---------------------------------------------------------- KIS-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/03/10: 4 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:23 AM - TR1 NG2 () 2. 05:01 PM - Re: TR1 NG2 (Graham Brighton) 3. 05:07 PM - Re: Flight Manual () 4. 06:40 PM - Re: Flight Manual (Robert Reed) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:38 AM PST US From: Subject: KIS-List: TR1 NG2 6/3/2010 Hello Ted, You wrote: 1) "I have stirred up enough trouble tonight." {Response} No trouble at all -- your inputs have generated some very valuable thinking about an existing and potential problem. 2) "The Elevator authority problem can be handled with higher approach speed on a longer runway and/or increasing elevator size [with vortex generators?]" {Response} There are really two aspects to the problem of loss of / suddenly reduced pitch authority in the KIS TR-1 landing flare. One is elevator authority (as you write) and the other is the airflow burble generated by intermittent airflow detachment in the pinched in area of the wing to fuselage fairing. The elevator authority situation can be approached (as you write) with either extending the elevator trailing edge or several small vortex generators installed on the bottom of the trailing edge of the horizontal stabilizer. The airflow detachment situation can be approached by either building and installing larger wing to fuselage fairings as Julian Bone did or installing a vortex generator on both sides of the fuselage just forward of the wing leading edge as Cirrus -- and some RV-8 builders -- have done with their later models. This would create some higher energy air in that pinched in area. I am playing around with imitations of the Cirrus approach -- see the attached picture of a temporarily attached vortex generator. I think that in order to refine / validate this fuselage installed vortex generator approach one would have to install video cameras and do some airflow testing with yarn tufts. That is a bit beyond my motivation. 3) "The trigger point for starting this bloody exercise was noting the Healthy nose gear leg on the new RV12[Light Sport]advertisement pictures." {Response} Good eye and good thinking. I think that one would have a better chance of obtaining a new nose landing gear strut assembly from Van's than from Diamond, Cirrus, or any of the other manufacturers of that type of nose gear strut. A salvage yard may also be a source for such a nose gear strut. The most difficult aspect of replacing the nose landing gear strut may be in trying to exactly match the firewall attachment arrangement so that one does not have to do extensive modifications to the firewall in that area. 4) "Use a wood prop." {Response} A wood prop, rather than a metal prop,would certainly lessen the impact on an engine when it contacted an object while the engine was running. But the engine manufactures' instructions on required teardown and inspection when a prop strike is encountered would not let one off the hook just because the prop was wood rather than metal. 'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge." ===================================================== Time: 09:52:18 AM PST US From: tmclam@comcast.net Subject: KIS-List: TR1 NG2 Hi OC and others I threw this firecracker out there because i suddenly realized how much and how fast KIS lifetime has passed with one of the two problems still hanging out there.[Some of us will probably go West sooner then later taking some valuable KIS thoughts with them.] The Elevator authority problem can be handled with higher approach speed on a longer runway and/or increasing elevator size [with vortex generators?] The Nose Gear weakness is a continuous black cloud overhead because it can lead to a financial disaster.A collapse and a damaged metal Prop automatically requires engine removal and Tear Down.The total proper repair cost cold easily exceed sensible limits and result in scrapping the airplane.Use a wood prop. The trigger point for starting this bloody exercise was noting the Healthy nose gear leg on the new RV12[Light Sport]advertisement pictures. I have stirred up enough trouble tonight. Ted ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:01:57 PM PST US From: "Graham Brighton" Subject: Re: KIS-List: TR1 NG2 G'Day back Larry, Re Repairs ...Well have my new leg from Bob here ok ..its a bit beefier than the original .. in that it is longer in cord ( funny way to describe a n/leg strut ..but its the airfoil section !) It doesn't have the doubling that the original one had so i will add doubling before i go ahead and fit it ... As to the rear spar wing mounting point repair ... haven't really started with that but have pretty much thought out that i'll replace the alloy mounting block is there ...with a longer one that will extend along further to behind the flap hinge ..so that it acts as a reinforcing doubler .. in combo with some glassing too .. Engine wise ...well took the engine back to the Engine Builders ...who can't find a reason for the inlet valve to have bocken off ... The Oil Pressure drop was a result of the wire being loose on the seder unit ..the shop was messing with the sender unit earlier !! What i'm left with is that its an engine head assembly error or just a freak dodgy valve !? Was thinking of using a turbo block (subaru) for a base of a new engine way back .... but a zero time NA complete engine came up and i went that way (big mistake ) Read with interest ur article from Maxwell P... and have purchased a 2.5 sti short block ..in standard turbo trim its 300 HP .... i'll be running NA with 190-200 hp so it will be somewhat derated so i'm much happier with that .. ( oh and i'm shopping for a Subaru junker car to use as a test bed for dyno data recording etc ...) Decided airframe is no place to be fitting an untried auto conversion hey ..especially with a short runway .. my empty weight 1020 lbs and standard TR1 wing ... its not going to be a great off-field lander ...!!!!! Scott's extra span and light weight should see a fantastic ( low) stall speed ... promises to be a real special a/craft ... For Now Graham .. