Today's Message Index:
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1. 01:22 PM - Voltage Regulator Output (MHerder)
2. 02:53 PM - Re: Voltage Regulator Output (FLYaDIVE)
3. 03:51 PM - Voltage Regulator Schematic for Voltage Regulator output thread (James, Clive R)
4. 04:20 PM - Re: Voltage Regulator Output (James, Clive R)
5. 05:37 PM - Re: Voltage Regulator Output (Craig Payne)
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| Subject: | Voltage Regulator Output |
I am using a Jabiru 3300 with a permanent magnet alternator and a kubota voltage
regulator. I have some questions since I don't fully understand the PM alternator
output.
1) What does the voltage out of the regulator look like on an oscilloscope? Is
it really pure DC or does it have some squiggles that avionics may not do so well
with?
2) Jabiru suggests tying the yellow wire (senses voltage and tells whether or not
the system needs charge or dumps excess to ground) and the Red wire (charges
battery) as close to the positive terminal as possible. I would like to charge
and sense voltage at the starter contactor for the following reason... If I
have an over voltage situation, I will get an alarm from my EIS and I can simply
shut off my master switch which would hopefully prevent a problem.... Take
a look at my schematic and let me know what you think.
3) What should the voltage be at say 800 RPM, 1500 RPM and 2800 RPM?
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MHerder
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 124
Location: Fort Worth TX
Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Voltage Regulator Output
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To clarify, my main concern is with damaging avionics since my charging would rin
past the avionics bus on the way to the positive side of my battery. I also
have concerns with what happens if the red and yellow are disconnected. Where
would the voltage go, or would it just be an open circuit?
--------
One Rivet at a Time!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324583#324583
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/regulator_wiring_150.pdf
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| Subject: | Re: Voltage Regulator Output |
Very interesting question M Herder... Is that Mike Herder?
I use to know a Mike Herder in high school.
> I am using a Jabiru 3300 with a permanent magnet alternator and a kubota
> voltage regulator. I have some questions since I don't fully understand the
> PM alternator output.
>
> 1) What does the voltage out of the regulator look like on an oscilloscope?
> Is it really pure DC or does it have some squiggles that avionics may not do
> so well with?
>
[Barry] - Lets back up a little to the ALTERNATOR. The out put there
is pulsating DC. How much it pulsates is determined by the number and
spacing of the magnets and coils on the armature.
This voltage is then sent to the Voltage Regulator (VR) a.k.a Alternator
Control Unit (ACU)
http://www.bcae1.com/charging.htm
The ACU does have some very small amount of filtering to smooth out
the pulsating DC / ripple, but not much.
Not much is really needed. Why? Because the BATTERY does the filtering.
You could parallel up one or some 50K uF capacitors but they will not do
much. Unless you have AC noise in your system but, then you need to
address more than just a capacitor at the battery. That is another question
and answer.
>
> 2) Jabiru suggests tying the yellow wire (senses voltage and tells whether
> or not the system needs charge or dumps excess to ground) and the Red wire
> (charges battery) as close to the positive terminal as possible. I would
> like to charge and sense voltage at the starter contactor for the following
> reason... If I have an over voltage situation, I will get an alarm from my
> EIS and I can simply shut off my master switch which would hopefully prevent
> a problem.... Take a look at my schematic and let me know what you think.
>
[Barry] - To clarify - It does NOT dump the voltage to ground. That would
be a SHORT and you will be popping CB's all the time. Exactly how the
voltage regulation is being done I would need a schematic of the VR. But,
in most cases the Sense Voltage is used to turn ON and OFF either the FIELD
- Which you do not have in a PM Alternator. Or a switching transistor to
allow current flow.
" I will get an alarm from my EIS": <--- I think you meant that as a
question. With the two EIS I have worked with YES you can set them up for a
LOW and HIGH Limit alarm. What you do with this information is up to you
and the design of your electrical system.
I would NOT want to be LIMITED to only turning on and off the Master Switch.
That totally limits your ability to run off the battery. Can you post the
schematic of your plane? Then I would be able to better answer what action
should be taken.
If you installed a CB in series with the output of the alternator you would
add protection and a means of shutting down the alternator output while
allowing the Master to remain on.
