Today's Message Index:
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1. 04:47 PM - Re: Voltmeter advice needed (FLYaDIVE)
2. 06:19 PM - Re: Voltmeter advice needed (japhillipsga@aol.com)
3. 07:16 PM - Re: Voltmeter advice needed (FLYaDIVE)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Voltmeter advice needed |
Peter:
What do you disagree strongly with? The gauges or human nature?
Gauges - Yes that digital readout is a more accurate number. No
disagreement there.
But you prove the point. Who cares if the RPM is 2830 or 2800. If YOU are
reading 2830 you are spending too much time LQQKing at the gauge. That is
human nature. You do NOT stare at an Analog gauge and attempt to figure ou
t
if it is 2800 or 2830. Just as you indicated what your action would be.
That is why many instruments are color coded. To take away human error.
As Lynn stated and his instructor pick up on .... Close is good enough.
NOW... To support you and Digital Gauges... YES if you want to track and
collect some data because you have a question or a problem DIGITAL GAUGES
are GREAT! And since 95% of my flying is with a passenger / co-pilot... I
use them to watch or record the exact numbers. I glance at the gauges to
make sure they are IN THE GREEN. I do not concern myself with 'what shade
of green'. There was even a post about digital gauges with a LED ring
around the outside of the digital readout. Why? To reduce the human
factor. To reduce the normal human action of spending too much time LQQKin
g
at flickering numbers.
Barry
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Pete Krotje <pete@usjabiru.com> wrote:
> I disagree strongly. Digital display tachometers are easy to read at a
> glance and return very accurate information. At a glance I can see (for
> example) that I=92m getting 2830 rpm climbing out at 80 knots in our J230
. If
> it were an analog display I=92d see at a glance that I have a little over
2800
> rpm ' maybe 2850. Why not be precise at a glance? It takes more time
to
> stare at a analog display to determine which small line the needle rests
on
> that to take a quick glance at a digital display and see a precise number
.
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> Same thing with engine instruments. I get calls all the time about EGT
=92s
> and the customer tells me he=92s =93in the green=94. When I ask what tem
p his
> EGT=92s really are he can=92t be precise. Some callers don=92t even know
where
> the green starts and stops. To get a carb tuned correctly you need preci
se
> information to straddle that fine line between good economy and engine
> damage. =93In the green=94 just doesn=92t cut it. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Most of the better engine digital displays can show a trend line. At a
> glance I can tell if my CHT=92s are rising or if they are falling. Nice
to
> know at a glance that when you level off for cruise that temps begin fall
ing
> after the climb but CRITICAL to know if they continue to rise. With an
> analog display you might discern the trend if you can remember the temp f
rom
> when you looked last and can remember when that last look occurred. You
> might even get distracted from flying the plane while intently staring at
> the analog temp display to see if the needle moves.****
>
> ** **
>
> In experimental aircraft where often cowl development may not be the
> highest priority and where R&D budgets do not exist a good monitor is
> essential to report what is going on in the engine compartment. The cost
is
> less than comparable analog instruments and the capabilities are
> significantly above.****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
>
> On Jul 18, 2011, at 9:28 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:****
>
> You are RIGHT Lynn:
>
> We put a man on the moon with analog gauges and NOW we fixate on digital.
..
> For my $2.00 ... Have you ever flown with someone that has a DIGITAL TACH
?
> Watch their EYES - How Long it takes them to set a RPM.
> How fixated they are on getting the RPM right ON!
> How Long there eyes are INSIDE the cockpit rather than LQQKing OUTSIDE.
> Oil Temps are the SAME ISSUE... On climb-out ask them what is their oil
> Temp? And again watch their eyes... and Lissen to what they report.
> 186.7 F instead of IN THE GREEN or between 180 & 190 F
> WAIT till they have an emergency situation and they once again become
> fixated on THE NUMBERS!
>
> It is like driving a car and talking on the cell phone. BOTH operations
> require the same side of the brain and they compete with each other.
