Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:23 AM - TR1 NG2 ()
2. 05:01 PM - Re: TR1 NG2 (Graham Brighton)
3. 05:07 PM - Re: Flight Manual ()
4. 06:40 PM - Re: Flight Manual (Robert Reed)
Message 1
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6/3/2010
Hello Ted, You wrote:
1) "I have stirred up enough trouble tonight."
{Response} No trouble at all -- your inputs have generated some very
valuable thinking about an existing and potential problem.
2) "The Elevator authority problem can be handled with higher approach speed
on a longer runway and/or increasing elevator size [with vortex
generators?]"
{Response} There are really two aspects to the problem of loss of / suddenly
reduced pitch authority in the KIS TR-1 landing flare. One is elevator
authority (as you write) and the other is the airflow burble generated by
intermittent airflow detachment in the pinched in area of the wing to
fuselage fairing.
The elevator authority situation can be approached (as you write) with
either extending the elevator trailing edge or several small vortex
generators installed on the bottom of the trailing edge of the horizontal
stabilizer.
The airflow detachment situation can be approached by either building and
installing larger wing to fuselage fairings as Julian Bone did or installing
a vortex generator on both sides of the fuselage just forward of the wing
leading edge as Cirrus -- and some RV-8 builders -- have done with their
later models. This would create some higher energy air in that pinched in
area.
I am playing around with imitations of the Cirrus approach -- see the
attached picture of a temporarily attached vortex generator. I think that in
order to refine / validate this fuselage installed vortex generator approach
one would have to install video cameras and do some airflow testing with
yarn tufts. That is a bit beyond my motivation.
3) "The trigger point for starting this bloody exercise was noting the
Healthy nose gear leg on the new RV12[Light Sport]advertisement pictures."
{Response} Good eye and good thinking. I think that one would have a better
chance of obtaining a new nose landing gear strut assembly from Van's than
from Diamond, Cirrus, or any of the other manufacturers of that type of nose
gear strut. A salvage yard may also be a source for such a nose gear strut.
The most difficult aspect of replacing the nose landing gear strut may be in
trying to exactly match the firewall attachment arrangement so that one does
not have to do extensive modifications to the firewall in that area.
4) "Use a wood prop."
{Response} A wood prop, rather than a metal prop,would certainly lessen the
impact on an engine when it contacted an object while the engine was
running. But the engine manufactures' instructions on required teardown and
inspection when a prop strike is encountered would not let one off the hook
just because the prop was wood rather than metal.
'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and
understand knowledge."
=====================================================
Time: 09:52:18 AM PST US
From: tmclam@comcast.net
Subject: KIS-List: TR1 NG2
Hi OC and others
I threw this firecracker out there because i suddenly realized how much
and how fast KIS lifetime has passed with one of the two problems still
hanging out there.[Some of us will probably go West sooner then later
taking some valuable KIS thoughts with them.]
The Elevator authority problem can be handled with higher approach speed
on a longer runway and/or increasing elevator size [with vortex
generators?]
The Nose Gear weakness is a continuous black cloud overhead because it
can lead to a financial disaster.A collapse and a damaged metal Prop
automatically requires engine removal and Tear Down.The total proper
repair cost cold easily exceed sensible limits and result in scrapping the
airplane.Use a wood prop.
The trigger point for starting this bloody exercise was noting the
Healthy nose gear leg on the new RV12[Light Sport]advertisement pictures.
I have stirred up enough trouble tonight.
Ted
Message 2
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G'Day back Larry,
Re Repairs ...Well have my new leg from Bob
here ok ..its a bit beefier than the original .. in that it is longer in
cord ( funny way to describe a n/leg strut ..but its the airfoil section !)
It doesn't have the doubling that the original one had so i will add
doubling before i go ahead and fit it ...
As to the rear spar wing mounting point repair ... haven't really started
with that but have pretty much thought out that i'll replace the alloy
mounting block is there ...with a longer one that will extend along further
to behind the flap hinge ..so that it acts as a reinforcing doubler .. in
combo with some glassing too ..
