Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:33 AM - Re: Voltmeter advice needed (FLYaDIVE)
2. 10:11 AM - Re: Voltmeter advice needed (Lynn Matteson)
3. 01:25 PM - Re: Voltmeter advice needed (Martin Hone)
4. 02:21 PM - Re: Voltmeter advice needed (Pete Krotje)
5. 02:50 PM - Re: Voltmeter advice needed (Martin Hone)
6. 03:43 PM - Re: Voltmeter advice needed (Pete Krotje)
7. 03:59 PM - Re: Voltmeter advice needed (Martin Hone)
8. 04:56 PM - Voltmeter advice needed (BobsV35B@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Voltmeter advice needed |
You are RIGHT Lynn:
We put a man on the moon with analog gauges and NOW we fixate on digital...
For my $2.00 ... Have you ever flown with someone that has a DIGITAL TACH?
Watch their EYES - How Long it takes them to set a RPM.
How fixated they are on getting the RPM right ON!
How Long there eyes are INSIDE the cockpit rather than LQQKing OUTSIDE.
Oil Temps are the SAME ISSUE... On climb-out ask them what is their oil
Temp? And again watch their eyes... and Lissen to what they report.
186.7 F instead of IN THE GREEN or between 180 & 190 F
WAIT till they have an emergency situation and they once again become
fixated on THE NUMBERS!
It is like driving a car and talking on the cell phone.
BOTH operations require the same side of the brain and
they compete with each other.
Same is true of DIGITAL Vs ANALOG. The DIGITAL requires you to THINK and
REMEMBER numbers as apposed to GO/NO-GO... GREEN, YELLOW & RED.
Ever since birth we are ANALOG and today they are saying babies like Black &
White and Round and Square.
Back to the K.I.S.S. M.E. Principal.
Barry
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 6:30 PM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the offer, Paul. The problem with round gauges is I'm running
> out of room on the panel...short of hanging something below, and that's not
> all that roomy either. I thought that the digital rectangular readout would
> be smaller, and I thought I'd have more choices of where to put it. After I
> meet with my local elec-guru tomorrow, I'll have a better idea of what to
> do.
>
> Until the last few years, I'd have bent over backwards to install a steam
> gauge/round gauge, hating the word digital (we had a guy in the office who
> kept repeating "It's a digital world, it's a digital world", until I'd have
> liked to strangle him...but I'm getting better, The doctors say they'll
> release me if I can say "I love digital" without gagging. : )
>
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062
> Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
> Status: flying with "Ramcharger" intake manifold...1139 hrs (since
> 3-27-2006)
>
>
> On Jul 15, 2011, at 3:41 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Lynn,
>>
>> I know the round gauge sounds old fashioned, but if you get stuck on the
>> fancy new digital approach you might find the round gauge is really very
>> simple to do. All you need to know is the range of readings you want and
>> then you can get a gauge that reads that range. It is quite normal for a
>> voltage gauge to read millivolts, and you can convert your input signal to
>> millivolts to read the way you want.
>>
>> If you decide you want to go that way and want a little help picking out
>> the gauge and resistors just fire me an email.
>>
>> Paul
>> Camas, Wa
>> (Retired Electrical Engineer)
>>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Voltmeter advice needed |
I guess the best...or worst...case is the round gauges that show
digital readouts, then have a ring of leds around the outer face that
light up according to where on that round face an analog pointer
might be pointing. I think this is an electrical engineer trying to
impress the buying public.
I recall that some race car drivers would use analog gauges, but
orient the gauge so that under normal conditions, the needle would be
straight up. This way a glance at the panel should reveal any needle
that was NOT straight up, and the driver could then concentrate on
that reading only.
When I was learning to fly in my Kitfox, I felt the need to nail the
2000 rpm mag check....1990 needed a bit more...oops, that's
2010....finally my instructor said "are we gonna fly or are you gonna
spend all day getting that rpm just right?"
In my case, I can see at a glance if all four of my (digital) EGT
readings are in the ballpark, but if I had analog, I'd be making a
larger scan of the four gauges. So for me, right now during my engine-
testing phase (when am I NOT testing something?), the digital
readings are more precise, and that's what I want. Later on, I might
be content to look at one analog gauge, and mark it with a green
band, just like certified planes.
