---------------------------------------------------------- JabiruEngine-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/13/13: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 11:14 AM - Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity (Tim Juhl) 2. 11:25 AM - Jabiru 3300 Modifications? (Tim Juhl) 3. 11:36 AM - Re: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity (David McCormick) 4. 11:45 AM - Re: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity (Nick Otterback) 5. 12:20 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity (JohnDRead@aol.com) 6. 01:28 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity (Pete Krotje) 7. 03:48 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity (Tim Juhl) 8. 05:15 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 Modifications? (Keith Pickford) 9. 05:56 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity (FLYaDIVE) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 11:14:38 AM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity From: "Tim Juhl" Also posted in Zenith 601 section I attended a forum at Oshkosh where a fellow discussed his research on cooling a Jabiru 3300. He had compared the spark plug washer type CHT sensors to ones directly in the head and showed that they pretty consistently indicated CHT's about 70 cooler than actual temperatures! If this is the case, Jab operators could be cooking their engines while thinking that their CHT's were within safe limits. He ended up designing a cooling baffling system that is nothing like what comes from the factory and claimed that was the only way he was able to get the CHT's under control. I wonder what the rest of you Jabiru 3300 operators have to say about this? I'm not flying mine yet but will be getting ready to hang it soon. For a summary on the fellow who made the presentation check out http://www.eaaapps.org/presenterinfo.aspx?id=1973 Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Wing modifications done - back working on the fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406639#406639 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:25:39 AM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 Modifications? From: "Tim Juhl" I have an early hydraulic lifter 3300, still in the plastic, which I hope to install on my Zenith 601 soon. I understand that a few changes have been made since mine was built and wonder whether I need to consider incorporating any of those changes prior to hanging the engine. I discussed it briefly with Pete Krotje at Oshkosh, who suggested that barring evidence to the contrary, I needn't do anything at this time. The two major items were: Thru-bolts: They are now using longer bolts with special nuts. Pete said that the bolt problem was pretty much restricted to a small number of flight school 4-cylinder Jabs and to his knowledge, had not been a problem with the 3300. Has that been your experience? Hydraulic Lifters: The early lifters would sometimes hold the valves open a bit longer, evidenced by cooking some of the oil visible under the valve covers. Has anyone observed this problem and been able to cure it by changing the lifters? Any other recommendations are always welcome. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Wing modifications done - back working on the fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406641#406641 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:36:12 AM PST US From: David McCormick Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity I was there also=2C that guy was trying to reinvent the wheel > Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity > From: timjuhl@frontier.com > Date: Tue=2C 13 Aug 2013 11:14:04 -0700 > To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com > > > > Also posted in Zenith 601 section > > I attended a forum at Oshkosh where a fellow discussed his research on co oling a Jabiru 3300. He had compared the spark plug washer type CHT sensors to ones directly in the head and showed that they pretty consistently indi cated CHT's about 70=C2=B0 cooler than actual temperatures! If this is the case=2C Jab operators could be cooking their engines while thinking that th eir CHT's were within safe limits. He ended up designing a cooling baffling system that is nothing like what comes from the factory and claimed that w as the only way he was able to get the CHT's under control. > > I wonder what the rest of you Jabiru 3300 operators have to say about thi s? I'm not flying mine yet but will be getting ready to hang it soon. > > For a summary on the fellow who made the presentation check out http://ww w.eaaapps.org/presenterinfo.aspx?id=1973 > > Tim > > -------- > ______________ > CFII > Champ L16A flying > Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A > Wing modifications done - back working on the fuselage > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406639#406639 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:45:11 AM PST US From: "Nick Otterback" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity >From what I understand jabirus CHT limits are based on the CHT probe being under the spark plug. Regardless of what is going on else where in the head, this is where their testing comes from. I would put the CHT probe under the exhaust spark plug as noted in the installation manual, and use the limits set by jabiru. We have been flying the 3300 in the Lightning design now since early 2006 and never have "cooked" and engine while operating inside the limitation set forth by jabiru. We have over 130 aircraft flying with this engine and the stock jabiru provided baffle system all over the world with no issues. Nick Otterback Arion Aircraft LLC R&D Technical Support 931-680-1781 nick@flylightning.