Engine wise ...well took the engine back to the Engine Builders ...who
can't find a reason for the inlet valve to have bocken off ...
The Oil Pressure drop was a result of the wire being loose on the seder unit
..the shop was messing with the sender unit earlier !!
What i'm left with is that its an engine head assembly error or just a
freak dodgy valve !?
Was thinking of using a turbo block (subaru) for a base of a new engine way
back ....
but a zero time NA complete engine came up and i went that way (big
mistake ) Read with interest ur article from Maxwell P... and have purchased
a 2.5 sti short block ..in standard turbo trim its 300 HP .... i'll be
running NA with 190-200 hp so it will be somewhat derated so i'm much
happier with that .. ( oh and i'm shopping for a Subaru junker car to use as
a test bed for dyno data recording etc ...)
Decided airframe is no place to be fitting an untried auto conversion hey
..especially with a short runway .. my empty weight 1020 lbs and standard
TR1 wing ... its not going to be a great off-field lander ...!!!!!
Scott's extra span and light weight should see a fantastic ( low) stall
speed ... promises to be a real special a/craft ...
For Now
Graham
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry David" <lgdavid@roadrunner.com>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 3:30 AM
Subject: Fw: KIS-List: TR1 NG2
> Hi Graham,
> I assume you saw this, but if you didn't here it is. I especially like to
> read OC's answers. He provides sound advice.
> How is the plane repair coming?
> Larry
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <bakerocb@cox.net>
> To: "KIS-LIST, MATRONICS" <kis-list@matronics.com>; <tmclam@comcast.net>
> Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 5:18 AM
> Subject: KIS-List: TR1 NG2
>
>
>> 6/3/2010
>>
>> Hello Ted, You wrote:
>>
>> 1) "I have stirred up enough trouble tonight."
>>
>> {Response} No trouble at all -- your inputs have generated some very
>> valuable thinking about an existing and potential problem.
>>
>> 2) "The Elevator authority problem can be handled with higher approach
>> speed
>> on a longer runway and/or increasing elevator size [with vortex
>> generators?]"
>>
>> {Response} There are really two aspects to the problem of loss of /
>> suddenly
>> reduced pitch authority in the KIS TR-1 landing flare. One is elevator
>> authority (as you write) and the other is the airflow burble generated by
>> intermittent airflow detachment in the pinched in area of the wing to
>> fuselage fairing.
>>
>> The elevator authority situation can be approached (as you write) with
>> either extending the elevator trailing edge or several small vortex
>> generators installed on the bottom of the trailing edge of the horizontal
>> stabilizer.
>>
>> The airflow detachment situation can be approached by either building and
>> installing larger wing to fuselage fairings as Julian Bone did or
>> installing
>> a vortex generator on both sides of the fuselage just forward of the wing
>> leading edge as Cirrus -- and some RV-8 builders -- have done with their
>> later models. This would create some higher energy air in that pinched in
>> area.
>>
>> I am playing around with imitations of the Cirrus approach -- see the
>> attached picture of a temporarily attached vortex generator. I think that
>> in
>> order to refine / validate this fuselage installed vortex generator
>> approach
>> one would have to install video cameras and do some airflow testing with
>> yarn tufts. That is a bit beyond my motivation.
>>
>> 3) "The trigger point for starting this bloody exercise was noting the
>> Healthy nose gear leg on the new RV12[Light Sport]advertisement
>> pictures."
>>
>> {Response} Good eye and good thinking. I think that one would have a
>> better
>> chance of obtaining a new nose landing gear strut assembly from Van's
>> than
>> from Diamond, Cirrus, or any of the other manufacturers of that type of
>> nose
>> gear strut. A salvage yard may also be a source for such a nose gear
>> strut.
>>
>> The most difficult aspect of replacing the nose landing gear strut may be
>> in
>> trying to exactly match the firewall attachment arrangement so that one
>> does
>> not have to do extensive modifications to the firewall in that area.
>>
>> 4) "Use a wood prop."
