Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:32 AM - Re: 3300 Flywheel assembly (FLYaDIVE)
2. 08:12 AM - Re: Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (test flight without cowling?) (Pete Krotje)
3. 08:43 AM - Re: Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (test flight without cowling?) (nick)
4. 08:56 AM - Re: Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (test flight without cowling?) (Jose M. Toro)
5. 09:01 AM - Re: Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (test flight without cowling?) (Jose M. Toro)
6. 09:20 AM - Re: Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (test flight without cowling?) (Rob Turk)
7. 10:39 AM - Re: Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (test flight without cowling?) (Jose M. Toro)
8. 11:43 AM - Re: Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (test flight without cowling?) (Pete Krotje)
9. 04:08 PM - Re: Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (test flight without cowling?) (Ellery Batchelder Jr)
10. 04:20 PM - Re: Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (test flight without cowling?) (Ellery Batchelder Jr)
11. 04:45 PM - Re: Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (test flight without cowling?) (Jose M. Toro)
12. 04:57 PM - Fuel Injection (mike>bentley)
13. 07:07 PM - Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (test flight with (dons701)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 3300 Flywheel assembly |
Paul:
That is just about impossible. It is micro welding and would cost big
bucks... At least in the NJ area. The other problem with that is the weld
marks would have to be ground to match the pitch of the engaging teeth.
Follow that up with the loss of a safety shear - The teeth on the ring
gear are softer than the teeth of the starter. DUMB... It should be the
other way around but the starter manufacture does not want to
be responsible of a failure. And if the ring gear was harder it would also
be heavier - Something the builder does not want. SOOoooo pick a failure
point and PAY FOR IT!
The question IS: Why did it fail?
Barry
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net> wrote:
> Hi Jeff,
>
> I wonder if it is possible (acceptable?) to weld the teeth on your
> flywheel. It would be a tricky job, but probably a lot less expensive than
> buying a new one. It would also be a lot quicker than any replacement part.
>
> Paul
> Camas, WA
> Zodiac XL, Jab 3300A, just over 20 hours in phase I flight test
>
>
> On 11/27/2011 3:55 PM, Jeffrey J Paris wrote:
>
> Dear Jabiru Engine owners,
>
> It look as if I have sheared some of the teeth on my flywheel starter
> gear ( see attached picture). I was having some starting difficulty and
> voila my starter engaged or disengaged just as the engine was turning over
> and I pinged some teeth. Anyways The flywheel assembly for a 3300 is part
> number 4626073 and is in the neighborhood of 600 dollars to replace. I was
> wondering if anyone out in Jabiruland may have a serviceable/usable part
> from a damaged engine? I have contacted Jabiru USA and they have to get it
> from Australia and the factory and don't carry any in stock, moreover if I
> could save some money with a decent used part I figured I'd try that avenue
> first.
>
> Thanks for your time and consideration and Happy Thanksgiving to all.
>
> Jeff Paris 2 Jab3300's in the nest- Zenith CH601XLB and a Europa Classic
> Monowheel
> Rochester, NY
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (test |
flight without cowling?)
The only way you can cool the cylinders is to get high pressure air above
and low pressure below the cylinders. The cowl design is responsible for
creating this difference. How will you create the pressure differential
without a cowl? The ram air ducts by themselves will not do it as several
customers have found out to their dismay after achieving 500 degree CHT's in
the initial climb out on a short flight. No worries, though. New heads are
available to replace the warped ones.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jose M.
Toro
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling
modification (test flight without cowling?)
I'm considering to do a short flight tomorrow without cowling to verify the
modified needles (main jet: 2.20-> 2.49, needle jet: 2.76-> 2.87) and to try
to proof my theory about insufficient air going into the cooling baffels.
Is it there any reason why I should not fly without the cowling? I was
checking the Jabiru powered X-Airs (tractor without cowling), and they use
the same kind of cooling baffle that I use.
Jose
Rans S6ES/Jab 2200
_____
From: Jose M. Toro <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 9:51 PM
Subject: Fw: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling
modification (jets size?)
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: dons701 <burdon1@comcast.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 11:18 AM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling modification
(jets size?)
Hi Jose. The purpose of the holes is to bleed some cooling air over the
front crank bearing, but you can duct tape them closed as an experiment. I
found gaps around the bottom perimeter of my ducts where air could leak and
not flow through the fins so I filled these gaps with strips of high temp
foam silicone rubber glued to the duct. Then, you can remove the tape from
the holes.
I remember your peak head temp being 400F. If true, that alone can raise oil
temperature. But, having peak egt's at 1500F tends to conduct to the head
and it's thermocouple.....Which increases oil temps.
Did you pull any spark plugs for color check??