> Same is true of DIGITAL Vs ANALOG. The DIGITAL requires you to THINK and
> REMEMBER numbers as apposed to GO/NO-GO... GREEN, YELLOW & RED.
> Ever since birth we are ANALOG and today they are saying babies like Blac
k
> & White and Round and Square.
> Back to the K.I.S.S. M.E. Principal.
>
> Barry****
>
>
> ========================
===========
> -
> ine-List" target="_blank">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
> ========================
===========
> MS -
> k">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> e -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ========================
===========
>
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Voltmeter advice needed |
Analog gauges, in the green ?? What do we need them for? Why the early fly
ers only had a ribbon tied of a nail to judge speed and rpm was determined
whether they could count the rotation of the bicycle chain sprocket as the
props turned. Why do we need that analog stuff? Real Pilots just hears and
feels the plane and the air. In the Green? what does that prove? Who set th
at standard? Why should we ever try to have something more sophisticated?
What a waste of time and effort! Same argument, different direction. Truth
is I have a big glass screen from MGL in my new RV-8a and I will need a lon
g while to pickup on all the data it provides and apply it to my flying eff
orts and goals. Seems we forgot that flying a modern plane safely and corre
ctly requires a bunch of skills and a load of situational awareness of the
plane in relation to the good earth and the operating condition of the mach
ine. I say if your always flying outside the cockpit, sooner or later your
going to run out of fuel. Happens every day to somebody. Got to have the ri
ght blend to be safe. Right? Best of luck, Bill & Blue Bird, N288WP, RV-8a,
9 hrs into Phase l
-----Original Message-----
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>
Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 7:47 pm
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Voltmeter advice needed
Peter:
What do you disagree strongly with? The gauges or human nature?
Gauges - Yes that digital readout is a more accurate number. No disagreeme
nt there.
But you prove the point. Who cares if the RPM is 2830 or 2800. If YOU are
reading 2830 you are spending too much time LQQKing at the gauge. That is
human nature. You do NOT stare at an Analog gauge and attempt to figure o
ut if it is 2800 or 2830. Just as you indicated what your action would be.
That is why many instruments are color coded. To take away human error.
As Lynn stated and his instructor pick up on .... Close is good enough.
NOW... To support you and Digital Gauges... YES if you want to track and co
llect some data because you have a question or a problem DIGITAL GAUGES are
GREAT! And since 95% of my flying is with a passenger / co-pilot... I use
them to watch or record the exact numbers. I glance at the gauges to make
sure they are IN THE GREEN. I do not concern myself with 'what shade of g
reen'. There was even a post about digital gauges with a LED ring around t
he outside of the digital readout. Why? To reduce the human factor. To r
educe the normal human action of spending too much time LQQKing at flickeri
ng numbers.
Barry
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Pete Krotje <pete@usjabiru.com> wrote:
I disagree strongly. Digital display tachometers are easy to read at a gla
nce and return very accurate information. At a glance I can see (for examp
le) that I=99m getting 2830 rpm climbing out at 80 knots in our J230.
If it were an analog display I=99d see at a glance that I have a li
ttle over 2800 rpm =93 maybe 2850. Why not be precise at a glance?
It takes more time to stare at a analog display to determine which small li
ne the needle rests on that to take a quick glance at a digital display and
see a precise number.
Same thing with engine instruments. I get calls all the time about EGT
=99s and the customer tells me he=99s =9Cin the green
=9D. When I ask what temp his EGT=99s really are he can=99t be
precise. Some callers don=99t even know where the green starts and
stops. To get a carb tuned correctly you need precise information to strad
dle that fine line between good economy and engine damage. =9CIn the
green=9D just doesn=99t cut it.
Most of the better engine digital displays can show a trend line. At a gla
nce I can tell if my CHT=99s are rising or if they are falling. Nice
to know at a glance that when you level off for cruise that temps begin fa
lling after the climb but CRITICAL to know if they continue to rise. With
an analog display you might discern the trend if you can remember the temp
from when you looked last and can remember when that last look occurred. Y
ou might even get distracted from flying the plane while intently staring a
t the analog temp display to see if the needle moves.