>>
>> {Response} A wood prop, rather than a metal prop,would certainly lessen
>> the
>> impact on an engine when it contacted an object while the engine was
>> running. But the engine manufactures' instructions on required teardown
>> and
>> inspection when a prop strike is encountered would not let one off the
>> hook
>> just because the prop was wood rather than metal.
>>
>> 'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort
>> to
>> gather and
>> understand knowledge."
>>
>>
>> =====================================================
>>
>> Time: 09:52:18 AM PST US
>> From: tmclam@comcast.net
>> Subject: KIS-List: TR1 NG2
>>
>>
>> Hi OC and others
>>
>> I threw this firecracker out there because i suddenly realized how much
>>
>> and how fast KIS lifetime has passed with one of the two problems still
>>
>> hanging out there.[Some of us will probably go West sooner then later
>>
>> taking some valuable KIS thoughts with them.]
>>
>> The Elevator authority problem can be handled with higher approach speed
>>
>> on a longer runway and/or increasing elevator size [with vortex
>>
>> generators?]
>>
>> The Nose Gear weakness is a continuous black cloud overhead because it
>>
>> can lead to a financial disaster.A collapse and a damaged metal Prop
>>
>> automatically requires engine removal and Tear Down.The total proper
>>
>> repair cost cold easily exceed sensible limits and result in scrapping
>> the
>>
>>
>> airplane.Use a wood prop.
>>
>> The trigger point for starting this bloody exercise was noting the
>>
>> Healthy nose gear leg on the new RV12[Light Sport]advertisement pictures.
>>
>>
>> I have stirred up enough trouble tonight.
>>
>> Ted
>>
>
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Flight Manual |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Anderson" <kcruiser1947@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 6:54 AM
Subject: KIS-List: Flight Manual
Hi Guys
Just read article Ramp Check page 16 Sport Aviation.
Are we required to have a flight manual? Our planes do not come with one.
If so what info needs to be in it?
I have check sheets that cover Start up, Taxi, Take off, Landing, and
emergency.
Bob A
===========================================
6/3/2010
Hello Bob, Please see below a copy of my response the last time that you
asked this question.
'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."
==============================================================
4/11/2008
Hello Bob, My apologies for the tardy answer. My goal is to have only 20
emails in my in / pending box -- right now I have 138 so you can see that I
am a bit behind.
To answer your question -- I think the short answer is that the FAA intends
that you do have an Airplane Flight Manual for your airplane, but has no
enforcement mechanism in place. I'll explain:
1) First off let's assume you are asking about an FAA required publication
called an "Airplane Flight Manual". We'll leave the discussion about the
differences between AFM (Airplane Flight Manuals), POH (Pilot Operating
Handbooks), and PIM (Pilot Information Manuals) for another day.
2) Here is an excerpt regarding certification of amateur built experimental
aircraft from FAA Order 8130.2F, including change 3, Section 9. Paragraph e.
(5),
"Advising Applicants. Second, the flight test data is used to develop an
accurate and complete aircraft flight manual and to establish emergency
procedures."
3) Your airplane's Operating Limitations say this:
" In addition, this aircraft must be operated in accordance with applicable
air traffic and general operating rules of part 91 and all additional
limitations herein prescribed under the provisions of 91.319(i). These
operating limitations are a part of Form 8130-7, and are to be carried in
the aircraft at all times and be available to the pilot in command of the
aircraft."
4) Now let's see what FAR Section 91.9 says:
"Civil aircraft flight manual, marking, and placard requirements.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may
operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations
specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings,
and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of
the country of registry.
(b) No person may operate a U.S.-registered civil aircraft-
(1) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is required by 21.5
of this chapter unless there is available in the aircraft a current,
approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or the manual provided for in
121.141(b); and
(2) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is not required by
21.5 of this chapter, unless there is available in the aircraft a current
approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual material,
markings, and placards, or any combination thereof."
5) Now let's see what FAR Sec 21.5 says:
"21.5 Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual.
