One Rivet at a Time!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319979#319979
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Engine Shut Down |
There's lots of factors that come into play here... one of them is as long
as the engine is running the prop is cooling the engine. Stop the prop and
the engine will in short order heat soak if there is no air passing over the
cooling fins. Another is the amount of cooling by the infusion of cool fuel
soaked air on every intake stroke. Aircraft engines tend to be large
displacement per HP and slower revving giving more time for heat dissipation
and more fuel air mix to cool the interior of the cylinders.... If you care
to rev them high enough they will no doubt always detonate of backfire. BTW
the walls of air-cooled aircraft engine cylinders are not nearly so massive
as other engines so they require a lot less to cool them. Remembering the
thin walls of the jugs is a good reason not to over rev or intentionally
heat soak your expen$ive engine.
As you say the question is loaded... loading is just another factor in
whether or not an engine will detonate. If you can unload the engine you
may find the detonation will disappear. Now if you can tell me how to
unload and engine while climbing ;-)
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: November 21, 2010 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Engine Shut Down
The autoignition temp of gasoline is just below 500 deg., below that it
needs an ignition source. So maybe the answer is that flash point is not
autoignition temp.
Noel
Loaded Question: If the flash point of gas is so low, below that of
internal CHT why do we not Pre-Ignition all the time?
Barry
Message 3
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| Subject: | Engine Shut Down |
Sorry Barry but I can't help myself from nit picking ;-)
The chemistry of the fuel increases or decreases the flash point... Pressure
increases the temperature inside the cylinder directly with the pressure so
increasing pressure brings the temperature of the mix closer to the flash
point. High octane fuels have a higher flash temperature so are slightly
less affected by increase in pressure.
Ethanol has a RON of 116 so to make it burn efficiently auto manufacturers
increased the CR ( read pressure in the engine ) and played with the
injection mapping and spark timing and then called the whole mess a flex
fuel engine. Problem is it will run, after a fashion, on lower octane gas
but not nearly as efficiently as it will on higher octane. For those of us
stranded with only E-XX fuels (I'm not) It's not a bad idea but if you can
still get gas it won't run as efficiently as one of the older engines.
Noel
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: November 22, 2010 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Engine Shut Down
BINGO DOUG - BINGO!
Go to the head of the class ;-)
Pressure increases the flash point.
Barry
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Shut Down |
Sorry, I know this is off topic, but it is an interesting discussion. I
have to ask you Noel, what aircooled gear-driven radials run at 912 speeds,
given the 912 produces max torque around 4800 rpm ? :-)
Martin
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 2:45 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Ok but you did ask about fuel injected engines..
>
>
> With non-injected engines they will =93ping=94 just about all the time bu
t you
> will only be able to notice it when the rpm and load are in specific
> quantities. For instance a friend of mine many years ago had a Ford 500
> with the 390 4bbl., dual low resistance exhausts and mo doubt a few other
> goodies on it. It had a real problem for we idiot speed demons, it
> backfired like a mule after 90 mph. That was long before it really got
> producing what it could. After trying everything to stop the backfiring
my
> friend finally got rid of the car. Several years later the Royal
> Newfoundland Constabulary had the same problem with a factory built hotro
d
> they got from GM. The Constab, had their own fuel supply so they knew it
> was high octane. GM technicians from the factory spent two weeks working
on
> the car until they had exhausted ( pardon the pun) every possibility. On
e
> of the technicians then sent a sample of the fuel back to GM for a flash
> test.... It was low-low octane. The Constabulary then decided to test a
ll
> the high octane tanks in the area, of some fifty tanks tested only one
> actually had high octane fuel. The Constabulary then charged their test
lab
> with fixing octane numbers and sent notification to all the oil companies
> servicing the province with warning that their fuel would be tested on a
> regular basis. The reply they got form their supplier was that they woul
d
> no longer do octane testing for the Constabulary.
>
>
> The reason conventionally aspirated direct drive aircraft engines get awa
y,
> most of the time, with lower octane fuel is they are specifically tuned t
o
> operate at high throttle settings for extended periods of time. They are
> also designed to mostly work at lower rpm with a much flatter torque curv
e
> than a conventional auto engine. Of course those engines are only certif
ied
> to use specific fuels so the question is a bit mute. They are also
> generally high displacement for the power they deliver. The interesting
> thing with the big radials is they develop so much heat they actually cha
nge
> shape in different phases of flight. Descent is a particularly touchy ti
me
> as it is dangerous to allow the engine to cool too much as you may need t
he
> power on short notice and drawing power form a cold engine is a recipe fo
r
> not too much fun.
>
>
> There are also many large air-cooled gear driven radial engines which rev
> to the territory of the 912 and it was not uncommon for them to blow jugs
on
> flights even with the certified fuels. In fact there used to be a runnin
g
> joke that you could always tell the mechanic at an airport because he was
> the one who drove the biggest, most expensive or fastest car. He made hi
s
> money replacing cylinders on corn cob radials. ;->
>
>
> Back from the diversion.... The engines we use (912 UL etc.) are designe
d
> to operate efficiently in the extended rpm envelope using fuels of lower
> octane. Those engines which use higher compression ratios and/or turbo
> charging ( 914 etc.) are designed to operate on higher octane no lead aut
o
> fuels. This is great as long as such fuels are available. The problem
we
> are now coming into is the extended use of ethanol, both as an oxidizer a
nd
> an octane booster... don=92t start me on that one!
>
>
> Noel
>
>
> *From:* owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE
> *Sent:* November 21, 2010 8:08 PM
> *To:* jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: JabiruEngine-List: Engine Shut Down
>
>
> Noel:
>
>
> So how do you explain it for NON-Fuel Injected engines?
>
> Or engines WITHOUT anti-knock equipment?
>
> And even those fuel injected engine WITHOUT electric injectors?
