Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:13 AM - 2009 List of Contributors (Matt Dralle)
2. 10:45 AM - Re: Vortex Generators (Randy Ott)
3. 12:23 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (F. Tim Yoder)
4. 02:30 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Randy Ott)
5. 02:41 PM - Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 ()
6. 02:44 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Kent Pyle)
7. 03:32 PM - Re: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 (Galin Hernandez)
8. 06:12 PM - Re: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 (F. Tim Yoder)
9. 06:22 PM - Re: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 (Flyinisfun@aol.com)
10. 06:32 PM - Re: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 (Galin Hernandez)
11. 06:32 PM - Re: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 (Galin Hernandez)
Message 1
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| Subject: | 2009 List of Contributors |
Dear Listers,
The 2009 Matronics Email List and Forum Fund Raiser officially ended a couple of
weeks ago and its time that I publish this year's List of Contributors. Its
the people on this list that directly make the Email Lists and Forums possible.
Their generous
contributions keep the servers and Internet connection up and running.
You can still show your support this year and pick up a great gift at the same
time. The Contribution Web Site is fast, easy, and secure:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
I also want to thank Bob, Jon, Andy, and John for their generous support through
the supply of great gifts this year!! These guys have some great products and
I encourage you to visit their respective web sites:
Bob Nucklolls - AeroElectric - www.aeroelectric.com
Jon Croke - HomebuiltHELP - www.homebuilthelp.com
Andy Gold - The Builder's Bookstore - www.buildersbooks.com
John Caldwell - HowToCrimp - www.howtocrimp.com
And finally, I'm proud to present The 2009 Fund Raiser List of Contributors:
http://www.matronics.com/loc/2009.html
Thanks again to everyone that made a Contribution this year!!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
I put the vortex generators on my Tr-1.
Big big difference! Wow , I now have elavator authority at slow
speeds.
I was only able to do 4 touch and goes because of fog moving in, but I
was able to land and stop in tthe first 1000 feet of runway for
The first time ever! I placed the leading edge of the generator 4
inches forward of the elevator gap. I have
The O320 engine configuration. More testing to come... Initial
results are fantastic!
Randy
N96BT. Tr1
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 16, 2009, at 3:40 PM, "Kent Pyle" <kentpyle@iland.net> wrote:
> Jessie, not being an aeronautical engineer, I can not say for sure,
> however, I think they would work just fine for your two place. The
> four inch placement may or may not be the correct spacing. Read the
> instruction and they should tell you the correct placement. The
> bottom of the surface is the correct placement. Kent
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Flyinisfun@aol.com
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:44 PM
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
>
> This is Jesse Wright and have been reading the results of V.T.
> generators on the elevator stab. underneath. This has been one of
> my problems in a flair. The elevator is so soft that I loose where
> I am at with it and over control because I can's feel anything. Has
> anyone tried them on the 2 place and would they be installed about
> the same location, about 4 inches forward of the hinge line?
>
> Jesse
>
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref=
> "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
Randy,
Do you have the original elevator size or did you build in the aprox 1"
cord extension?
I have the extension and have plenty of elevator authority. On slow
speed landings I run out of aileron control with a cross wind,
but still have plenty of elevator.
If I didn't have the extension I think I would try the Vortex Generators
before rebuilding the elevator.
I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a little power on short
final, to kill a high sink rate.
Tim
N52TY TR-1
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Ott
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
I put the vortex generators on my Tr-1.
Big big difference! Wow , I now have elavator authority at slow
speeds.
I was only able to do 4 touch and goes because of fog moving in, but I
was able to land and stop in tthe first 1000 feet of runway for
The first time ever! I placed the leading edge of the generator 4
inches forward of the elevator gap. I have
The O320 engine configuration. More testing to come... Initial
results are fantastic!
Randy
N96BT. Tr1
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 16, 2009, at 3:40 PM, "Kent Pyle" <kentpyle@iland.net> wrote:
Jessie, not being an aeronautical engineer, I can not say for sure,
however, I think they would work just fine for your two place. The four
inch placement may or may not be the correct spacing. Read the
instruction and they should tell you the correct placement. The bottom
of the surface is the correct placement. Kent
----- Original Message -----
From: Flyinisfun@aol.com
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
This is Jesse Wright and have been reading the results of V.T.
generators on the elevator stab. underneath. This has been one of my
problems in a flair. The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at
with it and over control because I can's feel anything. Has anyone
tried them on the 2 place and would they be installed about the same
location, about 4 inches forward of the hinge line?
Jesse
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?KIS-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
Yes I have the original elevator!
