Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:01 AM - Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. (zeprep251@aol.com)
2. 06:22 AM - Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. (Beckman, Rick)
3. 11:22 AM - Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. (j. davis)
4. 11:28 AM - Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. (j. davis)
5. 01:48 PM - Re: CHT issues on a 3300 (Jeffrey J Paris)
6. 01:48 PM - Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. (Martin Hone)
7. 02:36 PM - Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. (j. davis)
8. 02:39 PM - Re: CHT issues on a 3300 (Martin Hone)
9. 02:56 PM - Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. (Martin Hone)
10. 03:25 PM - Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] (Sweeting, Ian MR)
11. 03:55 PM - Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] (j. davis)
12. 04:03 PM - Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. (zeprep251@aol.com)
13. 06:06 PM - Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. (jd@lawsonimaging.ca)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. |
J,
Check the air gap between flywheel and mags,then make certain that no plug
wires have been rubbed thru by contact with the flywheel or pinched when th
e spider was re-installed. Air intake free of rodent nests?Good hunting!
G.
-----Original Message-----
From: j. davis <jd@lawsonimaging.ca>
Sent: Mon, Jun 6, 2011 7:34 pm
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle.
Greetings Jabiru community...
I'm having a puzzling issue with my 3300 (early hyd. lifters, Aerocarb, 100
hrs.) that I'm
hoping
someone on this list will be able to help me with. I'll try to touch on the
pertinent facts:
- recently completed a 100 hour inspection. Engine was fine last fall when
last
flying.
- new plugs, standard NGK plugs, anti-seize. All 12 plugs that came out wer
e
essentially
tan in colour.
- removed distributors and alternator spider to get at flywheel bolts, but
never
disconnected the plug
wires at the distributors. No sign of anything amiss inside, no dust, ro
tors
look fine.
- Leak-down test (warm engine) good for all cyls, lowest was 72/80.
- during initial ground ops after all was back together, the engine seemed
to
run rough.
- mag tests showed about 40 rpm rpm when r.h. coil grounded via 'mag' switc
h,
but slightly
rough running.
- when l.h. coil grounded, *very* rough and stumbly (is that a word?), with
about a 100
rpm drop.
- coil primary and secondary resistance measurements were close to specs.
- after checking all the obvious stuff I could think of (h.t. wire seating,
etc.), I
removed the plugs
and saw that all were nicely tan with the exception of *both* cyl. #3 pl
ugs,
which were
black and sooty.
- so I replaced those two plugs and taxied the plane, with the mixture
aggressively
leaned, standard procedure the way my aerocarb is set up.
- monitored the EGT and CHT temps on my E.I.S 6000, saw that cylinder #3's
temps
were
right in line
with all the other cyls. Mag checks similar to before, still rough,
*especially rough*
with l.h. coil grounded.
- removed the two #3 plugs, sure enough, they were black and sooty.
- repeated a leak-down test on all cyls, cyl. #3 was [again] 80/76
So now I'm running out of ideas. What could explain the two sooty plugs? I'
m
assuming at
this point these
plugs are related to the rough running, but not sure why one coil would be
worse
than the
other.
So now I'm out of ideas, so I'm plumbing the collective Jabiru consciencele
ss
for
ideas/explanations! I think I've included all the important data points, bu
t
please don't
hesitate to ask for more info, or clarification. I hesitate to fly the plan
e
until I get
to the bottom of this.
Thanks for listening! Hope someone can help!
--
Regards, J.
- Sonex #325 C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb
- former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder, CH750 in progress
- see both (and more!) at http://cleco.ca
+-------------------------------+
| J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp sci) |
| email: jd at lawsonimaging.ca |
| *NIX consulting, SysAdmin |
| http://cleco.ca |
+-------------------------------+
I xeroxed my watch. Now I have time to spare.
--- Steven Wright
Message 2
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| Subject: | Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. |
J., you might want to replace the plug wire for that particular
cylinder. Cheap elimination.
R.
Do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. |
On 06/07/2011 08:59 AM, zeprep251@aol.com wrote:
> J,
> Check the air gap between flywheel and mags
Yeah, forgot to state it explicitely, but of course I set the air gaps when I re-installed
the spider.Also
magic markered the magnets to witness any potential future contact.
> ,then make certain that no plug wires have been rubbed thru by contact with the
flywheel
> or pinched when the spider was re-installed.
It would be pretty hard for the plug wires to get into contact with the flywheel
or
pinched by the spider, they're quite
far removed by the length of the distributor and cap! Regardless, all plug wires
were
thoroughly checked.
> Air intake free of rodent nests?Good hunting!
Just have a newly cleaned and oiled K&N filter on the aerocarb, no other air intake,
as such.
Thanks, anyway!
> G.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: j. davis <jd@lawsonimaging.ca>
> To: jabiruengine-list <jabiruengine-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Mon, Jun 6, 2011 7:34 pm
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle.
>
> --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "j. davis"<jd@lawsonimaging.ca <mailto:jd@lawsonimaging.ca>>
>
> Greetings Jabiru community...
