---------------------------------------------------------- KIS-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/22/09: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:54 AM - Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 () 2. 07:33 AM - Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 () 3. 10:34 AM - Re: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 (Kent Pyle) 4. 04:54 PM - Re:my landings (Richard Trickel) 5. 09:17 PM - Re: Re:my landings (F. Tim Yoder) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:42 AM PST US From: Subject: KIS-List: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 12/22/2009 Hello Galin, You wrote: "I try to make every landing without engine power to stay proficient in this region of the flight envelope." I am glad that you raised this issue. If the airplane and the landing pattern will permit it this is also my preferred landing technique in a general aviation airplane. It provides the bonus of frequent practice engine out landings. However there are some airplanes where trying to make every approach and landing to touchdown without engine power is not feasible -- I believe the original design KIS TR-1 is one of them. Here is why: In addition to the three methods that I mentioned earlier for keeping higher energy air flowing consistently over the KIS TR-1 elevator there is a fourth method -- that is to make a faster approach and flare. But to avoid a possible sudden nose pitch down and harsh touch down one must ensure that the flare is not done too high. This requires getting into ground effect with that excess airspeed and results in a significant float down the runway. So here is how I try to make normal landings in the KIS TR-1. I fly downwind at 1,000 feet AGL, at 90 KIAS (Knots Indicated Air Speed), this takes about 1,800 engine RPM, until abeam the touch down point. Then I bring the engine back to idle RPM (which is between 850 and 950 RPM) and hold altitude until the airspeed slows to 80 KIAS when I lower one notch of flaps and start a descent. During this descent, based on my judgement I turn base, lower full flaps, turn to final, and slow to 75 KIAS. Some where on final after slowing to 75 KIAS I increase the engine RPM to around 1,050 and leave it there until I ease the power back to idle RPM after touchdown or just a few inches above touchdown. I recognize that this technique will probably not get me to the runway if I experience an engine failure on final and I consider this an acceptable risk. I also recognize that I need some engine out landing practice so here is my technique for that: Somewhere in the vicinity of the intended landing field I bring the engine RPM back to idle and slow to 80 KIAS. I maneuver the airplane and lower flaps as needed in increments in an attempt to bring me to a flare point still at 80 KIAS. If I am skillfull enough (this comes with practice) I can float along close enough to the surface in ground effect to permit an acceptable touchdown airspeed without a sudden nose down pitch movement. My thinking is that in an actual off airport forced landing I would rather impact what ever is at the far end of the selected field at a slow speed than stall in at the near end of the field by making my approach airspeed too slow or flaring too high. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ===================================================== All of these methods will work. However, I have a "personal" issue of using a little bit of power in order to make the landings where I want it. When (note I said when not if) you loose your engine, you may not have the proficiency required to land it where you need to. I try to make every landing without engine power to stay proficient in this region of the flight envelope. Adding engine power would only be as a fine adjustment (less than 50ft) to my intended the landing point. Just my 2 cents. Galin N819PR ============================================================ On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 4:38 PM, wrote: > 12/21/2009 > > Hello Fellow KIS TR-1 Pilots, > > A) Tim Yoder wrote: "I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a > little power on short final, to kill a high sink rate." > > Back in the day when I was still flying rental Cessna 172's and Diamond > DA-20 C1's my normal landing approach was to use idle engine power from > the > abeam position until touch down. The normal variable technique to > compensate > for misjudgement of position or wind was when to put the flaps down and > how > much. In those (rare) cases when flap manipulation was insufficent to do > the > job I would resort to adding engine power or slipping the airplane > depending > upon what was needed. > > Using idle engine power all the way to touch down just did not work for > the > KIS TR-1. I learned that I could not consistently flare the plane as > needed > with idle engine power even though I had extended the trailing edge of the > elevator about an inch. > > What is needed to consistently flare the KIS TR-1 is consistent high > energy > air flow over the elevator -- even an extended elevator. Three of the ways > that could be used to get more consistent higher energy air flow over the > elevator are: > > 1) Julian Bone's modification of the wing to fuselage fairing. > > 2) Vortex generators installed on the elevator. > > 3) Carrying a bit of engine power during the landing flare. > > Each of these methods has it pluses and minuses and each works in a > different manner to accomplish the desired goal. In some cases maybe a > combination of the methods may be needed or desired. > > One of the minuses on using engine power is that the pilot has to make a > judgement for every landing how much power above idle to carry. Not enough > power can result in a sudden undesirable pitch change, usually nose down. > Too much power can result in more float than wanted while in ground > effect. > > B) Jesse wrote: "The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at with > it > and over control because I can's feel anything." > > I ask again Jesse, What kind of engine RPM are you using during the > landing > flare? > > I hope that discussion of this issue will bring each KIS TR-1 pilot to a > better understanding of his airplane and confidence in his ability to land > it safely and consistently. > > 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and > understand knowledge." ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:43 AM PST US From: Subject: KIS-List: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 12/22/2009 Hello Jesse, You wrote: 1) "What's your comment on my numbers OC." and "......I have been carrying about 900 RPM down final and letting it settle in." What is your engine idle RPM at 500 feet per minute rate of descent with full flaps? I feel that you need to carry some engine RPM above idle during the flare and down to within inches of touchdown or after touchdown. Just how much RPM above idle is determined through experience with your airplane and it can vary with airplane weight and field density altitude. 2) "I bleed the power off when I see I'm in the slot and about 50 ft. high." This can be a real gotcha and lead to a sudden nose pitch down and a harsh touchdown as a result of loss of high energy air flowing over the elevator. In order to manage a good touchdown you need to be extremely skilled with both throttle and stick movement to start pulling back engine power that high in the air. My technique (see my separate response to Galin) is to set some small engine power setting above idle prior to the flare and not reduce power until after touchdown or just a few inches before touchdown. Realize that ground effect is considered to start at about one half of the airplane's wing span. Since the wing span of the KIS TR-1 is about 23 feet you are not in ground effect until the wing is about 12 feet above the surface. 3) "Just need more flying,......" Don't we all. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ================================================= ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 9:14 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 > Hi OC, > I'm sorry I didn't answer you before now, got side tracked. You asked > how > much power (RPM) I was carrying on landing. Since I put the plane back > in > the air, about 3 hrs ago and about 4 landings I have been carrying about > 900 RPM down final and letting it settle in. I am still landing on a two > mile runway but am always in the 1st mile to complete stop. I bleed the > power > off when I see I'm in the slot and about 50 ft. high. By what I see > concerning the VG I think I'm going to try that and see what happens. > Rich > wanted to see my weights and balance sheet of which I'm got to find in my > files. As soon as I can I will send it on but it may be after New Years > as I > have family coming in. I got the transponder replaced and it is working > great. Just need more flying, What's your comment on my numbers OC. > > Thanks, > Jesse ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:34:20 AM PST US From: "Kent Pyle" Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 Galin, Same story here. Kent ----- Original Message ----- From: Galin Hernandez To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 8:25 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 I have never flown a TR-1 so I can't say a word about it's characteristics. But my TR-4 with the VG's on the elevator feels much more solid until touchdown with the engine at idle than it ever did. An approach at 80KIAS and actual touchdown at 65KIAS is significantly easier and more comfortable now. Galin N819PR PS: I loved our comment of "Traffic patterns are almost cross countries". Sounds like flying here in El Salvador. ;o) On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 8:08 PM, F. Tim Yoder wrote: Hello Galin, I agree and I would guess the 50 ft is about the usual limit. Also, I have not flown the 4 place and don't know if its slow flight landing characteristics are substantially different than the TR-1. Also, I have noted that their are many differences in most of the TR-1's, engines, empty weights, typical landing weights, the fact that no two airframes were assembled just alike, not to mention the different pilot abilities. I bet 'OC', with his vast experience, could land my TR-1 as good as his own and I bet I could land his just as poorly as I do mine. No I wouldn't try! Maybe you could get Rich to give us his wisdom on this topic. Have you flown Rich's TR-1? Some of you may have flown both, any thoughts? When I learned to fly, uncontrolled field - Cessna 150, it was always power off and touch down with full flaps. Now I fly out of a Class D, two runways and two large flight schools. Traffic patterns are almost cross countries. About the only way to get a power off approach is to have an engine fail, and declare an emergency! Tim N52TY TR-1 ----- Original Message ----- From: Galin Hernandez To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 4:31 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 All of these methods will work. However, I have a "personal" issue of using a little bit of power in order to make the landings where I want it. When (note I said when not if) you loose your engine, you may not have the proficiency required to land it where you need to. I try to make every landing without engine power to stay proficient in this region of the flight envelope. Adding engine power would only be as a fine adjustment (less than 50ft) to my intended the landing point. Just my 2 cents. Galin N819PR