Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:50 AM - Re: valve problem (Lynn Matteson)
2. 06:31 AM - Re: valve problem (BobsV35B@aol.com)
3. 11:04 AM - Re: valve problem (Dennis W. Wilt)
4. 11:45 AM - Re: valve problem (BobsV35B@aol.com)
5. 12:44 PM - Re: valve problem (Dennis W. Wilt)
6. 01:30 PM - Re: valve problem (BobsV35B@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
Good morning Bob-
I haven't spoken with you for a while now...good to hear from you
As to the "cushioning" effect of the lead in leaded gasoline, I offer
the following two anecdotes that I had first-hand knowledge of:
First, I used to work at the Chrysler Proving Grounds as a driver/
mechanic. When the talk of unleaded fuels first appeared, we had a
big-block engine...either a 383 or 413 cu. inch...that we were going
to use as a test vehicle for this fuel. In short order...I don't
recall how long....the engine began to run roughly, and it was
revealed that the valve seats were being "pounded" into the heads.
(The hydraulic valve adjusters compensated for the change in valve
geometry until they ran out of compensation) A few days later a new
set of heads arrived, and they had been "induction hardened"
according to one of the engineers involved in the project. I could
see an area of blue around the valve seats....my memory has faded
enough that I don't recall if all the valve seats were done or only
the exhausts, but it seems like it was only the exhausts.
Cut to about 20 years later (as I recall) and I was living in
California and driving a 1973 Datsun Z, and when California stopped
selling leaded fuel, and I was forced to use it in my Z, the engine
began to run a bit roughly, and I found some valves that were too
tight in their adjustments for clearance. I adjusted accordingly, and
a few weeks later, had to adjust again. And on and on, until I ran
out of adjustment on the rocker arms. Because I needed to keep the Z
running for transportation to work, I got another head from a scrap
yard and dropped it off at the auto machine shop for a valve job and
the installation of hardened seats. To my surprise, the techie called
me and said that this head already had hardened seats installed. That
head is still on my Z and is still running.
So whatever the reason, the leaded fuel did not harm my engine as it
relates to valve operation, but that unleaded stuff sure did a number
on it.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1236 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Mar 17, 2012, at 4:15 PM, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
> Good Afternoon Gary,
>
> Just parroting what I have been taught by George Braly, Tim Roehl
> and many others who have seriously studied the issue.
>
> The folks who promote lead for cushioning and lubrication seem to
> be those same folks who claim that lean side operations are hard on
> our engines. As George is fond of saying: "It is not how hard we
> run our engines it is how we run our engines hard!"
>
> First heard such things back when I had a sail boat with an
> auxiliary engine (Atomic Four) of which the hand book said should
> only be fed "white" gas. About that same time there was an article
> in Sail Magazine purportedly written by the retired Ethyl engineer
> who had developed Tetra Ethyl Lead for octane enhancement. He
> mentioned that the lead had no real good properties at all other
> than as an Octane enhancer. It was, in fact, poisonous and bad
> stuff to handle. He wrote that when the PR people were trying to
> sell the public on using the Ethyl compound, they invented the idea
> that it may help lubrication and may cushion the valves.
>
> The engineers that worked for the Ethyl corporation stated that
> there was NO basis for making that claim, but the brass went with
> the PR folks and we are still suffering from that false premise.
>
> I do hope we get rid of lead. I also feel it is imperative that we
> get a 100 octane fuel by whatever means it can be done without
> using lead.
>
> I agree with those who say the amount of lead we use is not a
> health problem, but the lead is not good for our engines either!
>
> I hope George gets his no lead fuel (100UL he calls it) approved
> and I hope Swift fuel is also successful. Meanwhile, I want the
> lowest quantity of lead in my fuel that can do the job.
>
> Sure would make the plugs last longer!
>
> I figure the higher end solvents loosened up your fuel valve, but
> that is strictly a WAG!
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
> TN IO-550-B that needs that fancy fuel!
> W670 that doesn't care at all.
> Downers Grove, Illinois
>
> In a message dated 3/17/2012 2:26:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> zeprep251@aol.com writes:
> Bob,
> The issue of valve seat recession with early on unleaded fuel comes
> to mind, but you may never have had to deal with that in your frame
> of experience.That was addressed with additives as well as other
> additives for other issues like alcohol separation,one of the
> reasons motor fuel smells so nice and does such a good job of
> removing sloshing compound from older aircraft fuel tanks.I could
> run the 87octane in the D35 with the E series engine, but after a
> while the fuel selector got too stiff to turn.A dose of 100LL freed
> it up quickly,so I figured it lubed it some as well,just had to run
> some 100 now and then.But you could be right and I don't mind.You
> will probably get your wish for unleaded 100 sooner than you might
> think.It's high on the EPA's list. Thanks,always enjoy your
> input,Gary Aman Mk3c Jabiru 2200a
>
>
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
Good Morning Lynn,
Do you recall what the engineers decided was the problem at Chrysler?