>
>
> Remember... I said it was a LOADED QUESTION :-)
>
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote
:
>
> Barry:
>
>
> I think you answered your own question. The fuel injectors are
> electrically operated. They spray a fine mist of fuel into the cylinders
> just before the spark is given. Spraying cold fuel into the cylinder at
> that time causes the cylinder to cool a little ( may or may not be
> appreciable ) but also it means there isn=92t any fuel there detonate.
Anti
> knock detectors will also adjust the timing of the fuel injection to prev
ent
> knocking.
>
>
> Noel
>
>
> Loaded Question: If the flash point of gas is so low, below that of
> internal CHT why do we not Pre-Ignition all the time?
>
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM, <zeprep251@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Mike,
> If you have a mixture control on your carburetor you could shut it off th
at
> way.But if you want to kill it by turning off the fuel selector,be prepar
ed
> to wait for a couple minutes for the fuel bowl on the Bing to run dry.
> General aviation engines run a couple hundred degrees higher cylinder hea
d
> temps and would run on with out spark ignition,you had to starve it of fu
el
> to kill it.
> G.Aman Jabiru 2200A 600 hrs
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: MHerder <michaelherder@beckgroup.com>
> To: jabiruengine-list <jabiruengine-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:44 pm
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Engine Shut Down
>
up.com>
>
>
> Manual on my 3300 says just turn the ignition off to shut it down... Any
reason
>
>
> why we should or shouldn't be shutting it off buy shutting off the fuel?
>
>
> --------
>
>
> One Rivet at a Time!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319979#319979
>
>
> ==========
>
>
> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
> " target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>
>
> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>
>
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
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>
>
> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-Li
st
>
>
> ==========
>
>
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>
>
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>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *_blank">www.aeroelectric.com*
>
> *.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com*
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ist*
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> *tp://forums.matronics.com*
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
>
> *www.aeroelectric.com*
>
> *www.buildersbooks.com*
>
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> * *
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>
> *.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com*
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ist*
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> **
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>
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>
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>
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Shut Down |
Good Afternoon Martin,
What is the stroke on the 912? Isn't it true that piston speed, not RPM,
is
what we must deal with?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 11/23/2010 3:28:16 P.M. Central Standard Time,
aerobiz1@gmail.com writes:
Sorry, I know this is off topic, but it is an interesting discussion. I
have to ask you Noel, what aircooled gear-driven radials run at 912 speed
s,
given the 912 produces max torque around 4800 rpm ? :-)
Martin
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 2:45 AM, Noel Loveys <_noelloveys@yahoo.ca_
(mailto:noelloveys@yahoo.ca) > wrote:
Ok but you did ask about fuel injected engines..
With non-injected engines they will =9Cping=9D just about all
the time but
you will only be able to notice it when the rpm and load are in specific
quantities. For instance a friend of mine many years ago had a Ford 500
with
the 390 4bbl., dual low resistance exhausts and mo doubt a few other good
ies
on it. It had a real problem for we idiot speed demons, it backfired lik
e
a mule after 90 mph. That was long before it really got producing what
it
could. After trying everything to stop the backfiring my friend finally
got rid of the car. Several years later the Royal Newfoundland Constabul
ary
had the same problem with a factory built hotrod they got from GM. The
Constab, had their own fuel supply so they knew it was high octane. GM
technicians from the factory spent two weeks working on the car until they
had
exhausted ( pardon the pun) every possibility. One of the technicians th
en
sent a sample of the fuel back to GM for a flash test.... It was low-low
octane. The Constabulary then decided to test all the high octane tanks
in
the area, of some fifty tanks tested only one actually had high octane
fuel. The Constabulary then charged their test lab with fixing octane nu
mbers
and sent notification to all the oil companies servicing the province wit
h
warning that their fuel would be tested on a regular basis. The reply
they got form their supplier was that they would no longer do octane test
ing
for the Constabulary.
The reason conventionally aspirated direct drive aircraft engines get
away, most of the time, with lower octane fuel is they are specifically
tuned
to operate at high throttle settings for extended periods of time. They
are
also designed to mostly work at lower rpm with a much flatter torque curv
e
than a conventional auto engine. Of course those engines are only
certified to use specific fuels so the question is a bit mute. They are
also
generally high displacement for the power they deliver. The interesting
thing with the big radials is they develop so much heat they actually cha
nge
shape in different phases of flight. Descent is a particularly touchy ti
me
as it is dangerous to allow the engine to cool too much as you may need
the
power on short notice and drawing power form a cold engine is a recipe fo
r
not too much fun.
There are also many large air-cooled gear driven radial engines which rev
to the territory of the 912 and it was not uncommon for them to blow jugs
on flights even with the certified fuels. In fact there used to be a
running joke that you could always tell the mechanic at an airport becaus
e he was
the one who drove the biggest, most expensive or fastest car. He made hi
s
money replacing cylinders on corn cob radials. ;->
Back from the diversion.... The engines we use (912 UL etc.) are designe
d
to operate efficiently in the extended rpm envelope using fuels of lower
octane. Those engines which use higher compression ratios and/or turbo
charging ( 914 etc.) are designed to operate on higher octane no lead aut
o
fuels. This is great as long as such fuels are available. The problem
we
are now coming into is the extended use of ethanol, both as an oxidizer
and
an octane booster... don=99t start me on that one!
Noel
From: _owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com_
(mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com)
[mailto:_owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-jabir
uengine-list-server@matronics.com) ] On
Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: November 21, 2010 8:08 PM
(mailto:jabiruengine-list@matronics.com)
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Engine Shut Down
Noel:
So how do you explain it for NON-Fuel Injected engines?
Or engines WITHOUT anti-knock equipment?
And even those fuel injected engine WITHOUT electric injectors?
Remember... I said it was a LOADED QUESTION :-)
Barry
On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Noel Loveys <_noelloveys@yahoo.ca_
(mailto:noelloveys@yahoo.ca) > wrote:
Barry:
I think you answered your own question. The fuel injectors are
electrically operated. They spray a fine mist of fuel into the cylinders
just before
the spark is given. Spraying cold fuel into the cylinder at that time
causes the cylinder to cool a little ( may or may not be appreciable )
but
also it means there isn=99t any fuel there detonate. Anti knock de
tectors
will also adjust the timing of the fuel injection to prevent knocking.