On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 4:38 PM, wrote: 12/21/2009 Hello Fellow KIS TR-1 Pilots, A) Tim Yoder wrote: "I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a little power on short final, to kill a high sink rate." Back in the day when I was still flying rental Cessna 172's and Diamond DA-20 C1's my normal landing approach was to use idle engine power from the abeam position until touch down. The normal variable technique to compensate for misjudgement of position or wind was when to put the flaps down and how much. In those (rare) cases when flap manipulation was insufficent to do the job I would resort to adding engine power or slipping the airplane depending upon what was needed. Using idle engine power all the way to touch down just did not work for the KIS TR-1. I learned that I could not consistently flare the plane as needed with idle engine power even though I had extended the trailing edge of the elevator about an inch. What is needed to consistently flare the KIS TR-1 is consistent high energy air flow over the elevator -- even an extended elevator. Three of the ways that could be used to get more consistent higher energy air flow over the elevator are: 1) Julian Bone's modification of the wing to fuselage fairing. 2) Vortex generators installed on the elevator. 3) Carrying a bit of engine power during the landing flare. Each of these methods has it pluses and minuses and each works in a different manner to accomplish the desired goal. In some cases maybe a combination of the methods may be needed or desired. One of the minuses on using engine power is that the pilot has to make a judgement for every landing how much power above idle to carry. Not enough power can result in a sudden undesirable pitch change, usually nose down. Too much power can result in more float than wanted while in ground effect. B) Jesse wrote: "The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at with it and over control because I can's feel anything." I ask again Jesse, What kind of engine RPM are you using during the landing flare? I hope that discussion of this issue will bring each KIS TR-1 pilot to a better understanding of his airplane and confidence in his ability to land it safely and consistently. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ----- Original Message ----- From: "F. Tim Yoder" To: Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 3:19 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators Randy, Do you have the original elevator size or did you build in the aprox 1" cord extension? I have the extension and have plenty of elevator authority. On slow speed landings I run out of aileron control with a cross wind, but still have plenty of elevator. If I didn't have the extension I think I would try the Vortex Generators before rebuilding the elevator. I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a little power on short final, to kill a high sink rate. Tim N52TY TR-1 ===================== ----- Original Message ----- From: Randy Ott To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:44 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators I put the vortex generators on my Tr-1. Big big difference! Wow , I now have elavator authority at slow speeds. I was only able to do 4 touch and goes because of fog moving in, but I was able to land and stop in tthe first 1000 feet of runway for The first time ever! I placed the leading edge of the generator 4 inches forward of the elevator gap. I have The O320 engine configuration. More testing to come... Initial results are fantastic! Randy N96BT. Tr1 ========== On Dec 16, 2009, at 3:40 PM, "Kent Pyle" wrote: Jessie, not being an aeronautical engineer, I can not say for sure, however, I think they would work just fine for your two place. The four inch placement may or may not be the correct spacing. Read the instruction and they should tell you the correct placement. The bottom of the surface is the correct placement. Kent = ----- Original Message ----- From: Flyinisfun@aol.com To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:44 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators This is Jesse Wright and have been reading the results of V.T. generators on the elevator stab. underneath. This has been one of my problems in a flair. The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at with it and over control because I can's feel anything. Has anyone tried them on the 2 place and would they be installed about the same location, about 4 inches forward of the hinge line? Jesse ========== ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com "_blank">www.howtocrimp.com ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution le, List Admin. ========== rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.howtocrimp.com">www.howtocrimp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?KIS-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _blank">www.aeroelectric.com .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com nk">www.howtocrimp.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List tp://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:54:16 PM PST US From: Richard Trickel Subject: KIS-List: Re:my landings To all First of all I would like to wish all of you =A8Happy Holidays=A8 A new year is coming and maybe a lot of changes too. - Secondly, I tend to be old school and learned to land power off also.- As far as my kis is concerned- I also Landed it power off.- How is the my stery as it seem that every one else is using a little power.- I always f elt and was taught that your engine could fail anytime- and more so when you were making power adjustments.- Happened to me on the second flight o f the kis but not during power adjustment.- Fuel line problem.