It is easy to change your main jet, it requires an 8mm box wrench I
believe and be sure to have a good magnifying glass handy to see the jet
number! I would not be afraid of a #240 or a #245 main jet, even with the
#276 needle jet and it's "matching" needle as supplied with your carb. Make
sure there is a brass flat washer behind the jet. It's there to prevent
cavitation of air, (whirlpool) into fuel around jet body, supposedly. Fuel
level should be close to 12mm from the top when bowl is carefully lowered,
(not easy without spilling).
Questions;
What is your peak RPM and EGT, full throttle, climb out?
What is your EGT at cruise RPM, part throttle at say around 2800RPM?
What type of temperature measurement system are you using? EIS? Single
analog, digital? Individual cylinder capability? Or group measurement?
My thoughts are, get full throttle EGT's to 1200F to 1225F.
Cruise EGT's, if around 2800 or so, around 1325F.
Once you get these temps under control, the demand being placed on your
"cooling systems" will be greatly reduced.
Hope this helps....DonB
--------
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewt * AeroElectric
<http://www.matronics.com/c=====%3cbr%3e%3cbr%3e%3cbr%3e%3cbr%3e%3cbr%3e%3cb
r%3e%20%3c/div%3e%20%3c/div%3e%20%20%3c/div%3e%3c/div%3e%3c/div%3e%3cbr%3e%3
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (test |
flight without cowling?)
Jose,
I would not fly that aircraft with out a cowl. To do so will be
dangerous. The flat area of the firewall is not intended to be
aerodynamic and will result in much higher stall speed, and certainly a
much higher approach speed which you may not account for. The S6 has a
broad enough firewall face to cause many other ill wanted flight
characteristics that I do not care to get into.
The problem is airflow thru the cowl. Inlet to exit size ratios,
air-duct installation or something else, but flying the aircraft with no
cowl will only prove that you have just become a test pilot when you
certainly did not want to.
Nick Otterback
Research and Design
Arion Aircraft LLC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete
Krotje
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 10:09 AM
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling
modification (test flight without cowling?)
The only way you can cool the cylinders is to get high pressure air
above and low pressure below the cylinders. The cowl design is
responsible for creating this difference. How will you create the
pressure differential without a cowl? The ram air ducts by themselves
will not do it as several customers have found out to their dismay after
achieving 500 degree CHT's in the initial climb out on a short flight.
No worries, though. New heads are available to replace the warped ones.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jose
M. Toro
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling
modification (test flight without cowling?)
I'm considering to do a short flight tomorrow without cowling to verify
the modified needles (main jet: 2.20-> 2.49, needle jet: 2.76-> 2.87)
and to try to proof my theory about insufficient air going into the
cooling baffels. Is it there any reason why I should not fly without
the cowling? I was checking the Jabiru powered X-Airs (tractor without
cowling), and they use the same kind of cooling baffle that I use.
Jose
Rans S6ES/Jab 2200
_____
From: Jose M. Toro <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 9:51 PM
Subject: Fw: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling
modification (jets size?)
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: dons701 <burdon1@comcast.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 11:18 AM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling
modification (jets size?)
Hi Jose. The purpose of the holes is to bleed some cooling air over the
front crank bearing, but you can duct tape them closed as an experiment.
I found gaps around the bottom perimeter of my ducts where air could
leak and not flow through the fins so I filled these gaps with strips of
high temp foam silicone rubber glued to the duct. Then, you can remove
the tape from the holes.
I remember your peak head temp being 400F. If true, that alone can raise
oil temperature. But, having peak egt's at 1500F tends to conduct to the
head and it's thermocouple.....Which increases oil temps.
Did you pull any spark plugs for color check??
It is easy to change your main jet, it requires an 8mm box wrench I
believe and be sure to have a good magnifying glass handy to see the jet
number! I would not be afraid of a #240 or a #245 main jet, even with
the #276 needle jet and it's "matching" needle as supplied with your
carb. Make sure there is a brass flat washer behind the jet. It's there
to prevent cavitation of air, (whirlpool) into fuel around jet body,
supposedly. Fuel level should be close to 12mm from the top when bowl is
carefully lowered, (not easy without spilling).
Questions;
What is your peak RPM and EGT, full throttle, climb out?
What is your EGT at cruise RPM, part throttle at say around 2800RPM?
What type of temperature measurement system are you using? EIS? Single
analog, digital? Individual cylinder capability? Or group measurement?
My thoughts are, get full throttle EGT's to 1200F to 1225F.
Cruise EGT's, if around 2800 or so, around 1325F.
Once you get these temps under control, the demand being placed on your
"cooling systems" will be greatly reduced.
Hope this helps....DonB
--------
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewt * AeroElectric
<http://www.matronics.com/c=====%3cbr%3e%3cbr%3e%3cbr%3e%3cbr%3e%3cbr%3e
%3cbr%3e%20%3c/div%3e%20%3c/div%3e%20%20%3c/div%3e%3c/div%3e%3c/div%3e%3
cbr%3e%3cbr%3e%20%3c/div%3e%20%3c/div%3e%20%0d%0a%20%3c/div%3e%0d%0a%3cp
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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| Subject: | Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (test |
flight without cowling?)