When I attended school concerning engine operation, such problems were
noted.
Lead does a good low cost job of controlling the rate of combustion. Take
away the lead and the combustion characteristics may change in a negative
direction. It seems reasonable that changing the combustion characteristics
will affect engine operations and the change needs to be considered.
In a very general way, take out the lead and you need to lower the
compression ratio.
There are ways of controlling the timing of fuel into the cylinder that can
allow higher compression with unleaded fuel, but such things are way above
my pay grade!
Once again. I am not an engineer, just an interested student of the
results.
I have never found a graduate engineer trained in the field that felt lead
was beneficial to the engine, though the lead was the cheapest way to
eliminate detonation.
I think we can all agree that detonation is a bad thing!
Taking away the lead will certainly change the combustion characteristics.
That we do have to consider when we set up the engine.
Your experience certainly emphasizes the point that small changes often
have unforeseen results.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 3/18/2012 6:50:31 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
lynnmatt@jps.net writes:
--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Good morning Bob-
I haven't spoken with you for a while now...good to hear from you
As to the "cushioning" effect of the lead in leaded gasoline, I offer
the following two anecdotes that I had first-hand knowledge of:
First, I used to work at the Chrysler Proving Grounds as a driver/
mechanic. When the talk of unleaded fuels first appeared, we had a
big-block engine...either a 383 or 413 cu. inch...that we were going
to use as a test vehicle for this fuel. In short order...I don't
recall how long....the engine began to run roughly, and it was
revealed that the valve seats were being "pounded" into the heads.
(The hydraulic valve adjusters compensated for the change in valve
geometry until they ran out of compensation) A few days later a new
set of heads arrived, and they had been "induction hardened"
according to one of the engineers involved in the project. I could
see an area of blue around the valve seats....my memory has faded
enough that I don't recall if all the valve seats were done or only
the exhausts, but it seems like it was only the exhausts.
Cut to about 20 years later (as I recall) and I was living in
California and driving a 1973 Datsun Z, and when California stopped
selling leaded fuel, and I was forced to use it in my Z, the engine
began to run a bit roughly, and I found some valves that were too
tight in their adjustments for clearance. I adjusted accordingly, and
a few weeks later, had to adjust again. And on and on, until I ran
out of adjustment on the rocker arms. Because I needed to keep the Z
running for transportation to work, I got another head from a scrap
yard and dropped it off at the auto machine shop for a valve job and
the installation of hardened seats. To my surprise, the techie called
me and said that this head already had hardened seats installed. That
head is still on my Z and is still running.
So whatever the reason, the leaded fuel did not harm my engine as it
relates to valve operation, but that unleaded stuff sure did a number
on it.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1236 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
I am an owner of a 1967 Mustang, 390cid. These engines were designed to ru
n on 100 octane leaded gas. When I rebuilt the engine in 1998, I had the m
achine shop install hardened valve seats and they also hardened the exhaust
ports. Unleaded fuel burns much hotter than leaded fuel and will absolute
ly eat up the valve seats on an engine designed to run on leaded fuel. The
exhaust ports may not have needed to be hardened, but what the heck, I did
it anyway. BTW, when I can (and this is usually all the time) I run aviat
ion 100LL in my Mustang.
Have a wonderful day,
Dennis
N616DW (Arion Lightning S/N 132)
-----Original Message-----
From: BobsV35B <BobsV35B@aol.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 18, 2012 9:31 am
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: valve problem
Good Morning Lynn,
Do you recall what the engineers decided was the problem at Chrysler?
When I attended school concerning engine operation, such problems were note
d.
Lead does a good low cost job of controlling the rate of combustion. Take a
way the lead and the combustion characteristics may change in a negative di
rection. It seems reasonable that changing the combustion characteristics w
ill affect engine operations and the change needs to be considered.
In a very general way, take out the lead and you need to lower the compress
ion ratio.
There are ways of controlling the timing of fuel into the cylinder that can
allow higher compression with unleaded fuel, but such things are way above
my pay grade!
Once again. I am not an engineer, just an interested student of the results
.