Noel
Loaded Question: If the flash point of gas is so low, below that of
internal CHT why do we not Pre-Ignition all the time?
Barry
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM, <_zeprep251@aol.com_
(mailto:zeprep251@aol.com) > wrote:
Mike,
If you have a mixture control on your carburetor you could shut it off
that way.But if you want to kill it by turning off the fuel selector,be
prepared to wait for a couple minutes for the fuel bowl on the Bing to ru
n dry.
General aviation engines run a couple hundred degrees higher cylinder head
temps and would run on with out spark ignition,you had to starve it of fue
l
to kill it.
G.Aman Jabiru 2200A 600 hrs
-----Original Message-----
From: MHerder <_michaelherder@beckgroup.com_
(mailto:michaelherder@beckgroup.com) >
(mailto:jabiruengine-list@matronics.com) >
Sent: Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:44 pm
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Engine Shut Down
<_michaelherder@beckgroup.com_ (mailto:michaelherder@beckgroup.com) >
Manual on my 3300 says just turn the ignition off to shut it down... Any
reason
why we should or shouldn't be shutting it off buy shutting off the fuel?
--------
One Rivet at a Time!
Read this topic online here:
_http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319979#319979_
(http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319979#319979)
_blank">_www.aeroelectric.com_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/)
" target="_blank">_www.buildersbooks.com_ (http://www.buildersbooks.com/
)
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ist" target="_blank">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-Li
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ist" target="_blank">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-Li
st_
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List)
tp://_forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
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_blank">_www.aeroelectric.com_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/)
.com" target="_blank">_www.buildersbooks.com_
(http://www.buildersbooks.com/)
="_blank">_www.homebuilthelp.com_ (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/)
_blank">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
ist" target="_blank">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-Li
st_
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List)
tp://_forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
_www.aeroelectric.com_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/)
_www.buildersbooks.com_ (http://www.buildersbooks.com/)
_www.homebuilthelp.com_ (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/)
_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
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(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List)
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_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com ="_blank">www.homebuilthel
p.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ist"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List tp:
//forums.matronics.com
========================
============
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(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
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========================
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Shut Down |
Noel:
"Ok but you did ask about fuel injected engines.." <---Noel
I do not believe I did. I went through my emails and I could not find
anything where I asked about an injected engine.
If you have such an email My Bad.
But, your injected answer only matched one of the criteria to answer the
question. :-)
Barry
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Ok but you did ask about fuel injected engines..
>
>
> With non-injected engines they will =93ping=94 just about all the time bu
t you
> will only be able to notice it when the rpm and load are in specific
> quantities. For instance a friend of mine many years ago had a Ford 500
> with the 390 4bbl., dual low resistance exhausts and mo doubt a few other
> goodies on it. It had a real problem for we idiot speed demons, it
> backfired like a mule after 90 mph. That was long before it really got
> producing what it could. After trying everything to stop the backfiring
my
> friend finally got rid of the car. Several years later the Royal
> Newfoundland Constabulary had the same problem with a factory built hotro
d
> they got from GM. The Constab, had their own fuel supply so they knew it
> was high octane. GM technicians from the factory spent two weeks working
on
> the car until they had exhausted ( pardon the pun) every possibility. On
e
> of the technicians then sent a sample of the fuel back to GM for a flash
> test.... It was low-low octane. The Constabulary then decided to test a
ll
> the high octane tanks in the area, of some fifty tanks tested only one
> actually had high octane fuel. The Constabulary then charged their test
lab
> with fixing octane numbers and sent notification to all the oil companies
> servicing the province with warning that their fuel would be tested on a
> regular basis. The reply they got form their supplier was that they woul
d
> no longer do octane testing for the Constabulary.
>
>
> The reason conventionally aspirated direct drive aircraft engines get awa
y,
> most of the time, with lower octane fuel is they are specifically tuned t
o
> operate at high throttle settings for extended periods of time. They are
> also designed to mostly work at lower rpm with a much flatter torque curv
e
> than a conventional auto engine. Of course those engines are only certif
ied
> to use specific fuels so the question is a bit mute. They are also
> generally high displacement for the power they deliver. The interesting
> thing with the big radials is they develop so much heat they actually cha
nge
> shape in different phases of flight. Descent is a particularly touchy ti
me
> as it is dangerous to allow the engine to cool too much as you may need t
he
> power on short notice and drawing power form a cold engine is a recipe fo
r
> not too much fun.
>
>
> There are also many large air-cooled gear driven radial engines which rev
> to the territory of the 912 and it was not uncommon for them to blow jugs
on
> flights even with the certified fuels. In fact there used to be a runnin
g
> joke that you could always tell the mechanic at an airport because he was
> the one who drove the biggest, most expensive or fastest car. He made hi
s
> money replacing cylinders on corn cob radials. ;->
>
>
> Back from the diversion.... The engines we use (912 UL etc.) are designe
d
> to operate efficiently in the extended rpm envelope using fuels of lower
> octane. Those engines which use higher compression ratios and/or turbo
> charging ( 914 etc.) are designed to operate on higher octane no lead aut
o
> fuels. This is great as long as such fuels are available. The problem
we
> are now coming into is the extended use of ethanol, both as an oxidizer a
nd
> an octane booster... don=92t start me on that one!
>
>
> Noel
>
>
> *From:* owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE
> *Sent:* November 21, 2010 8:08 PM
>
> *To:* jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: JabiruEngine-List: Engine Shut Down
>
>
> Noel:
>
>
> So how do you explain it for NON-Fuel Injected engines?
>
> Or engines WITHOUT anti-knock equipment?
>
> And even those fuel injected engine WITHOUT electric injectors?