(a) With each airplane or rotorcraft that was not type certificated with an
Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual and that has had no flight time prior
to March 1, 1979, the holder of a Type Certificate (including a Supplemental
Type Certificate) or the licensee of a Type Certificate shall make available
to the owner at the time of delivery of the aircraft a current approved
Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual.
(b) The Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual required by paragraph (a) of
this section must contain the following information:
(1) The operating limitations and information required to be furnished in an
Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or in manual material, markings, and
placards, by the applicable regulations under which the airplane or
rotorcraft was type certificated."
Since we builders of amateur built experimental aircraft are not holders of
a Type Certificate we don't have to make available a current approved
Airplane Flight Manual to the owner (ourselves) at the time of delivery of
the aircraft.
I hope that I haven't lost you or bored you with this tour through the regs.
I welcome any other inputs on this subject. Undoubtedly there are people,
including FAA employees who do think an Airplane Flight Manual is required
by regulation. I urge them to show us how.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
PS: Note that the data intended to be used to create the Airplane Flight
Manual for the amateur built airplane is not available at the time of
original FAA airworthiness certification inspection, but is only gained
during the Phase One flight testing. So the FAA's one opportunity to examine
your airplane and paperwork, other than for issuing the Repairman's
Certificate, or when you make a major modification, is passed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Anderson" <kcruiser@hickorytech.net>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 1:55 PM
Subject: pilot operating handbook
> {#} Replies are directed back to kisbuilders@angus.mystery.com
> {#} To reply to the author, write to "Bob Anderson"
> <kcruiser@hickorytech.net>
>
> Hi OC
> Are we required to create a pilot operating handbook?
>
> Bob Anderson
> Cruiser N949Y
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Flight Manual |
All,=0A=0AThere are two sample copies of flight manuals, one for the TR-1 a
nd one for the TR-4 on my website under the tips and tricks section.- The
y are both in the PDF format and can be downloaded.- I believe I have the
text versions of both as well if you need them.- They could be easily up
dated and modified for individual use.=0A=0ABob Reed=0A=0A-=0A=0A=0A=0A__
______________________________=0AFrom: "bakerocb@cox.net" <bakerocb@cox.net
>=0ATo: kis-list@matronics.com; kcruiser1947@yahoo.com=0ASent: Thu, June 3,
2010 7:07:06 PM=0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Flight Manual=0A=0A--> KIS-List m
essage posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----- F
rom: "Robert Anderson" <kcruiser1947@yahoo.com>=0ATo: "kisbuilders" <kis-li
st@matronics.com>=0ASent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 6:54 AM=0ASubject: KIS-L
ist: Flight Manual=0A=0A=0AHi Guys=0AJust read article Ramp Check page 16 S
port Aviation.=0AAre we required to have a flight manual? Our planes do not
come with one.=0AIf so what info needs to be in it?=0AI have check sheets
that cover Start up, Taxi, Take off, Landing, and emergency.=0A=0ABob A=0A
=0A========================
=====================0A=0A6/3/2010
=0A=0AHello Bob, Please see below a copy of my response the last time that
you asked this question.=0A=0A'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can
make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge."=0A=0A=
=============0A=0A4/11/2008=0A=0AHello Bob, My apol
ogies for the tardy answer. My goal is to have only 20=0Aemails in my in /
pending box -- right now I have 138 so you can see that I=0Aam a bit behind
.=0A=0ATo answer your question -- I think the short answer is that the FAA
intends=0Athat you do have an Airplane Flight Manual for your airplane, but
has no=0Aenforcement mechanism in place. I'll explain:=0A=0A1) First off l
et's assume you are asking about an FAA required publication=0Acalled an "A
irplane Flight Manual". We'll leave the discussion about the=0Adifferences
between AFM (Airplane Flight Manuals), POH (Pilot Operating=0AHandbooks), a
nd PIM (Pilot Information Manuals) for another day.=0A=0A2) Here is an exce
rpt regarding certification of amateur built experimental=0Aaircraft from F