>
> I'm having a puzzling issue with my 3300 (early hyd. lifters, Aerocarb, 100
> hrs.) that I'm
> hoping
> someone on this list will be able to help me with. I'll try to touch on the
> pertinent facts:
>
> - recently completed a 100 hour inspection. Engine was fine last fall when last
> flying.
> - new plugs, standard NGK plugs, anti-seize. All 12 plugs that came out were
> essentially
> tan in colour.
> - removed distributors and alternator spider to get at flywheel bolts, but never
>
> disconnected the plug
> wires at the distributors. No sign of anything amiss inside, no dust, rotors
> look fine.
> - Leak-down test (warm engine) good for all cyls, lowest was 72/80.
> - during initial ground ops after all was back together, the engine seemed to
> run rough.
> - mag tests showed about 40 rpm rpm when r.h. coil grounded via 'mag' switch,
> but slightly
> rough running.
> - when l.h. coil grounded, *very* rough and stumbly (is that a word?), with
> about a 100
> rpm drop.
> - coil primary and secondary resistance measurements were close to specs.
> - after checking all the obvious stuff I could think of (h.t. wire seating,
> etc.), I
> removed the plugs
> and saw that all were nicely tan with the exception of *both* cyl. #3 plugs,
> which were
> black and sooty.
> - so I replaced those two plugs and taxied the plane, with the mixture
> aggressively
> leaned, standard procedure the way my aerocarb is set up.
> - monitored the EGT and CHT temps on my E.I.S 6000, saw that cylinder #3's temps
> were
> right in line
> with all the other cyls. Mag checks similar to before, still rough,
> *especially rough*
> with l.h. coil grounded.
> - removed the two #3 plugs, sure enough, they were black and sooty.
> - repeated a leak-down test on all cyls, cyl. #3 was [again] 80/76
>
> So now I'm running out of ideas. What could explain the two sooty plugs? I'm
> assuming at
> this point these
> plugs are related to the rough running, but not sure why one coil would be worse
> than the
> other.
>
> So now I'm out of ideas, so I'm plumbing the collective Jabiru conscienceless
> for
> ideas/explanations! I think I've included all the important data points, but
> please don't
> hesitate to ask for more info, or clarification. I hesitate to fly the plane
> until I get
> to the bottom of this.
>
> Thanks for listening! Hope someone can help!
>
> --
> Regards, J.
>
> - Sonex #325 C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb
> - former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder, CH750 in progress
> - see both (and more!) athttp://cleco.ca
>
> +-------------------------------+
> +-------------------------------+
>
>
> I xeroxed my watch. Now I have time to spare.
> --- Steven Wright
>
>
> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
Regards, J.
- Sonex #325 C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb
- former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder, CH750 in progress
- see both (and more!) at http://cleco.ca
+-------------------------------+
| J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp sci) |
| email: jd at lawsonimaging.ca |
| *NIX consulting, SysAdmin |
| http://cleco.ca |
+-------------------------------+
There's a pizza place near where I live that sells only
slices. In the back you can see a guy tossing a triangle
in the air.
--- Steven Wright
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. |
On 06/07/2011 09:19 AM, Beckman, Rick wrote:
> -->
>
> J., you might want to replace the plug wire for that particular cylinder. Cheap
elimination.
>
>
OK, this is weird. I swapped number three's plug wires for number four's, just
for the
heck of it.
Replaced the two sooty #3 cyl. plugs and went taxing. It felt smoother immediately,
and
when I did the mag tests,
both sides acted normally, with a 10-20 rpm drop and no rough running!
Got back and pulled #3 plugs... black and sooty again. #4 plugs just fine.
So what just happened???
Obviously, the #3 plug wires werent bad (and why should they have been), they are
now
firing the #4 cylinder just fine.
The stumbling and rough running disappeared. Why?
The two #3 plugs are still getting black and sooty, EGT and CHT temps for #3 still
fine.
> R.
>
> Do not archive
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
Regards, J.
- Sonex #325 C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb
- former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder, CH750 in progress
- see both (and more!) at http://cleco.ca
+-------------------------------+
| J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp sci) |
| email: jd at lawsonimaging.ca |
| *NIX consulting, SysAdmin |
| http://cleco.ca |
+-------------------------------+
I washed a sock. Then I put it in the dryer. When I took
it out, it was gone.
--- Steven Wright
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: CHT issues on a 3300 |
Dear Jabiru 3300 Guru's,
=C2-
First of all thank you for all of your input I appreciate as I battle the he
at demons in my cowl. =C2-Yesterday I spent the day working on my CHT cool
ing issues. =C2-I have attached some pictures for everyone to look at.
=C2-Anyways in addition to adding some aluminum sheet which profiles and s
eals in inboard baffles to the =C2-cylinders I attempted to add airdams to
the front of the baffles, per Nick Otterback's suggestion. =C2-In additio
n, I added some rubber stuffing to seal up the back of baffles and I added r
ubber washers over each sparkplug to seal up and air leaks from the plugs as
they protrude through the old style baffles. =C2-
=C2-
First flight today yielded these numbers in cruise:
=C2-
RPM 2500-Note had to use to keep CHTs in at least the yellow range. All powe
red climbs yielded high temps approachin 350F. air temp at time of flight wa
s 75 F =C2-and oil temp was 212F.