>
>
> Remember... I said it was a LOADED QUESTION :-)
>
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote
:
>
> Barry:
>
>
> I think you answered your own question. The fuel injectors are
> electrically operated. They spray a fine mist of fuel into the cylinders
> just before the spark is given. Spraying cold fuel into the cylinder at
> that time causes the cylinder to cool a little ( may or may not be
> appreciable ) but also it means there isn=92t any fuel there detonate.
Anti
> knock detectors will also adjust the timing of the fuel injection to prev
ent
> knocking.
>
>
> Noel
>
>
> Loaded Question: If the flash point of gas is so low, below that of
> internal CHT why do we not Pre-Ignition all the time?
>
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM, <zeprep251@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Mike,
> If you have a mixture control on your carburetor you could shut it off th
at
> way.But if you want to kill it by turning off the fuel selector,be prepar
ed
> to wait for a couple minutes for the fuel bowl on the Bing to run dry.
> General aviation engines run a couple hundred degrees higher cylinder hea
d
> temps and would run on with out spark ignition,you had to starve it of fu
el
> to kill it.
> G.Aman Jabiru 2200A 600 hrs
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: MHerder <michaelherder@beckgroup.com>
> To: jabiruengine-list <jabiruengine-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:44 pm
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Engine Shut Down
>
up.com>
>
>
> Manual on my 3300 says just turn the ignition off to shut it down... Any
reason
>
>
> why we should or shouldn't be shutting it off buy shutting off the fuel?
>
>
> --------
>
>
> One Rivet at a Time!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319979#319979
>
>
> ==========
>
>
> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
> " target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>
>
> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>
>
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> ==========
>
>
> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-Li
st
>
>
> ==========
>
>
> tp://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> ==========
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *_blank">www.aeroelectric.com*
>
> *.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com*
>
> *="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com*
>
> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> *ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-L
ist*
>
> *tp://forums.matronics.com*
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
>
> *www.aeroelectric.com*
>
> *www.buildersbooks.com*
>
> *www.homebuilthelp.com*
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List*
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *_blank">www.aeroelectric.com*
>
> *.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com*
>
> *="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com*
>
> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> *ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-L
ist*
>
> *tp://forums.matronics.com*
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *www.aeroelectric.com*
>
> *www.buildersbooks.com*
>
> *www.homebuilthelp.com*
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
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>
> **
>
> **
>
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>
> *
>
===========
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>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Shut Down |
Sorry Noel - - -
What you say about the burn rate due to octane is true.
Higher Octane does burn SLOWER. That is the whole idea about Octane. Micr
o
to Mili-Seconds Slower.
But increased pressures in the cylinder reduce the point of when the gas
ignites. It is that simple. It is understandable with the hint I gave
about "What temperature does water boil?"
As Friday use to say: " Just the facts, just the facts", do not cloud the
simple physics with all the other gobbli-gook.
I'm not designing an engine or formulating a hydrocarbon fuel. All I'm
doing is having fun and letting people think on some of the simple physics
that takes place in our engines. Understanding some of the very basics
helps diagnose problems.
Da-deep, Da-deep, Da-deep, That's all, Noel ;-)
Happy Thanksgiving, Ya-All
What Non-Alcoholic - Thanksgiving Chemical makes OLDER people sleep?
I say OLDER because you can't prove it with my Nephews :-)
Barry
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Sorry Barry but I can=92t help myself from nit picking ;-)
>
>
> The chemistry of the fuel increases or decreases the flash point...
> Pressure increases the temperature inside the cylinder directly with the
> pressure so increasing pressure brings the temperature of the mix closer
to
> the flash point. High octane fuels have a higher flash temperature so ar
e
> slightly less affected by increase in pressure.
>
>
> Ethanol has a RON of 116 so to make it burn efficiently auto manufacturer
s
> increased the CR ( read pressure in the engine ) and played with the
> injection mapping and spark timing and then called the whole mess a flex
> fuel engine. Problem is it will run, after a fashion, on lower octane ga
s
> but not nearly as efficiently as it will on higher octane. For those of
us
> stranded with only E-XX fuels (I=92m not) It=92s not a bad idea but if y
ou can
> still get gas it won=92t run as efficiently as one of the older engines.
>
>
> Noel
>
> *From:* owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE
> *Sent:* November 22, 2010 2:27 PM
>
> *To:* jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: JabiruEngine-List: Engine Shut Down
>
>
> BINGO DOUG - BINGO!
>
>
> Go to the head of the class ;-)
>
>
> Pressure increases the flash point.
>
>
> Barry
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *www.aeroelectric.com*
>
> *www.buildersbooks.com*
>
> *www.homebuilthelp.com*
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> *
>
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===========
===========
============*
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Shut Down |
And good morning to you too Bob ( though it is 7.54 am here....)
>From memory the stroke of a Rotax 912 is 61.5 mm, but the comment was :
*" There are also many large air-cooled gear driven radial engines
which revto the territory of the 912"
*
I took it meaning RPM, not piston speed. I would guess that a big ol'
R3350 would have a piston speed possibly higher than the 912, but we are
getting way off topic ....
Best Rgds
Martin
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 7:32 AM, <BobsV35B@aol.com> wrote:
> Good Afternoon Martin,
>
> What is the stroke on the 912? Isn't it true that piston speed, not RPM,
is
> what we must deal with?
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
> In a message dated 11/23/2010 3:28:16 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> aerobiz1@gmail.com writes:
>
> Sorry, I know this is off topic, but it is an interesting discussion. I
> have to ask you Noel, what aircooled gear-driven radials run at 912
speeds,
> given the 912 produces max torque around 4800 rpm ? :-)
> Martin
>
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 2:45 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>
>> Ok but you did ask about fuel injected engines..