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 21, 2009, at 12:19 PM, "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>
wrote:
> Randy,
>
> Do you have the original elevator size or did you build in the aprox
> 1" cord extension?
>
> I have the extension and have plenty of elevator authority. On slow
> speed landings I run out of aileron control with a cross wind,
>
> but still have plenty of elevator.
>
> If I didn't have the extension I think I would try the Vortex
> Generators before rebuilding the elevator.
>
> I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a little power on
> short final, to kill a high sink rate.
>
> Tim
> N52TY TR-1
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Randy Ott
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:44 AM
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
>
> I put the vortex generators on my Tr-1.
> Big big difference! Wow , I now have elavator authority at slow
> speeds.
> I was only able to do 4 touch and goes because of fog moving in, but
> I was able to land and stop in tthe first 1000 feet of runway for
> The first time ever! I placed the leading edge of the generator 4
> inches forward of the elevator gap. I have
> The O320 engine configuration. More testing to come... Initial
> results are fantastic!
> Randy
> N96BT. Tr1
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 16, 2009, at 3:40 PM, "Kent Pyle" <kentpyle@iland.net> wrote:
>
>> Jessie, not being an aeronautical engineer, I can not say for sure,
>> however, I think they would work just fine for your two place. The
>> four inch placement may or may not be the correct spacing. Read
>> the instruction and they should tell you the correct placement.
>> The bottom of the surface is the correct placement. Kent
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Flyinisfun@aol.com
>> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
>>
>> This is Jesse Wright and have been reading the results of V.T.
>> generators on the elevator stab. underneath. This has been one of
>> my problems in a flair. The elevator is so soft that I loose where
>> I am at with it and over control because I can's feel anything.
>> Has anyone tried them on the 2 place and would they be installed
>> about the same location, about 4 inches forward of the hinge line?
>>
>> Jesse
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
>> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
>> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref=
>> "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.howtocrimp.com">www.howtocrimp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref=
> "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 |
12/21/2009
Hello Fellow KIS TR-1 Pilots,
A) Tim Yoder wrote: "I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a
little power on short final, to kill a high sink rate."
Back in the day when I was still flying rental Cessna 172's and Diamond
DA-20 C1's my normal landing approach was to use idle engine power from the
abeam position until touch down. The normal variable technique to compensate
for misjudgement of position or wind was when to put the flaps down and how
much. In those (rare) cases when flap manipulation was insufficent to do the
job I would resort to adding engine power or slipping the airplane depending
upon what was needed.
Using idle engine power all the way to touch down just did not work for the
KIS TR-1. I learned that I could not consistently flare the plane as needed
with idle engine power even though I had extended the trailing edge of the
elevator about an inch.
What is needed to consistently flare the KIS TR-1 is consistent high energy
air flow over the elevator -- even an extended elevator. Three of the ways
that could be used to get more consistent higher energy air flow over the
elevator are:
1) Julian Bone's modification of the wing to fuselage fairing.
2) Vortex generators installed on the elevator.
3) Carrying a bit of engine power during the landing flare.
Each of these methods has it pluses and minuses and each works in a
different manner to accomplish the desired goal. In some cases maybe a
combination of the methods may be needed or desired.
One of the minuses on using engine power is that the pilot has to make a
judgement for every landing how much power above idle to carry. Not enough
power can result in a sudden undesirable pitch change, usually nose down.
Too much power can result in more float than wanted while in ground effect.
B) Jesse wrote: "The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at with it
and over control because I can's feel anything."
I ask again Jesse, What kind of engine RPM are you using during the landing
flare?
I hope that discussion of this issue will bring each KIS TR-1 pilot to a
better understanding of his airplane and confidence in his ability to land
it safely and consistently.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
==================================================
----- Original Message -----
From: "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
Randy,
Do you have the original elevator size or did you build in the aprox 1" cord
extension?
I have the extension and have plenty of elevator authority. On slow speed
landings I run out of aileron control with a cross wind,
but still have plenty of elevator.
If I didn't have the extension I think I would try the Vortex Generators
before rebuilding the elevator.
I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a little power on short
final, to kill a high sink rate.
Tim
N52TY TR-1
==============================================
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Ott
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
I put the vortex generators on my Tr-1.
Big big difference! Wow , I now have elavator authority at slow speeds.
I was only able to do 4 touch and goes because of fog moving in, but I was
able to land and stop in tthe first 1000 feet of runway for
The first time ever! I placed the leading edge of the generator 4 inches
forward of the elevator gap. I have
The O320 engine configuration. More testing to come... Initial results
are fantastic!