=C2-
Cylinder =C2- =C2- =C2-EGT (F) =C2- =C2- =C2- CHT (F)
1 =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- 1315 =C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-265
2 =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- 1271 =C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-330
3 =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- 1311 =C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-315
4 =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- 1353 =C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-315
5 =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- 1219 =C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-326
6 =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- 1338 =C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-292
=C2-
RPM 2400-Note had to use to keep CHTs in at least the yellow range. All powe
red climbs yielded high temps approachin 350F. =C2-In addition, I changed
these items I removed the rubber from the back of the baffles, removed the b
utterfly baffles from underneath the cylinders, and added improved airdams t
o the fron of the 2,4,6 cylinder bank. =C2-Outside temp at flight was 88 F
=C2-Oil Temp. =C2-212F
=C2-
Cylinder =C2- =C2- =C2-EGT (F) =C2- =C2- =C2- CHT (F)
1 =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- 1285 =C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-256
2 =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- 1258 =C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-316
3 =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- 1282 =C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-318
4 =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- 1347 =C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-315
5 =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- 1204 =C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-271
=C2-
In a sense I have made some progress. =C2-However, =C2-I cannot do a nor
mal rate of climb without cylinders 2,3,4,5 heading for the races towards 35
0F =C2-and I can't even imagine what temps I would see at max gross weight
with a passenger. =C2-So I am obviously not getting the utility out of th
e aircraft as I would like. =C2-
=C2-
Thanks for your time and consideration. =C2-I just want to go out flying l
ike the old days before I messed things up! =C2-LOL
=C2-
Cheers Jeff Paris =C2-2 Jabs in the nest/both sick
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
2514.jpg =C2- Shows a "scoop" that I added to aid in my old style oil cool
er Seems to work temps on cooler days 190F =C2-hot days 212F.
=C2-
2515.jpg =C2- Top of engine looking forward.
=C2-
2529.jpg =C2- I added some aluminum sheet, cut precisely to the cylinder p
rofile to seal up both inside baffles.
=C2-
=C2-2530.jpg =C2-Per Nick Otterback's / Flylightning suggestion I added
an air dam to the front right baffle on the 2,4,6 cylinder bank
=C2-
2531.jpg =C2-Shows the 1,3,5 cylinder baffle entrance
=C2-
2532.jpg =C2- I experimented with adding the butterfly cylinder baffles to
the underside of the cylinders, I tested them during my first flight today
and =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-rem
oved them for the second flight
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. |
J, maybe these plugs have always been black and sooty and it is a
parculiarity of your induction system.
mh1
On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 4:26 AM, j. davis <jd@lawsonimaging.ca> wrote:
>
> On 06/07/2011 09:19 AM, Beckman, Rick wrote:
>
>> -->
>>
>> J., you might want to replace the plug wire for that particular cylinder
.
>> Cheap elimination.
>>
>>
>> OK, this is weird. I swapped number three's plug wires for number four'
s,
> just for the heck of it.
> Replaced the two sooty #3 cyl. plugs and went taxing. It felt smoother
> immediately, and when I did the mag tests,
> both sides acted normally, with a 10-20 rpm drop and no rough running!
>
> Got back and pulled #3 plugs... black and sooty again. #4 plugs just fine
.
>
> So what just happened???
>
> Obviously, the #3 plug wires weren=99t bad (and why should they hav
e been),
> they are now firing the #4 cylinder just fine.
>
> The stumbling and rough running disappeared. Why?
>
> The two #3 plugs are still getting black and sooty, EGT and CHT temps for
> #3 still fine.
>
>
> R.
>>
>> Do not archive
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>
>
> --
> Regards, J.
>
> - Sonex #325 C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb
> - former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder, CH750 in progress
> - see both (and more!) at http://cleco.ca
>
> +-------------------------------+
> +-------------------------------+
>
>
> I washed a sock. Then I put it in the dryer. When I took
> it out, it was gone.
> --- Steven Wright
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. |
On 06/07/2011 04:45 PM, Martin Hone wrote:
> J, maybe these plugs have always been black and sooty and it is a parculiarity
of your
> induction system.
>
> mh1
>
Hmmm, maybe, but I think I would have noticed at plug change time. I always put
all the
plugs I remove into a
labeled plug holder board I fabricated and examine them for differences. Also,
I can't
imagine that the 3300 intake manifold
could be so selective that one particular cylinder's plugs are sooty/black while
all other
cylinders have light tan plugs!
I wonder if it's just a matter of time before those two plugs actually foul, and
the
rough, stumbling mag checks come back.
... except that that theory is repudiated by the first time I replaced those two
sooty
plugs with new plugs
and the rough running was there *instantly*.
So the question stands. What could cause either:
- a single cylinder of six to run so rich as to actually foul *both* plugs
or
- the two plugs of the single cylinder not to fire sufficiently to burn off the
charge
...keeping in mind the trouble-shooting items I have already eliminated...