I have never found a graduate engineer trained in the field that felt lead
was beneficial to the engine, though the lead was the cheapest way to elimi
nate detonation.
I think we can all agree that detonation is a bad thing!
Taking away the lead will certainly change the combustion characteristics.
That we do have to consider when we set up the engine.
Your experience certainly emphasizes the point that small changes often hav
e unforeseen results.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 3/18/2012 6:50:31 A.M. Central Daylight Time, lynnmatt@j
ps.net writes:
Good morning Bob-
I haven't spoken with you for a while now...good to hear from you
As to the "cushioning" effect of the lead in leaded gasoline, I offer
the following two anecdotes that I had first-hand knowledge of:
First, I used to work at the Chrysler Proving Grounds as a driver/
mechanic. When the talk of unleaded fuels first appeared, we had a
big-block engine...either a 383 or 413 cu. inch...that we were going
to use as a test vehicle for this fuel. In short order...I don't
recall how long....the engine began to run roughly, and it was
revealed that the valve seats were being "pounded" into the heads.
(The hydraulic valve adjusters compensated for the change in valve
geometry until they ran out of compensation) A few days later a new
set of heads arrived, and they had been "induction hardened"
according to one of the engineers involved in the project. I could
see an area of blue around the valve seats....my memory has faded
enough that I don't recall if all the valve seats were done or only
the exhausts, but it seems like it was only the exhausts.
Cut to about 20 years later (as I recall) and I was living in
California and driving a 1973 Datsun Z, and when California stopped
selling leaded fuel, and I was forced to use it in my Z, the engine
began to run a bit roughly, and I found some valves that were too
tight in their adjustments for clearance. I adjusted accordingly, and
a few weeks later, had to adjust again. And on and on, until I ran
out of adjustment on the rocker arms. Because I needed to keep the Z
running for transportation to work, I got another head from a scrap
yard and dropped it off at the auto machine shop for a valve job and
the installation of hardened seats. To my surprise, the techie called
me and said that this head already had hardened seats installed. That
head is still on my Z and is still running.
So whatever the reason, the leaded fuel did not harm my engine as it
relates to valve operation, but that unleaded stuff sure did a number
on it.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1236 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
-= - The JabiruEngine-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
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-
-========================
-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
-
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-
-========================
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-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
Good Afternoon Dennis,
I really do not feel you can make a flat statement that leaded fuel burns
cooler than unleaded fuel.
It IS true that some engines will run hotter using unleaded fuel than they
will using leaded fuel, but that is because the cylinder pressure is too
high. Has nothing to do with lead or no lead.
Fuel formulations are different all over the country. The fuel is a mixture
of chemicals that meet industry standards. That is true for aviation fuel
as well as non aviation fuel.
If you are running a low compression engine, the lead is just a waste of
money and has no effect on how hot the mixture will burn. Using aviation
fuel does help if the car is not used often. Aviation fuel has a more stable
nature and can be left in the tank for months without gumming up anything.
If you are burning valves when using unleaded fuel, you are probably
getting detonation. Possibly even pre-ignition. If that happens, the engine will
definitely run hotter!
What substantiation do you have that the leaded fuel burns cooler? I have
never heard that nor have I read anything that makes that statement, but am
always willing to learn.
There is more energy in each gallon of lower octane fuel. The higher octane
fuels weigh just a bit less than the low octane fuels and we therefore can
get a bit more energy out of low octane fuel than we can from high octane
fuel, but we cannot run at as high a cylinder pressure when running low
octane fuel.
We use high compression ratios to get more power out of the same size
engine and the high compression can gain some efficiency provided it has a
high octane fuel.
There are other formulations that can raise the octane of the fuel, but the
components are much more expensive than Tetra Ethyl Lead.
If you can point me toward a reliable source that will tell us that leaded
fuel burns cooler than unleaded fuel, I would sure like to find out where I
am wrong.
Always learning something new!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 3/18/2012 1:04:10 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
dwwilt@aol.com writes:
I am an owner of a 1967 Mustang, 390cid. These engines were designed to
run on 100 octane leaded gas. When I rebuilt the engine in 1998, I had the
machine shop install hardened valve seats and they also hardened the
exhaust ports. Unleaded fuel burns much hotter than leaded fuel and will
absolutely eat up the valve seats on an engine designed to run on leaded fuel.
The exhaust ports may not have needed to be hardened, but what the heck, I
did it anyway. BTW, when I can (and this is usually all the time) I run
aviation 100LL in my Mustang.