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry David" Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 3:30 AM Subject: Fw: KIS-List: TR1 NG2 > Hi Graham, > I assume you saw this, but if you didn't here it is. I especially like to > read OC's answers. He provides sound advice. > How is the plane repair coming? > Larry > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "KIS-LIST, MATRONICS" ; > Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 5:18 AM > Subject: KIS-List: TR1 NG2 > > >> 6/3/2010 >> >> Hello Ted, You wrote: >> >> 1) "I have stirred up enough trouble tonight." >> >> {Response} No trouble at all -- your inputs have generated some very >> valuable thinking about an existing and potential problem. >> >> 2) "The Elevator authority problem can be handled with higher approach >> speed >> on a longer runway and/or increasing elevator size [with vortex >> generators?]" >> >> {Response} There are really two aspects to the problem of loss of / >> suddenly >> reduced pitch authority in the KIS TR-1 landing flare. One is elevator >> authority (as you write) and the other is the airflow burble generated by >> intermittent airflow detachment in the pinched in area of the wing to >> fuselage fairing. >> >> The elevator authority situation can be approached (as you write) with >> either extending the elevator trailing edge or several small vortex >> generators installed on the bottom of the trailing edge of the horizontal >> stabilizer. >> >> The airflow detachment situation can be approached by either building and >> installing larger wing to fuselage fairings as Julian Bone did or >> installing >> a vortex generator on both sides of the fuselage just forward of the wing >> leading edge as Cirrus -- and some RV-8 builders -- have done with their >> later models. This would create some higher energy air in that pinched in >> area. >> >> I am playing around with imitations of the Cirrus approach -- see the >> attached picture of a temporarily attached vortex generator. I think that >> in >> order to refine / validate this fuselage installed vortex generator >> approach >> one would have to install video cameras and do some airflow testing with >> yarn tufts. That is a bit beyond my motivation. >> >> 3) "The trigger point for starting this bloody exercise was noting the >> Healthy nose gear leg on the new RV12[Light Sport]advertisement >> pictures." >> >> {Response} Good eye and good thinking. I think that one would have a >> better >> chance of obtaining a new nose landing gear strut assembly from Van's >> than >> from Diamond, Cirrus, or any of the other manufacturers of that type of >> nose >> gear strut. A salvage yard may also be a source for such a nose gear >> strut. >> >> The most difficult aspect of replacing the nose landing gear strut may be >> in >> trying to exactly match the firewall attachment arrangement so that one >> does >> not have to do extensive modifications to the firewall in that area. >> >> 4) "Use a wood prop." >> >> {Response} A wood prop, rather than a metal prop,would certainly lessen >> the >> impact on an engine when it contacted an object while the engine was >> running. But the engine manufactures' instructions on required teardown >> and >> inspection when a prop strike is encountered would not let one off the >> hook >> just because the prop was wood rather than metal. >> >> 'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort >> to >> gather and >> understand knowledge." >> >> >> ===================================================== >> >> Time: 09:52:18 AM PST US >> From: tmclam@comcast.net >> Subject: KIS-List: TR1 NG2 >> >> >> Hi OC and others >> >> I threw this firecracker out there because i suddenly realized how much >> >> and how fast KIS lifetime has passed with one of the two problems still >> >> hanging out there.[Some of us will probably go West sooner then later >> >> taking some valuable KIS thoughts with them.] >> >> The Elevator authority problem can be handled with higher approach speed >> >> on a longer runway and/or increasing elevator size [with vortex >> >> generators?] >> >> The Nose Gear weakness is a continuous black cloud overhead because it >> >> can lead to a financial disaster.A collapse and a damaged metal Prop >> >> automatically requires engine removal and Tear Down.The total proper >> >> repair cost cold easily exceed sensible limits and result in scrapping >> the >> >> >> airplane.Use a wood prop. >> >> The trigger point for starting this bloody exercise was noting the >> >> Healthy nose gear leg on the new RV12[Light Sport]advertisement pictures. >> >> >> I have stirred up enough trouble tonight. >> >> Ted >> > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:20 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: KIS-List: Flight Manual ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Anderson" Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 6:54 AM Subject: KIS-List: Flight Manual Hi Guys Just read article Ramp Check page 16 Sport Aviation. Are we required to have a flight manual? Our planes do not come with one. If so what info needs to be in it? I have check sheets that cover Start up, Taxi, Take off, Landing, and emergency. Bob A =========================================== 6/3/2010 Hello Bob, Please see below a copy of my response the last time that you asked this question. 'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge." ============================================================== 4/11/2008 Hello Bob, My apologies for the tardy answer. My goal is to have only 20 emails in my in / pending box -- right now I have 138 so you can see that I am a bit behind. To answer your question -- I think the short answer is that the FAA intends that you do have an Airplane Flight Manual for your airplane, but has no enforcement mechanism in place. I'll explain: 1) First off let's assume you are asking about an FAA required publication called an "Airplane Flight Manual". We'll leave the discussion about the differences between AFM (Airplane Flight Manuals), POH (Pilot Operating Handbooks), and PIM (Pilot Information Manuals) for another day. 2) Here is an excerpt regarding certification of amateur built experimental aircraft from FAA Order 8130.2F, including change 3, Section 9. Paragraph e. (5), "Advising Applicants. Second, the flight test data is used to develop an accurate and complete aircraft flight manual and to establish emergency procedures." 