Thanks for the input!
> On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 4:26 AM, j. davis <jd@lawsonimaging.ca
> <mailto:jd@lawsonimaging.ca>> wrote:
>
> <mailto:jd@lawsonimaging.ca>>
>
> On 06/07/2011 09:19 AM, Beckman, Rick wrote:
>
> -->
>
> J., you might want to replace the plug wire for that particular cylinder.
Cheap
> elimination.
>
>
> OK, this is weird. I swapped number three's plug wires for number four's,
just for
> the heck of it.
> Replaced the two sooty #3 cyl. plugs and went taxing. It felt smoother immediately,
> and when I did the mag tests,
> both sides acted normally, with a 10-20 rpm drop and no rough running!
>
> Got back and pulled #3 plugs... black and sooty again. #4 plugs just fine.
>
> So what just happened???
>
> Obviously, the #3 plug wires werent bad (and why should they have been),
they are
> now firing the #4 cylinder just fine.
>
> The stumbling and rough running disappeared. Why?
>
> The two #3 plugs are still getting black and sooty, EGT and CHT temps for
#3 still fine.
>
>
> R.
>
> Do not archive
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> --
> Regards, J.
>
> - Sonex #325 C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb
> - former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder, CH750 in progress
> - see both (and more!) at http://cleco.ca
>
> +-------------------------------+
> | J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp sci) |
> | email: jd at lawsonimaging.ca <http://lawsonimaging.ca> |
> | *NIX consulting, SysAdmin |
> | http://cleco.ca |
> +-------------------------------+
>
>
> I washed a sock. Then I put it in the dryer. When I took
> it out, it was gone.
> --- Steven Wright
>
>
> ==========
> -
> ine-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
> ==========
> MS -
> k">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> e -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
Regards, J.
- Sonex #325 C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb
- former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder, CH750 in progress
- see both (and more!) at http://cleco.ca
+-------------------------------+
| J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp sci) |
| email: jd at lawsonimaging.ca |
| *NIX consulting, SysAdmin |
| http://cleco.ca |
+-------------------------------+
The sky is falling...no, I'm tipping over backwards.
--- Steven Wright
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: CHT issues on a 3300 |
Jeff,
I reckon the angle that your oil cooler is presenting to the incoming air is
too great. A normal tube and fin radiator like that does NOT like any more
than 20 degrees before the air 'bounces' off. Less than 7 degrees is ideal.
Remind me, what instrumentation are you using to gain these numbers ?
We have had issues with a Dynon reading high....
Martin
On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 6:44 AM, Jeffrey J Paris
<jeffrey-j-paris@excite.com>wrote:
> Dear Jabiru 3300 Guru's,
>
> First of all thank you for all of your input I appreciate as I battle the
> heat demons in my cowl. Yesterday I spent the day working on my CHT cooling
> issues. I have attached some pictures for everyone to look at. Anyways in
> addition to adding some aluminum sheet which profiles and seals in inboard
> baffles to the cylinders I attempted to add airdams to the front of the
> baffles, per Nick Otterback's suggestion. In addition, I added some rubber
> stuffing to seal up the back of baffles and I added rubber washers over each
> sparkplug to seal up and air leaks from the plugs as they protrude through
> the old style baffles.
>
> First flight today yielded these numbers in cruise:
>
> RPM 2500-Note had to use to keep CHTs in at least the yellow range. All
> powered climbs yielded high temps approachin 350F. air temp at time of
> flight was 75 F and oil temp was 212F.
>
> Cylinder EGT (F) CHT (F)
> 1 1315 265
> 2 1271 330
> 3 1311 315
> 4 1353 315
> 5 1219 326
> 6 1338 292
>
> RPM 2400-Note had to use to keep CHTs in at least the yellow range. All
> powered climbs yielded high temps approachin 350F. In addition, I changed
> these items I removed the rubber from the back of the baffles, removed the
> butterfly baffles from underneath the cylinders, and added improved airdams
> to the fron of the 2,4,6 cylinder bank. Outside temp at flight was 88 F
> Oil Temp. 212F
>
> Cylinder EGT (F) CHT (F)
> 1 1285 256
> 2 1258 316
> 3 1282 318
> 4 1347 315
> 5 1204 271
>
> In a sense I have made some progress. However, I cannot do a normal rate
> of climb without cylinders 2,3,4,5 heading for the races towards 350F and I
> can't even imagine what temps I would see at max gross weight with a
> passenger. So I am obviously not getting the utility out of the aircraft as
> I would like.
>
> Thanks for your time and consideration. I just want to go out flying like
> the old days before I messed things up! LOL
>
> Cheers Jeff Paris 2 Jabs in the nest/both sick
>
>
> 2514.jpg Shows a "scoop" that I added to aid in my old style oil cooler
> Seems to work temps on cooler days 190F hot days 212F.
>
> 2515.jpg Top of engine looking forward.
>
> 2529.jpg I added some aluminum sheet, cut precisely to the cylinder
> profile to seal up both inside baffles.