Randy
N96BT. Tr1
============================================================
On Dec 16, 2009, at 3:40 PM, "Kent Pyle" <kentpyle@iland.net> wrote:
Jessie, not being an aeronautical engineer, I can not say for sure,
however, I think they would work just fine for your two place. The four
inch placement may or may not be the correct spacing. Read the instruction
and they should tell you the correct placement. The bottom of the surface
is the correct placement. Kent
===================================================
----- Original Message -----
From: Flyinisfun@aol.com
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
This is Jesse Wright and have been reading the results of V.T.
generators on the elevator stab. underneath. This has been one of my
problems in a flair. The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at
with it and over control because I can's feel anything. Has anyone tried
them on the 2 place and would they be installed about the same location,
about 4 inches forward of the hinge line?
Jesse
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
Randy, good news! I thought this was simpler than adding to the
elevator cord. Kent
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Ott
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
I put the vortex generators on my Tr-1.
Big big difference! Wow , I now have elavator authority at slow
speeds.
I was only able to do 4 touch and goes because of fog moving in, but I
was able to land and stop in tthe first 1000 feet of runway for
The first time ever! I placed the leading edge of the generator 4
inches forward of the elevator gap. I have
The O320 engine configuration. More testing to come... Initial
results are fantastic!
Randy
N96BT. Tr1
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 16, 2009, at 3:40 PM, "Kent Pyle" <kentpyle@iland.net> wrote:
Jessie, not being an aeronautical engineer, I can not say for sure,
however, I think they would work just fine for your two place. The four
inch placement may or may not be the correct spacing. Read the
instruction and they should tell you the correct placement. The bottom
of the surface is the correct placement. Kent
----- Original Message -----
From: Flyinisfun@aol.com
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
This is Jesse Wright and have been reading the results of V.T.
generators on the elevator stab. underneath. This has been one of my
problems in a flair. The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at
with it and over control because I can's feel anything. Has anyone
tried them on the 2 place and would they be installed about the same
location, about 4 inches forward of the hinge line?
Jesse
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?KIS-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 |
All of these methods will work. However, I have a "personal" issue of using
a little bit of power in order to make the landings where I want it. When
(note I said when not if) you loose your engine, you may not have the
proficiency required to land it where you need to.
I try to make every landing without engine power to stay proficient in this
region of the flight envelope. Adding engine power would only be as a fine
adjustment (less than 50ft) to my intended the landing point.
Just my 2 cents.
Galin
N819PR
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 4:38 PM, <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
>
> 12/21/2009
>
> Hello Fellow KIS TR-1 Pilots,
>
> A) Tim Yoder wrote: "I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a
> little power on short final, to kill a high sink rate."
>
> Back in the day when I was still flying rental Cessna 172's and Diamond
> DA-20 C1's my normal landing approach was to use idle engine power from the
> abeam position until touch down. The normal variable technique to compensate
> for misjudgement of position or wind was when to put the flaps down and how
> much. In those (rare) cases when flap manipulation was insufficent to do the
> job I would resort to adding engine power or slipping the airplane depending
> upon what was needed.
>
> Using idle engine power all the way to touch down just did not work for the
> KIS TR-1. I learned that I could not consistently flare the plane as needed
> with idle engine power even though I had extended the trailing edge of the
> elevator about an inch.
>
> What is needed to consistently flare the KIS TR-1 is consistent high energy
> air flow over the elevator -- even an extended elevator. Three of the ways
> that could be used to get more consistent higher energy air flow over the
> elevator are:
>
> 1) Julian Bone's modification of the wing to fuselage fairing.
>
> 2) Vortex generators installed on the elevator.
>
> 3) Carrying a bit of engine power during the landing flare.
>
> Each of these methods has it pluses and minuses and each works in a
> different manner to accomplish the desired goal. In some cases maybe a
> combination of the methods may be needed or desired.
>
> One of the minuses on using engine power is that the pilot has to make a
> judgement for every landing how much power above idle to carry. Not enough
> power can result in a sudden undesirable pitch change, usually nose down.
> Too much power can result in more float than wanted while in ground effect.
>
> B) Jesse wrote: "The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at with it
> and over control because I can's feel anything."
>
> I ask again Jesse, What kind of engine RPM are you using during the landing
> flare?
>
> I hope that discussion of this issue will bring each KIS TR-1 pilot to a
> better understanding of his airplane and confidence in his ability to land
> it safely and consistently.
>
> 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
> understand knowledge."
>
> ==================================================
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>
> To: <kis-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 3:19 PM
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
>
>
> Randy,
>
> Do you have the original elevator size or did you build in the aprox 1"
> cord extension?
>
> I have the extension and have plenty of elevator authority. On slow speed
> landings I run out of aileron control with a cross wind,
>
> but still have plenty of elevator.