- That wa s a good landing too. I do have a tendency to leave a little extra speed on though and just bleed it off during the float to landing.- As many of you that had a chance to ride with me may remember I always made the first turnoff where i could fo r the demonstration.- I always tried to prove that the KIS could get in a nd out of 1500 feet no problem.- Our airports is close to sea level so th at helped.- If there is runway a few extra MPH cost you nothing and makes for a good landing every time.- Not all of mine were squeakers but never got a thumbs down either. Just had fun.- I think the succes to landing i s practice.- Try different approach speeds and flap configurations and sp eeds.- Rember where your stall speed is but don=A8t glues your eyes an th e airspeed indicator either.- Wher does your airplane feel good,- It ma y not be the same as mine but if the airpalne feels good at a certain speed you- may relax and enjoy the landing better.- So what if your are not at that magical listed speed.- Your indicater is probably off anyway.- No ne of them are really on point at all speeds. Flaps???- I always use them -First notch prior to turning base and second notch as needed.- Add pow er only when I was looking short and occasionally to soften the second boun ce.- Yes I did bounce a few and if you haven=B4t your probably lieing.- keep the nose up at landing.- This does two things. Keeps the wear a tea r off the nose wheel and gives you drag to slow the plane down. Now thats All I have to say about that. Rich --- On Mon, 12/21/09, F. Tim Yoder wrote: From: F. Tim Yoder Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 Hello Galin, - I agree and I would guess the 50 ft is about the usual limit. - Also, I have not flown the 4 place and don't know if its slow flight landin g characteristics are substantially different than the TR-1. Also, I have n oted that their are many differences in most of the TR-1's, engines, empty weights, typical landing weights, the fact that no two airframes were assem bled just alike, not to mention the different pilot abilities. - I bet 'OC', with his vast experience, could land my TR-1 as good as his own and I bet I could land his just as poorly as I do mine. No I wouldn't try! - Maybe you could get Rich to give us his wisdom on this topic. Have you flow n Rich's TR-1? Some of you may have flown both, any thoughts? - When I learned to fly, uncontrolled field - Cessna 150, it was always power off and touch down with full flaps. - Now I fly out of a Class D, two runways and two large flight schools. Traff ic patterns are almost cross countries. - About the only way to get a power off approach is to-have an engine fail, and declare an emergency! - Tim N52TY- TR-1- - - - ----- Original Message ----- From: Galin Hernandez Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 4:31 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 All of these methods will work. However, I have a "personal" issue of using a little bit of power in order to make the landings where I want it. When (note I said when not if) you loose your engine, you may not have the profi ciency required to land it where you need to. I try to make every landing without engine power to stay proficient in this region of the flight envelope. Adding engine power would only be as a fine adjustment (less than 50ft)- to my intended the landing point. Just my 2 cents. Galin N819PR On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 4:38 PM, wrote: 12/21/2009 Hello Fellow KIS TR-1 Pilots, A) Tim Yoder wrote: "I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a litt le power on short final, to kill a high sink rate." Back in the day when I was still flying rental Cessna 172's and Diamond DA- 20 C1's my normal landing approach was to use idle engine power from the ab eam position until touch down. The normal variable technique to compensate for misjudgement of position or wind was when to put the flaps down and how much. In those (rare) cases when flap manipulation was insufficent to do t he job I would resort to adding engine power or slipping the airplane depen ding upon what was needed. Using idle engine power all the way to touch down just did not work for the KIS TR-1. I learned that I could not consistently flare the plane as neede d with idle engine power even though I had extended the trailing edge of th e elevator about an inch. What is needed to consistently flare the KIS TR-1 is consistent high energy air flow over the elevator -- even an extended elevator. Three of the ways that could be used to get more consistent higher energy air flow over the elevator are: 1) Julian Bone's modification of the wing to fuselage fairing. 2) Vortex generators installed on the elevator. 3) Carrying a bit of engine power during the landing flare. Each of these methods has it pluses and minuses and each works in a differe nt manner to accomplish the desired goal. In some cases maybe a combination of the methods may be needed or desired. One of the minuses on using engine power is that the pilot has to make a ju dgement for every landing how much power above idle to carry. Not enough po wer can result in a sudden undesirable pitch change, usually nose down. Too much power can result in more float than wanted while in ground effect. B) Jesse wrote: "The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at with it and over control because I can's feel anything." I ask again Jesse, What kind of engine RPM are you using during the landing flare? I hope that discussion of this issue will bring each KIS TR-1 pilot to a be tter understanding of his airplane and confidence in his ability to land it safely and consistently. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and und erstand knowledge." ----- Original Message ----- From: "F. Tim Yoder" Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 3:19 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators Randy, Do you have the original elevator size or did you build in the aprox 1" cor d extension? I have the extension and have plenty of elevator authority. On slow speed l andings I run out of aileron control with a cross wind, but still have plenty of elevator. If I didn't have the extension I think I would try the Vortex Generators be fore rebuilding the elevator. I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a little power on short fin al, to kill a high sink rate. Tim N52TY -TR-1 ===================== ------ Original Message ----- -From: Randy Ott -To: kis-list@matronics.com -Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:44 AM -Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators -I put the vortex generators on my Tr-1. -Big big difference! -Wow , - I now have elavator authority at slow s peeds. -I was only able to do 4 touch and goes because of fog moving in, but I w as able to land and stop in tthe first 1000 feet of runway for -The first time ever! -I placed the leading edge of the generator 4 inc hes forward of the elevator gap. I have -The O320 engine configuration. -More testing to come... Initial result s are fantastic! -Randy -N96BT. Tr1 -On Dec 16, 2009, at 3:40 PM, "Kent Pyle" wrote: - Jessie, not being an aeronautical engineer, I can not say for sure, how ever, I think they would work just fine for your two place. -The four inc h placement may or may not be the correct spacing. -Read the instruction and they should tell you the correct placement. -The bottom of the surfac e is the correct placement. -Kent = - - ----- Original Message ----- - - From: Flyinisfun@aol.com - - To: kis-list@matronics.com - - Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:44 PM - - Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators - - This is Jesse Wright and have been reading the results of V.T. gene rators on the elevator stab. underneath. -This has been one of my problem s in a flair. -The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at with it and over control because I can's feel anything. -Has anyone tried them o n the 2 place and would they be installed about the same location, about 4 inches forward of the hinge line? - - - - - - - - - - - Jesse ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com "_blank">www.howtocrimp.com ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution le, List Admin. rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.howtocrimp.com">www.howtocrimp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chr ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?KIS-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:17:45 PM PST US From: "F. Tim Yoder" Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re:my landings Thanks for the report, it helps. Merry Christmas and have a happy new year! Hope the changes are all good. Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Trickel To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 5:08 PM Subject: KIS-List: Re:my landings To all First of all I would like to wish all of you =A8Happy Holidays=A8 A new year is coming and maybe a lot of changes too. Secondly, I tend to be old school and learned to land power off also. As far as my kis is concerned I also Landed it power off. How is the mystery as it seem that every one else is using a little power. I always felt and was taught that your engine could fail anytime and more so when you were making power adjustments. Happened to me on the second flight of the kis but not during power adjustment. Fuel line problem. That was a good landing too. I do have a tendency to leave a little extra speed on though and just bleed it off during the float to landing. As many of you that had a chance to ride with me may remember I always made the first turnoff where i could for the demonstration. I always tried to prove that the KIS could get in and out of 1500 feet no problem. Our airports is close to sea level so that helped. If there is runway a few extra MPH cost you nothing and makes for a good landing every time. Not all of mine were squeakers but never got a thumbs down either. Just had fun. I think the succes to landing is practice. Try different approach speeds and flap configurations and speeds. Rember where your stall speed is but don=A8t glues your eyes an the airspeed indicator either. Wher does your airplane feel good, It may not be the same as mine but if the airpalne feels good at a certain speed you may relax and enjoy the landing better. So what if your are not at that magical listed speed. Your indicater is probably off anyway. None of them are really on point at all speeds. Flaps??? I always use them First notch prior to turning base and second notch as needed. Add power only when I was looking short and occasionally to soften the second bounce. Yes I did bounce a few and if you haven=B4t your probably lieing. keep the nose up at landing. This does two things. Keeps the wear a tear off the nose wheel and gives you drag to slow the plane down. Now thats All I have to say about that. Rich --- On Mon, 12/21/09, F. Tim Yoder wrote: From: F. Tim Yoder Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 To: kis-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, December 21, 2009, 6:08 PM Hello Galin, I agree and I would guess the 50 ft is about the usual limit. Also, I have not flown the 4 place and don't know if its slow flight landing characteristics are substantially different than the TR-1. Also, I have noted that their are many differences in most of the TR-1's, engines, empty weights, typical landing weights, the fact that no two airframes were assembled just alike, not to mention the different pilot abilities. I bet 'OC', with his vast experience, could land my TR-1 as good as his own and I bet I could land his