Pete:
I decided Not to fly without cowling. However, for educational purposes, wh
y it works in the X-air? What is different in that installation?
Have you seen the latest pictures I posted in the list? I arrived to the co
nclusion that the top of the cowling entrances were aligned too low in relat
ion to the top of the cylinders. So, the next step of my "project" is to ra
ise the top of the entrances about an inch. It will take minor modification
s to the cooling baffles for coupling purposes. Will also modify the bottom o
f the cowling to close the entrance. The objective is to route the air flow
to the upper half of the cylinders.
After modifying the carb needles, I started the engine briefly without cowli
ng. At idle, I observed the temperature in the front cylinder 30 deg higher t
han the rear one. Being the cowling out the equation, I wonder if there is a
problem with the position of the deflector inside the cooling baffles. (I p
osted a picture of booth cooling baffles). It points the air flow approxima
tely to the middle of the rear cylinder. Should I move this deflector forwar
d?
Jose
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 28, 2011, at 12:09 PM, "Pete Krotje" <pete@usjabiru.com> wrote:
> The only way you can cool the cylinders is to get high pressure air above a
nd low pressure below the cylinders. The cowl design is responsible for cre
ating this difference. How will you create the pressure differential withou
t a cowl? The ram air ducts by themselves will not do it as several custome
rs have found out to their dismay after achieving 500 degree CHT=99s i
n the initial climb out on a short flight. No worries, though. New heads a
re available to replace the warped ones.
>
> Pete
>
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabirueng
ine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jose M. Toro
> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:36 PM
> To: jabiruengines list
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling modificat
ion (test flight without cowling?)
>
> I'm considering to do a short flight tomorrow without cowling to verify th
e modified needles (main jet: 2.20-> 2.49, needle jet: 2.76-> 2.87) and to t
ry to proof my theory about insufficient air going into the cooling baffels.
Is it there any reason why I should not fly without the cowling? I was ch
ecking the Jabiru powered X-Airs (tractor without cowling), and they use the
same kind of cooling baffle that I use.
>
> Jose
> Rans S6ES/Jab 2200
> From: Jose M. Toro <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
> To: Jose Toro <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 9:51 PM
> Subject: Fw: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling modificat
ion (jets size?)
>
>
> ----- Forwarded Message -----
> From: dons701 <burdon1@comcast.net>
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 11:18 AM
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (
jets size?)
>
>
> Hi Jose. The purpose of the holes is to bleed some cooling air over the f
ront crank bearing, but you can duct tape them closed as an experiment. I fo
und gaps around the bottom perimeter of my ducts where air could leak and no
t flow through the fins so I filled these gaps with strips of high temp foam
silicone rubber glued to the duct. Then, you can remove the tape from the h
oles.
> I remember your peak head temp being 400F. If true, that alone can raise o
il temperature. But, having peak egt's at 1500F tends to conduct to the head
and it's thermocouple.....Which increases oil temps.
> Did you pull any spark plugs for color check??
> It is easy to change your main jet, it requires an 8mm box wrench I beli
eve and be sure to have a good magnifying glass handy to see the jet number!
I would not be afraid of a #240 or a #245 main jet, even with the #276 need
le jet and it's "matching" needle as supplied with your carb. Make sure ther
e is a brass flat washer behind the jet. It's there to prevent cavitation of
air, (whirlpool) into fuel around jet body, supposedly. Fuel level should b
e close to 12mm from the top when bowl is carefully lowered, (not easy witho
ut spilling).
> Questions;
> What is your peak RPM and EGT, full throttle, climb out?
> What is your EGT at cruise RPM, part throttle at say around 2800RPM?
> What type of temperature measurement system are you using? EIS? Single ana
log, digital? Individual cylinder capability? Or group measurement?
> My thoughts are, get full throttle EGT's to 1200F to 1225F.
> Cruise EGT's, if around 2800 or so, around 1325F.
> Once you get these temps under control, the demand being placed on your "c
ooling systems" will be greatly reduced.
> Hope this helps....DonB
>
> --------
> Zenith 701 #76120
> Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
> Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewt * AeroElectric http://www.matronics.com/
chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">http://www.ht
tp://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">htt
p://www.matronics.com/contribution ==========
>
>
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>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (test |
flight without cowling?)
Nick: Thanks for the advice. I will not fly without cowling. Could you ta
ke a look at my latest posting and tell me your opinion?
Thanks!
Jose
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 28, 2011, at 12:39 PM, "nick " <nick@flylightning.net> wrote:
> Jose,
>
> I would not fly that aircraft with out a cowl. To do so will be dangerous.
The flat area of the firewall is not intended to be aerodynamic and will re
sult in much higher stall speed, and certainly a much higher approach speed w
hich you may not account for. The S6 has a broad enough firewall face to cau
se many other ill wanted flight characteristics that I do not care to get in
to.