>
> If I didn't have the extension I think I would try the Vortex Generators
> before rebuilding the elevator.
>
> I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a little power on short
> final, to kill a high sink rate.
>
> Tim
> N52TY TR-1
>
> ==============================================
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Randy Ott
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:44 AM
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
>
> I put the vortex generators on my Tr-1.
> Big big difference! Wow , I now have elavator authority at slow speeds.
> I was only able to do 4 touch and goes because of fog moving in, but I was
> able to land and stop in tthe first 1000 feet of runway for
> The first time ever! I placed the leading edge of the generator 4 inches
> forward of the elevator gap. I have
> The O320 engine configuration. More testing to come... Initial results
> are fantastic!
> Randy
> N96BT. Tr1
>
> ============================================================
>
> On Dec 16, 2009, at 3:40 PM, "Kent Pyle" <kentpyle@iland.net> wrote:
>
>
> Jessie, not being an aeronautical engineer, I can not say for sure,
> however, I think they would work just fine for your two place. The four
> inch placement may or may not be the correct spacing. Read the instruction
> and they should tell you the correct placement. The bottom of the surface
> is the correct placement. Kent
>
> ===================================================
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: Flyinisfun@aol.com
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:44 PM
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
>
>
> This is Jesse Wright and have been reading the results of V.T.
> generators on the elevator stab. underneath. This has been one of my
> problems in a flair. The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at
> with it and over control because I can's feel anything. Has anyone tried
> them on the 2 place and would they be installed about the same location,
> about 4 inches forward of the hinge line?
>
> Jesse
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 |
Hello Galin,
I agree and I would guess the 50 ft is about the usual limit.
Also, I have not flown the 4 place and don't know if its slow flight
landing characteristics are substantially different than the TR-1. Also,
I have noted that their are many differences in most of the TR-1's,
engines, empty weights, typical landing weights, the fact that no two
airframes were assembled just alike, not to mention the different pilot
abilities.
I bet 'OC', with his vast experience, could land my TR-1 as good as his
own and I bet I could land his just as poorly as I do mine. No I
wouldn't try!
Maybe you could get Rich to give us his wisdom on this topic. Have you
flown Rich's TR-1?
Some of you may have flown both, any thoughts?
When I learned to fly, uncontrolled field - Cessna 150, it was always
power off and touch down with full flaps.
Now I fly out of a Class D, two runways and two large flight schools.
Traffic patterns are almost cross countries.
About the only way to get a power off approach is to have an engine
fail, and declare an emergency!
Tim
N52TY TR-1
----- Original Message -----
From: Galin Hernandez
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1
All of these methods will work. However, I have a "personal" issue of
using a little bit of power in order to make the landings where I want
it. When (note I said when not if) you loose your engine, you may not
have the proficiency required to land it where you need to.
I try to make every landing without engine power to stay proficient in
this region of the flight envelope. Adding engine power would only be as
a fine adjustment (less than 50ft) to my intended the landing point.
Just my 2 cents.
Galin
N819PR
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 4:38 PM, <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
12/21/2009
Hello Fellow KIS TR-1 Pilots,
A) Tim Yoder wrote: "I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding
a little power on short final, to kill a high sink rate."
Back in the day when I was still flying rental Cessna 172's and
Diamond DA-20 C1's my normal landing approach was to use idle engine
power from the abeam position until touch down. The normal variable
technique to compensate for misjudgement of position or wind was when to
put the flaps down and how much. In those (rare) cases when flap
manipulation was insufficent to do the job I would resort to adding
engine power or slipping the airplane depending upon what was needed.
Using idle engine power all the way to touch down just did not work
for the KIS TR-1. I learned that I could not consistently flare the
plane as needed with idle engine power even though I had extended the
trailing edge of the elevator about an inch.
What is needed to consistently flare the KIS TR-1 is consistent high
energy air flow over the elevator -- even an extended elevator. Three of
the ways that could be used to get more consistent higher energy air
flow over the elevator are:
1) Julian Bone's modification of the wing to fuselage fairing.
2) Vortex generators installed on the elevator.
3) Carrying a bit of engine power during the landing flare.
Each of these methods has it pluses and minuses and each works in a
different manner to accomplish the desired goal. In some cases maybe a
combination of the methods may be needed or desired.
One of the minuses on using engine power is that the pilot has to
make a judgement for every landing how much power above idle to carry.
Not enough power can result in a sudden undesirable pitch change,
usually nose down. Too much power can result in more float than wanted
while in ground effect.
B) Jesse wrote: "The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at
with it and over control because I can's feel anything."