In experimental aircraft where often cowl development may not be the highes
t priority and where R&D budgets do not exist a good monitor is essential t
o report what is going on in the engine compartment. The cost is less than
comparable analog instruments and the capabilities are significantly above
.
On Jul 18, 2011, at 9:28 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
You are RIGHT Lynn:
We put a man on the moon with analog gauges and NOW we fixate on digital...
For my $2.00 ... Have you ever flown with someone that has a DIGITAL TACH?
Watch their EYES - How Long it takes them to set a RPM.
How fixated they are on getting the RPM right ON!
How Long there eyes are INSIDE the cockpit rather than LQQKing OUTSIDE.
Oil Temps are the SAME ISSUE... On climb-out ask them what is their oil Te
mp? And again watch their eyes... and Lissen to what they report.
186.7 F instead of IN THE GREEN or between 180 & 190 F
WAIT till they have an emergency situation and they once again become fixat
ed on THE NUMBERS!
It is like driving a car and talking on the cell phone. BOTH operations re
quire the same side of the brain and they compete with each other.
Same is true of DIGITAL Vs ANALOG. The DIGITAL requires you to THINK and R
EMEMBER numbers as apposed to GO/NO-GO... GREEN, YELLOW & RED.
Ever since birth we are ANALOG and today they are saying babies like Black
& White and Round and Square.
Back to the K.I.S.S. M.E. Principal.
Barry
-
ine-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine
-List
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Voltmeter advice needed |
LOL...
Very Good Bill.
We don't need no stinking digital!
I don't watch no stinking meter to tell me my fuel level... It is right
outside the windscreen bobbing up & down on a cork & wire.
When do I switch fuel tanks? When one wing drops and I'm too lazy to
apply opposite aerlon & rudder.
Can I log glider time when I run out of fuel?
Barry
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 9:16 PM, <japhillipsga@aol.com> wrote:
> Analog gauges, in the green ?? What do we need them for? Why the early
> flyers only had a ribbon tied of a nail to judge speed and rpm was
> determined whether they could count the rotation of the bicycle chain
> sprocket as the props turned. Why do we need that analog stuff? Real Pilo
ts
> just hears and feels the plane and the air. In the Green? what does that
> prove? Who set that standard? Why should we ever try to have something m
ore
> sophisticated? What a waste of time and effort! Same argument, different
> direction. Truth is I have a big glass screen from MGL in my new RV-8a an
d I
> will need a long while to pickup on all the data it provides and apply it
to
> my flying efforts and goals. Seems we forgot that flying a modern plane
> safely and correctly requires a bunch of skills and a load of situational
> awareness of the plane in relation to the good earth and the operating
> condition of the machine. I say if your always flying outside the cockpit
,
> sooner or later your going to run out of fuel. Happens every day to
> somebody. Got to have the right blend to be safe. Right? Best of luck, Bi
ll
> & Blue Bird, N288WP, RV-8a, 9 hrs into Phase l
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>
> To: jabiruengine-list <jabiruengine-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 7:47 pm
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Voltmeter advice needed
>
> Peter:
>
> What do you disagree strongly with? The gauges or human nature?
> Gauges - Yes that digital readout is a more accurate number. No
> disagreement there.
> But you prove the point. Who cares if the RPM is 2830 or 2800. If YOU a
re
> reading 2830 you are spending too much time LQQKing at the gauge. That i
s
> human nature. You do NOT stare at an Analog gauge and attempt to figure
out
> if it is 2800 or 2830. Just as you indicated what your action would be.
> That is why many instruments are color coded. To take away human error.
> As Lynn stated and his instructor pick up on .... Close is good enough.
> NOW... To support you and Digital Gauges... YES if you want to track and
> collect some data because you have a question or a problem DIGITAL GAUGES
> are GREAT! And since 95% of my flying is with a passenger / co-pilot...