Have a wonderful day,
Dennis
N616DW (_Arion Lightning_ (http://www.flylightning.net/) S/N 132)
-----Original Message-----
From: BobsV35B <BobsV35B@aol.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 18, 2012 9:31 am
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: valve problem
Good Morning Lynn,
Do you recall what the engineers decided was the problem at Chrysler?
When I attended school concerning engine operation, such problems were
noted.
Lead does a good low cost job of controlling the rate of combustion. Take
away the lead and the combustion characteristics may change in a negative
direction. It seems reasonable that changing the combustion characteristics
will affect engine operations and the change needs to be considered.
In a very general way, take out the lead and you need to lower the
compression ratio.
There are ways of controlling the timing of fuel into the cylinder that
can allow higher compression with unleaded fuel, but such things are way above
my pay grade!
Once again. I am not an engineer, just an interested student of the
results.
I have never found a graduate engineer trained in the field that felt lead
was beneficial to the engine, though the lead was the cheapest way to
eliminate detonation.
I think we can all agree that detonation is a bad thing!
Taking away the lead will certainly change the combustion characteristics.
That we do have to consider when we set up the engine.
Your experience certainly emphasizes the point that small changes often
have unforeseen results.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
Bob,
If you are running an engine designed to run on 100 octane fuel and you can
only get less than that, you will burn the valve seats. Any classic car g
uy will tell you that. Every old classic car engine that gets rebuilt will
have hardened seats installed or the machine shop doesn't understand older
engines running on unleaded / lower octane fuel. Especially those with hi
gher compression engines. I could probably get buy without using hardened
seats in a 200cid 6 cylinder from the 60's. You must know 100 octane anyth
ing burns cooler than 91 or less octane fuel. I should have said that sinc
e you can't buy 100 octane unleaded fuel (in most places) that auto fuel is
lower octane and burns hotter than 100LL.
Ethanol is horrible for older cars and their fuel lines that have not been
changed in a while. After about 4 years, all of my fuel lines began to lea
k because there is something in there that just makes them deteriorate. An
other problem with auto fuel is finding non-ethanol gas. Unless you go to
a marina, it is very difficult to find just anywhere. You surely can't us
e ethanol in a fiberglass tank. Talk to the marine folks about that one.
I have fiberglass tanks in my Lightning. I choose to use 100LL. Too hard
to find unleaded premium without ethanol and who is to say it may have it a
nyway since ethanol is standard now for car fuel.
Have a wonderful day,
Dennis
N616DW (Arion Lightning S/N 132)
-----Original Message-----
From: BobsV35B <BobsV35B@aol.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 18, 2012 2:46 pm
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: valve problem
Good Afternoon Dennis,
I really do not feel you can make a flat statement that leaded fuel burns c
ooler than unleaded fuel.
It IS true that some engines will run hotter using unleaded fuel than they
will using leaded fuel, but that is because the cylinder pressure is too hi
gh. Has nothing to do with lead or no lead.
Fuel formulations are different all over the country. The fuel is a mixture
of chemicals that meet industry standards. That is true for aviation fuel
as well as non aviation fuel.
If you are running a low compression engine, the lead is just a waste of mo
ney and has no effect on how hot the mixture will burn. Using aviation fue
l does help if the car is not used often. Aviation fuel has a more stable n
ature and can be left in the tank for months without gumming up anything.
If you are burning valves when using unleaded fuel, you are probably gettin
g detonation. Possibly even pre-ignition. If that happens, the engine will
definitely run hotter!
What substantiation do you have that the leaded fuel burns cooler? I have n
ever heard that nor have I read anything that makes that statement, but am
always willing to learn.
There is more energy in each gallon of lower octane fuel. The higher octane
fuels weigh just a bit less than the low octane fuels and we therefore can
get a bit more energy out of low octane fuel than we can from high octane
fuel, but we cannot run at as high a cylinder pressure when running low oct
ane fuel.
We use high compression ratios to get more power out of the same size engin
e and the high compression can gain some efficiency provided it has a high
octane fuel.
There are other formulations that can raise the octane of the fuel, but the
components are much more expensive than Tetra Ethyl Lead.
If you can point me toward a reliable source that will tell us that leaded
fuel burns cooler than unleaded fuel, I would sure like to find out where I
am wrong.
Always learning something new!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 3/18/2012 1:04:10 P.M. Central Daylight Time, dwwilt@aol
.com writes:
I am an owner of a 1967 Mustang, 390cid. These engines were designed to ru
n on 100 octane leaded gas. When I rebuilt the engine in 1998, I had the m
achine shop install hardened valve seats and they also hardened the exhaust
ports. Unleaded fuel burns much hotter than leaded fuel and will absolute
ly eat up the valve seats on an engine designed to run on leaded fuel. The
exhaust ports may not have needed to be hardened, but what the heck, I did
it anyway. BTW, when I can (and this is usually all the time) I run aviat
ion 100LL in my Mustang.