I ask again Jesse, What kind of engine RPM are you using during the
landing flare?
I hope that discussion of this issue will bring each KIS TR-1 pilot
to a better understanding of his airplane and confidence in his ability
to land it safely and consistently.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather
and understand knowledge."
----- Original Message ----- From: "F. Tim Yoder"
<ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>
To: <kis-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
Randy,
Do you have the original elevator size or did you build in the aprox
1" cord extension?
I have the extension and have plenty of elevator authority. On slow
speed landings I run out of aileron control with a cross wind,
but still have plenty of elevator.
If I didn't have the extension I think I would try the Vortex
Generators before rebuilding the elevator.
I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a little power on
short final, to kill a high sink rate.
Tim
N52TY TR-1
=====================
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Ott
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
I put the vortex generators on my Tr-1.
Big big difference! Wow , I now have elavator authority at slow
speeds.
I was only able to do 4 touch and goes because of fog moving in,
but I was able to land and stop in tthe first 1000 feet of runway for
The first time ever! I placed the leading edge of the generator 4
inches forward of the elevator gap. I have
The O320 engine configuration. More testing to come... Initial
results are fantastic!
Randy
N96BT. Tr1
==========
On Dec 16, 2009, at 3:40 PM, "Kent Pyle" <kentpyle@iland.net>
wrote:
Jessie, not being an aeronautical engineer, I can not say for
sure, however, I think they would work just fine for your two place.
The four inch placement may or may not be the correct spacing. Read the
instruction and they should tell you the correct placement. The bottom
of the surface is the correct placement. Kent
=
----- Original Message ----- From: Flyinisfun@aol.com
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
This is Jesse Wright and have been reading the results of V.T.
generators on the elevator stab. underneath. This has been one of my
problems in a flair. The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at
with it and over control because I can's feel anything. Has anyone
tried them on the 2 place and would they be installed about the same
location, about 4 inches forward of the hinge line?
Jesse
==========
="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
"_blank">www.howtocrimp.com
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
le, List Admin.
==========
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==========
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==========
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 |
Hi OC,
I'm sorry I didn't answer you before now, got side tracked. You asked how
much power (RPM) I was carrying on landing. Since I put the plane back in
the air, about 3 hrs ago and about 4 landings I have been carrying about
900 RPM down final and letting it settle in. I am still landing on a two
mile runway but am always in the 1st mile to complete stop. I bleed the power
off when I see I'm in the slot and about 50 ft. high. By what I see
concerning the VG I think I'm going to try that and see what happens. Rich
wanted to see my weights and balance sheet of which I'm got to find in my
files. As soon as I can I will send it on but it may be after New Years as I
have family coming in. I got the transponder replaced and it is working
great. Just need more flying, What's your comment on my numbers OC.
Thanks,
Jesse
All of these methods will work. However, I have a "personal" issue of using
a little bit of power in order to make the landings where I want it. When
(note I said when not if) you loose your engine, you may not have the
proficiency required to land it where you need to.
I try to make every landing without engine power to stay proficient in
this region of the flight envelope. Adding engine power would only be as a
fine adjustment (less than 50ft) to my intended the landing point.
Just my 2 cents.
Galin
N819PR
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 4:38 PM, <_bakerocb@cox.net_
(mailto:bakerocb@cox.net) > wrote:
--> KIS-List message posted by: <_bakerocb@cox.net_
(mailto:bakerocb@cox.net) >
12/21/2009
Hello Fellow KIS TR-1 Pilots,
A) Tim Yoder wrote: "I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a
little power on short final, to kill a high sink rate."
Back in the day when I was still flying rental Cessna 172's and Diamond
DA-20 C1's my normal landing approach was to use idle engine power from the
abeam position until touch down. The normal variable technique to compensate
for misjudgement of position or wind was when to put the flaps down and
how much. In those (rare) cases when flap manipulation was insufficent to do
the job I would resort to adding engine power or slipping the airplane
depending upon what was needed.
Using idle engine power all the way to touch down just did not work for
the KIS TR-1. I learned that I could not consistently flare the plane as
needed with idle engine power even though I had extended the trailing edge of
the elevator about an inch.
What is needed to consistently flare the KIS TR-1 is consistent high
energy air flow over the elevator -- even an extended elevator. Three of the
ways that could be used to get more consistent higher energy air flow over the
elevator are:
1) Julian Bone's modification of the wing to fuselage fairing.
2) Vortex generators installed on the elevator.
3) Carrying a bit of engine power during the landing flare.
Each of these methods has it pluses and minuses and each works in a
different manner to accomplish the desired goal. In some cases maybe a
combination of the methods may be needed or desired.