> The problem is airflow thru the cowl. Inlet to exit size ratios, air-duct i
nstallation or something else, but flying the aircraft with no cowl will onl
y prove that you have just become a test pilot when you certainly did not wa
nt to.
>
> Nick Otterback
> Research and Design
> Arion Aircraft LLC
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabirueng
ine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Krotje
> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 10:09 AM
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling modificat
ion (test flight without cowling?)
>
> The only way you can cool the cylinders is to get high pressure air above a
nd low pressure below the cylinders. The cowl design is responsible for cre
ating this difference. How will you create the pressure differential withou
t a cowl? The ram air ducts by themselves will not do it as several custome
rs have found out to their dismay after achieving 500 degree CHT=99s i
n the initial climb out on a short flight. No worries, though. New heads a
re available to replace the warped ones.
>
> Pete
>
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabirueng
ine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jose M. Toro
> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:36 PM
> To: jabiruengines list
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling modificat
ion (test flight without cowling?)
>
> I'm considering to do a short flight tomorrow without cowling to verify th
e modified needles (main jet: 2.20-> 2.49, needle jet: 2.76-> 2.87) and to t
ry to proof my theory about insufficient air going into the cooling baffels.
Is it there any reason why I should not fly without the cowling? I was ch
ecking the Jabiru powered X-Airs (tractor without cowling), and they use the
same kind of cooling baffle that I use.
>
> Jose
> Rans S6ES/Jab 2200
> From: Jose M. Toro <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
> To: Jose Toro <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 9:51 PM
> Subject: Fw: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling modificat
ion (jets size?)
>
>
> ----- Forwarded Message -----
> From: dons701 <burdon1@comcast.net>
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 11:18 AM
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (
jets size?)
>
>
> Hi Jose. The purpose of the holes is to bleed some cooling air over the f
ront crank bearing, but you can duct tape them closed as an experiment. I fo
und gaps around the bottom perimeter of my ducts where air could leak and no
t flow through the fins so I filled these gaps with strips of high temp foam
silicone rubber glued to the duct. Then, you can remove the tape from the h
oles.
> I remember your peak head temp being 400F. If true, that alone can raise o
il temperature. But, having peak egt's at 1500F tends to conduct to the head
and it's thermocouple.....Which increases oil temps.
> Did you pull any spark plugs for color check??
> It is easy to change your main jet, it requires an 8mm box wrench I beli
eve and be sure to have a good magnifying glass handy to see the jet number!
I would not be afraid of a #240 or a #245 main jet, even with the #276 need
le jet and it's "matching" needle as supplied with your carb. Make sure ther
e is a brass flat washer behind the jet. It's there to prevent cavitation of
air, (whirlpool) into fuel around jet body, supposedly. Fuel level should b
e close to 12mm from the top when bowl is carefully lowered, (not easy witho
ut spilling).
> Questions;
> What is your peak RPM and EGT, full throttle, climb out?
> What is your EGT at cruise RPM, part throttle at say around 2800RPM?
> What type of temperature measurement system are you using? EIS? Single ana
log, digital? Individual cylinder capability? Or group measurement?
> My thoughts are, get full throttle EGT's to 1200F to 1225F.
> Cruise EGT's, if around 2800 or so, around 1325F.
> Once you get these temps under control, the demand being placed on your "c
ooling systems" will be greatly reduced.
> Hope this helps....DonB
>
> --------
> Zenith 701 #76120
> Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
> Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewt * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com href
="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.h
omebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/con
tribution">http://www.matronics.com/cDralle, List Admin. Navigator much much
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List Web href="http://forums.matronics.
com">http://forums.matronics.com -Matt href="http://www.matronics.com/cont
ribution">http://www.matronics.com/c==========
>
>
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: CHT still high after cowling modification |
(test flight without cowling?)
Jose,
Glad you decided to abandon that flight without cowl. But before you go
modify the cowl, please install the equipment to *measure* the pressure
difference. Then take a test flight. That will become your baseline. For
any change after that it will immediately be obvious if it is an
improvement or not.
Without establishing a baseline, you are working in the dark. All you
will know after a change is that it is 'different', not if it is better
or worse.
Rob
On 11/28/2011 5:53 PM, Jose M. Toro wrote:
> Pete:
> I decided Not to fly without cowling. However, for educational
> purposes, why it works in the X-air? What is different in that
> installation?
>
> Have you seen the latest pictures I posted in the list? I arrived to
> the conclusion that the top of the cowling entrances were aligned too
> low in relation to the top of the cylinders. So, the next step of my
> "project" is to raise the top of the entrances about an inch. It will
> take minor modifications to the cooling baffles for coupling purposes.
> Will also modify the bottom of the cowling to close the entrance. The
> objective is to route the air flow to the upper half of the cylinders.