just as poorly as I do mine. No I wouldn't try! Maybe you could get Rich to give us his wisdom on this topic. Have you flown Rich's TR-1? Some of you may have flown both, any thoughts? When I learned to fly, uncontrolled field - Cessna 150, it was always power off and touch down with full flaps. Now I fly out of a Class D, two runways and two large flight schools. Traffic patterns are almost cross countries. About the only way to get a power off approach is to have an engine fail, and declare an emergency! Tim N52TY TR-1 ----- Original Message ----- From: Galin Hernandez To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 4:31 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators or Landing the KIS TR-1 All of these methods will work. However, I have a "personal" issue of using a little bit of power in order to make the landings where I want it. When (note I said when not if) you loose your engine, you may not have the proficiency required to land it where you need to. I try to make every landing without engine power to stay proficient in this region of the flight envelope. Adding engine power would only be as a fine adjustment (less than 50ft) to my intended the landing point. Just my 2 cents. Galin N819PR On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 4:38 PM, wrote: 12/21/2009 Hello Fellow KIS TR-1 Pilots, A) Tim Yoder wrote: "I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a little power on short final, to kill a high sink rate." Back in the day when I was still flying rental Cessna 172's and Diamond DA-20 C1's my normal landing approach was to use idle engine power from the abeam position until touch down. The normal variable technique to compensate for misjudgement of position or wind was when to put the flaps down and how much. In those (rare) cases when flap manipulation was insufficent to do the job I would resort to adding engine power or slipping the airplane depending upon what was needed. Using idle engine power all the way to touch down just did not work for the KIS TR-1. I learned that I could not consistently flare the plane as needed with idle engine power even though I had extended the trailing edge of the elevator about an inch. What is needed to consistently flare the KIS TR-1 is consistent high energy air flow over the elevator -- even an extended elevator. Three of the ways that could be used to get more consistent higher energy air flow over the elevator are: 1) Julian Bone's modification of the wing to fuselage fairing. 2) Vortex generators installed on the elevator. 3) Carrying a bit of engine power during the landing flare. Each of these methods has it pluses and minuses and each works in a different manner to accomplish the desired goal. In some cases maybe a combination of the methods may be needed or desired. One of the minuses on using engine power is that the pilot has to make a judgement for every landing how much power above idle to carry. Not enough power can result in a sudden undesirable pitch change, usually nose down. Too much power can result in more float than wanted while in ground effect. B) Jesse wrote: "The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at with it and over control because I can's feel anything." I ask again Jesse, What kind of engine RPM are you using during the landing flare? I hope that discussion of this issue will bring each KIS TR-1 pilot to a better understanding of his airplane and confidence in his ability to land it safely and consistently. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ----- Original Message ----- From: "F. Tim Yoder" To: Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 3:19 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators Randy, Do you have the original elevator size or did you build in the aprox 1" cord extension? I have the extension and have plenty of elevator authority. On slow speed landings I run out of aileron control with a cross wind, but still have plenty of elevator. If I didn't have the extension I think I would try the Vortex Generators before rebuilding the elevator. I also regularly use 'OC's' procedure of adding a little power on short final, to kill a high sink rate. Tim N52TY TR-1 ===================== ----- Original Message ----- From: Randy Ott To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:44 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators I put the vortex generators on my Tr-1. Big big difference! Wow , I now have elavator authority at slow speeds. I was only able to do 4 touch and goes because of fog moving in, but I was able to land and stop in tthe first 1000 feet of runway for The first time ever! I placed the leading edge of the generator 4 inches forward of the elevator gap. I have The O320 engine configuration. More testing to come... Initial results are fantastic! Randy N96BT. Tr1 ========== On Dec 16, 2009, at 3:40 PM, "Kent Pyle" wrote: Jessie, not being an aeronautical engineer, I can not say for sure, however, I think they would work just fine for your two place. The four inch placement may or may not be the correct spacing. Read the instruction and they should tell you the correct placement. The bottom of the surface is the correct placement. Kent = ----- Original Message ----- From: Flyinisfun@aol.com To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:44 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators This is Jesse Wright and have been reading the results of V.T. generators on the elevator stab. underneath. This has been one of my problems in a flair. The elevator is so soft that I loose where I am at with it and over control because I can's feel anything. Has anyone tried them on the 2 place and would they be installed about the same location, about 4 inches forward of the hinge line? 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