>
> 2530.jpg Per Nick Otterback's / Flylightning suggestion I added an air
> dam to the front right baffle on the 2,4,6 cylinder bank
>
> 2531.jpg Shows the 1,3,5 cylinder baffle entrance
>
> 2532.jpg I experimented with adding the butterfly cylinder baffles to
> the underside of the cylinders, I tested them during my first flight today
> and removed them for the second flight
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. |
Given that the two plugs are fired by independant ignition sources, it does
suggest mixture.
Weird....
martin
On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 7:32 AM, j. davis <jd@lawsonimaging.ca> wrote:
>
> On 06/07/2011 04:45 PM, Martin Hone wrote:
>
>> J, maybe these plugs have always been black and sooty and it is a
>> parculiarity of your induction system.
>>
>> mh1
>>
>> Hmmm, maybe, but I think I would have noticed at plug change time. I
> always put all the plugs I remove into a
> labeled plug holder board I fabricated and examine them for differences.
> Also, I can't imagine that the 3300 intake manifold
> could be so selective that one particular cylinder's plugs are sooty/blac
k
> while all other cylinders have light tan plugs!
>
> I wonder if it's just a matter of time before those two plugs actually
> foul, and the rough, stumbling mag checks come back.
> ... except that that theory is repudiated by the first time I replaced
> those two sooty plugs with new plugs
> and the rough running was there *instantly*.
>
> So the question stands. What could cause either:
>
> - a single cylinder of six to run so rich as to actually foul *both* plug
s
>
> or
>
> - the two plugs of the single cylinder not to fire sufficiently to burn o
ff
> the charge
>
> ...keeping in mind the trouble-shooting items I have already eliminated..
.
>
> Thanks for the input!
>
> On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 4:26 AM, j. davis <jd@lawsonimaging.ca <mailto:
>> jd@lawsonimaging.ca>> wrote:
>>
>> jd@lawsonimaging.ca
>> <mailto:jd@lawsonimaging.ca>>
>>
>> On 06/07/2011 09:19 AM, Beckman, Rick wrote:
>>
>> -->
>>
>> J., you might want to replace the plug wire for that particular
>> cylinder. Cheap
>> elimination.
>>
>>
>> OK, this is weird. I swapped number three's plug wires for number
>> four's, just for
>> the heck of it.
>> Replaced the two sooty #3 cyl. plugs and went taxing. It felt smoothe
r
>> immediately,
>> and when I did the mag tests,
>> both sides acted normally, with a 10-20 rpm drop and no rough running
!
>>
>> Got back and pulled #3 plugs... black and sooty again. #4 plugs just
>> fine.
>>
>> So what just happened???
>>
>> Obviously, the #3 plug wires weren=99t bad (and why should they
have
>> been), they are
>> now firing the #4 cylinder just fine.
>>
>> The stumbling and rough running disappeared. Why?
>>
>> The two #3 plugs are still getting black and sooty, EGT and CHT temps
>> for #3 still fine.
>>
>>
>> R.
>>
>> Do not archive
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Regards, J.
>>
>> - Sonex #325 C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb
>> - former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder, CH750 in progress
>> - see both (and more!) at http://cleco.ca
>>
>> +-------------------------------+
>> | J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp sci) |
>> | email: jd at lawsonimaging.ca <http://lawsonimaging.ca> |
>> | *NIX consulting, SysAdmin |
>> | http://cleco.ca |
>> +-------------------------------+
>>
>>
>> I washed a sock. Then I put it in the dryer. When I took
>> it out, it was gone.
>> --- Steven Wright
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> -
>> ine-List" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
>> ==========
>> MS -
>> k">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> e -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>
>
> --
> Regards, J.
>
> - Sonex #325 C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb
> - former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder, CH750 in progress
> - see both (and more!) at http://cleco.ca
>
> +-------------------------------+
> +-------------------------------+
>
>
> The sky is falling...no, I'm tipping over backwards.
> --- Steven Wright
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] |
UNCLASSIFIED
It does sound like mixture.
Use in an aero engine is a little dangerous but an item such as a Gunson
Colourtune spark plug will determine the temperature of the burn in that
cylinder at particular RPM's and can be referenced to other cylinders.
The cause is another matter. You may find you have a significant
variation of mixtures.
I do think that I read that previous Jab installations had this issue
with variations/pooling.
Would not it be nice to be able to see the fuel mist inside the plenum
manifold at various RPM's on the ground and in flight.
________________________________
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Martin Hone
Sent: Wednesday, 8 June 2011 07:53
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle.
Given that the two plugs are fired by independant ignition sources, it
does suggest mixture.
Weird....
martin
On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 7:32 AM, j. davis <jd@lawsonimaging.ca> wrote:
<jd@lawsonimaging.ca>
On 06/07/2011 04:45 PM, Martin Hone wrote:
J, maybe these plugs have always been black and sooty
and it is a parculiarity of your induction system.
mh1
Hmmm, maybe, but I think I would have noticed at plug change
time. I always put all the plugs I remove into a
labeled plug holder board I fabricated and examine them for
differences. Also, I can't imagine that the 3300 intake manifold
could be so selective that one particular cylinder's plugs are
sooty/black while all other cylinders have light tan plugs!