One of the minuses on using engine power is that the pilot has to make a
judgement for every landing how much power above idle to carry. Not enough
power can result in a sudden undesirable pitch change, usually nose down.
Too much power can result in more float than wanted while in ground effect.
B) Jesse wrote: "The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at with
it and over control because I can's feel anything."
I ask again Jesse, What kind of engine RPM are you using during the
landing flare?
I hope that discussion of this issue will bring each KIS TR-1 pilot to a
better understanding of his airplane and confidence in his ability to land
it safely and consistently.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
----- Original Message ----- From: "F. Tim Yoder"
<_ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com_ (mailto:ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com) >
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
Randy,
Do you have the original elevator size or did you build in the aprox 1"
cord extension?
I have the extension and have plenty of elevator authority. On slow speed
landings I run out of aileron control with a cross wind,
but still have plenty of elevator.
If I didn't have the extension I think I would try the Vortex Generators
before rebuilding the elevator.
I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a little power on short
final, to kill a high sink rate.
Tim
N52TY TR-1
=====================
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Ott
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
I put the vortex generators on my Tr-1.
Big big difference! Wow , I now have elavator authority at slow speeds.
I was only able to do 4 touch and goes because of fog moving in, but I was
able to land and stop in tthe first 1000 feet of runway for
The first time ever! I placed the leading edge of the generator 4 inches
forward of the elevator gap. I have
The O320 engine configuration. More testing to come... Initial results
are fantastic!
Randy
N96BT. Tr1
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 |
I have never flown a TR-1 so I can't say a word about it's characteristics.
But my TR-4 with the VG's on the elevator feels much more solid until
touchdown with the engine at idle than it ever did. An approach at 80KIAS
and actual touchdown at 65KIAS is significantly easier and more comfortable
now.
Galin
N819PR
PS: I loved our comment of "Traffic patterns are almost cross countries".
Sounds like flying here in El Salvador. ;o)
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 8:08 PM, F. Tim Yoder <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>wrote:
> Hello Galin,
>
> I agree and I would guess the 50 ft is about the usual limit.
>
> Also, I have not flown the 4 place and don't know if its slow flight
> landing characteristics are substantially different than the TR-1. Also, I
> have noted that their are many differences in most of the TR-1's, engines,
> empty weights, typical landing weights, the fact that no two airframes were
> assembled just alike, not to mention the different pilot abilities.
>
> I bet 'OC', with his vast experience, could land my TR-1 as good as his own
> and I bet I could land his just as poorly as I do mine. No I wouldn't try!
>
> Maybe you could get Rich to give us his wisdom on this topic. Have you
> flown Rich's TR-1?
>
> Some of you may have flown both, any thoughts?
>
> When I learned to fly, uncontrolled field - Cessna 150, it was always power
> off and touch down with full flaps.
>
> Now I fly out of a Class D, two runways and two large flight schools.
> Traffic patterns are almost cross countries.
>
> About the only way to get a power off approach is to have an engine fail,
> and declare an emergency!
>
> Tim
> N52TY TR-1
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com>
> *To:* kis-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Monday, December 21, 2009 4:31 PM
> *Subject:* Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1
>
> All of these methods will work. However, I have a "personal" issue of using
> a little bit of power in order to make the landings where I want it. When
> (note I said when not if) you loose your engine, you may not have the
> proficiency required to land it where you need to.
>
> I try to make every landing without engine power to stay proficient in this
> region of the flight envelope. Adding engine power would only be as a fine
> adjustment (less than 50ft) to my intended the landing point.
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> Galin
> N819PR
>
> On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 4:38 PM, <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> 12/21/2009
>>
>> Hello Fellow KIS TR-1 Pilots,
>>
>> A) Tim Yoder wrote: "I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a
>> little power on short final, to kill a high sink rate."
>>
>> Back in the day when I was still flying rental Cessna 172's and Diamond
>> DA-20 C1's my normal landing approach was to use idle engine power from the
>> abeam position until touch down. The normal variable technique to compensate
>> for misjudgement of position or wind was when to put the flaps down and how
>> much. In those (rare) cases when flap manipulation was insufficent to do the
>> job I would resort to adding engine power or slipping the airplane depending
>> upon what was needed.
>>
>> Using idle engine power all the way to touch down just did not work for
>> the KIS TR-1. I learned that I could not consistently flare the plane as
>> needed with idle engine power even though I had extended the trailing edge
>> of the elevator about an inch.
>>
>> What is needed to consistently flare the KIS TR-1 is consistent high
>> energy air flow over the elevator -- even an extended elevator. Three of the
>> ways that could be used to get more consistent higher energy air flow over
>> the elevator are:
>>
>> 1) Julian Bone's modification of the wing to fuselage fairing.