Of course just like with any Split Master/Alternator you also have the
addition requirement to REMEMBER to turn it ON.
>
> 3) What should the voltage be at say 800 RPM, 1500 RPM and 2800 RPM?
>
[Barry] - Difficult question to answer.... TOO MANY VARIABLES. What you
want to see for CHARGING is 13.8 to 14.2 VDC for a 12 volt system. Less
than that and the battery will not charge. What you see is dependent on the
speed of the alternator. What drives the alternator and what ratio of drive
is there between the engine and the alternator. Some planes have an 11:1
drive increase. So even at idle say 650 RPM the alternator is spinning at
7150 RPM.
Measure the voltage right after start up and see what is happening.
For your other question: " also have concerns with what happens if the red
and yellow are disconnected. Where would the voltage go, or would it just be
an open circuit?" I would require a schematic of the VR.
Hope this helps?
Barry
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Regulator Wiring.pdf
> Description:
>
> Download
> Filename: Regulator Wiring.pdf
> Filesize: 10.58 KB
> Downloaded: 1 Time(s)
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _________________
> One Rivet at a Time!
>
> Back to top
>
>
> MHerder
>
>
> also have concerns with what happens if the red and yellow are
> disconnected. Where would the voltage go, or would it just be an open
> circuit?
>
>
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| Subject: | Voltage Regulator Schematic for Voltage Regulator output |
thread
________________________________
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
FLYaDIVE
Sent: 26 December 2010 22:49
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Voltage Regulator Output
Very interesting question M Herder... Is that Mike Herder?
I use to know a Mike Herder in high school.
I am using a Jabiru 3300 with a permanent magnet alternator and
a kubota voltage regulator. I have some questions since I don't fully
understand the PM alternator output.
1) What does the voltage out of the regulator look like on an
oscilloscope? Is it really pure DC or does it have some squiggles that
avionics may not do so well with?
[Barry] - Lets back up a little to the ALTERNATOR. The out put there is
pulsating DC. How much it pulsates is determined by the number and
spacing of the magnets and coils on the armature.
This voltage is then sent to the Voltage Regulator (VR) a.k.a Alternator
Control Unit (ACU)
http://www.bcae1.com/charging.htm
The ACU does have some very small amount of filtering to smooth out the
pulsating DC / ripple, but not much.
Not much is really needed. Why? Because the BATTERY does the
filtering.
You could parallel up one or some 50K uF capacitors but they will not do
much. Unless you have AC noise in your system but, then you need to
address more than just a capacitor at the battery. That is another
question and answer.
2) Jabiru suggests tying the yellow wire (senses voltage and
tells whether or not the system needs charge or dumps excess to ground)
and the Red wire (charges battery) as close to the positive terminal as
possible. I would like to charge and sense voltage at the starter
contactor for the following reason... If I have an over voltage
situation, I will get an alarm from my EIS and I can simply shut off my
master switch which would hopefully prevent a problem.... Take a look at
my schematic and let me know what you think.
[Barry] - To clarify - It does NOT dump the voltage to ground. That
would be a SHORT and you will be popping CB's all the time. Exactly how
the voltage regulation is being done I would need a schematic of the VR.
But, in most cases the Sense Voltage is used to turn ON and OFF either
the FIELD - Which you do not have in a PM Alternator. Or a switching
transistor to allow current flow.
" I will get an alarm from my EIS": <--- I think you meant that as a
question. With the two EIS I have worked with YES you can set them up
for a LOW and HIGH Limit alarm. What you do with this information is up
to you and the design of your electrical system.
I would NOT want to be LIMITED to only turning on and off the Master
Switch. That totally limits your ability to run off the battery. Can
you post the schematic of your plane? Then I would be able to better
answer what action should be taken.
If you installed a CB in series with the output of the alternator you
would add protection and a means of shutting down the alternator output
while allowing the Master to remain on.
Of course just like with any Split Master/Alternator you also have the
addition requirement to REMEMBER to turn it ON.
3) What should the voltage be at say 800 RPM, 1500 RPM and 2800
RPM?