And yes, all planes flying in this area had better be watching out
for me, 'cause my eyes are inside a lot!....NOT a good thing, when it
was as hazy as it was flying earlier. I'd hate to think about some
other dumbbell out there doing the same thing as me....and we've
already had 2, if not 3, experimentals crash this last 10 days or so.
As for the voltmeter, I just ordered a panel meter that measures less
than an 1" by 2", and mounts with a 7/32" hole through the panel. It
has 0.5" LCD display height. This is perfect for the job at hand, and
I can mount it where I can see it and the MAP pressure in one glance.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with "Ramcharger" intake manifold...1141 hrs (since
3-27-2006)
On Jul 18, 2011, at 9:28 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> You are RIGHT Lynn:
>
> We put a man on the moon with analog gauges and NOW we fixate on
> digital... For my $2.00 ... Have you ever flown with someone that
> has a DIGITAL TACH?
> Watch their EYES - How Long it takes them to set a RPM.
> How fixated they are on getting the RPM right ON!
> How Long there eyes are INSIDE the cockpit rather than LQQKing
> OUTSIDE.
> Oil Temps are the SAME ISSUE... On climb-out ask them what is
> their oil Temp? And again watch their eyes... and Lissen to what
> they report.
> 186.7 F instead of IN THE GREEN or between 180 & 190 F
> WAIT till they have an emergency situation and they once again
> become fixated on THE NUMBERS!
>
> It is like driving a car and talking on the cell phone. BOTH
> operations require the same side of the brain and they compete with
> each other.
> Same is true of DIGITAL Vs ANALOG. The DIGITAL requires you to
> THINK and REMEMBER numbers as apposed to GO/NO-GO... GREEN, YELLOW
> & RED.
> Ever since birth we are ANALOG and today they are saying babies
> like Black & White and Round and Square.
> Back to the K.I.S.S. M.E. Principal.
>
> Barry
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Voltmeter advice needed |
I think we need to differentiate between digital technology and digital
display. To me, a digital display is showing numbers. Next to useless on a
tacho. However, a display of say, CHT's in a bar graph format makes a lot
of sense. You can tell by the height of each bar what the temp might be, and
readily compare them.
Horses for courses
Martin
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 2:48 AM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
>
> I guess the best...or worst...case is the round gauges that show digital
> readouts, then have a ring of leds around the outer face that light up
> according to where on that round face an analog pointer might be pointing. I
> think this is an electrical engineer trying to impress the buying public.
> I recall that some race car drivers would use analog gauges, but orient the
> gauge so that under normal conditions, the needle would be straight up. This
> way a glance at the panel should reveal any needle that was NOT straight up,
> and the driver could then concentrate on that reading only.
>
> When I was learning to fly in my Kitfox, I felt the need to nail the 2000
> rpm mag check....1990 needed a bit more...oops, that's 2010....finally my
> instructor said "are we gonna fly or are you gonna spend all day getting
> that rpm just right?"
>
> In my case, I can see at a glance if all four of my (digital) EGT readings
> are in the ballpark, but if I had analog, I'd be making a larger scan of the
> four gauges. So for me, right now during my engine-testing phase (when am I
> NOT testing something?), the digital readings are more precise, and that's
> what I want. Later on, I might be content to look at one analog gauge, and
> mark it with a green band, just like certified planes.
>
> And yes, all planes flying in this area had better be watching out for me,
> 'cause my eyes are inside a lot!....NOT a good thing, when it was as hazy as
> it was flying earlier. I'd hate to think about some other dumbbell out there
> doing the same thing as me....and we've already had 2, if not 3,
> experimentals crash this last 10 days or so.
>
> As for the voltmeter, I just ordered a panel meter that measures less than
> an 1" by 2", and mounts with a 7/32" hole through the panel. It has 0.5" LCD
> display height. This is perfect for the job at hand, and I can mount it
> where I can see it and the MAP pressure in one glance.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062
> Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
> Status: flying with "Ramcharger" intake manifold...1141 hrs (since
> 3-27-2006)
>
>
> On Jul 18, 2011, at 9:28 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
> You are RIGHT Lynn:
>>
>> We put a man on the moon with analog gauges and NOW we fixate on
>> digital... For my $2.00 ... Have you ever flown with someone that has a
>> DIGITAL TACH?