I wonder if it's just a matter of time before those two plugs
actually foul, and the rough, stumbling mag checks come back.
... except that that theory is repudiated by the first time I
replaced those two sooty plugs with new plugs
and the rough running was there *instantly*.
So the question stands. What could cause either:
- a single cylinder of six to run so rich as to actually foul
*both* plugs
or
- the two plugs of the single cylinder not to fire sufficiently
to burn off the charge
...keeping in mind the trouble-shooting items I have already
eliminated...
Thanks for the input!
On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 4:26 AM, j. davis
<jd@lawsonimaging.ca <mailto:jd@lawsonimaging.ca>> wrote:
<jd@lawsonimaging.ca
<mailto:jd@lawsonimaging.ca>>
On 06/07/2011 09:19 AM, Beckman, Rick wrote:
-->
J., you might want to replace the plug wire for
that particular cylinder. Cheap
elimination.
OK, this is weird. I swapped number three's plug
wires for number four's, just for
the heck of it.
Replaced the two sooty #3 cyl. plugs and went taxing.
It felt smoother immediately,
and when I did the mag tests,
both sides acted normally, with a 10-20 rpm drop and
no rough running!
Got back and pulled #3 plugs... black and sooty
again. #4 plugs just fine.
So what just happened???
Obviously, the #3 plug wires weren't bad (and why
should they have been), they are
now firing the #4 cylinder just fine.
The stumbling and rough running disappeared. Why?
The two #3 plugs are still getting black and sooty,
EGT and CHT temps for #3 still fine.
R.
Do not archive
*
*
-- Regards, J.
- Sonex #325 C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip,
Aerocarb
- former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder, CH750 in
progress
- see both (and more!) at http://cleco.ca
+-------------------------------+
| J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp sci) |
| email: jd at lawsonimaging.ca
<http://lawsonimaging.ca> |
| *NIX consulting, SysAdmin |
| http://cleco.ca |
+-------------------------------+
I washed a sock. Then I put it in the dryer. When I
took
it out, it was gone.
--- Steven Wright
==========
-
ine-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
==========
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
==========
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
*
*
--
Regards, J.
- Sonex #325 C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb
- former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder, CH750 in progress
- see both (and more!) at http://cleco.ca
+-------------------------------+
| J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp sci) |
| email: jd at lawsonimaging.ca |
| *NIX consulting, SysAdmin |
| http://cleco.ca |
+-------------------------------+
The sky is falling...no, I'm tipping over backwards.
--- Steven Wright
==========
-
ine-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
==========
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
==========
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Department of Defence
and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the Crimes Act 1914.
If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact
the sender and delete the email.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] |
On 06/07/2011 06:22 PM, Sweeting, Ian MR wrote:
>
> *UNCLASSIFIED*
>
> It does sound like mixture.
> Use in an aero engine is a little dangerous but an item such as a Gunson Colourtune
> spark plug will determine the temperature of the burn in that cylinder at particular
> RPM's and can be referenced to other cylinders.
> The cause is another matter. You may find you have a significant variation of
mixtures.
> I do think that I read that previous Jab installations had this issue with
> variations/pooling.
Well, it is well known that the stock Jabiru manifold does not totally equally
distribute
the charge to all cylinders,
resulting in some range of EGTs. But to single a *lone* cylinder out? Unlikely.
And don't
forget, I've got over 100 hours
on this engine, and it's been just fine up to now and last fall, when it last flew.
What
possibly could have changed in the induction circuit
to make just one cylinder run *rich*?
Makes no sense to me.
> Would not it be nice to be able to see the fuel mist inside the plenum manifold
at
> various RPM's on the ground and in flight.
Lynn should have that going before long :-)
>
>
> On 06/07/2011 04:45 PM, Martin Hone wrote:
>
> J, maybe these plugs have always been black and sooty and it is a parculiarity
> of your induction system.
>
> mh1
>
> Hmmm, maybe, but I think I would have noticed at plug change time. I always
put all
> the plugs I remove into a
> labeled plug holder board I fabricated and examine them for differences.
Also, I
> can't imagine that the 3300 intake manifold
> could be so selective that one particular cylinder's plugs are sooty/black
while all
> other cylinders have light tan plugs!
>
> I wonder if it's just a matter of time before those two plugs actually foul,
and the
> rough, stumbling mag checks come back.
> ... except that that theory is repudiated by the first time I replaced those
two
> sooty plugs with new plugs
> and the rough running was there *instantly*.
>
> So the question stands. What could cause either:
>
> - a single cylinder of six to run so rich as to actually foul *both* plugs
>
> or
>
> - the two plugs of the single cylinder not to fire sufficiently to burn off
the charge
>
> ...keeping in mind the trouble-shooting items I have already eliminated...
>
> Thanks for the input!
>
--
Regards, J.
- Sonex #325 C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb
- former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder, CH750 in progress
- see both (and more!) at http://cleco.ca
+-------------------------------+
| J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp sci) |
| email: jd at lawsonimaging.ca |
| *NIX consulting, SysAdmin |
| http://cleco.ca |
+-------------------------------+
Last night the power went out. Good thing my camera had a
flash...I took 65 pictures of myself making a sandwich...My
neighbors thought it was lightning in my house, so they
called the cops.
