Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:41 AM - Re: Hydraulic or solid.... (Lynn Matteson)
2. 12:35 PM - Re: Hydraulic or solid.... (Martin Hone)
3. 12:51 PM - Re: Hydraulic or solid.... (Lynn Matteson)
4. 02:14 PM - Re: Hydraulic or solid.... (Pete Krotje)
5. 02:38 PM - Re: Hydraulic or solid.... (Martin Hone)
6. 03:12 PM - Re: Hydraulic or solid.... (Nick Otterback)
7. 03:27 PM - Re: Hydraulic or solid.... (Martin Hone)
8. 04:30 PM - Re: Hydraulic or solid.... (Tex Mantell)
9. 04:55 PM - Re: Hydraulic or solid.... (Kayberg@aol.com)
10. 04:57 PM - Re: Hydraulic or solid.... (James, Clive R)
11. 11:23 PM - More P + M (James, Clive R)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Hydraulic or solid.... |
The short answer is they thought they were ready to make their engine
behave like a Lycoming or Continental....but history has shown they
weren't ready. They wanted what the big boys had...simple
maintenance, but the rest of the engine got in the way. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1229 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Feb 19, 2012, at 5:15 PM, James, Clive R wrote:
> 2 - Positive Valve Opening. Even at lower revs a hydraulically
> operated valve suffers from a soft and soggy opening operation.
> By replacing this with a positive mechanical lift, a more precise
> motion is achieved. This leads to a faster change in manifold
> vacuum, greater gas speed and ...more power!
>
> 3 - Predictable Operation. Hydraulic lifters are subjected to large
> and frequent variations in oil pressure and temperature. Solid
> lifters are a known quantity that simplify valve operation and
> remove such variables.
>
> 4 - Weight and friction reduction. A solid lifter is 10% lighter
> than it's hydraulic counterpart, and given the overall weight of
> CVH valve train, this is an important bonus. Any loss of weight in
> this area will help with engine efficiency and life expectancy.
> Also, a hydraulic lifter exerts a constant pressure to the total
> circumference of each lobe base circle resulting in a certain
> amount of drag. A solid lifter does not contact the camshaft base
> circle, so internal friction is reduced.
>
> Remind me why they changed them?
>
> ============================================================ _-
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
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| Subject: | Re: Hydraulic or solid.... |
All good points, but the biggest mistake Jabiru made was foisting the
engine onto an unsuspecting market when it hadn't received adequate
testing. Can you imagine what their reputation would be like if it had
powered a motor car or motorcycle ?
Marty
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:41 AM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
>
> The short answer is they thought they were ready to make their engine
> behave like a Lycoming or Continental....but history has shown they weren
't
> ready. They wanted what the big boys had...simple maintenance, but the re
st
> of the engine got in the way. : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062
> Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
> Status: flying with 1229 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
>
>
> On Feb 19, 2012, at 5:15 PM, James, Clive R wrote:
>
> 2 - Positive Valve Opening. Even at lower revs a hydraulically operated
>> valve suffers from a =9Csoft and soggy=9D opening operation
. By replacing this
>> with a positive mechanical lift, a more precise motion is achieved. This
>> leads to a faster change in manifold vacuum, greater gas speed and
>> ...more power!
>>
>> 3 - Predictable Operation. Hydraulic lifters are subjected to large and
>> frequent variations in oil pressure and temperature. Solid lifters are a
>> known quantity that simplify valve operation and remove such variables.
>>
>> 4 - Weight and friction reduction. A solid lifter is 10% lighter than
>> it's hydraulic counterpart, and given the overall weight of CVH valve
>> train, this is an important bonus. Any loss of weight in this area will
>> help with engine efficiency and life expectancy. Also, a hydraulic lifte
r
>> exerts a constant pressure to the total circumference of each lobe base
>> circle resulting in a certain amount of drag. A solid lifter does not
>> contact the camshaft base circle, so internal friction is reduced.
>>
>> Remind me why they changed them?
>>
>> ========================
======**==================
============ _-
>> www.matronics.com/**contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
===
>> **=======================
=======**=
>>
>
>
=====**===================
===========**=
/www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List>
=====**===================
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com/contribution>
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Hydraulic or solid.... |
I'm guessing that their reputation would be in the dumpster, due to
the greater number of people who would have bought one (motorcycle or
car/truck) and ended up along the edge of the road.