[Barry] - Difficult question to answer.... TOO MANY VARIABLES. What you
want to see for CHARGING is 13.8 to 14.2 VDC for a 12 volt system. Less
than that and the battery will not charge. What you see is dependent on
the speed of the alternator. What drives the alternator and what ratio
of drive is there between the engine and the alternator. Some planes
have an 11:1 drive increase. So even at idle say 650 RPM the alternator
is spinning at 7150 RPM.
Measure the voltage right after start up and see what is happening.
For your other question: " also have concerns with what happens if the
red and yellow are disconnected. Where would the voltage go, or would it
just be an open circuit?" I would require a schematic of the VR.
Hope this helps?
Barry
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Regulator Wiring.pdf
Description:
Download
Filename: Regulator Wiring.pdf
Filesize: 10.58 KB
Downloaded: 1 Time(s)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
_________________
One Rivet at a Time!
Back to top
MHerder
also have concerns with what happens if the red and yellow are
disconnected. Where would the voltage go, or would it just be an open
circuit?
Message 4
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| Subject: | Voltage Regulator Output |
Hi MH, I sent the schematic so Barry can update his comments.
The magnets are on the flywheel, it's a 12 pole alternator so the
squiggles are a factor of that and the engine revs.
Not really relevant to anything as we have what we have.
If you have chunky cables then being away from the battery positive a
little with the sense wire won't be an issue.
As Barry says the voltage will vary for several reasons but a typical
voltage reading on both my Jab engines is 14.4 volts at cruise (2750)
when the battery has recovered from the starting draw down. This is read
off my GPS as I don't have a big flat screen HD801 unfortunately.
The green wire can work a nice charging lamp, which if nothing else
lights up when the master is on and the engine isn't running, reminds
you to turn the master off when you get out the plane.
The interference from the generation system can cause a bit of a whine
to radios but good wiring practices and use of a filter (for the audio
stuff) will get rid of it. Most interference comes from the ignition
system.
Folk seem to fit most everything you could to Jab engined planes
nowadays and it all seems to work.
Having an option where you can run on your battery alone sounds like a
good one.
There's loads of discussion on this subject in the archives and you can
get loads of wiring diagrams if you ask. Lots of opinions also....
The Yahoo Jabiru engines group has the same stuff.
Regards, Clive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
MHerder
Sent: 26 December 2010 21:19
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Voltage Regulator Output
--> <michaelherder@beckgroup.com>
I am using a Jabiru 3300 with a permanent magnet alternator and a kubota
voltage regulator. I have some questions since I don't fully understand
the PM alternator output.
1) What does the voltage out of the regulator look like on an
oscilloscope? Is it really pure DC or does it have some squiggles that
avionics may not do so well with?
2) Jabiru suggests tying the yellow wire (senses voltage and tells
whether or not the system needs charge or dumps excess to ground) and
the Red wire (charges battery) as close to the positive terminal as
possible. I would like to charge and sense voltage at the starter
contactor for the following reason... If I have an over voltage
situation, I will get an alarm from my EIS and I can simply shut off my
master switch which would hopefully prevent a problem.... Take a look at
my schematic and let me know what you think.
3) What should the voltage be at say 800 RPM, 1500 RPM and 2800 RPM?
- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities
available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search &
Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Regulator Wiring.pdf
Description:
Download
Filename: Regulator Wiring.pdf
Filesize: 10.58 KB
Downloaded: 1 Time(s)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
_________________
One Rivet at a Time!
Back to top
MHerder
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 124
Location: Fort Worth TX
Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Voltage Regulator
Output
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
To clarify, my main concern is with damaging avionics since my charging
would rin past the avionics bus on the way to the positive side of my
battery. I also have concerns with what happens if the red and yellow
are disconnected. Where would the voltage go, or would it just be an
open circuit?
--------
One Rivet at a Time!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324583#324583
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/regulator_wiring_150.pdf
Message 5
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| Subject: | Voltage Regulator Output |
There is a schematic of the regulator in the Jabiru manuals. And it contains
a full-wave rectifier (with two legs formed with SCRs) because the
alternator does put out AC. See the bottom of page 54 here:
http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/manuals/new%20stuff/3300HL-IM.pdf
Quoting from the bottom of page 56 " The regulator performs rectification
and voltage regulation. The regulator converts A.C. into D.C. which flows
through the power consuming circuits and the battery, maintaining battery
charge."