>> Watch their EYES - How Long it takes them to set a RPM.
>> How fixated they are on getting the RPM right ON!
>> How Long there eyes are INSIDE the cockpit rather than LQQKing OUTSIDE.
>> Oil Temps are the SAME ISSUE... On climb-out ask them what is their oil
>> Temp? And again watch their eyes... and Lissen to what they report.
>> 186.7 F instead of IN THE GREEN or between 180 & 190 F
>> WAIT till they have an emergency situation and they once again become
>> fixated on THE NUMBERS!
>>
>> It is like driving a car and talking on the cell phone. BOTH operations
>> require the same side of the brain and they compete with each other.
>> Same is true of DIGITAL Vs ANALOG. The DIGITAL requires you to THINK and
>> REMEMBER numbers as apposed to GO/NO-GO... GREEN, YELLOW & RED.
>> Ever since birth we are ANALOG and today they are saying babies like Black
>> & White and Round and Square.
>> Back to the K.I.S.S. M.E. Principal.
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Voltmeter advice needed |
I disagree strongly. Digital display tachometers are easy to read at a
glance and return very accurate information. At a glance I can see (for
example) that I=99m getting 2830 rpm climbing out at 80 knots in
our J230. If it were an analog display I=99d see at a glance that
I have a little over 2800 rpm =93 maybe 2850. Why not be precise
at a glance? It takes more time to stare at a analog display to
determine which small line the needle rests on that to take a quick
glance at a digital display and see a precise number.
Same thing with engine instruments. I get calls all the time about
EGT=99s and the customer tells me he=99s =9Cin the
green=9D. When I ask what temp his EGT=99s really are he
can=99t be precise. Some callers don=99t even know where
the green starts and stops. To get a carb tuned correctly you need
precise information to straddle that fine line between good economy and
engine damage. =9CIn the green=9D just doesn=99t cut
it.
Most of the better engine digital displays can show a trend line. At a
glance I can tell if my CHT=99s are rising or if they are falling.
Nice to know at a glance that when you level off for cruise that temps
begin falling after the climb but CRITICAL to know if they continue to
rise. With an analog display you might discern the trend if you can
remember the temp from when you looked last and can remember when that
last look occurred. You might even get distracted from flying the plane
while intently staring at the analog temp display to see if the needle
moves.
In experimental aircraft where often cowl development may not be the
highest priority and where R&D budgets do not exist a good monitor is
essential to report what is going on in the engine compartment. The
cost is less than comparable analog instruments and the capabilities are
significantly above.
On Jul 18, 2011, at 9:28 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
You are RIGHT Lynn:
We put a man on the moon with analog gauges and NOW we fixate on
digital... For my $2.00 ... Have you ever flown with someone that has a
DIGITAL TACH?
Watch their EYES - How Long it takes them to set a RPM.
How fixated they are on getting the RPM right ON!
How Long there eyes are INSIDE the cockpit rather than LQQKing OUTSIDE.
Oil Temps are the SAME ISSUE... On climb-out ask them what is their oil
Temp? And again watch their eyes... and Lissen to what they report.
186.7 F instead of IN THE GREEN or between 180 & 190 F
WAIT till they have an emergency situation and they once again become
fixated on THE NUMBERS!
It is like driving a car and talking on the cell phone. BOTH operations
require the same side of the brain and they compete with each other.
Same is true of DIGITAL Vs ANALOG. The DIGITAL requires you to THINK
and REMEMBER numbers as apposed to GO/NO-GO... GREEN, YELLOW & RED.
Ever since birth we are ANALOG and today they are saying babies like
Black & White and Round and Square.
Back to the K.I.S.S. M.E. Principal.
Barry
-
ine-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Voltmeter advice needed |
Peter,
I guess that it also depends on what you are most comfortable with. Digita
l
anything is supposed to be more reliable and accurate. For things that don'
t
move a lot, a digital display is easy to read. For me, digital tachs are a
PITA - I like to see at a glance if the needles are pointing the right
direction during critical phases of flight, without concentrating on what
the gauges are saying precisely. A number of digital instruments using bar
graphs or a ring of lights replicating where a needle would be pointing are
a good compromise. These days, we certainly are spoilt for choice and
information.