>
> After modifying the carb needles, I started the engine briefly without
> cowling. At idle, I observed the temperature in the front cylinder 30
> deg higher than the rear one. Being the cowling out the equation, I
> wonder if there is a problem with the position of the deflector inside
> the cooling baffles. (I posted a picture of booth cooling baffles).
> It points the air flow approximately to the middle of the rear
> cylinder. Should I move this deflector forward?
>
> Jose
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: CHT still high after cowling modification |
(test flight without cowling?)
Rob:
Too late, I already cutted the cowling. Picture is posted. To put it simple,
the objective of the next modification is to replicate the entrances of your cowling.
If this doesn't work, I will definitely try the pressure difference test.
Jose
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 28, 2011, at 1:17 PM, Rob Turk <matronics@rtist.nl> wrote:
>
> Jose,
>
> Glad you decided to abandon that flight without cowl. But before you go modify
the cowl, please install the equipment to *measure* the pressure difference.
Then take a test flight. That will become your baseline. For any change after
that it will immediately be obvious if it is an improvement or not.
>
> Without establishing a baseline, you are working in the dark. All you will know
after a change is that it is 'different', not if it is better or worse.
>
> Rob
>
>
> On 11/28/2011 5:53 PM, Jose M. Toro wrote:
>> Pete:
>> I decided Not to fly without cowling. However, for educational purposes, why
it works in the X-air? What is different in that installation?
>>
>> Have you seen the latest pictures I posted in the list? I arrived to the conclusion
that the top of the cowling entrances were aligned too low in relation
to the top of the cylinders. So, the next step of my "project" is to raise
the top of the entrances about an inch. It will take minor modifications to the
cooling baffles for coupling purposes. Will also modify the bottom of the cowling
to close the entrance. The objective is to route the air flow to the upper
half of the cylinders.
>>
>> After modifying the carb needles, I started the engine briefly without cowling.
At idle, I observed the temperature in the front cylinder 30 deg higher than
the rear one. Being the cowling out the equation, I wonder if there is a problem
with the position of the deflector inside the cooling baffles. (I posted
a picture of booth cooling baffles). It points the air flow approximately
to the middle of the rear cylinder. Should I move this deflector forward?
>>
>> Jose
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (test |
flight without cowling?)
It doesn=99t work particularly well on an X-Air unless additional
steps are taken to make pressure under the cylinders lower than pressure
inside the ducts.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jose
M. Toro
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling
modification (test flight without cowling?)
Pete:
I decided Not to fly without cowling. However, for educational
purposes, why it works in the X-air? What is different in that
installation?
Have you seen the latest pictures I posted in the list? I arrived to
the conclusion that the top of the cowling entrances were aligned too
low in relation to the top of the cylinders. So, the next step of my
"project" is to raise the top of the entrances about an inch. It will
take minor modifications to the cooling baffles for coupling purposes.
Will also modify the bottom of the cowling to close the entrance. The
objective is to route the air flow to the upper half of the cylinders.
After modifying the carb needles, I started the engine briefly without
cowling. At idle, I observed the temperature in the front cylinder 30
deg higher than the rear one. Being the cowling out the equation, I
wonder if there is a problem with the position of the deflector inside
the cooling baffles. (I posted a picture of booth cooling baffles). It
points the air flow approximately to the middle of the rear cylinder.
Should I move this deflector forward?
Jose
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 28, 2011, at 12:09 PM, "Pete Krotje" <pete@usjabiru.com> wrote:
The only way you can cool the cylinders is to get high pressure air
above and low pressure below the cylinders. The cowl design is
responsible for creating this difference. How will you create the
pressure differential without a cowl? The ram air ducts by themselves
will not do it as several customers have found out to their dismay after
achieving 500 degree CHT=99s in the initial climb out on a short
flight. No worries, though. New heads are available to replace the
warped ones.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jose
M. Toro
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling
modification (test flight without cowling?)
I'm considering to do a short flight tomorrow without cowling to verify
the modified needles (main jet: 2.20-> 2.49, needle jet: 2.76-> 2.87)
and to try to proof my theory about insufficient air going into the
cooling baffels. Is it there any reason why I should not fly without
the cowling? I was checking the Jabiru powered X-Airs (tractor without
cowling), and they use the same kind of cooling baffle that I use.
Jose
Rans S6ES/Jab 2200
_____
From: Jose M. Toro <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 9:51 PM
Subject: Fw: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling
modification (jets size?)
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: dons701 <burdon1@comcast.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 11:18 AM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling
modification (jets size?)
Hi Jose. The purpose of the holes is to bleed some cooling air over the
front crank bearing, but you can duct tape them closed as an experiment.
I found gaps around the bottom perimeter of my ducts where air could
leak and not flow through the fins so I filled these gaps with strips of
high temp foam silicone rubber glued to the duct. Then, you can remove
the tape from the holes.
