Today's Message Index:
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1. 11:14 AM - Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity (Tim Juhl)
2. 11:25 AM - Jabiru 3300 Modifications? (Tim Juhl)
3. 11:36 AM - Re: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity (David McCormick)
4. 11:45 AM - Re: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity (Nick Otterback)
5. 12:20 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity (JohnDRead@aol.com)
6. 01:28 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity (Pete Krotje)
7. 03:48 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity (Tim Juhl)
8. 05:15 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 Modifications? (Keith Pickford)
9. 05:56 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity (FLYaDIVE)
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| Subject: | Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity |
Also posted in Zenith 601 section
I attended a forum at Oshkosh where a fellow discussed his research on cooling
a Jabiru 3300. He had compared the spark plug washer type CHT sensors to ones
directly in the head and showed that they pretty consistently indicated CHT's
about 70 cooler than actual temperatures! If this is the case, Jab operators
could be cooking their engines while thinking that their CHT's were within safe
limits. He ended up designing a cooling baffling system that is nothing like
what comes from the factory and claimed that was the only way he was able to
get the CHT's under control.
I wonder what the rest of you Jabiru 3300 operators have to say about this? I'm
not flying mine yet but will be getting ready to hang it soon.
For a summary on the fellow who made the presentation check out http://www.eaaapps.org/presenterinfo.aspx?id=1973
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Wing modifications done - back working on the fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406639#406639
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| Subject: | Jabiru 3300 Modifications? |
I have an early hydraulic lifter 3300, still in the plastic, which I hope to install
on my Zenith 601 soon. I understand that a few changes have been made since
mine was built and wonder whether I need to consider incorporating any of
those changes prior to hanging the engine. I discussed it briefly with Pete
Krotje at Oshkosh, who suggested that barring evidence to the contrary, I needn't
do anything at this time. The two major items were:
Thru-bolts: They are now using longer bolts with special nuts. Pete said that
the bolt problem was pretty much restricted to a small number of flight school
4-cylinder Jabs and to his knowledge, had not been a problem with the 3300.
Has that been your experience?
Hydraulic Lifters: The early lifters would sometimes hold the valves open a bit
longer, evidenced by cooking some of the oil visible under the valve covers.
Has anyone observed this problem and been able to cure it by changing the lifters?
Any other recommendations are always welcome.
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Wing modifications done - back working on the fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406641#406641
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| Subject: | Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity |
I was there also=2C that guy was trying to reinvent the wheel
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity
> From: timjuhl@frontier.com
> Date: Tue=2C 13 Aug 2013 11:14:04 -0700
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
>
>
>
> Also posted in Zenith 601 section
>
> I attended a forum at Oshkosh where a fellow discussed his research on co
oling a Jabiru 3300. He had compared the spark plug washer type CHT sensors
to ones directly in the head and showed that they pretty consistently indi
cated CHT's about 70=C2=B0 cooler than actual temperatures! If this is the
case=2C Jab operators could be cooking their engines while thinking that th
eir CHT's were within safe limits. He ended up designing a cooling baffling
system that is nothing like what comes from the factory and claimed that w
as the only way he was able to get the CHT's under control.
>
> I wonder what the rest of you Jabiru 3300 operators have to say about thi
s? I'm not flying mine yet but will be getting ready to hang it soon.
>
> For a summary on the fellow who made the presentation check out http://ww
w.eaaapps.org/presenterinfo.aspx?id=1973
>
> Tim
>
> --------
> ______________
> CFII
> Champ L16A flying
> Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
> Wing modifications done - back working on the fuselage
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406639#406639
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity |
>From what I understand jabirus CHT limits are based on the CHT probe being
under the spark plug. Regardless of what is going on else where in the head,
this is where their testing comes from.
I would put the CHT probe under the exhaust spark plug as noted in the
installation manual, and use the limits set by jabiru.
We have been flying the 3300 in the Lightning design now since early 2006
and never have "cooked" and engine while operating inside the limitation set
forth by jabiru. We have over 130 aircraft flying with this engine and the
stock jabiru provided baffle system all over the world with no issues.
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft LLC
R&D Technical Support
931-680-1781
nick@flylightning.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Juhl
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 1:14 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity
--> <timjuhl@frontier.com>
Also posted in Zenith 601 section
I attended a forum at Oshkosh where a fellow discussed his research on
cooling a Jabiru 3300. He had compared the spark plug washer type CHT
sensors to ones directly in the head and showed that they pretty
consistently indicated CHT's about 70 cooler than actual temperatures! If
this is the case, Jab operators could be cooking their engines while
thinking that their CHT's were within safe limits. He ended up designing a
cooling baffling system that is nothing like what comes from the factory and
claimed that was the only way he was able to get the CHT's under control.