Also, I just wonder if your last line applies to Jabiru..... ;-)
Cheers
Marty
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 7:17 AM, Pete Krotje <pete@usjabiru.com> wrote:
> I disagree strongly. Digital display tachometers are easy to read at a
> glance and return very accurate information. At a glance I can see (for
> example) that I=99m getting 2830 rpm climbing out at 80 knots in ou
r J230. If
> it were an analog display I=99d see at a glance that I have a littl
e over 2800
> rpm =93 maybe 2850. Why not be precise at a glance? It takes more
time to
> stare at a analog display to determine which small line the needle rests
on
> that to take a quick glance at a digital display and see a precise number
.
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> Same thing with engine instruments. I get calls all the time about EGT
=99s
> and the customer tells me he=99s =9Cin the green=9D. W
hen I ask what temp his
> EGT=99s really are he can=99t be precise. Some callers don
=99t even know where
> the green starts and stops. To get a carb tuned correctly you need preci
se
> information to straddle that fine line between good economy and engine
> damage. =9CIn the green=9D just doesn=99t cut it. ***
*
>
> ** **
>
> Most of the better engine digital displays can show a trend line. At a
> glance I can tell if my CHT=99s are rising or if they are falling.
Nice to
> know at a glance that when you level off for cruise that temps begin fall
ing
> after the climb but CRITICAL to know if they continue to rise. With an
> analog display you might discern the trend if you can remember the temp f
rom
> when you looked last and can remember when that last look occurred. You
> might even get distracted from flying the plane while intently staring at
> the analog temp display to see if the needle moves.****
>
> ** **
>
> In experimental aircraft where often cowl development may not be the
> highest priority and where R&D budgets do not exist a good monitor is
> essential to report what is going on in the engine compartment. The cost
is
> less than comparable analog instruments and the capabilities are
> significantly above.****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
>
> On Jul 18, 2011, at 9:28 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:****
>
> You are RIGHT Lynn:
>
> We put a man on the moon with analog gauges and NOW we fixate on digital.
..
> For my $2.00 ... Have you ever flown with someone that has a DIGITAL TACH
?
> Watch their EYES - How Long it takes them to set a RPM.
> How fixated they are on getting the RPM right ON!
> How Long there eyes are INSIDE the cockpit rather than LQQKing OUTSIDE.
> Oil Temps are the SAME ISSUE... On climb-out ask them what is their oil
> Temp? And again watch their eyes... and Lissen to what they report.
> 186.7 F instead of IN THE GREEN or between 180 & 190 F
> WAIT till they have an emergency situation and they once again become
> fixated on THE NUMBERS!
>
> It is like driving a car and talking on the cell phone. BOTH operations
> require the same side of the brain and they compete with each other.
> Same is true of DIGITAL Vs ANALOG. The DIGITAL requires you to THINK and
> REMEMBER numbers as apposed to GO/NO-GO... GREEN, YELLOW & RED.
> Ever since birth we are ANALOG and today they are saying babies like Blac
k
> & White and Round and Square.
> Back to the K.I.S.S. M.E. Principal.
>
> Barry****
>
>
> ========================
===========
> -
> ine-List" target="_blank">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
> ========================
===========
> MS -
> k">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> e -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ========================
===========
>
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Voltmeter advice needed |
Actually my last line applies to many kit and airframe makers other
than Jabiru. Jabiru=99s cowl design allows for excellent cooling
in most all conditions. Example =93 we completed a new J230 last
week and first flights happened on a day when OAT was 100 F at our
airport. On the first climb to 3500 MSL from our 800 ft MSL runway top
CHT temp was on cylinder 5 at 368 F. Well within the 392 F limit.
Further flights produced only lower temps. Our new demo J230 with 12
hours on it produced a top temp of 323 F on the same day. In cruise at
3500 ft temps are all below 300 F when OAT at 3500 ft is 85 F.
We pay attention to our carb tuning and cylinder to cylinder CHT tuning
by adjusting deflectors we put in the cooling ducts. We pay attention
and make adjustments to cylinder to cylinder EGT=99s
We=99ve got it down now mostly so that we don=99t need to do
much adjusting any more. Oil temps in cruise run 185 F on a hot day.