Lynn
On Feb 21, 2012, at 3:33 PM, Martin Hone wrote:
> All good points, but the biggest mistake Jabiru made was foisting
> the engine onto an unsuspecting market when it hadn't received
> adequate testing. Can you imagine what their reputation would be
> like if it had powered a motor car or motorcycle ?
>
> Marty
>
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:41 AM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> wrote:
> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> The short answer is they thought they were ready to make their
> engine behave like a Lycoming or Continental....but history has
> shown they weren't ready. They wanted what the big boys
> had...simple maintenance, but the rest of the engine got in the
> way. : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062
> Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
> Status: flying with 1229 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
>
>
> On Feb 19, 2012, at 5:15 PM, James, Clive R wrote:
>
> 2 - Positive Valve Opening. Even at lower revs a hydraulically
> operated valve suffers from a soft and soggy opening operation.
> By replacing this with a positive mechanical lift, a more precise
> motion is achieved. This leads to a faster change in manifold
> vacuum, greater gas speed and ...more power!
>
> 3 - Predictable Operation. Hydraulic lifters are subjected to large
> and frequent variations in oil pressure and temperature. Solid
> lifters are a known quantity that simplify valve operation and
> remove such variables.
>
> 4 - Weight and friction reduction. A solid lifter is 10% lighter
> than it's hydraulic counterpart, and given the overall weight of
> CVH valve train, this is an important bonus. Any loss of weight in
> this area will help with engine efficiency and life expectancy.
> Also, a hydraulic lifter exerts a constant pressure to the total
> circumference of each lobe base circle resulting in a certain
> amount of drag. A solid lifter does not contact the camshaft base
> circle, so internal friction is reduced.
>
> Remind me why they changed them?
>
> =================================== _-www.matronics.com/
> contribution===============================
>
>
> ===================================
> -
> ine-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?
> JabiruEngine-List
> ===================================
> MS -
> k">http://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
> e -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
>
>
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
Message 4
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| Subject: | Hydraulic or solid.... |
Sort of like foisting water cooled heads unto an unsuspecting public and
assuring that they will go to TBO when there is no evidence to support
that.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Martin Hone
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Hydraulic or solid....
All good points, but the biggest mistake Jabiru made was foisting the
engine onto an unsuspecting market when it hadn't received adequate
testing. Can you imagine what their reputation would be like if it had
powered a motor car or motorcycle ?
Marty
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:41 AM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
<lynnmatt@jps.net>
The short answer is they thought they were ready to make their engine
behave like a Lycoming or Continental....but history has shown they
weren't ready. They wanted what the big boys had...simple maintenance,
but the rest of the engine got in the way. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1229 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Feb 19, 2012, at 5:15 PM, James, Clive R wrote:
2 - Positive Valve Opening. Even at lower revs a hydraulically operated
valve suffers from a =9Csoft and soggy=9D opening
operation. By replacing this with a positive mechanical lift, a more
precise motion is achieved. This leads to a faster change in manifold
vacuum, greater gas speed and ...more power!
3 - Predictable Operation. Hydraulic lifters are subjected to large and
frequent variations in oil pressure and temperature. Solid lifters are a
known quantity that simplify valve operation and remove such variables.
4 - Weight and friction reduction. A solid lifter is 10% lighter than
it's hydraulic counterpart, and given the overall weight of CVH valve
train, this is an important bonus. Any loss of weight in this area will
help with engine efficiency and life expectancy. Also, a hydraulic
lifter exerts a constant pressure to the total circumference of each
lobe base circle resulting in a certain amount of drag. A solid lifter
does not contact the camshaft base circle, so internal friction is
reduced.
Remind me why they changed them?
==========
_-www.matronics.com/contribution==============
=================
-
ine-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Hydraulic or solid.... |
Hi Pete,
That's a fair comment, except that a lot more engineering and research went
into the LC heads than ever went into the original aircooled heads, or
since .....
But I don't wish to get into a slanging match. I just wish that Jab will
get to the point that it lives up to its promise,
Cheers
Marty
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 8:12 AM, Pete Krotje <pete@usjabiru.com> wrote:
> Sort of like foisting water cooled heads unto an unsuspecting public and
> assuring that they will go to TBO when there is no evidence to support th
at.