>>
>>
>>
>> With non-injected engines they will =93ping=94 just about all the time b
ut
you
>> will only be able to notice it when the rpm and load are in specific
>> quantities. For instance a friend of mine many years ago had a Ford 500
>> with the 390 4bbl., dual low resistance exhausts and mo doubt a few othe
r
>> goodies on it. It had a real problem for we idiot speed demons, it
>> backfired like a mule after 90 mph. That was long before it really got
>> producing what it could. After trying everything to stop the backfiring
my
>> friend finally got rid of the car. Several years later the Royal
>> Newfoundland Constabulary had the same problem with a factory built
hotrod
>> they got from GM. The Constab, had their own fuel supply so they knew i
t
>> was high octane. GM technicians from the factory spent two weeks workin
g
on
>> the car until they had exhausted ( pardon the pun) every possibility.
One
>> of the technicians then sent a sample of the fuel back to GM for a flash
>> test.... It was low-low octane. The Constabulary then decided to test
all
>> the high octane tanks in the area, of some fifty tanks tested only one
>> actually had high octane fuel. The Constabulary then charged their test
lab
>> with fixing octane numbers and sent notification to all the oil companie
s
>> servicing the province with warning that their fuel would be tested on a
>> regular basis. The reply they got form their supplier was that they
would
>> no longer do octane testing for the Constabulary.
>>
>>
>>
>> The reason conventionally aspirated direct drive aircraft engines get
>> away, most of the time, with lower octane fuel is they are specifically
>> tuned to operate at high throttle settings for extended periods of time.
>> They are also designed to mostly work at lower rpm with a much flatter
>> torque curve than a conventional auto engine. Of course those engines
are
>> only certified to use specific fuels so the question is a bit mute.
They
>> are also generally high displacement for the power they deliver. The
>> interesting thing with the big radials is they develop so much heat they
>> actually change shape in different phases of flight. Descent is a
>> particularly touchy time as it is dangerous to allow the engine to cool
too
>> much as you may need the power on short notice and drawing power form a
cold
>> engine is a recipe for not too much fun.
>>
>>
>>
>> There are also many large air-cooled gear driven radial engines which re
v
>> to the territory of the 912 and it was not uncommon for them to blow jug
s
on
>> flights even with the certified fuels. In fact there used to be a
running
>> joke that you could always tell the mechanic at an airport because he wa
s
>> the one who drove the biggest, most expensive or fastest car. He made
his
>> money replacing cylinders on corn cob radials. ;->
>>
>>
>>
>> Back from the diversion.... The engines we use (912 UL etc.) are
designed
>> to operate efficiently in the extended rpm envelope using fuels of lower
>> octane. Those engines which use higher compression ratios and/or turbo
>> charging ( 914 etc.) are designed to operate on higher octane no lead
auto
>> fuels. This is great as long as such fuels are available. The problem
we
>> are now coming into is the extended use of ethanol, both as an oxidizer
and
>> an octane booster... don=92t start me on that one!
>>
>>
>>
>> Noel
>>
>>
>>
>> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
FLYaDIVE
>> Sent: November 21, 2010 8:08 PM
>> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Engine Shut Down
>>
>>
>>
>> Noel:
>>
>>
>>
>> So how do you explain it for NON-Fuel Injected engines?
>>
>> Or engines WITHOUT anti-knock equipment?
>>
>> And even those fuel injected engine WITHOUT electric injectors?
>>
>>
>>
>> Remember... I said it was a LOADED QUESTION :-)
>>
>>
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
>>
>> Barry:
>>
>>
>>
>> I think you answered your own question. The fuel injectors are
>> electrically operated. They spray a fine mist of fuel into the cylinder
s
>> just before the spark is given. Spraying cold fuel into the cylinder at
>> that time causes the cylinder to cool a little ( may or may not be
>> appreciable ) but also it means there isn=92t any fuel there detonate.
Anti
>> knock detectors will also adjust the timing of the fuel injection to
prevent
>> knocking.
>>
>>
>>
>> Noel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Loaded Question: If the flash point of gas is so low, below that of
>> internal CHT why do we not Pre-Ignition all the time?
>>
>>
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM, <zeprep251@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> Mike,
>> If you have a mixture control on your carburetor you could shut it off
>> that way.But if you want to kill it by turning off the fuel selector,be
>> prepared to wait for a couple minutes for the fuel bowl on the Bing to
run
>> dry. General aviation engines run a couple hundred degrees higher
cylinder
>> head temps and would run on with out spark ignition,you had to starve it
of
>> fuel to kill it.
>> G.Aman Jabiru 2200A 600 hrs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: MHerder <michaelherder@beckgroup.com>
>> To: jabiruengine-list <jabiruengine-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:44 pm
>> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Engine Shut Down
>>
>> <michaelherder@beckgroup.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Manual on my 3300 says just turn the ignition off to shut it down... An
y
>> reason
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> why we should or shouldn't be shutting it off buy shutting off the fuel?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------
>>
>>
>>
>> One Rivet at a Time!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319979#319979
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> " target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-L
ist
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>
>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>
>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-L
ist
>>
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> www.aeroelectric.com
>>
>> www.buildersbooks.com
>>
>> www.homebuilthelp.com
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>
>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>
>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-L
ist
>>
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> www.aeroelectric.com
>>
>> www.buildersbooks.com
>>
>> www.homebuilthelp.com
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-L
ist
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> ========================
===========
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Shut Down |
Good Morning Martin,
Not too good on the conversions, but the wonderful Turbo Compound R-3350
turned as high as 2900 RPM in it's most powerful versions and the stroke
was
6.312 inches. Probably at least as high a piston speed as the Rotax if not
higher! Lets see. 2.54 mm per inch or is it cm? Must be 2.54 cm. 25.4
times 6.32. Wow! The Rotax is hardly moving by comparison
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 11/23/2010 4:08:18 P.M. Central Standard Time,
aerobiz1@gmail.com writes:
And good morning to you too Bob ( though it is 7.54 am here....)
>From memory the stroke of a Rotax 912 is 61.5 mm, but the comment was :
" There are also many large air-cooled gear driven radial engines which
rev to the territory of the 912"
I took it meaning RPM, not piston speed. I would guess that a big ol'
R3350 would have a piston speed possibly higher than the 912, but we are
getting way off topic ....