Maybe that=99s why on the 250 aircraft we=99ve built in the
last few years we don=99t seem to have all these head problems,
through bolt breakage and other issues that we hear about from many
other places. Our digital instruments guide our customers in their
engine operation so as to keep operation within parameters.
We have several flight school aircraft whos=99 engines are coming
up on the 1000 hour top overhaul before year=99s end. We only
hear from those owners when they need distributor caps and rotors or
some other minor consumable parts. Compare that to a fight school in
Australia that have had to replace engines four times in their fleet
over the same accumulation of hours. Is it design or is it operation?
We do have engine problems with some kit and LSA aircraft where cowl
design could use improvement. Probably 75% of all our engine problems
come from two makes of aircraft. Cowl design needs improvement and the
operating instructions could use more development as well.
Having sold nearly a third of all Jabiru engines over the last 12 years
I think we=99ve had some solid exposure to how they operate and
gained solid knowledge on how to keep them healthy. Digital display
instruments are critical to that endeavor.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Martin Hone
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Voltmeter advice needed
Peter,
I guess that it also depends on what you are most comfortable with.
Digital anything is supposed to be more reliable and accurate. For
things that don't move a lot, a digital display is easy to read. For
me, digital tachs are a PITA - I like to see at a glance if the needles
are pointing the right direction during critical phases of flight,
without concentrating on what the gauges are saying precisely. A number
of digital instruments using bar graphs or a ring of lights replicating
where a needle would be pointing are a good compromise. These days, we
certainly are spoilt for choice and information.
Also, I just wonder if your last line applies to Jabiru..... ;-)
Cheers
Marty
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 7:17 AM, Pete Krotje <pete@usjabiru.com> wrote:
I disagree strongly. Digital display tachometers are easy to read at a
glance and return very accurate information. At a glance I can see (for
example) that I=99m getting 2830 rpm climbing out at 80 knots in
our J230. If it were an analog display I=99d see at a glance that
I have a little over 2800 rpm =93 maybe 2850. Why not be precise
at a glance? It takes more time to stare at a analog display to
determine which small line the needle rests on that to take a quick
glance at a digital display and see a precise number.
Same thing with engine instruments. I get calls all the time about
EGT=99s and the customer tells me he=99s =9Cin the
green=9D. When I ask what temp his EGT=99s really are he
can=99t be precise. Some callers don=99t even know where
the green starts and stops. To get a carb tuned correctly you need
precise information to straddle that fine line between good economy and
engine damage. =9CIn the green=9D just doesn=99t cut
it.
Most of the better engine digital displays can show a trend line. At a
glance I can tell if my CHT=99s are rising or if they are falling.
Nice to know at a glance that when you level off for cruise that temps
begin falling after the climb but CRITICAL to know if they continue to
rise. With an analog display you might discern the trend if you can
remember the temp from when you looked last and can remember when that
last look occurred. You might even get distracted from flying the plane
while intently staring at the analog temp display to see if the needle
moves.
In experimental aircraft where often cowl development may not be the
highest priority and where R&D budgets do not exist a good monitor is
essential to report what is going on in the engine compartment. The
cost is less than comparable analog instruments and the capabilities are
significantly above.
On Jul 18, 2011, at 9:28 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
You are RIGHT Lynn:
We put a man on the moon with analog gauges and NOW we fixate on
digital... For my $2.00 ... Have you ever flown with someone that has a
DIGITAL TACH?
Watch their EYES - How Long it takes them to set a RPM.
How fixated they are on getting the RPM right ON!
How Long there eyes are INSIDE the cockpit rather than LQQKing OUTSIDE.
Oil Temps are the SAME ISSUE... On climb-out ask them what is their oil
Temp? And again watch their eyes... and Lissen to what they report.
186.7 F instead of IN THE GREEN or between 180 & 190 F
WAIT till they have an emergency situation and they once again become
fixated on THE NUMBERS!
It is like driving a car and talking on the cell phone. BOTH operations
require the same side of the brain and they compete with each other.
Same is true of DIGITAL Vs ANALOG. The DIGITAL requires you to THINK
and REMEMBER numbers as apposed to GO/NO-GO... GREEN, YELLOW & RED.
Ever since birth we are ANALOG and today they are saying babies like
Black & White and Round and Square.
Back to the K.I.S.S. M.E. Principal.