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> Pete****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Martin Hone
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:34 PM
> *To:* jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: JabiruEngine-List: Hydraulic or solid....****
>
> ** **
>
> All good points, but the biggest mistake Jabiru made was foisting the
> engine onto an unsuspecting market when it hadn't received adequate
> testing. Can you imagine what their reputation would be like if it had
> powered a motor car or motorcycle ?****
>
> ** **
>
> Marty****
>
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:41 AM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:*
*
> **
>
>
> The short answer is they thought they were ready to make their engine
> behave like a Lycoming or Continental....but history has shown they weren
't
> ready. They wanted what the big boys had...simple maintenance, but the re
st
> of the engine got in the way. : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062
> Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
> Status: flying with 1229 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
>
>
> On Feb 19, 2012, at 5:15 PM, James, Clive R wrote:****
>
> 2 - Positive Valve Opening. Even at lower revs a hydraulically operated
> valve suffers from a =9Csoft and soggy=9D opening operation.
By replacing this
> with a positive mechanical lift, a more precise motion is achieved. This
> leads to a faster change in manifold vacuum, greater gas speed and
> ...more power!
>
> 3 - Predictable Operation. Hydraulic lifters are subjected to large and
> frequent variations in oil pressure and temperature. Solid lifters are a
> known quantity that simplify valve operation and remove such variables.
>
> 4 - Weight and friction reduction. A solid lifter is 10% lighter than it'
s
> hydraulic counterpart, and given the overall weight of CVH valve train,
> this is an important bonus. Any loss of weight in this area will help wit
h
> engine efficiency and life expectancy. Also, a hydraulic lifter exerts a
> constant pressure to the total circumference of each lobe base circle
> resulting in a certain amount of drag. A solid lifter does not contact th
e
> camshaft base circle, so internal friction is reduced.
>
> Remind me why they changed them?
>
> ========================
=========== _-www.matronics.com/contribution
> =======****
>
>
> ==========
> -
> ine-List" target="_blank">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
> ==========
> MS -
> k">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> e -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ========================
===========
>
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Hydraulic or solid.... |
We have been installing the 3300s in our Lightning Design now since
2006. The first aircraft had solid lifter engines, all since the
introduction of the hydraulic lifter have been fitted with that. Many
aircraft have several hundred hours on them with out exhibiting these
problems being discussed. Even a few nearing 1000hours.
We have not seen increased oil temperatures, or oil consumption, or lack
of horsepower. The aircraft flying today are swinging more aggressive
props than we ever have, and still pulling the RPM that Jabiru requires.
If the engine were lacking in power or torque I would think that a less
aggressive prop would be needed, or at least less REVS noted in given
configurations, that is just not that case.
Jabiru USA has a very nice service center. Recently a 4 cylinder
hydraulic lifter engine came in for the 1000 hour top end. No prior work
has been done to the engine. If the valves are not opening and closing
as they should you would expect to see this in the combustion chamber
right? Again not the case for this engine, certainly not a babied one at
that, it came out of a flight school. Now of course it was on a Jabiru
airplane that has a proper cowling design. The engine is turning the
correct prop to get the correct REVS, which in turn keeps the engine
from lugging along and stressing it.
I guess what I see are improper installation and operation on a regular
basis that in turn causes problems for the engine. Either cowl design
and overheating, prop load from the guy wanting is plane to go faster
than it really can, or expecting an internal combusting engine to do
something special with the fuel you give it. If you over prop the engine
or let it run rich for many hours you cause a lot of problems with the
valve train and combusting chambers. The opposite is true when you get
that great fuel economy you might boast about.
I don=99t speak from hear say or theories on what I think should
happen. This is from many years of experience with the engine,
operation, rebuilds, and general maintenance. Many of the junk parts we
collect are attributed to one of the above mentioned problems. IF you
dig into what happened you usually will get the rest of the story and
find it was not in-fact the engines fault by design but the end user.
Just my experiences with a wide variety of Jabiru Installations, Proper
and otherwise.
Nick Otterback
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete
Krotje
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:13 PM
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Hydraulic or solid....
Sort of like foisting water cooled heads unto an unsuspecting public and
assuring that they will go to TBO when there is no evidence to support
that.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Martin Hone
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Hydraulic or solid....