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Juhl Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 1:14 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity --> Also posted in Zenith 601 section I attended a forum at Oshkosh where a fellow discussed his research on cooling a Jabiru 3300. He had compared the spark plug washer type CHT sensors to ones directly in the head and showed that they pretty consistently indicated CHT's about 70 cooler than actual temperatures! If this is the case, Jab operators could be cooking their engines while thinking that their CHT's were within safe limits. He ended up designing a cooling baffling system that is nothing like what comes from the factory and claimed that was the only way he was able to get the CHT's under control. I wonder what the rest of you Jabiru 3300 operators have to say about this? I'm not flying mine yet but will be getting ready to hang it soon. For a summary on the fellow who made the presentation check out http://www.eaaapps.org/presenterinfo.aspx?id=1973 Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Wing modifications done - back working on the fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406639#406639 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:20:53 PM PST US From: JohnDRead@aol.com Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity I was there also. I was very skeptical too about his opinions. I too would use the baffling as provided from Jabiru USA and work from there. Regards, John CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300 Cell: 719-494-4567 Home: 303-648-3261 In a message dated 8/13/2013 12:36:20 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jabfox@hotmail.com writes: I was there also, that guy was trying to reinvent the wheel > Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity > From: timjuhl@frontier.com > Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 11:14:04 -0700 > To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com > > --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" > > Also posted in Zenith 601 section > > I attended a forum at Oshkosh where a fellow discussed his research on cooling a Jabiru 3300. He had compared the spark plug washer type CHT sensors to ones directly in the head and showed that they pretty consisten tly indicated CHT's about 70=C2=B0 cooler than actual temperatures! If this is the case, Jab operators could be cooking their engines while thinking that the ir CHT's were within safe limits. He ended up designing a cooling baffling system that is nothing like what comes from the factory and claimed that w as the only way he was able to get the CHT's under control. > > I wonder what the rest of you Jabiru 3300 operators have to say about this? I'm not flying mine yet but will be getting ready to hang it soon. > > For a summary on the fellow who made the presentation check out http://www.eaaapps.org/presenterinfo.aspx?id=1973 > > Tim > > -------- > ______________ > CFII > Champ L16A flying > Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A > Wing modifications done - back working on the fuselage > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406639#406639 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:28:16 PM PST US From: "Pete Krotje" Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity I did attend that forum. This man spent a great deal of time creating a solution that is looking for a problem to solve. He had a Jabiru J series aircraft which are not hard to cool. Very early cowls on that aircraft did not cool the best but there was an easily fix that Jabiru put out in a service bulletin. My company has built about 125 of these aircraft and I can say without hesitation that cooling is not much of an issue. As far as putting the sensor some other place that indicated by Jabiru - we've tested a few. Under a head bolt on the exhaust side of the head produces a reading that is about 20 degrees cooler than under the plug. If you create a new scale with lower maximum limits and operate your engine to those cooler indications I don't see much of a problem. The gentleman at the forum however was promoting a probe location in the 3mm hole that is drilled into the head between the spark plugs. I have found this location to be unpredictable and unreliable. We had some bayonet probes made that matched the hole diameter and flew for more than 50 hours with a probe under the plug and another down the hole on the same head. We did not find that temps were consistently higher indications down the hole. Sometimes they were lower and sometimes higher. We could easily make the temps "down the hole" rise quickly to very high levels while the indications under the plug began to cool. Other times indications under the plug were hotter than "down the hole". We decided that there was not enough consistency to recommend operators employ that method. We then tried a small ring terminal probe fastened to the hole with w small self tapping screw. We got basically the same result with the being variation from under the plug being less. Still not predictable to use. The Jabiru fleet now numbers some 2500 planes. Fleet hours must be somewhere between 1/2 to 1 million flight hours. Enough that is had been proven that the under the plug probe location and the limits published by Jabiru will predictably keep the heads from suffering heat damage. We can't say that for the "down the hole" location. Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Juhl Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 1:14 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity --> Also posted in Zenith 601 section I attended a forum at Oshkosh where a fellow discussed his research on cooling a Jabiru 3300. He had compared the spark plug washer type CHT sensors to ones directly in the head and showed that they pretty consistently indicated CHT's about 70 cooler than actual temperatures! If this is the case, Jab operators could be cooking their engines while thinking that their CHT's were within safe limits. He ended up designing a cooling baffling system that is nothing like what comes from the factory and claimed that was the only way he was able to get the CHT's under control. I wonder what the rest of you Jabiru 3300 operators have to say about this? I'm not flying mine yet but will be getting ready to hang it soon. For a summary on the fellow who made the presentation check out http://www.eaaapps.org/presenterinfo.aspx?id=1973 Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Wing modifications done - back working on the fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406639#406639 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:48:18 PM PST US Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity From: "Tim Juhl" Wow, what great information! I'm glad I made this post. Thanks to all for responding. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Wing modifications done - back working on the fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406658#406658 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:15:15 PM PST US From: Keith Pickford Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 Modifications? Hi Tim=0A=0AThere were certainly some problems with the early 4 cyl engines mainly by having too lean jets and needle, I would certainly check yours. The other thing with the early Hydraulic engines is they used the solid lif ter cam and when the revised lifters came out the cam was also changed. Sin ce then Piston to barrel clearance has been increased and ring groove clear ance increased, also ring type has changed. If you do any mods to your engi ne it is worth changing the nuts on the through bolts to the new ones, they are so much easier to work with. Just another thought is to make sure you keep the cylinders well oiled while it is in storage.=0Aall the best with y our project=0ARegards Keith=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________ =0A From: Tim Juhl =0ATo: jabiruengine-list@matronics ..com =0ASent: Wednesday, 14 August 2013 6:25 AM=0ASubject: JabiruEngine-Lis t: Jabiru 3300 Modifications?=0A =0A=0A--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" =0A=0AI have an early hydraulic lifte r 3300, still in the plastic, which I hope to install on my Zenith 601 soon ..- I understand that a few changes have been made since mine was built an d wonder- whether I need to consider incorporating any of those changes p rior to hanging the engine. I discussed it briefly with Pete Krotje at Oshk osh, who suggested that barring evidence to the contrary, I needn't do anyt hing at this time.- The two major items were:=0A=0AThru-bolts:- They ar e now using longer bolts with special nuts.- Pete said that the bolt prob lem was pretty much restricted to a small number of flight school 4-cylinde r Jabs and to his knowledge, had not been a problem with the 3300.- Has t hat been your experience?=0AHydraulic Lifters:- The early lifters would s ometimes hold the valves open a bit longer, evidenced by cooking some of th e oil visible under the valve covers.- Has anyone observed this problem a nd been able to cure it by changing the lifters?=0A=0AAny other recommendat ions are always welcome.=0A=0ATim=0A=0A--------=0A______________=0ACFII=0AC hamp L16A flying=0AZodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A=0AWing modifications done - bac k working on the fuselage=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ah ttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406641#406641=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ==================== ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity From: FLYaDIVE Guys: Am I reading this correctly - The Ring / under the sparkplug read LOWER in CHT than the probes that are screwed into the cylinder??? If so, that does NOT sound correctly at all. Two examples: 1 - On Lycoming or Continental engines the Ring/under the plug thermocouple always reads HIGHER than screwed in or bayonet probes. 2 - The heat range of a plug affects the reading of the Ring/under the plug thermocouple... YES, it will also affect the standard reading CHT but the Ring type raises the CHT greatly - As ANY changes to the seating of the plug to the head will. I can't comment on the baffling, so I won't. Barry PS Once again GOOGLE changed things without my permission. *Barry* *=93Chop=92d Liver=94* *"The reason Benjamin Franklin was such a great inventor was everything lay before him. The reason why we don't have great inventors today is, everyone is trying to reinvent the wheel"* On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 2:35 PM, David McCormick wrote : > I was there also, that guy was trying to reinvent the wheel > > > Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 CHT Disparity > > From: timjuhl@frontier.com > > Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 11:14:04 -0700 > > To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com > > > > timjuhl@frontier.com> > > > > Also posted in Zenith 601 section > > > > I attended a forum at Oshkosh where a fellow discussed his research on > cooling a Jabiru 3300. He had compared the spark plug washer type CHT > sensors to ones directly in the head and showed that they pretty > consistently indicated CHT's about 70=C2=B0 cooler than actual temperatur es! If > this is the case, Jab operators could be cooking their engines while > thinking that their CHT's were within safe limits. He ended up designing a > cooling baffling system that is nothing like what comes from the factory > and claimed that was the only way he was able to get the CHT's under > control. > > > > > I wonder what the rest of you Jabiru 3300 operators have to say about > this? I'm not flying mine yet but will be getting ready to hang it soon. > > > > For a summary on the fellow who made the presentation check out > http://www.eaaapps.org/presenterinfo.aspx?id=1973 > > > > Tim > > > > -------- > > ______________ > > CFII > > Champ L16A flying > > Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A > > Wing modifications done - back working on the fuselage > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406639#406639 > > > > > > > > > > > > **> > > > > > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message jabiruengine-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/JabiruEngine-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/jabiruengine-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/jabiruengine-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.