Have a wonderful day,
Dennis
N616DW (Arion Lightning S/N 132)
-----Original Message-----
From: BobsV35B <BobsV35B@aol.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 18, 2012 9:31 am
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: valve problem
Good Morning Lynn,
Do you recall what the engineers decided was the problem at Chrysler?
When I attended school concerning engine operation, such problems were note
d.
Lead does a good low cost job of controlling the rate of combustion. Take a
way the lead and the combustion characteristics may change in a negative di
rection. It seems reasonable that changing the combustion characteristics w
ill affect engine operations and the change needs to be considered.
In a very general way, take out the lead and you need to lower the compress
ion ratio.
There are ways of controlling the timing of fuel into the cylinder that can
allow higher compression with unleaded fuel, but such things are way above
my pay grade!
Once again. I am not an engineer, just an interested student of the results
.
I have never found a graduate engineer trained in the field that felt lead
was beneficial to the engine, though the lead was the cheapest way to elimi
nate detonation.
I think we can all agree that detonation is a bad thing!
Taking away the lead will certainly change the combustion characteristics.
That we do have to consider when we set up the engine.
Your experience certainly emphasizes the point that small changes often hav
e unforeseen results.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
-= - The JabiruEngine-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
-
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
-
-========================
-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
-
-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
-
-========================
-= - List Contribution Web Site -
-= Thank you for your generous support!
-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-========================
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
Good Afternoon Dennis,
I am afraid we are trying to talk about many things all at the same time.
Fact one. Engines that have high cylinder pressures will need a higher
octane fuel. (If we really want to get technical, we can change the delivery
system to inject the fuel in a way that will allow higher cylinder pressures
to be utilized with lower octane fuel. Things are being done with modern
automobile engines to address that problem, but discussion of such procedures
are far beyond my current capability.)
If no high octane fuel is available, we can get by with a lower octane fuel
by avoiding full throttle operation, but the safer way is to lower the
compression ratio.
Any fuel with higher octane will avoid detonation. The octane does not have
to be increased by using lead. There are other methods of getting high
octane, but those methods cost more than adding lead.
Fact Two. If you get detonation, you will probably burn valves and you may
blow the thing up! Even bend rods!
I do not see anywhere that you have shown that leaded fuel burns cooler.
What we agree on is that high compression ratios lead to high cylinder
pressures and we need a higher octane to safely run at those higher cylinder
pressures. Get detonation and the engine will run hotter, but that is NOT due
to the fuel inherently burning at a different temperature!
Fact Three. I am not a fan of Ethanol, but if it was all we had, our
engines and fuel delivery systems could be redesigned to utilize that fuel.
At the present time, Ethanol has less power available per gallon and the
cost is very high. Without subsidies, I doubt if anyone would voluntarily use
Ethanol.
Let us please take these problems one at a time so we can easily digest the
problems involved.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 3/18/2012 2:44:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
dwwilt@aol.com writes:
Bob,
If you are running an engine designed to run on 100 octane fuel and you
can only get less than that, you will burn the valve seats. Any classic car
guy will tell you that. Every old classic car engine that gets rebuilt
will have hardened seats installed or the machine shop doesn't understand
older engines running on unleaded / lower octane fuel. Especially those with
higher compression engines. I could probably get buy without using hardened
seats in a 200cid 6 cylinder from the 60's. You must know 100 octane
anything burns cooler than 91 or less octane fuel. I should have said that
since you can't buy 100 octane unleaded fuel (in most places) that auto fuel
is lower octane and burns hotter than 100LL.
Ethanol is horrible for older cars and their fuel lines that have not been
changed in a while. After about 4 years, all of my fuel lines began to
leak because there is something in there that just makes them deteriorate.
Another problem with auto fuel is finding non-ethanol gas. Unless you go
to a marina, it is very difficult to find just anywhere. You surely can't
use ethanol in a fiberglass tank. Talk to the marine folks about that one.
I have fiberglass tanks in my Lightning. I choose to use 100LL. Too hard
to find unleaded premium without ethanol and who is to say it may have it
anyway since ethanol is standard now for car fuel.
Have a wonderful day,
Dennis
N616DW (_Arion Lightning_ (http://www.flylightning.net/) S/N 132)
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