All good points, but the biggest mistake Jabiru made was foisting the
engine onto an unsuspecting market when it hadn't received adequate
testing. Can you imagine what their reputation would be like if it had
powered a motor car or motorcycle ?
Marty
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:41 AM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
<lynnmatt@jps.net>
The short answer is they thought they were ready to make their engine
behave like a Lycoming or Continental....but history has shown they
weren't ready. They wanted what the big boys had...simple maintenance,
but the rest of the engine got in the way. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1229 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Feb 19, 2012, at 5:15 PM, James, Clive R wrote:
2 - Positive Valve Opening. Even at lower revs a hydraulically operated
valve suffers from a =9Csoft and soggy=9D opening
operation. By replacing this with a positive mechanical lift, a more
precise motion is achieved. This leads to a faster change in manifold
vacuum, greater gas speed and ...more power!
3 - Predictable Operation. Hydraulic lifters are subjected to large and
frequent variations in oil pressure and temperature. Solid lifters are a
known quantity that simplify valve operation and remove such variables.
4 - Weight and friction reduction. A solid lifter is 10% lighter than
it's hydraulic counterpart, and given the overall weight of CVH valve
train, this is an important bonus. Any loss of weight in this area will
help with engine efficiency and life expectancy. Also, a hydraulic
lifter exerts a constant pressure to the total circumference of each
lobe base circle resulting in a certain amount of drag. A solid lifter
does not contact the camshaft base circle, so internal friction is
reduced.
Remind me why they changed them?
==========
_-www.matronics.com/contribution======
-
ine-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Hydraulic or solid.... |
Great report Nick. Thanks for posting. It is good to see that it is not
all 'doom and gloom.'
Nevertheless, there is far too many factory-built, and kit-built to factory
spec., aircraft that are having issues that aren't due to too rich mixture
or over-propping.
Cheers
Marty
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 9:11 AM, Nick Otterback <nick@flylightning.net>wrot
e:
> ** **
>
> We have been installing the 3300s in our Lightning Design now since 2006.
> The first aircraft had solid lifter engines, all since the introduction o
f
> the hydraulic lifter have been fitted with that. Many aircraft have sever
al
> hundred hours on them with out exhibiting these problems being discussed.
> Even a few nearing 1000hours. ****
>
> ** **
>
> We have not seen increased oil temperatures, or oil consumption, or lack
> of horsepower. The aircraft flying today are swinging more aggressive
> props than we ever have, and still pulling the RPM that Jabiru requires.
> If the engine were lacking in power or torque I would think that a less
> aggressive prop would be needed, or at least less REVS noted in given
> configurations, that is just not that case.****
>
> ** **
>
> Jabiru USA has a very nice service center. Recently a 4 cylinder hydrauli
c
> lifter engine came in for the 1000 hour top end. No prior work has been
> done to the engine. If the valves are not opening and closing as they
> should you would expect to see this in the combustion chamber right? Agai
n
> not the case for this engine, certainly not a babied one at that, it came
> out of a flight school. Now of course it was on a Jabiru airplane that ha
s
> a proper cowling design. The engine is turning the correct prop to get t
he
> correct REVS, which in turn keeps the engine from lugging along and
> stressing it.****
>
> ** **
>
> I guess what I see are improper installation and operation on a regular
> basis that in turn causes problems for the engine. Either cowl design an
d
> overheating, prop load from the guy wanting is plane to go faster than it
> really can, or expecting an internal combusting engine to do something
> special with the fuel you give it. If you over prop the engine or let it
> run rich for many hours you cause a lot of problems with the valve train
> and combusting chambers. The opposite is true when you get that great fue
l
> economy you might boast about. ****
>
> ** **
>
> I don=99t speak from hear say or theories on what I think should ha
ppen.
> This is from many years of experience with the engine, operation, rebuild
s,
> and general maintenance. Many of the junk parts we collect are attribute
d
> to one of the above mentioned problems. IF you dig into what happened you
> usually will get the rest of the story and find it was not in-fact the
> engines fault by design but the end user.****
>
> ** **
>
> Just my experiences with a wide variety of Jabiru Installations, Proper
> and otherwise. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Nick Otterback****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Pete Krotje
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:13 PM
> *To:* jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: JabiruEngine-List: Hydraulic or solid....****
>
> ** **
>
> Sort of like foisting water cooled heads unto an unsuspecting public and
> assuring that they will go to TBO when there is no evidence to support th
at.