I wonder what the rest of you Jabiru 3300 operators have to say about this?
I'm not flying mine yet but will be getting ready to hang it soon.
For a summary on the fellow who made the presentation check out
http://www.eaaapps.org/presenterinfo.aspx?id=1973
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Wing modifications done - back working on the fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406639#406639
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity |
I was there also. I was very skeptical too about his opinions. I too would
use the baffling as provided from Jabiru USA and work from there.
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
In a message dated 8/13/2013 12:36:20 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
jabfox@hotmail.com writes:
I was there also, that guy was trying to reinvent the wheel
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity
> From: timjuhl@frontier.com
> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 11:14:04 -0700
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
>
> --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl"
<timjuhl@frontier.com>
>
> Also posted in Zenith 601 section
>
> I attended a forum at Oshkosh where a fellow discussed his research on
cooling a Jabiru 3300. He had compared the spark plug washer type CHT
sensors to ones directly in the head and showed that they pretty consisten
tly
indicated CHT's about 70=C2=B0 cooler than actual temperatures! If this is
the
case, Jab operators could be cooking their engines while thinking that the
ir
CHT's were within safe limits. He ended up designing a cooling baffling
system that is nothing like what comes from the factory and claimed that w
as
the only way he was able to get the CHT's under control.
>
> I wonder what the rest of you Jabiru 3300 operators have to say about
this? I'm not flying mine yet but will be getting ready to hang it soon.
>
> For a summary on the fellow who made the presentation check out
http://www.eaaapps.org/presenterinfo.aspx?id=1973
>
> Tim
>
> --------
> ______________
> CFII
> Champ L16A flying
> Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
> Wing modifications done - back working on the fuselage
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406639#406639
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity |
I did attend that forum. This man spent a great deal of time creating a
solution that is looking for a problem to solve. He had a Jabiru J series
aircraft which are not hard to cool. Very early cowls on that aircraft did
not cool the best but there was an easily fix that Jabiru put out in a
service bulletin. My company has built about 125 of these aircraft and I
can say without hesitation that cooling is not much of an issue.
As far as putting the sensor some other place that indicated by Jabiru -
we've tested a few. Under a head bolt on the exhaust side of the head
produces a reading that is about 20 degrees cooler than under the plug. If
you create a new scale with lower maximum limits and operate your engine to
those cooler indications I don't see much of a problem.
The gentleman at the forum however was promoting a probe location in the 3mm
hole that is drilled into the head between the spark plugs. I have found
this location to be unpredictable and unreliable. We had some bayonet
probes made that matched the hole diameter and flew for more than 50 hours
with a probe under the plug and another down the hole on the same head. We
did not find that temps were consistently higher indications down the hole.
Sometimes they were lower and sometimes higher. We could easily make the
temps "down the hole" rise quickly to very high levels while the indications
under the plug began to cool. Other times indications under the plug were
hotter than "down the hole". We decided that there was not enough
consistency to recommend operators employ that method.
We then tried a small ring terminal probe fastened to the hole with w small
self tapping screw. We got basically the same result with the being
variation from under the plug being less. Still not predictable to use.
The Jabiru fleet now numbers some 2500 planes. Fleet hours must be
somewhere between 1/2 to 1 million flight hours. Enough that is had been
proven that the under the plug probe location and the limits published by
Jabiru will predictably keep the heads from suffering heat damage. We can't
say that for the "down the hole" location.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Juhl
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 1:14 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity
--> <timjuhl@frontier.com>
Also posted in Zenith 601 section
I attended a forum at Oshkosh where a fellow discussed his research on
cooling a Jabiru 3300. He had compared the spark plug washer type CHT
sensors to ones directly in the head and showed that they pretty
consistently indicated CHT's about 70 cooler than actual temperatures! If
this is the case, Jab operators could be cooking their engines while
thinking that their CHT's were within safe limits. He ended up designing a
cooling baffling system that is nothing like what comes from the factory and
claimed that was the only way he was able to get the CHT's under control.
I wonder what the rest of you Jabiru 3300 operators have to say about this?
I'm not flying mine yet but will be getting ready to hang it soon.
For a summary on the fellow who made the presentation check out
http://www.eaaapps.org/presenterinfo.aspx?id=1973
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Wing modifications done - back working on the fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406639#406639
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity |
Wow, what great information! I'm glad I made this post. Thanks to all for responding.