Barry
-
ine-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
ist"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Voltmeter advice needed |
Thanks for those informed comments Peter. It is good to know that a proper
installation will have every chance of success, though in my experience eve
n
a factory Jab installation will not guarantee it.. Maybe the factory shoul
d
add your procedures and operating instructions to the information file give
n
to new owners/builders.
Cheers
Martin
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 8:40 AM, Pete Krotje <pete@usjabiru.com> wrote:
> Actually my last line applies to many kit and airframe makers other than
> Jabiru. Jabiru=99s cowl design allows for excellent cooling in mo
st all
> conditions. Example =93 we completed a new J230 last week and firs
t flights
> happened on a day when OAT was 100 F at our airport. On the first climb
to
> 3500 MSL from our 800 ft MSL runway top CHT temp was on cylinder 5 at 368
> F. Well within the 392 F limit. Further flights produced only lower
> temps. Our new demo J230 with 12 hours on it produced a top temp of 323
F
> on the same day. In cruise at 3500 ft temps are all below 300 F when OAT
at
> 3500 ft is 85 F.****
>
> ** **
>
> We pay attention to our carb tuning and cylinder to cylinder CHT tuning b
y
> adjusting deflectors we put in the cooling ducts. We pay attention and m
ake
> adjustments to cylinder to cylinder EGT=99s We=99ve got it d
own now mostly so
> that we don=99t need to do much adjusting any more. Oil temps in c
ruise run
> 185 F on a hot day. Maybe that=99s why on the 250 aircraft we
=99ve built in the
> last few years we don=99t seem to have all these head problems, thr
ough bolt
> breakage and other issues that we hear about from many other places. Our
> digital instruments guide our customers in their engine operation so as t
o
> keep operation within parameters.****
>
> ** **
>
> We have several flight school aircraft whos=99 engines are coming u
p on the
> 1000 hour top overhaul before year=99s end. We only hear from thos
e owners
> when they need distributor caps and rotors or some other minor consumable
> parts. Compare that to a fight school in Australia that have had to repl
ace
> engines four times in their fleet over the same accumulation of hours. I
s
> it design or is it operation?****
>
> ** **
>
> We do have engine problems with some kit and LSA aircraft where cowl
> design could use improvement. Probably 75% of all our engine problems co
me
> from two makes of aircraft. Cowl design needs improvement and the operat
ing
> instructions could use more development as well. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Having sold nearly a third of all Jabiru engines over the last 12 years I
> think we=99ve had some solid exposure to how they operate and gaine
d solid
> knowledge on how to keep them healthy. Digital display instruments are
> critical to that endeavor.****
>
> ** **
>
> Pete ****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Martin Hone
> *Sent:* Monday, July 18, 2011 4:47 PM
> *To:* jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: JabiruEngine-List: Voltmeter advice needed****
>
> ** **
>
> Peter,****
>
> ** **
>
> I guess that it also depends on what you are most comfortable with.
> Digital anything is supposed to be more reliable and accurate. For thing
s
> that don't move a lot, a digital display is easy to read. For me, digita
l
> tachs are a PITA - I like to see at a glance if the needles are pointing
the
> right direction during critical phases of flight, without concentrating o
n
> what the gauges are saying precisely. A number of digital instruments us
ing
> bar graphs or a ring of lights replicating where a needle would be pointi
ng
> are a good compromise. These days, we certainly are spoilt for choice an
d
> information.****
>
> ** **
>
> Also, I just wonder if your last line applies to Jabiru..... ;-)****
>
> ** **
>
> Cheers****
>
> ** **
>
> Marty****
>
> On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 7:17 AM, Pete Krotje <pete@usjabiru.com> wrote:**
*
> *
>
> I disagree strongly. Digital display tachometers are easy to read at a
> glance and return very accurate information. At a glance I can see (for
> example) that I=99m getting 2830 rpm climbing out at 80 knots in ou
r J230. If
> it were an analog display I=99d see at a glance that I have a littl
e over 2800
> rpm =93 maybe 2850. Why not be precise at a glance? It takes more
time to
> stare at a analog display to determine which small line the needle rests
on
> that to take a quick glance at a digital display and see a precise number
.