Best Rgds
Martin
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 7:32 AM, <_BobsV35B@aol.com_
(mailto:BobsV35B@aol.com) > wrote:
> Good Afternoon Martin,
>
> What is the stroke on the 912? Isn't it true that piston speed, not RPM
,
is
> what we must deal with?
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
> In a message dated 11/23/2010 3:28:16 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> _aerobiz1@gmail.com_ (mailto:aerobiz1@gmail.com) writes:
>
> Sorry, I know this is off topic, but it is an interesting discussion.
I
> have to ask you Noel, what aircooled gear-driven radials run at 912
speeds,
> given the 912 produces max torque around 4800 rpm ? :-)
> Martin
>
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 2:45 AM, Noel Loveys <_noelloveys@yahoo.ca_
(mailto:noelloveys@yahoo.ca) > wrote:
>>
>> Ok but you did ask about fuel injected engines..
>>
>>
>>
>> With non-injected engines they will =9Cping=9D just about
all the time but
you
>> will only be able to notice it when the rpm and load are in specific
>> quantities. For instance a friend of mine many years ago had a Ford
500
>> with the 390 4bbl., dual low resistance exhausts and mo doubt a few
other
>> goodies on it. It had a real problem for we idiot speed demons, it
>> backfired like a mule after 90 mph. That was long before it really go
t
>> producing what it could. After trying everything to stop the
backfiring my
>> friend finally got rid of the car. Several years later the Royal
>> Newfoundland Constabulary had the same problem with a factory built
hotrod
>> they got from GM. The Constab, had their own fuel supply so they knew
it
>> was high octane. GM technicians from the factory spent two weeks
working on
>> the car until they had exhausted ( pardon the pun) every possibility.
One
>> of the technicians then sent a sample of the fuel back to GM for a fla
sh
>> test.... It was low-low octane. The Constabulary then decided to tes
t
all
>> the high octane tanks in the area, of some fifty tanks tested only one
>> actually had high octane fuel. The Constabulary then charged their
test lab
>> with fixing octane numbers and sent notification to all the oil
companies
>> servicing the province with warning that their fuel would be tested on
a
>> regular basis. The reply they got form their supplier was that they
would
>> no longer do octane testing for the Constabulary.
>>
>>
>>
>> The reason conventionally aspirated direct drive aircraft engines get
>> away, most of the time, with lower octane fuel is they are specifical
ly
>> tuned to operate at high throttle settings for extended periods of
time.
>> They are also designed to mostly work at lower rpm with a much flatter
>> torque curve than a conventional auto engine. Of course those engines
are
>> only certified to use specific fuels so the question is a bit mute.
They
>> are also generally high displacement for the power they deliver. The
>> interesting thing with the big radials is they develop so much heat th
ey
>> actually change shape in different phases of flight. Descent is a
>> particularly touchy time as it is dangerous to allow the engine to coo
l
too
>> much as you may need the power on short notice and drawing power form
a
cold
>> engine is a recipe for not too much fun.
>>
>>
>>
>> There are also many large air-cooled gear driven radial engines which
rev
>> to the territory of the 912 and it was not uncommon for them to blow
jugs on
>> flights even with the certified fuels. In fact there used to be a
running
>> joke that you could always tell the mechanic at an airport because he
was
>> the one who drove the biggest, most expensive or fastest car. He made
his
>> money replacing cylinders on corn cob radials. ;->
>>
>>
>>
>> Back from the diversion.... The engines we use (912 UL etc.) are
designed
>> to operate efficiently in the extended rpm envelope using fuels of low
er
>> octane. Those engines which use higher compression ratios and/or turb
o
>> charging ( 914 etc.) are designed to operate on higher octane no lead
auto
>> fuels. This is great as long as such fuels are available. The
problem we
>> are now coming into is the extended use of ethanol, both as an oxidize
r
and
>> an octane booster... don=99t start me on that one!
>>
>>
>>
>> Noel
>>
>>
>>
>> From: _owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com_
(mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com)
>> [mailto:_owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com_
(mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com) ] On Behalf Of FLYa
DIVE
>> Sent: November 21, 2010 8:08 PM
>> To: _jabiruengine-list@matronics.com_
(mailto:jabiruengine-list@matronics.com)
>> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Engine Shut Down
>>
>>
>>
>> Noel:
>>
>>
>>
>> So how do you explain it for NON-Fuel Injected engines?
>>
>> Or engines WITHOUT anti-knock equipment?
>>
>> And even those fuel injected engine WITHOUT electric injectors?
>>
>>
>>
>> Remember... I said it was a LOADED QUESTION :-)
>>
>>
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Noel Loveys <_noelloveys@yahoo.ca_
(mailto:noelloveys@yahoo.ca) > wrote:
>>
>> Barry:
>>
>>
>>
>> I think you answered your own question. The fuel injectors are
>> electrically operated. They spray a fine mist of fuel into the
cylinders
>> just before the spark is given. Spraying cold fuel into the cylinder
at
>> that time causes the cylinder to cool a little ( may or may not be
>> appreciable ) but also it means there isn=99t any fuel there
detonate.
Anti
>> knock detectors will also adjust the timing of the fuel injection to
prevent
>> knocking.
>>
>>
>>
>> Noel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Loaded Question: If the flash point of gas is so low, below that of
>> internal CHT why do we not Pre-Ignition all the time?
>>
>>
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM, <_zeprep251@aol.com_
(mailto:zeprep251@aol.com) > wrote:
>>
>> Mike,
>> If you have a mixture control on your carburetor you could shut it off
>> that way.But if you want to kill it by turning off the fuel selector,b
e
>> prepared to wait for a couple minutes for the fuel bowl on the Bing to
run
>> dry. General aviation engines run a couple hundred degrees higher
cylinder
>> head temps and would run on with out spark ignition,you had to starve
it of
>> fuel to kill it.