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Wing modifications done - back working on the fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406658#406658
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 Modifications? |
Hi Tim=0A=0AThere were certainly some problems with the early 4 cyl engines
mainly by having too lean jets and needle, I would certainly check yours.
The other thing with the early Hydraulic engines is they used the solid lif
ter cam and when the revised lifters came out the cam was also changed. Sin
ce then Piston to barrel clearance has been increased and ring groove clear
ance increased, also ring type has changed. If you do any mods to your engi
ne it is worth changing the nuts on the through bolts to the new ones, they
are so much easier to work with. Just another thought is to make sure you
keep the cylinders well oiled while it is in storage.=0Aall the best with y
our project=0ARegards Keith=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________
=0A From: Tim Juhl <timjuhl@frontier.com>=0ATo: jabiruengine-list@matronics
..com =0ASent: Wednesday, 14 August 2013 6:25 AM=0ASubject: JabiruEngine-Lis
t: Jabiru 3300 Modifications?=0A =0A=0A--> JabiruEngine-List message posted
by: "Tim Juhl" <timjuhl@frontier.com>=0A=0AI have an early hydraulic lifte
r 3300, still in the plastic, which I hope to install on my Zenith 601 soon
..- I understand that a few changes have been made since mine was built an
d wonder- whether I need to consider incorporating any of those changes p
rior to hanging the engine. I discussed it briefly with Pete Krotje at Oshk
osh, who suggested that barring evidence to the contrary, I needn't do anyt
hing at this time.- The two major items were:=0A=0AThru-bolts:- They ar
e now using longer bolts with special nuts.- Pete said that the bolt prob
lem was pretty much restricted to a small number of flight school 4-cylinde
r Jabs and to his knowledge, had not been a problem with the 3300.- Has t
hat been your experience?=0AHydraulic Lifters:- The early lifters would s
ometimes hold the valves open a bit longer, evidenced by cooking some of th
e oil visible under the valve covers.- Has anyone observed this problem a
nd been able to cure it by changing the lifters?=0A=0AAny other recommendat
ions are always welcome.=0A=0ATim=0A=0A--------=0A______________=0ACFII=0AC
hamp L16A flying=0AZodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A=0AWing modifications done - bac
k working on the fuselage=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ah
ttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406641#406641=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
====================
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity |
Guys:
Am I reading this correctly - The Ring / under the sparkplug read LOWER in
CHT than the probes that are screwed into the cylinder??? If so, that does
NOT sound correctly at all.
Two examples:
1 - On Lycoming or Continental engines the Ring/under the plug thermocouple
always reads HIGHER than screwed in or bayonet probes.
2 - The heat range of a plug affects the reading of the Ring/under the plug
thermocouple... YES, it will also affect the standard reading CHT but the
Ring type raises the CHT greatly - As ANY changes to the seating of the
plug to the head will.
I can't comment on the baffling, so I won't.
Barry
PS
Once again GOOGLE changed things without my permission.
*Barry*
*=93Chop=92d Liver=94*
*"The reason Benjamin Franklin was such a great inventor was everything lay
before him. The reason why we don't have great inventors today is,
everyone is trying to reinvent the wheel"*
On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 2:35 PM, David McCormick <jabfox@hotmail.com> wrote
:
> I was there also, that guy was trying to reinvent the wheel
>
> > Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity
> > From: timjuhl@frontier.com
> > Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 11:14:04 -0700
> > To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
>
> >
> timjuhl@frontier.com>
> >
> > Also posted in Zenith 601 section
> >
> > I attended a forum at Oshkosh where a fellow discussed his research on
> cooling a Jabiru 3300. He had compared the spark plug washer type CHT
> sensors to ones directly in the head and showed that they pretty
> consistently indicated CHT's about 70=C2=B0 cooler than actual temperatur
es! If
> this is the case, Jab operators could be cooking their engines while
> thinking that their CHT's were within safe limits. He ended up designing
a
> cooling baffling system that is nothing like what comes from the factory
> and claimed that was the only way he was able to get the CHT's under
> control.
>
> >
> > I wonder what the rest of you Jabiru 3300 operators have to say about
> this? I'm not flying mine yet but will be getting ready to hang it soon.
> >
> > For a summary on the fellow who made the presentation check out
> http://www.eaaapps.org/presenterinfo.aspx?id=1973
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > --------
> > ______________
> > CFII
> > Champ L16A flying
> > Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
> > Wing modifications done - back working on the fuselage
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406639#406639
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > **>
> >
> >
>
> *
>
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