I remember your peak head temp being 400F. If true, that alone can raise
oil temperature. But, having peak egt's at 1500F tends to conduct to the
head and it's thermocouple.....Which increases oil temps.
Did you pull any spark plugs for color check??
It is easy to change your main jet, it requires an 8mm box wrench I
believe and be sure to have a good magnifying glass handy to see the jet
number! I would not be afraid of a #240 or a #245 main jet, even with
the #276 needle jet and it's "matching" needle as supplied with your
carb. Make sure there is a brass flat washer behind the jet. It's there
to prevent cavitation of air, (whirlpool) into fuel around jet body,
supposedly. Fuel level should be close to 12mm from the top when bowl is
carefully lowered, (not easy without spilling).
Questions;
What is your peak RPM and EGT, full throttle, climb out?
What is your EGT at cruise RPM, part throttle at say around 2800RPM?
What type of temperature measurement system are you using? EIS? Single
analog, digital? Individual cylinder capability? Or group measurement?
My thoughts are, get full throttle EGT's to 1200F to 1225F.
Cruise EGT's, if around 2800 or so, around 1325F.
Once you get these temps under control, the demand being placed on your
"cooling systems" will be greatly reduced.
Hope this helps....DonB
--------
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewt * AeroElectric
<http://www.matronics.com/c=====%3cbr%3e%3cbr%3e%3cbr%3e%3cbr%3
e%3cbr%3e%3cbr%3e%20%3c/div%3e%20%3c/div%3e%20%20%3c/div%3e%3c/div%3e%3c/
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%0a%3cpre%3e%3cb%3e%3cfont%20size=2%20color=000000> <=""
a="">http://www.matronics.com/chref=
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forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution ===========
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ctric.com
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matronics.com/contribution
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st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (test |
flight without cowling?)
I should have added this to my last post
if you have an airplane that has a cowled engine I would not recommend flyi
ng it without the cowl
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Krotje <pete@usjabiru.com>
Sent: Mon, Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling modificati
on (test flight without cowling?)
The only way you can cool the cylinders is to get high pressure air above a
nd low pressure below the cylinders. The cowl design is responsible for cr
eating this difference. How will you create the pressure differential with
out a cowl? The ram air ducts by themselves will not do it as several cust
omers have found out to their dismay after achieving 500 degree CHT
=99s in the initial climb out on a short flight. No worries, though. New
heads are available to replace the warped ones.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengi
ne-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jose M. Toro
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling modificati
on (test flight without cowling?)
I'm considering to do a short flight tomorrow without cowling to verify the
modified needles (main jet: 2.20-> 2.49, needle jet: 2.76-> 2.87) and to t
ry to proof my theory about insufficient air going into the cooling baffels
. Is it there any reason why I should not fly without the cowling? I was
checking the Jabiru powered X-Airs (tractor without cowling), and they use
the same kind of cooling baffle that I use.
Jose
Rans S6ES/Jab 2200
From: Jose M. Toro <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 9:51 PM
Subject: Fw: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling modificati
on (jets size?)
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: dons701 <burdon1@comcast.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 11:18 AM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (
jets size?)
Hi Jose. The purpose of the holes is to bleed some cooling air over the fr
ont crank bearing, but you can duct tape them closed as an experiment. I fo
und gaps around the bottom perimeter of my ducts where air could leak and n
ot flow through the fins so I filled these gaps with strips of high temp fo
am silicone rubber glued to the duct. Then, you can remove the tape from th
e holes.
I remember your peak head temp being 400F. If true, that alone can raise oi
l temperature. But, having peak egt's at 1500F tends to conduct to the head
and it's thermocouple.....Which increases oil temps.
Did you pull any spark plugs for color check??
It is easy to change your main jet, it requires an 8mm box wrench I belie
ve and be sure to have a good magnifying glass handy to see the jet number!
I would not be afraid of a #240 or a #245 main jet, even with the #276 nee
dle jet and it's "matching" needle as supplied with your carb. Make sure th
ere is a brass flat washer behind the jet. It's there to prevent cavitation
of air, (whirlpool) into fuel around jet body, supposedly. Fuel level shou
ld be close to 12mm from the top when bowl is carefully lowered, (not easy
without spilling).
Questions;
What is your peak RPM and EGT, full throttle, climb out?
What is your EGT at cruise RPM, part throttle at say around 2800RPM?
What type of temperature measurement system are you using? EIS? Single anal
og, digital? Individual cylinder capability? Or group measurement?
My thoughts are, get full throttle EGT's to 1200F to 1225F.
Cruise EGT's, if around 2800 or so, around 1325F.
Once you get these temps under control, the demand being placed on your "co
oling systems" will be greatly reduced.
Hope this helps....DonB
--------
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewt * AeroElectric http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">http://www.ht
tp://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">ht
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution ===========
-
-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
-
-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on
-= the Contribution link below to find out more about
-= this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided
-= by:
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-========================
-= - The JabiruEngine-List Email Forum -
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-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
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-
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-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
-
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-
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-= Thank you for your generous support!