>> G.Aman Jabiru 2200A 600 hrs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: MHerder <_michaelherder@beckgroup.com_
(mailto:michaelherder@beckgroup.com) >
>> To: jabiruengine-list <_jabiruengine-list@matronics.com_
(mailto:jabiruengine-list@matronics.com) >
>> Sent: Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:44 pm
>> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Engine Shut Down
>>
>> <_michaelherder@beckgroup.com_ (mailto:michaelherder@beckgroup.com) >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Manual on my 3300 says just turn the ignition off to shut it down...
Any
>> reason
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> why we should or shouldn't be shutting it off buy shutting off the fue
l?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------
>>
>>
>>
>> One Rivet at a Time!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319979#319979_
(http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319979#319979)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _blank">_www.aeroelectric.com_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> " target="_blank">_www.buildersbooks.com_
(http://www.buildersbooks.com/)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ="_blank">_www.homebuilthelp.com_ (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _blank">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ist"
target="_blank">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List_
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> tp://_forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _blank">_www.aeroelectric.com_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/)
>>
>> .com" target="_blank">_www.buildersbooks.com_
(http://www.buildersbooks.com/)
>>
>> ="_blank">_www.homebuilthelp.com_ (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/)
>>
>> _blank">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
>>
>> ist"
target="_blank">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List_
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List)
>>
>> tp://_forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _www.aeroelectric.com_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/)
>>
>> _www.buildersbooks.com_ (http://www.buildersbooks.com/)
>>
>> _www.homebuilthelp.com_ (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/)
>>
>> _http://www.matronics.com/contribution_
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
>>
>>
>>
>> _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List_
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List)
>>
>> _http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _blank">_www.aeroelectric.com_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/)
>>
>> .com" target="_blank">_www.buildersbooks.com_
(http://www.buildersbooks.com/)
>>
>> ="_blank">_www.homebuilthelp.com_ (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/)
>>
>> _blank">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
>>
>> ist"
target="_blank">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List_
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List)
>>
>> tp://_forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _www.aeroelectric.com_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/)
>>
>> _www.buildersbooks.com_ (http://www.buildersbooks.com/)
>>
>> _www.homebuilthelp.com_ (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/)
>>
>> _http://www.matronics.com/contribution_
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
>>
>> _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List_
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List)
>>
>> _http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
>>
>> _blank">_www.aeroelectric.com_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/)
>> .com" target="_blank">_www.buildersbooks.com_
(http://www.buildersbooks.com/)
>> ="_blank">_www.homebuilthelp.com_ (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/)
>> _blank">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
>> ist"
target="_blank">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List_
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List)
>> tp://_forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
>
>
> =======================
============
> ttp://_www.aeroelectric.com/_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/)
">_www.aeroelectric.com_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/)
> m/ href="_http://www.buildersbooks.com/_ (http://www.buildersbooks.co
m/)
">_www.buildersbooks.com_ (http://www.buildersbooks.com/)
> "_http://www.homebuilthelp.com/_ (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/)
">_www.homebuilthelp.com_ (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/)
> tp://_www.matronics.com/contribution_
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ">_http://www.matronics.com/contri
bution_
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
> ==========
> List
> href="_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List_
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List)
">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List_ (http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngi
ne-List)
> =======================
============
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">_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
> ==========
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>.homebuilthelp.com
you for your generous support!
Email Forum -
re, and much much more:
igator?JabiruEngine-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-
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===================
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(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Shut Down |
Ok - Big 'ol R3350 : 25.4 x 6.32 = 160.5 mm of stroke x 2900/min = 465
,531
mm/min.
Little 'ol 912 : 61.5 x 5800 (max rpm) = 356,700 mm /min
So the piston speed is over 30% higher on the R3350. I can't imagine what
the piston acceleration must be.
Cheers
Martin
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 9:14 AM, <BobsV35B@aol.com> wrote:
> Good Morning Martin,
>
> Not too good on the conversions, but the wonderful Turbo Compound R-3350
> turned as high as 2900 RPM in it's most powerful versions and the stroke
was
> 6.312 inches. Probably at least as high a piston speed as the Rotax if no
t
> higher! Lets see. 2.54 mm per inch or is it cm? Must be 2.54 cm. 25.4 ti
mes
> 6.32. Wow! The Rotax is hardly moving by comparison
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
> In a message dated 11/23/2010 4:08:18 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> aerobiz1@gmail.com writes:
>
> And good morning to you too Bob ( though it is 7.54 am here....)
>
> From memory the stroke of a Rotax 912 is 61.5 mm, but the comment was :
>
> *" There are also many large air-cooled gear driven radial engines which
> rev to the territory of the 912"*
>
> I took it meaning RPM, not piston speed. I would guess that a big ol'
> R3350 would have a piston speed possibly higher than the 912, but we are
> getting way off topic ....
>
> Best Rgds
>
> Martin
>
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 7:32 AM, <BobsV35B@aol.com> wrote:
> > Good Afternoon Martin,
> >
> > What is the stroke on the 912? Isn't it true that piston speed, not RPM
,
> is
> > what we must deal with?
> >
> > Happy Skies,
> >
> > Old Bob
> >
> > In a message dated 11/23/2010 3:28:16 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> > aerobiz1@gmail.com writes:
> >
> > Sorry, I know this is off topic, but it is an interesting discussion.
I
> > have to ask you Noel, what aircooled gear-driven radials run at 912
> speeds,
> > given the 912 produces max torque around 4800 rpm ? :-)
> > Martin
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 2:45 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Ok but you did ask about fuel injected engines..
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> With non-injected engines they will =93ping=94 just about all the time
but
> you
> >> will only be able to notice it when the rpm and load are in specific
> >> quantities. For instance a friend of mine many years ago had a Ford 5
00
> >> with the 390 4bbl., dual low resistance exhausts and mo doubt a few
> other
> >> goodies on it. It had a real problem for we idiot speed demons, it
> >> backfired like a mule after 90 mph. That was long before it really go
t
> >> producing what it could. After trying everything to stop the backfiri
ng
> my
> >> friend finally got rid of the car. Several years later the Royal
> >> Newfoundland Constabulary had the same problem with a factory built
> hotrod
> >> they got from GM. The Constab, had their own fuel supply so they knew
> it
> >> was high octane. GM technicians from the factory spent two weeks
> working on
> >> the car until they had exhausted ( pardon the pun) every possibility.