>>
>> 2) Vortex generators installed on the elevator.
>>
>> 3) Carrying a bit of engine power during the landing flare.
>>
>> Each of these methods has it pluses and minuses and each works in a
>> different manner to accomplish the desired goal. In some cases maybe a
>> combination of the methods may be needed or desired.
>>
>> One of the minuses on using engine power is that the pilot has to make a
>> judgement for every landing how much power above idle to carry. Not enough
>> power can result in a sudden undesirable pitch change, usually nose down.
>> Too much power can result in more float than wanted while in ground effect.
>>
>> B) Jesse wrote: "The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at with
>> it and over control because I can's feel anything."
>>
>> I ask again Jesse, What kind of engine RPM are you using during the
>> landing flare?
>>
>> I hope that discussion of this issue will bring each KIS TR-1 pilot to a
>> better understanding of his airplane and confidence in his ability to land
>> it safely and consistently.
>>
>> 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
>> understand knowledge."
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com
>> >
>> To: <kis-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 3:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
>>
>>
>> Randy,
>>
>> Do you have the original elevator size or did you build in the aprox 1"
>> cord extension?
>>
>> I have the extension and have plenty of elevator authority. On slow speed
>> landings I run out of aileron control with a cross wind,
>>
>> but still have plenty of elevator.
>>
>> If I didn't have the extension I think I would try the Vortex Generators
>> before rebuilding the elevator.
>>
>> I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a little power on short
>> final, to kill a high sink rate.
>>
>> Tim
>> N52TY TR-1
>>
>> =====================
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Randy Ott
>> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:44 AM
>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
>>
>> I put the vortex generators on my Tr-1.
>> Big big difference! Wow , I now have elavator authority at slow
>> speeds.
>> I was only able to do 4 touch and goes because of fog moving in, but I
>> was able to land and stop in tthe first 1000 feet of runway for
>> The first time ever! I placed the leading edge of the generator 4 inches
>> forward of the elevator gap. I have
>> The O320 engine configuration. More testing to come... Initial results
>> are fantastic!
>> Randy
>> N96BT. Tr1
>>
>> ==========
>>
>> On Dec 16, 2009, at 3:40 PM, "Kent Pyle" <kentpyle@iland.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Jessie, not being an aeronautical engineer, I can not say for sure,
>> however, I think they would work just fine for your two place. The four
>> inch placement may or may not be the correct spacing. Read the instruction
>> and they should tell you the correct placement. The bottom of the surface
>> is the correct placement. Kent
>>
>> =
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: Flyinisfun@aol.com
>> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
>>
>>
>> This is Jesse Wright and have been reading the results of V.T.
>> generators on the elevator stab. underneath. This has been one of my
>> problems in a flair. The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at
>> with it and over control because I can's feel anything. Has anyone tried
>> them on the 2 place and would they be installed about the same location,
>> about 4 inches forward of the hinge line?
>>
>> Jesse
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>> ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>> et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>> "_blank">www.howtocrimp.com
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> le, List Admin.
>> ==========
>> rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.howtocrimp.com">www.howtocrimp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> *
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>
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>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 |
PS: I always land power off and full flaps unless the POH states different.
This gives me the slowest airspeed/groundspeed for touchdown. One of the few
times excess speed is NOT a good thing. Vne is the other time. ;o)
Galin
N819PR
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 8:08 PM, F. Tim Yoder <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>wrote:
> Hello Galin,
>
> I agree and I would guess the 50 ft is about the usual limit.
>
> Also, I have not flown the 4 place and don't know if its slow flight
> landing characteristics are substantially different than the TR-1. Also, I
> have noted that their are many differences in most of the TR-1's, engines,
> empty weights, typical landing weights, the fact that no two airframes were
> assembled just alike, not to mention the different pilot abilities.
>
> I bet 'OC', with his vast experience, could land my TR-1 as good as his own
> and I bet I could land his just as poorly as I do mine. No I wouldn't try!
>
> Maybe you could get Rich to give us his wisdom on this topic. Have you
> flown Rich's TR-1?
>
> Some of you may have flown both, any thoughts?
>
> When I learned to fly, uncontrolled field - Cessna 150, it was always power
> off and touch down with full flaps.
>
> Now I fly out of a Class D, two runways and two large flight schools.
> Traffic patterns are almost cross countries.
>
> About the only way to get a power off approach is to have an engine fail,
> and declare an emergency!