--- Steven Wright
Message 12
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|
| Subject: | Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. |
J.Also check for broken valve spring,probably not on no.3
G
-----Original Message-----
From: j. davis <jd@lawsonimaging.ca>
Sent: Tue, Jun 7, 2011 2:22 pm
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle.
On 06/07/2011 08:59 AM, zeprep251@aol.com wrote:
> J,
> Check the air gap between flywheel and mags
Yeah, forgot to state it explicitely, but of course I set the air gaps when
I
re-installed
the spider.Also
magic markered the magnets to witness any potential future contact.
> ,then make certain that no plug wires have been rubbed thru by contact wi
th
the flywheel
> or pinched when the spider was re-installed.
It would be pretty hard for the plug wires to get into contact with the fly
wheel
or
pinched by the spider, they're quite
far removed by the length of the distributor and cap! Regardless, all plug
wires
were
thoroughly checked.
> Air intake free of rodent nests?Good hunting!
Just have a newly cleaned and oiled K&N filter on the aerocarb, no other ai
r
intake, as such.
Thanks, anyway!
> G.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: j. davis <jd@lawsonimaging.ca>
> To: jabiruengine-list <jabiruengine-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Mon, Jun 6, 2011 7:34 pm
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle.
>
> --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "j. davis"<jd@lawsonimaging.ca
<mailto:jd@lawsonimaging.ca>>
>
> Greetings Jabiru community...
>
> I'm having a puzzling issue with my 3300 (early hyd. lifters, Aerocarb, 1
00
> hrs.) that I'm
> hoping
> someone on this list will be able to help me with. I'll try to touch on t
he
> pertinent facts:
>
> - recently completed a 100 hour inspection. Engine was fine last fall whe
n
last
> flying.
> - new plugs, standard NGK plugs, anti-seize. All 12 plugs that came out w
ere
> essentially
> tan in colour.
> - removed distributors and alternator spider to get at flywheel bolts, bu
t
never
>
> disconnected the plug
> wires at the distributors. No sign of anything amiss inside, no dust,
rotors
> look fine.
> - Leak-down test (warm engine) good for all cyls, lowest was 72/80.
> - during initial ground ops after all was back together, the engine seeme
d to
> run rough.
> - mag tests showed about 40 rpm rpm when r.h. coil grounded via 'mag' swi
tch,
> but slightly
> rough running.
> - when l.h. coil grounded, *very* rough and stumbly (is that a word?), wi
th
> about a 100
> rpm drop.
> - coil primary and secondary resistance measurements were close to specs.
> - after checking all the obvious stuff I could think of (h.t. wire seatin
g,
> etc.), I
> removed the plugs
> and saw that all were nicely tan with the exception of *both* cyl. #3
plugs,
> which were
> black and sooty.
> - so I replaced those two plugs and taxied the plane, with the mixture
> aggressively
> leaned, standard procedure the way my aerocarb is set up.
> - monitored the EGT and CHT temps on my E.I.S 6000, saw that cylinder #3'
s
temps
> were
> right in line
> with all the other cyls. Mag checks similar to before, still rough,
> *especially rough*
> with l.h. coil grounded.
> - removed the two #3 plugs, sure enough, they were black and sooty.
> - repeated a leak-down test on all cyls, cyl. #3 was [again] 80/76
>
> So now I'm running out of ideas. What could explain the two sooty plugs?
I'm
> assuming at
> this point these
> plugs are related to the rough running, but not sure why one coil would b
e
worse
> than the
> other.
>
> So now I'm out of ideas, so I'm plumbing the collective Jabiru conscience
less
> for
> ideas/explanations! I think I've included all the important data points,
but
> please don't
> hesitate to ask for more info, or clarification. I hesitate to fly the pl
ane
> until I get
> to the bottom of this.
>
> Thanks for listening! Hope someone can help!
>
> --
> Regards, J.
>
> - Sonex #325 C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb
> - former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder, CH750 in progress
> - see both (and more!) athttp://cleco.ca
>
> +-------------------------------+
> +-------------------------------+
>
>
> I xeroxed my watch. Now I have time to spare.
> --- Steven Wright
>
>
> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-Li
st
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
Regards, J.
- Sonex #325 C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb
- former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder, CH750 in progress
- see both (and more!) at http://cleco.ca
+-------------------------------+
| J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp sci) |
| email: jd at lawsonimaging.ca |
| *NIX consulting, SysAdmin |
| http://cleco.ca |
+-------------------------------+
There's a pizza place near where I live that sells only
slices. In the back you can see a guy tossing a triangle
in the air.
--- Steven Wright
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle. |
?? A broken valve spring would pass a leak-down test?
zeprep251@aol.com wrote:
>J.Also check for broken valve spring,probably not on no.3
> G
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: j. davis <jd@lawsonimaging.ca>
>To: jabiruengine-list <jabiruengine-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Tue, Jun 7, 2011 2:22 pm
>Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle.