> One
> >> of the technicians then sent a sample of the fuel back to GM for a fla
sh
> >> test.... It was low-low octane. The Constabulary then decided to tes
t
> all
> >> the high octane tanks in the area, of some fifty tanks tested only one
> >> actually had high octane fuel. The Constabulary then charged their te
st
> lab
> >> with fixing octane numbers and sent notification to all the oil
> companies
> >> servicing the province with warning that their fuel would be tested on
a
> >> regular basis. The reply they got form their supplier was that they
> would
> >> no longer do octane testing for the Constabulary.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The reason conventionally aspirated direct drive aircraft engines get
> >> away, most of the time, with lower octane fuel is they are specificall
y
> >> tuned to operate at high throttle settings for extended periods of
> time.
> >> They are also designed to mostly work at lower rpm with a much flatter
> >> torque curve than a conventional auto engine. Of course those engines
> are
> >> only certified to use specific fuels so the question is a bit mute.
> They
> >> are also generally high displacement for the power they deliver. The
> >> interesting thing with the big radials is they develop so much heat th
ey
> >> actually change shape in different phases of flight. Descent is a
> >> particularly touchy time as it is dangerous to allow the engine to coo
l
> too
> >> much as you may need the power on short notice and drawing power form
a
> cold
> >> engine is a recipe for not too much fun.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> There are also many large air-cooled gear driven radial engines which
> rev
> >> to the territory of the 912 and it was not uncommon for them to blow
> jugs on
> >> flights even with the certified fuels. In fact there used to be a
> running
> >> joke that you could always tell the mechanic at an airport because he
> was
> >> the one who drove the biggest, most expensive or fastest car. He made
> his
> >> money replacing cylinders on corn cob radials. ;->
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Back from the diversion.... The engines we use (912 UL etc.) are
> designed
> >> to operate efficiently in the extended rpm envelope using fuels of low
er
> >> octane. Those engines which use higher compression ratios and/or turb
o
> >> charging ( 914 etc.) are designed to operate on higher octane no lead
> auto
> >> fuels. This is great as long as such fuels are available. The probl
em
> we
> >> are now coming into is the extended use of ethanol, both as an oxidize
r
> and
> >> an octane booster... don=92t start me on that one!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Noel
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> >> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> FLYaDIVE
> >> Sent: November 21, 2010 8:08 PM
>
> >> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Engine Shut Down
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Noel:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> So how do you explain it for NON-Fuel Injected engines?
> >>
> >> Or engines WITHOUT anti-knock equipment?
> >>
> >> And even those fuel injected engine WITHOUT electric injectors?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Remember... I said it was a LOADED QUESTION :-)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Barry
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Barry:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I think you answered your own question. The fuel injectors are
> >> electrically operated. They spray a fine mist of fuel into the
> cylinders
> >> just before the spark is given. Spraying cold fuel into the cylinder
at
> >> that time causes the cylinder to cool a little ( may or may not be
> >> appreciable ) but also it means there isn=92t any fuel there detonate
.
> Anti
> >> knock detectors will also adjust the timing of the fuel injection to
> prevent
> >> knocking.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Noel
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Loaded Question: If the flash point of gas is so low, below that of
> >> internal CHT why do we not Pre-Ignition all the time?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Barry
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM, <zeprep251@aol.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Mike,
> >> If you have a mixture control on your carburetor you could shut it off
> >> that way.But if you want to kill it by turning off the fuel selector,b
e
> >> prepared to wait for a couple minutes for the fuel bowl on the Bing to
> run
> >> dry. General aviation engines run a couple hundred degrees higher
> cylinder
> >> head temps and would run on with out spark ignition,you had to starve
it
> of
> >> fuel to kill it.
> >> G.Aman Jabiru 2200A 600 hrs
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: MHerder <michaelherder@beckgroup.com>
> >> To: jabiruengine-list <jabiruengine-list@matronics.com>
> >> Sent: Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:44 pm
> >> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Engine Shut Down
> >>
> >> <michaelherder@beckgroup.com>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Manual on my 3300 says just turn the ignition off to shut it down...
> Any
> >> reason
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> why we should or shouldn't be shutting it off buy shutting off the fue
l?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --------
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> One Rivet at a Time!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Read this topic online here:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319979#319979
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ==========
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> " target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ==========
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ist" target="_blank">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ==========
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> tp://forums.matronics.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ==========
>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
> >>
> >> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
> >>
> >> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
> >>
> >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >>
> >> ist" target="_blank">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
> >>
> >> tp://forums.matronics.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> www.aeroelectric.com
> >>
> >> www.buildersbooks.com
> >>
> >> www.homebuilthelp.com
> >>
> >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
> >>
> >> http://forums.matronics.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
> >>
> >> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
> >>
> >> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
> >>
> >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >>
> >> ist" target="_blank">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
> >>
> >> tp://forums.matronics.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> www.aeroelectric.com
> >>
> >> www.buildersbooks.com
> >>
> >> www.homebuilthelp.com
> >>
> >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >>
> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
> >>
> >> http://forums.matronics.com
> >>
> >> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
> >> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
> >> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
> >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >> ist" target="_blank">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
> >> tp://forums.matronics.com
> >
> >
> >
> > =======================
============
> > ttp://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com
> > m/ href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com
> > "http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com
> > tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> > ==========
> > List
> > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
> > =======================
============
> > ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> > ==========
> > www.buildersbooks.com
> >.homebuilthelp.com
>
> you for your generous support!
> Email Forum -
> re, and much much more:
> igator?JabiruEngine-List">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-L========
============
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> >
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> *
>
>
> ========================
===========
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> m/ href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com
> "http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com
>
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> ========================
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> List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">http:/
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