-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-========================
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (test |
flight without cowling?)
there are some Kolb Airplanes with Jabiru 2200 engines on them
and there not a coweled setup just for your information
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Krotje <pete@usjabiru.com>
Sent: Mon, Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling modificati
on (test flight without cowling?)
The only way you can cool the cylinders is to get high pressure air above a
nd low pressure below the cylinders. The cowl design is responsible for cr
eating this difference. How will you create the pressure differential with
out a cowl? The ram air ducts by themselves will not do it as several cust
omers have found out to their dismay after achieving 500 degree CHT
=99s in the initial climb out on a short flight. No worries, though. New
heads are available to replace the warped ones.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengi
ne-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jose M. Toro
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling modificati
on (test flight without cowling?)
I'm considering to do a short flight tomorrow without cowling to verify the
modified needles (main jet: 2.20-> 2.49, needle jet: 2.76-> 2.87) and to t
ry to proof my theory about insufficient air going into the cooling baffels
. Is it there any reason why I should not fly without the cowling? I was
checking the Jabiru powered X-Airs (tractor without cowling), and they use
the same kind of cooling baffle that I use.
Jose
Rans S6ES/Jab 2200
From: Jose M. Toro <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 9:51 PM
Subject: Fw: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling modificati
on (jets size?)
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: dons701 <burdon1@comcast.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 11:18 AM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (
jets size?)
Hi Jose. The purpose of the holes is to bleed some cooling air over the fr
ont crank bearing, but you can duct tape them closed as an experiment. I fo
und gaps around the bottom perimeter of my ducts where air could leak and n
ot flow through the fins so I filled these gaps with strips of high temp fo
am silicone rubber glued to the duct. Then, you can remove the tape from th
e holes.
I remember your peak head temp being 400F. If true, that alone can raise oi
l temperature. But, having peak egt's at 1500F tends to conduct to the head
and it's thermocouple.....Which increases oil temps.
Did you pull any spark plugs for color check??
It is easy to change your main jet, it requires an 8mm box wrench I belie
ve and be sure to have a good magnifying glass handy to see the jet number!
I would not be afraid of a #240 or a #245 main jet, even with the #276 nee
dle jet and it's "matching" needle as supplied with your carb. Make sure th
ere is a brass flat washer behind the jet. It's there to prevent cavitation
of air, (whirlpool) into fuel around jet body, supposedly. Fuel level shou
ld be close to 12mm from the top when bowl is carefully lowered, (not easy
without spilling).
Questions;
What is your peak RPM and EGT, full throttle, climb out?
What is your EGT at cruise RPM, part throttle at say around 2800RPM?
What type of temperature measurement system are you using? EIS? Single anal
og, digital? Individual cylinder capability? Or group measurement?
My thoughts are, get full throttle EGT's to 1200F to 1225F.
Cruise EGT's, if around 2800 or so, around 1325F.
Once you get these temps under control, the demand being placed on your "co
oling systems" will be greatly reduced.
Hope this helps....DonB
--------
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewt * AeroElectric http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">http://www.ht
tp://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">ht
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution ===========
-
-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
-
-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on
-= the Contribution link below to find out more about
-= this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided
-= by:
-
-= * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com
-= * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com
-= * HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com
-
-= List Contribution Web Site:
-
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-
-= Thank you for your generous support!
-
-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-
-========================
-= - The JabiruEngine-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
-
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
-
-========================
-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
-
-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
-
-========================
-= - List Contribution Web Site -
-= Thank you for your generous support!
-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-========================
Message 11
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|
| Subject: | Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (test |
flight without cowling?)
Ellery:=0A=0AI know I will go a little out of topic, but there are many Sup
er Cubs in my area used to tow banners that are flown without cowling to ke
ep the 180hp Continental engines cool while flying slow. =C2-I agree that
I must not (and will not) fly my plane without cowling because of the cool
ing requirements of the Jabiru, and have not doubt that this is impractical
in most cases, but by no means I consider flying an airplane without cowli
ng an absurd idea.=0A=0AJose=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A Fr
om: Ellery Batchelder Jr <elleryweld@aol.com>=0ATo: jabiruengine-list@matro
nics.com =0ASent: Monday, November 28, 2011 7:50 PM=0ASubject: Re: JabiruEn
gine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (test flight with
out cowling?)=0A =0A=0AI should have added this to my last post =0Aif you h
ave an airplane that has a cowled engine I would not recommend flying it wi
thout the cowl =C2-=0A=0A=0AEllery Batchelder Jr.=0A=0A=0A-----Original M
essage-----=0AFrom: Pete Krotje <pete@usjabiru.com>=0ATo: jabiruengine-list
<jabiruengine-list@matronics.com>=0ASent: Mon, Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am=0ASub
ject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling modification
(test flight without cowling?)=0A=0A=0A =0AThe only way you can cool the cy
linders is to get high pressure air above and low pressure below the cylind
ers.=C2- The cowl design is responsible for creating this difference.=C2
- How will you create the pressure differential without a cowl?=C2- The
ram air ducts by themselves will not do it as several customers have found
out to their dismay after achieving 500 degree CHT=99s in the initia
l climb out on a short flight.=C2- No worries, though.=C2- New heads ar
e available to replace the warped ones.=0A=C2-=0APete=0A=C2-=0AFrom:own
er-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-s
erver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jose M. Toro=0ASent: Friday, November 25,
2011 7:36 PM=0ATo: jabiruengines list=0ASubject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re
: CHT still high after cowling modification (test flight without cowling?)