>
> Tim
> N52TY TR-1
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com>
> *To:* kis-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Monday, December 21, 2009 4:31 PM
> *Subject:* Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1
>
> All of these methods will work. However, I have a "personal" issue of using
> a little bit of power in order to make the landings where I want it. When
> (note I said when not if) you loose your engine, you may not have the
> proficiency required to land it where you need to.
>
> I try to make every landing without engine power to stay proficient in this
> region of the flight envelope. Adding engine power would only be as a fine
> adjustment (less than 50ft) to my intended the landing point.
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> Galin
> N819PR
>
> On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 4:38 PM, <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> 12/21/2009
>>
>> Hello Fellow KIS TR-1 Pilots,
>>
>> A) Tim Yoder wrote: "I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a
>> little power on short final, to kill a high sink rate."
>>
>> Back in the day when I was still flying rental Cessna 172's and Diamond
>> DA-20 C1's my normal landing approach was to use idle engine power from the
>> abeam position until touch down. The normal variable technique to compensate
>> for misjudgement of position or wind was when to put the flaps down and how
>> much. In those (rare) cases when flap manipulation was insufficent to do the
>> job I would resort to adding engine power or slipping the airplane depending
>> upon what was needed.
>>
>> Using idle engine power all the way to touch down just did not work for
>> the KIS TR-1. I learned that I could not consistently flare the plane as
>> needed with idle engine power even though I had extended the trailing edge
>> of the elevator about an inch.
>>
>> What is needed to consistently flare the KIS TR-1 is consistent high
>> energy air flow over the elevator -- even an extended elevator. Three of the
>> ways that could be used to get more consistent higher energy air flow over
>> the elevator are:
>>
>> 1) Julian Bone's modification of the wing to fuselage fairing.
>>
>> 2) Vortex generators installed on the elevator.
>>
>> 3) Carrying a bit of engine power during the landing flare.
>>
>> Each of these methods has it pluses and minuses and each works in a
>> different manner to accomplish the desired goal. In some cases maybe a
>> combination of the methods may be needed or desired.
>>
>> One of the minuses on using engine power is that the pilot has to make a
>> judgement for every landing how much power above idle to carry. Not enough
>> power can result in a sudden undesirable pitch change, usually nose down.
>> Too much power can result in more float than wanted while in ground effect.
>>
>> B) Jesse wrote: "The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at with
>> it and over control because I can's feel anything."
>>
>> I ask again Jesse, What kind of engine RPM are you using during the
>> landing flare?
>>
>> I hope that discussion of this issue will bring each KIS TR-1 pilot to a
>> better understanding of his airplane and confidence in his ability to land
>> it safely and consistently.
>>
>> 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
>> understand knowledge."
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com
>> >
>> To: <kis-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 3:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
>>
>>
>> Randy,
>>
>> Do you have the original elevator size or did you build in the aprox 1"
>> cord extension?
>>
>> I have the extension and have plenty of elevator authority. On slow speed
>> landings I run out of aileron control with a cross wind,
>>
>> but still have plenty of elevator.
>>
>> If I didn't have the extension I think I would try the Vortex Generators
>> before rebuilding the elevator.
>>
>> I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a little power on short
>> final, to kill a high sink rate.
>>
>> Tim
>> N52TY TR-1
>>
>> =====================
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Randy Ott
>> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:44 AM
>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
>>
>> I put the vortex generators on my Tr-1.
>> Big big difference! Wow , I now have elavator authority at slow
>> speeds.
>> I was only able to do 4 touch and goes because of fog moving in, but I
>> was able to land and stop in tthe first 1000 feet of runway for
>> The first time ever! I placed the leading edge of the generator 4 inches
>> forward of the elevator gap. I have
>> The O320 engine configuration. More testing to come... Initial results
>> are fantastic!
>> Randy
>> N96BT. Tr1
>>
>> ==========
>>
>> On Dec 16, 2009, at 3:40 PM, "Kent Pyle" <kentpyle@iland.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Jessie, not being an aeronautical engineer, I can not say for sure,
>> however, I think they would work just fine for your two place. The four
>> inch placement may or may not be the correct spacing. Read the instruction
>> and they should tell you the correct placement. The bottom of the surface
>> is the correct placement. Kent
>>
>> =
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: Flyinisfun@aol.com
>> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
>>
>>
>> This is Jesse Wright and have been reading the results of V.T.
>> generators on the elevator stab. underneath. This has been one of my
>> problems in a flair. The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at
>> with it and over control because I can's feel anything. Has anyone tried
>> them on the 2 place and would they be installed about the same location,
>> about 4 inches forward of the hinge line?
>>
>> Jesse
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>> ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>> et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>> "_blank">www.howtocrimp.com
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> le, List Admin.
>> ==========
>> rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
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> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
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> *
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