>
>
><jd@lawsonimaging.ca>
>
>On 06/07/2011 08:59 AM, zeprep251@aol.com wrote:
>> J,
>> Check the air gap between flywheel and mags
>
>Yeah, forgot to state it explicitely, but of course I set the air gaps
>when I
>re-installed
>the spider.Also
>magic markered the magnets to witness any potential future contact.
>
>> ,then make certain that no plug wires have been rubbed thru by
>contact with
>the flywheel
>> or pinched when the spider was re-installed.
>
>It would be pretty hard for the plug wires to get into contact with the
>flywheel
>or
>pinched by the spider, they're quite
>far removed by the length of the distributor and cap! Regardless, all
>plug wires
>were
>thoroughly checked.
>
>> Air intake free of rodent nests?Good hunting!
>
>Just have a newly cleaned and oiled K&N filter on the aerocarb, no
>other air
>intake, as such.
>
>Thanks, anyway!
>
>> G.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: j. davis <jd@lawsonimaging.ca>
>> To: jabiruengine-list <jabiruengine-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Mon, Jun 6, 2011 7:34 pm
>> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle.
>>
>> --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "j.
>davis"<jd@lawsonimaging.ca
><mailto:jd@lawsonimaging.ca>>
>>
>> Greetings Jabiru community...
>>
>> I'm having a puzzling issue with my 3300 (early hyd. lifters,
>Aerocarb, 100
>> hrs.) that I'm
>> hoping
>> someone on this list will be able to help me with. I'll try to touch
>on the
>> pertinent facts:
>>
>> - recently completed a 100 hour inspection. Engine was fine last fall
>when
>last
>> flying.
>> - new plugs, standard NGK plugs, anti-seize. All 12 plugs that came
>out were
>> essentially
>> tan in colour.
>> - removed distributors and alternator spider to get at flywheel
>bolts, but
>never
>>
>> disconnected the plug
>> wires at the distributors. No sign of anything amiss inside, no
>dust,
>rotors
>> look fine.
>> - Leak-down test (warm engine) good for all cyls, lowest was 72/80.
>> - during initial ground ops after all was back together, the engine
>seemed to
>> run rough.
>> - mag tests showed about 40 rpm rpm when r.h. coil grounded via 'mag'
>switch,
>> but slightly
>> rough running.
>> - when l.h. coil grounded, *very* rough and stumbly (is that a
>word?), with
>> about a 100
>> rpm drop.
>> - coil primary and secondary resistance measurements were close to
>specs.
>> - after checking all the obvious stuff I could think of (h.t. wire
>seating,
>> etc.), I
>> removed the plugs
>> and saw that all were nicely tan with the exception of *both*
>cyl. #3
>plugs,
>> which were
>> black and sooty.
>> - so I replaced those two plugs and taxied the plane, with the
>mixture
>> aggressively
>> leaned, standard procedure the way my aerocarb is set up.
>> - monitored the EGT and CHT temps on my E.I.S 6000, saw that cylinder
>#3's
>temps
>> were
>> right in line
>> with all the other cyls. Mag checks similar to before, still
>rough,
>> *especially rough*
>> with l.h. coil grounded.
>> - removed the two #3 plugs, sure enough, they were black and sooty.
>> - repeated a leak-down test on all cyls, cyl. #3 was [again] 80/76
>>
>> So now I'm running out of ideas. What could explain the two sooty
>plugs? I'm
>> assuming at
>> this point these
>> plugs are related to the rough running, but not sure why one coil
>would be
>worse
>> than the
>> other.
>>
>> So now I'm out of ideas, so I'm plumbing the collective Jabiru
>conscienceless
>> for
>> ideas/explanations! I think I've included all the important data
>points, but
>> please don't
>> hesitate to ask for more info, or clarification. I hesitate to fly
>the plane
>> until I get
>> to the bottom of this.
>>
>> Thanks for listening! Hope someone can help!
>>
>> --
>> Regards, J.
>>
>> - Sonex #325 C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb
>> - former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder, CH750 in progress
>> - see both (and more!) athttp://cleco.ca
>>
>> +-------------------------------+
>> | J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp sci) |
>> | email: jd at lawsonimaging.ca |
>> | *NIX consulting, SysAdmin |
>> |http://cleco.ca |
>> +-------------------------------+
>>
>>
>> I xeroxed my watch. Now I have time to spare.
>> --- Steven Wright
>>
>>
>> ist"
>target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>
>
>--
>Regards, J.
>
>- Sonex #325 C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb
>- former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder, CH750 in progress
>- see both (and more!) at http://cleco.ca
>
>+-------------------------------+
>| J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp sci) |
>| email: jd at lawsonimaging.ca |
>| *NIX consulting, SysAdmin |
>| http://cleco.ca |
>+-------------------------------+
>
>
>There's a pizza place near where I live that sells only
>slices. In the back you can see a guy tossing a triangle
>in the air.
> --- Steven Wright
>
>
>
--
Sent from my Android tablet using K-9 Mail. Please excuse any typos! J.
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