=0A=C2-=0AI'm considering to do a short flight tomorrow without cowling t
o verify the modified needles (main jet: 2.20-> 2.49, needle jet: 2.76-> 2.
87) and to try to proof my theory about insufficient air going into the coo
ling baffels. =C2-Is it there any reason why I should not fly without the
cowling? =C2-I was checking the Jabiru powered X-Airs (tractor without c
owling), and they use the same kind of cooling baffle that I use.=0A=C2-
=0AJose=0ARans S6ES/Jab 2200=0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFr
om:Jose M. Toro <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>=0ATo: Jose Toro <jose_m_toro@yahoo.
com> =0ASent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 9:51 PM=0ASubject: Fw: JabiruEngi
ne-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (jets size?)=0A=C2
-=0A----- Forwarded Message -----=0AFrom: dons701 <burdon1@comcast.net>
=0ATo: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Thursday, November 24, 2011
11:18 AM=0ASubject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: CHT still high after cowling mo
701" <burdon1@comcast.net>=0A=0AHi Jose.=C2- The purpose of the holes is
to bleed some cooling air over the front crank bearing, but you can duct ta
pe them closed as an experiment. I found gaps around the bottom perimeter o
f my ducts where air could leak and not flow through the fins so I filled t
hese gaps with strips of high temp foam silicone rubber glued to the duct.
Then, you can remove the tape from the holes. =0AI remember your peak head
temp being 400F. If true, that alone can raise oil temperature. But, having
peak egt's at 1500F tends to conduct to the head and it's thermocouple....
.Which increases oil temps.=0ADid you pull any spark plugs for color check?
?=0A=C2- It is easy to change your main jet, it requires an 8mm box wrenc
h I believe and be sure to have a good magnifying glass handy to see the je
t number! I would not be afraid of a #240 or a #245 main jet, even with the
#276 needle jet and it's "matching" needle as supplied with your carb. Mak
e sure there is a brass flat washer behind the jet. It's there to prevent c
avitation of air, (whirlpool) into fuel around jet body, supposedly. Fuel l
evel should be close to 12mm from the top when bowl is carefully lowered, (
not easy without spilling).=0AQuestions;=0AWhat is your peak RPM and EGT, f
ull throttle, climb out?=0AWhat is your EGT at cruise RPM, part throttle at
say around 2800RPM?=0AWhat type of temperature measurement system are you
using? EIS? Single analog, digital? Individual cylinder capability? Or grou
p measurement?=0AMy thoughts are, get full throttle EGT's to 1200F to 1225F
.=0ACruise EGT's, if around 2800 or so, around 1325F.=0AOnce you get these
temps under control, the demand being placed on your "cooling systems" will
be greatly reduced.=0A=C2- Hope this helps....DonB=0A=0A--------=0AZenit
h 701 #76120=0AJabiru 2200A #2456=C2- 95 hours=0ASensenich Wood 64-PJ-36
Prop=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronic
s.com/viewt * AeroElectric http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">http://www.http://forums.matronics.
com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com
/contribution =========== =0A_blank>www.aeroelectric.
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Has anyone seen or know anything about this EFI system? Looks interesting.
http://www.silent-hektik.com/UL_Jab22_1.htm
--------
Mike Bentley
Joplin, MO
Model 4-1200 (Rebuilding)
Jabiru 2200
GT Prop
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=359591#359591
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| Subject: | Re: CHT still high after cowling modification (test |
flight with
Jose, here is a link for the firewall forward installation of the type of plane
I have. My 701 is slower than yours and requires the large openings at both entrance
and exit to enjoy low and slow flying reliably. Notice the "mailbox" sized
openings on the cooling ducts.
http://www.usjabiru.com/zenith-ch701.html
What kind of temps did you get flying, with the cowling on of course, as this
is how you are going to use the plane!!
The baffle in the back roof of the cooling duct is meant to "dam" the air flow.
The more you trim away, the more air flow the back cylinder receives, at the
expense of flow to the front cylinder. Only very little is trimmed away to find
the balance of temperature front to rear. Finnish your modifications and test,
only change one thing at a time, test and verify...DonB
--------
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=359613#359613
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