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> Pete****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Mart
in
> Hone
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:34 PM
> *To:* jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: JabiruEngine-List: Hydraulic or solid....****
>
> ** **
>
> All good points, but the biggest mistake Jabiru made was foisting the
> engine onto an unsuspecting market when it hadn't received adequate
> testing. Can you imagine what their reputation would be like if it had
> powered a motor car or motorcycle ?****
>
> ** **
>
> Marty****
>
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:41 AM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:*
*
> **
>
>
> The short answer is they thought they were ready to make their engine
> behave like a Lycoming or Continental....but history has shown they weren
't
> ready. They wanted what the big boys had...simple maintenance, but the re
st
> of the engine got in the way. : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062
> Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
> Status: flying with 1229 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
>
>
> On Feb 19, 2012, at 5:15 PM, James, Clive R wrote:****
>
> 2 - Positive Valve Opening. Even at lower revs a hydraulically operated
> valve suffers from a =9Csoft and soggy=9D opening operation.
By replacing this
> with a positive mechanical lift, a more precise motion is achieved. This
> leads to a faster change in manifold vacuum, greater gas speed and
> ...more power!
>
> 3 - Predictable Operation. Hydraulic lifters are subjected to large and
> frequent variations in oil pressure and temperature. Solid lifters are a
> known quantity that simplify valve operation and remove such variables.
>
> 4 - Weight and friction reduction. A solid lifter is 10% lighter than it'
s
> hydraulic counterpart, and given the overall weight of CVH valve train,
> this is an important bonus. Any loss of weight in this area will help wit
h
> engine efficiency and life expectancy. Also, a hydraulic lifter exerts a
> constant pressure to the total circumference of each lobe base circle
> resulting in a certain amount of drag. A solid lifter does not contact th
e
> camshaft base circle, so internal friction is reduced.
>
> Remind me why they changed them?
>
> ========================
=========== _-www.matronics.com/contribution
> =======****
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> ==========
> MS -
> k">http://forums.matronics.com
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> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Hydraulic or solid.... |
I have been on this site from the start, and have to laugh
at all the piss and moaning about the Jabiru engines. I have a 2200 4
cyl. jab (bought in 1995) in my Kitfox and a 3300 6 cyl. in my
Lightning. The only thing wrong with either one is you have to change
the oil every 25 or 35 hours. I have helped 6 owners in my area that had
problems with the Jabiru and each was due to improper installation. If
you want problems just read each issue of sport aviation about other
engines. Everybody I talk to call the sport aviation magazine the
"monthly rotax service bulletin".
PS. The one problem with the 3300 in my Lightning is that its to dam
fast.
Tex
-----
Original Message -----
From: Martin Hone
To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Hydraulic or solid....
Great report Nick. Thanks for posting. It is good to see that it is
not all 'doom and gloom.'
Nevertheless, there is far too many factory-built, and kit-built to
factory spec., aircraft that are having issues that aren't due to too
rich mixture or over-propping.
Cheers
Marty
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 9:11 AM, Nick Otterback
<nick@flylightning.net> wrote:
We have been installing the 3300s in our Lightning Design now since
2006. The first aircraft had solid lifter engines, all since the
introduction of the hydraulic lifter have been fitted with that. Many
aircraft have several hundred hours on them with out exhibiting these
problems being discussed. Even a few nearing 1000hours.
We have not seen increased oil temperatures, or oil consumption, or
lack of horsepower. The aircraft flying today are swinging more
aggressive props than we ever have, and still pulling the RPM that
Jabiru requires. If the engine were lacking in power or torque I would
think that a less aggressive prop would be needed, or at least less REVS
noted in given configurations, that is just not that case.
Jabiru USA has a very nice service center. Recently a 4 cylinder
hydraulic lifter engine came in for the 1000 hour top end. No prior work
has been done to the engine. If the valves are not opening and closing
as they should you would expect to see this in the combustion chamber
right? Again not the case for this engine, certainly not a babied one at
that, it came out of a flight school. Now of course it was on a Jabiru
airplane that has a proper cowling design. The engine is turning the
correct prop to get the correct REVS, which in turn keeps the engine
from lugging along and stressing it.