> ****
>
> ****
>
> Same thing with engine instruments. I get calls all the time about EGT
=99s
> and the customer tells me he=99s =9Cin the green=9D. W
hen I ask what temp his
> EGT=99s really are he can=99t be precise. Some callers don
=99t even know where
> the green starts and stops. To get a carb tuned correctly you need preci
se
> information to straddle that fine line between good economy and engine
> damage. =9CIn the green=9D just doesn=99t cut it. ***
*
>
> ****
>
> Most of the better engine digital displays can show a trend line. At a
> glance I can tell if my CHT=99s are rising or if they are falling.
Nice to
> know at a glance that when you level off for cruise that temps begin fall
ing
> after the climb but CRITICAL to know if they continue to rise. With an
> analog display you might discern the trend if you can remember the temp f
rom
> when you looked last and can remember when that last look occurred. You
> might even get distracted from flying the plane while intently staring at
> the analog temp display to see if the needle moves.****
>
> ****
>
> In experimental aircraft where often cowl development may not be the
> highest priority and where R&D budgets do not exist a good monitor is
> essential to report what is going on in the engine compartment. The cost
is
> less than comparable analog instruments and the capabilities are
> significantly above.****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
>
> On Jul 18, 2011, at 9:28 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:****
>
> You are RIGHT Lynn:
>
> We put a man on the moon with analog gauges and NOW we fixate on digital.
..
> For my $2.00 ... Have you ever flown with someone that has a DIGITAL TACH
?
> Watch their EYES - How Long it takes them to set a RPM.
> How fixated they are on getting the RPM right ON!
> How Long there eyes are INSIDE the cockpit rather than LQQKing OUTSIDE.
> Oil Temps are the SAME ISSUE... On climb-out ask them what is their oil
> Temp? And again watch their eyes... and Lissen to what they report.
> 186.7 F instead of IN THE GREEN or between 180 & 190 F
> WAIT till they have an emergency situation and they once again become
> fixated on THE NUMBERS!
>
> It is like driving a car and talking on the cell phone. BOTH operations
> require the same side of the brain and they compete with each other.
> Same is true of DIGITAL Vs ANALOG. The DIGITAL requires you to THINK and
> REMEMBER numbers as apposed to GO/NO-GO... GREEN, YELLOW & RED.
> Ever since birth we are ANALOG and today they are saying babies like Blac
k
> & White and Round and Square.
> Back to the K.I.S.S. M.E. Principal.
>
> Barry****
>
>
> ==========
> -
> ine-List" target="_blank">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
> ==========
> MS -
> k">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> e -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> * *****
>
> * *****
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List*****
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*****
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*****
>
> * *****
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-L
ist*
>
> *tp://forums.matronics.com*
>
> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> * *
>
> ** **
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
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===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
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| Subject: | Voltmeter advice needed |
Good Afternoon Pete,
I had a bit over sixty years of watching aircraft engines using only
analog gauges and have only about five years using the new fangled digita
l ones.
I will take the digital over the analog any time! <G>
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 7/18/2011 5:43:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
pete@usjabiru.com writes:
Actually my last line applies to many kit and airframe makers other than
Jabiru. Jabiru=99s cowl design allows for excellent cooling in mos
t all
conditions. Example =93 we completed a new J230 last week and first
flights
happened on a day when OAT was 100 F at our airport. On the first climb
to
3500 MSL from our 800 ft MSL runway top CHT temp was on cylinder 5 at 368
F.
Well within the 392 F limit. Further flights produced only lower temps.
Our new demo J230 with 12 hours on it produced a top temp of 323 F on the
same day. In cruise at 3500 ft temps are all below 300 F when OAT at 350
0
ft is 85 F.
We pay attention to our carb tuning and cylinder to cylinder CHT tuning
by
adjusting deflectors we put in the cooling ducts. We pay attention and
make adjustments to cylinder to cylinder EGT=99s We=99ve got
it down now
mostly so that we don=99t need to do much adjusting any more. Oil
temps in cruise
run 185 F on a hot day. Maybe that=99s why on the 250 aircraft we
=99ve built
in the last few years we don=99t seem to have all these head proble
ms,
through bolt breakage and other issues that we hear about from many other
places. Our digital instruments guide our customers in their engine oper
ation so
as to keep operation within parameters.