AA Order 8130.2F, including change 3, Section 9. Paragraph e.=0A(5),=0A=0A"
Advising Applicants. Second, the flight test data is used to develop an=0Aa
ccurate and complete aircraft flight manual and to establish emergency=0Apr
ocedures."=0A=0A3) Your airplane's Operating Limitations say this:=0A=0A" I
n addition, this aircraft must be operated in accordance with applicable=0A
air traffic and general operating rules of part 91 and all additional=0Alim
itations herein prescribed under the provisions of =A7 91.319(i). These=0Ao
perating limitations are a part of Form 8130-7, and are to be carried in=0A
the aircraft at all times and be available to the pilot in command of the
=0Aaircraft."=0A=0A4) Now let's see what FAR Section 91.9 says:=0A=0A"Civil
aircraft flight manual, marking, and placard requirements.=0A=0A(a) Except
as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may=0Aoperate a ci
vil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations=0Aspecified i
n the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings,=0Aand placar
ds, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of=0Athe coun
try of registry.=0A=0A(b) No person may operate a U.S.-registered civil air
craft-=0A=0A(1) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is requir
ed by =A721.5=0Aof this chapter unless there is available in the aircraft a
current,=0Aapproved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or the manual pro
vided for in=0A=A7121.141(b); and=0A=0A(2) For which an Airplane or Rotorcr
aft Flight Manual is not required by=0A=A721.5 of this chapter, unless ther
e is available in the aircraft a current=0Aapproved Airplane or Rotorcraft
Flight Manual, approved manual material,=0Amarkings, and placards, or any c
ombination thereof."=0A=0A5) Now let's see what FAR Sec 21.5 says:=0A=0A"21
.5- Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual.=0A=0A(a) With each airplane or
rotorcraft that was not type certificated with an=0AAirplane or Rotorcraft
Flight Manual and that has had no flight time prior=0Ato March 1, 1979, the
holder of a Type Certificate (including a Supplemental=0AType Certificate)
or the licensee of a Type Certificate shall make available=0Ato the owner
at the time of delivery of the aircraft a current approved=0AAirplane or Ro
torcraft Flight Manual.=0A=0A(b) The Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual r
equired by paragraph (a) of=0Athis section must contain the following infor
mation:=0A=0A(1) The operating limitations and information required to be f
urnished in an=0AAirplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or in manual material
, markings, and=0Aplacards, by the applicable regulations under which the a
irplane or=0Arotorcraft was type certificated."=0A=0ASince we builders of a
mateur built experimental aircraft are not holders of=0Aa Type Certificate
we don't have to make available a current approved=0AAirplane Flight Manual
to the owner (ourselves) at the time of delivery of=0Athe aircraft.=0A=0AI
hope that I haven't lost you or bored you with this tour through the regs.
=0AI welcome any other inputs on this subject. Undoubtedly there are people
,=0Aincluding FAA employees who do think an Airplane Flight Manual is requi
red=0Aby regulation. I urge them to show us how.=0A=0A'OC' Says: "The best
investment we can make is the effort to gather and=0Aunderstand knowledge."
=0A=0APS: Note that the data intended to be used to create the Airplane Fli
ght=0AManual for the amateur built airplane is not available at the time of
=0Aoriginal FAA airworthiness certification inspection, but is only gained
=0Aduring the Phase One flight testing. So the FAA's one opportunity to exa
mine=0Ayour airplane and paperwork, other than for issuing the Repairman's
=0ACertificate, or when you make a major modification, is passed.=0A=0A----
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A--
--- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Anderson" <kcruiser@hickorytech.net>
=0ATo: "kisbuilders" <kisbuilders@angus.mystery.com>=0ASent: Friday, April
04, 2008 1:55 PM=0ASubject: pilot operating handbook=0A=0A=0A> {#}- Repli
es are directed back to kisbuilders@angus.mystery.com=0A> {#}- To reply t
o the author, write to "Bob Anderson"=0A> <kcruiser@hickorytech.net>=0A>
=0A> Hi OC=0A> Are we required to create a pilot operating handbook?=0A>
=0A> Bob Anderson=0A> Cruiser N949Y=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_
-========================
-========================
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