I guess what I see are improper installation and operation on a
regular basis that in turn causes problems for the engine. Either cowl
design and overheating, prop load from the guy wanting is plane to go
faster than it really can, or expecting an internal combusting engine to
do something special with the fuel you give it. If you over prop the
engine or let it run rich for many hours you cause a lot of problems
with the valve train and combusting chambers. The opposite is true when
you get that great fuel economy you might boast about.
I don=99t speak from hear say or theories on what I think
should happen. This is from many years of experience with the engine,
operation, rebuilds, and general maintenance. Many of the junk parts we
collect are attributed to one of the above mentioned problems. IF you
dig into what happened you usually will get the rest of the story and
find it was not in-fact the engines fault by design but the end user.
Just my experiences with a wide variety of Jabiru Installations,
Proper and otherwise.
Nick Otterback
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete
Krotje
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:13 PM
To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Hydraulic or solid....
Sort of like foisting water cooled heads unto an unsuspecting public
and assuring that they will go to TBO when there is no evidence to
support that.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Martin Hone
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:34 PM
To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Hydraulic or solid....
All good points, but the biggest mistake Jabiru made was foisting
the engine onto an unsuspecting market when it hadn't received adequate
testing. Can you imagine what their reputation would be like if it had
powered a motor car or motorcycle ?
Marty
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:41 AM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
wrote:
<lynnmatt@jps.net>
The short answer is they thought they were ready to make their
engine behave like a Lycoming or Continental....but history has shown
they weren't ready. They wanted what the big boys had...simple
maintenance, but the rest of the engine got in the way. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1229 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Feb 19, 2012, at 5:15 PM, James, Clive R wrote:
2 - Positive Valve Opening. Even at lower revs a hydraulically
operated valve suffers from a =9Csoft and soggy=9D opening
operation. By replacing this with a positive mechanical lift, a more
precise motion is achieved. This leads to a faster change in manifold
vacuum, greater gas speed and ...more power!
3 - Predictable Operation. Hydraulic lifters are subjected to large
and frequent variations in oil pressure and temperature. Solid lifters
are a known quantity that simplify valve operation and remove such
variables.
4 - Weight and friction reduction. A solid lifter is 10% lighter
than it's hydraulic counterpart, and given the overall weight of CVH
valve train, this is an important bonus. Any loss of weight in this area
will help with engine efficiency and life expectancy. Also, a hydraulic
lifter exerts a constant pressure to the total circumference of each
lobe base circle resulting in a certain amount of drag. A solid lifter
does not contact the camshaft base circle, so internal friction is
reduced.
Remind me why they changed them?
==========
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==========
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ine-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
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k">http://forums.matronics.com
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Hydraulic or solid.... |
One of the issues of aviation that some folks have trouble understanding
is the sheer differences in the production volumes between automotive and
aviation. Auto engines are tested in volume and built in the millions. And
they still have bad models, many of which are simply abandoned. The same
is true for motorcycles. Adequate testing? Even the Lycoming and
Continental engines which were basically designed in the 1930's continue to have
problems.
One of the clues should be the hand-made, CNC machined, composition of the
Jab. Not even designed to be mass-produced. The market for anything
aviation is frightfully small compared to cars and motorcycles. It will be
interesting to see how some of the newcomers to the small plane market fare
considering the increased complexity of fuel injection, electronic
ignition, liquid cooling, etc.
Thankfully Jabiru has been very wise in not jumping to improve the engine
by adding complexity and cost. I have had both the solid lifter and
hydraulic lifter 2200's. Adjusting the valves was a nuisance. Anyone who has
torn down engines in some variety will recognize just how good the design of
the Jab is. Frankly, even if you have to overhaul the heads every 500
hours, it is still a bargain.
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 2/21/2012 3:35:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
aerobiz1@gmail.com writes:
All good points, but the biggest mistake Jabiru made was foisting the
engine onto an unsuspecting market when it hadn't received adequate testing.
Can you imagine what their reputation would be like if it had powered a motor
car or motorcycle ?
Marty
Message 10
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| Subject: | Hydraulic or solid.... |
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DQogDQo
Message 11
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http://www.aircraftpilots.com/threads/rolled-thread-engine-through-bolts
-available-as-alternative.27624/page-6
Some well put points here with both camps represented.
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