We have several flight school aircraft whos=99 engines are coming
up on the
1000 hour top overhaul before year=99s end. We only hear from thos
e owners
when they need distributor caps and rotors or some other minor consumable
parts. Compare that to a fight school in Australia that have had to repl
ace
engines four times in their fleet over the same accumulation of hours.
Is
it design or is it operation?
We do have engine problems with some kit and LSA aircraft where cowl
design could use improvement. Probably 75% of all our engine problems co
me
from two makes of aircraft. Cowl design needs improvement and the operat
ing
instructions could use more development as well.
Having sold nearly a third of all Jabiru engines over the last 12 years
I
think we=99ve had some solid exposure to how they operate and gaine
d solid
knowledge on how to keep them healthy. Digital display instruments are
critical to that endeavor.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Martin
Hone
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Voltmeter advice needed
Peter,
I guess that it also depends on what you are most comfortable with.
Digital anything is supposed to be more reliable and accurate. For things
that
don't move a lot, a digital display is easy to read. For me, digital tach
s
are a PITA - I like to see at a glance if the needles are pointing the ri
ght
direction during critical phases of flight, without concentrating on what
the gauges are saying precisely. A number of digital instruments using
bar
graphs or a ring of lights replicating where a needle would be pointing
are a good compromise. These days, we certainly are spoilt for choice an
d
information.
Also, I just wonder if your last line applies to Jabiru..... ;-)
Cheers
Marty
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 7:17 AM, Pete Krotje <_pete@usjabiru.com_
(mailto:pete@usjabiru.com) > wrote:
I disagree strongly. Digital display tachometers are easy to read at a
glance and return very accurate information. At a glance I can see (for
example) that I=99m getting 2830 rpm climbing out at 80 knots in ou
r J230. If it
were an analog display I=99d see at a glance that I have a little
over 2800
rpm =93 maybe 2850. Why not be precise at a glance? It takes more
time to
stare at a analog display to determine which small line the needle rests
on
that to take a quick glance at a digital display and see a precise number
.
Same thing with engine instruments. I get calls all the time about EGT
=99s
and the customer tells me he=99s =9Cin the green=9D.
When I ask what temp his
EGT=99s really are he can=99t be precise. Some callers don
=99t even know where
the green starts and stops. To get a carb tuned correctly you need preci
se
information to straddle that fine line between good economy and engine
damage. =9CIn the green=9D just doesn=99t cut it.
Most of the better engine digital displays can show a trend line. At a
glance I can tell if my CHT=99s are rising or if they are falling.
Nice to
know at a glance that when you level off for cruise that temps begin fall
ing
after the climb but CRITICAL to know if they continue to rise. With an
analog display you might discern the trend if you can remember the temp
from
when you looked last and can remember when that last look occurred. You
might even get distracted from flying the plane while intently staring at
the
analog temp display to see if the needle moves.
In experimental aircraft where often cowl development may not be the
highest priority and where R&D budgets do not exist a good monitor is ess
ential
to report what is going on in the engine compartment. The cost is less
than comparable analog instruments and the capabilities are significantly
above.
On Jul 18, 2011, at 9:28 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
You are RIGHT Lynn:
We put a man on the moon with analog gauges and NOW we fixate on
digital... For my $2.00 ... Have you ever flown with someone that has a
DIGITAL TACH?
Watch their EYES - How Long it takes them to set a RPM.
How fixated they are on getting the RPM right ON!
How Long there eyes are INSIDE the cockpit rather than LQQKing OUTSIDE.
Oil Temps are the SAME ISSUE... On climb-out ask them what is their oil
Temp? And again watch their eyes... and Lissen to what they report.
186.7 F instead of IN THE GREEN or between 180 & 190 F
WAIT till they have an emergency situation and they once again become
fixated on THE NUMBERS!
It is like driving a car and talking on the cell phone. BOTH operations
require the same side of the brain and they compete with each other.
Same is true of DIGITAL Vs ANALOG. The DIGITAL requires you to THINK and
REMEMBER numbers as apposed to GO/NO-GO... GREEN, YELLOW & RED.
Ever since birth we are ANALOG and today they are saying babies like Blac
k
& White and Round and Square.
Back to the K.I.S.S. M.E. Principal.
Barry
-
ine-List"
target="_blank">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List_
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List)
MS -
k">_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List_
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List)
_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-Lis
t
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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