I
> use them to watch or record the exact numbers. I glance at the gauges to
> make sure they are IN THE GREEN. I do not concern myself with 'what shad
e
> of green'. There was even a post about digital gauges with a LED ring
> around the outside of the digital readout. Why? To reduce the human
> factor. To reduce the normal human action of spending too much time LQQK
ing
> at flickering numbers.
>
> Barry
>
> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Pete Krotje <pete@usjabiru.com> wrote:
>
>> I disagree strongly. Digital display tachometers are easy to read at a
>> glance and return very accurate information. At a glance I can see (for
>> example) that I=92m getting 2830 rpm climbing out at 80 knots in our J23
0. If
>> it were an analog display I=92d see at a glance that I have a little ove
r 2800
>> rpm ' maybe 2850. Why not be precise at a glance? It takes more time
to
>> stare at a analog display to determine which small line the needle rests
on
>> that to take a quick glance at a digital display and see a precise numbe
r.
>> ****
>> ** **
>> Same thing with engine instruments. I get calls all the time about EGT
=92s
>> and the customer tells me he=92s =93in the green=94. When I ask what te
mp his
>> EGT=92s really are he can=92t be precise. Some callers don=92t even kno
w where
>> the green starts and stops. To get a carb tuned correctly you need prec
ise
>> information to straddle that fine line between good economy and engine
>> damage. =93In the green=94 just doesn=92t cut it. ****
>> ** **
>> Most of the better engine digital displays can show a trend line. At a
>> glance I can tell if my CHT=92s are rising or if they are falling. Nice
to
>> know at a glance that when you level off for cruise that temps begin fal
ling
>> after the climb but CRITICAL to know if they continue to rise. With an
>> analog display you might discern the trend if you can remember the temp
from
>> when you looked last and can remember when that last look occurred. You
>> might even get distracted from flying the plane while intently staring a
t
>> the analog temp display to see if the needle moves.****
>> ** **
>> In experimental aircraft where often cowl development may not be the
>> highest priority and where R&D budgets do not exist a good monitor is
>> essential to report what is going on in the engine compartment. The cos
t is
>> less than comparable analog instruments and the capabilities are
>> significantly above.****
>> ** **
>> ** **
>>
>> On Jul 18, 2011, at 9:28 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:****
>> You are RIGHT Lynn:
>>
>> We put a man on the moon with analog gauges and NOW we fixate on
>> digital... For my $2.00 ... Have you ever flown with someone that has a
>> DIGITAL TACH?
>> Watch their EYES - How Long it takes them to set a RPM.
>> How fixated they are on getting the RPM right ON!
>> How Long there eyes are INSIDE the cockpit rather than LQQKing OUTSIDE.
>> Oil Temps are the SAME ISSUE... On climb-out ask them what is their oil
>> Temp? And again watch their eyes... and Lissen to what they report.
>> 186.7 F instead of IN THE GREEN or between 180 & 190 F
>> WAIT till they have an emergency situation and they once again become
>> fixated on THE NUMBERS!
>>
>> It is like driving a car and talking on the cell phone. BOTH operations
>> require the same side of the brain and they compete with each other.
>> Same is true of DIGITAL Vs ANALOG. The DIGITAL requires you to THINK an
d
>> REMEMBER numbers as apposed to GO/NO-GO... GREEN, YELLOW & RED.
>> Ever since birth we are ANALOG and today they are saying babies like Bla
ck
>> & White and Round and Square.
>> Back to the K.I.S.S. M.E. Principal.
>>
>> Barry****
>>
>> ==========
>> -
>> ine-List" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
>> ==========
>> MS -
>> k">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> e -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>> ****
>> ** **
>>
>> * *
>>
>> * *
>>
>> **
>>
>> **
>>
>> **
>>
>> **
>>
>> **
>>
>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List*
>>
>> **
>>
>> **
>>
>> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>>
>> **
>>
>> **
>>
>> **
>>
>> **
>>
>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>>
>> **
>>
>> * *
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-L
ist
>>
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> tor?JabiruEngine-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-Li
st
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
>
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