The regulator performs no filtering at all - it can't as all it can do is
switch the SCR's on (they turn off when the voltage across the drops to zero
as the voltage alternates). You can see some details here:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~cloutaa/Regulator.html
The battery does filter but it doesn't take out the high frequency
components in the noise. That is why both Jabiru and Rotax (another engine
with a PM alternator and a voltage rectifier/regulator) recommend large
electrolytic capacitors in the circuit (25,000 microfarads or more).
-- Craig
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2010 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Voltage Regulator Output
Very interesting question M Herder... Is that Mike Herder?
I use to know a Mike Herder in high school.
I am using a Jabiru 3300 with a permanent magnet alternator and a kubota
voltage regulator. I have some questions since I don't fully understand the
PM alternator output.
1) What does the voltage out of the regulator look like on an oscilloscope?
Is it really pure DC or does it have some squiggles that avionics may not do
so well with?
[Barry] - Lets back up a little to the ALTERNATOR. The out put there is
pulsating DC. How much it pulsates is determined by the number and spacing
of the magnets and coils on the armature.
This voltage is then sent to the Voltage Regulator (VR) a.k.a Alternator
Control Unit (ACU)
http://www.bcae1.com/charging.htm
The ACU does have some very small amount of filtering to smooth out the
pulsating DC / ripple, but not much.
Not much is really needed. Why? Because the BATTERY does the filtering.
You could parallel up one or some 50K uF capacitors but they will not do
much. Unless you have AC noise in your system but, then you need to
address more than just a capacitor at the battery. That is another question
and answer.
2) Jabiru suggests tying the yellow wire (senses voltage and tells whether
or not the system needs charge or dumps excess to ground) and the Red wire
(charges battery) as close to the positive terminal as possible. I would
like to charge and sense voltage at the starter contactor for the following
reason... If I have an over voltage situation, I will get an alarm from my
EIS and I can simply shut off my master switch which would hopefully prevent
a problem.... Take a look at my schematic and let me know what you think.
[Barry] - To clarify - It does NOT dump the voltage to ground. That would
be a SHORT and you will be popping CB's all the time. Exactly how the
voltage regulation is being done I would need a schematic of the VR. But,
in most cases the Sense Voltage is used to turn ON and OFF either the FIELD
- Which you do not have in a PM Alternator. Or a switching transistor to
allow current flow.
" I will get an alarm from my EIS": <--- I think you meant that as a
question. With the two EIS I have worked with YES you can set them up for a
LOW and HIGH Limit alarm. What you do with this information is up to you
and the design of your electrical system.
I would NOT want to be LIMITED to only turning on and off the Master Switch.
That totally limits your ability to run off the battery. Can you post the
schematic of your plane? Then I would be able to better answer what action
should be taken.
If you installed a CB in series with the output of the alternator you would
add protection and a means of shutting down the alternator output while
allowing the Master to remain on.
Of course just like with any Split Master/Alternator you also have the
addition requirement to REMEMBER to turn it ON.
3) What should the voltage be at say 800 RPM, 1500 RPM and 2800 RPM?
[Barry] - Difficult question to answer.... TOO MANY VARIABLES. What you
want to see for CHARGING is 13.8 to 14.2 VDC for a 12 volt system. Less
than that and the battery will not charge. What you see is dependent on the
speed of the alternator. What drives the alternator and what ratio of drive
is there between the engine and the alternator. Some planes have an 11:1
drive increase. So even at idle say 650 RPM the alternator is spinning at
7150 RPM.
Measure the voltage right after start up and see what is happening.
For your other question: " also have concerns with what happens if the red
and yellow are disconnected. Where would the voltage go, or would it just be
an open circuit?" I would require a schematic of the VR.
Hope this helps?
Barry
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regulator Wiring.pdf
Description:
Download
Filename: Regulator Wiring.pdf
Filesize: 10.58 KB
Downloaded: 1 Time(s)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
_________________
One Rivet at a Time!
Back to top
MHerder
also have concerns with what happens if the red and yellow are
disconnected. Where would the voltage go, or would it just be an open
circuit?
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