3) Your airplane's Operating Limitations say this: " In addition, this aircraft must be operated in accordance with applicable air traffic and general operating rules of part 91 and all additional limitations herein prescribed under the provisions of 91.319(i). These operating limitations are a part of Form 8130-7, and are to be carried in the aircraft at all times and be available to the pilot in command of the aircraft." 4) Now let's see what FAR Section 91.9 says: "Civil aircraft flight manual, marking, and placard requirements. (a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings, and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of the country of registry. (b) No person may operate a U.S.-registered civil aircraft- (1) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is required by 21.5 of this chapter unless there is available in the aircraft a current, approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or the manual provided for in 121.141(b); and (2) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is not required by 21.5 of this chapter, unless there is available in the aircraft a current approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual material, markings, and placards, or any combination thereof." 5) Now let's see what FAR Sec 21.5 says: "21.5 Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual. (a) With each airplane or rotorcraft that was not type certificated with an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual and that has had no flight time prior to March 1, 1979, the holder of a Type Certificate (including a Supplemental Type Certificate) or the licensee of a Type Certificate shall make available to the owner at the time of delivery of the aircraft a current approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual. (b) The Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual required by paragraph (a) of this section must contain the following information: (1) The operating limitations and information required to be furnished in an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or in manual material, markings, and placards, by the applicable regulations under which the airplane or rotorcraft was type certificated." Since we builders of amateur built experimental aircraft are not holders of a Type Certificate we don't have to make available a current approved Airplane Flight Manual to the owner (ourselves) at the time of delivery of the aircraft. I hope that I haven't lost you or bored you with this tour through the regs. I welcome any other inputs on this subject. Undoubtedly there are people, including FAA employees who do think an Airplane Flight Manual is required by regulation. I urge them to show us how. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." PS: Note that the data intended to be used to create the Airplane Flight Manual for the amateur built airplane is not available at the time of original FAA airworthiness certification inspection, but is only gained during the Phase One flight testing. So the FAA's one opportunity to examine your airplane and paperwork, other than for issuing the Repairman's Certificate, or when you make a major modification, is passed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Anderson" Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 1:55 PM Subject: pilot operating handbook > {#} Replies are directed back to kisbuilders@angus.mystery.com > {#} To reply to the author, write to "Bob Anderson" > > > Hi OC > Are we required to create a pilot operating handbook? > > Bob Anderson > Cruiser N949Y ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:19 PM PST US From: Robert Reed Subject: Re: KIS-List: Flight Manual All,=0A=0AThere are two sample copies of flight manuals, one for the TR-1 a nd one for the TR-4 on my website under the tips and tricks section.- The y are both in the PDF format and can be downloaded.- I believe I have the text versions of both as well if you need them.- They could be easily up dated and modified for individual use.=0A=0ABob Reed=0A=0A-=0A=0A=0A=0A__ ______________________________=0AFrom: "bakerocb@cox.net" =0ATo: kis-list@matronics.com; kcruiser1947@yahoo.com=0ASent: Thu, June 3, 2010 7:07:06 PM=0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Flight Manual=0A=0A--> KIS-List m essage posted by: =0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----- F rom: "Robert Anderson" =0ATo: "kisbuilders" =0ASent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 6:54 AM=0ASubject: KIS-L ist: Flight Manual=0A=0A=0AHi Guys=0AJust read article Ramp Check page 16 S port Aviation.=0AAre we required to have a flight manual? Our planes do not come with one.=0AIf so what info needs to be in it?=0AI have check sheets that cover Start up, Taxi, Take off, Landing, and emergency.=0A=0ABob A=0A =0A======================== =====================0A=0A6/3/2010 =0A=0AHello Bob, Please see below a copy of my response the last time that you asked this question.=0A=0A'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge."=0A=0A= =============0A=0A4/11/2008=0A=0AHello Bob, My apol ogies for the tardy answer. My goal is to have only 20=0Aemails in my in / pending box -- right now I have 138 so you can see that I=0Aam a bit behind .=0A=0ATo answer your question -- I think the short answer is that the FAA intends=0Athat you do have an Airplane Flight Manual for your airplane, but has no=0Aenforcement mechanism in place. I'll explain:=0A=0A1) First off l et's assume you are asking about an FAA required publication=0Acalled an "A irplane Flight Manual". We'll leave the discussion about the=0Adifferences between AFM (Airplane Flight Manuals), POH (Pilot Operating=0AHandbooks), a nd PIM (Pilot Information Manuals) for another day.=0A=0A2) Here is an exce rpt regarding certification of amateur built experimental=0Aaircraft from F AA Order 8130.2F, including change 3, Section 9. Paragraph e.=0A(5),=0A=0A" Advising Applicants. Second, the flight test data is used to develop an=0Aa ccurate and complete aircraft flight manual and to establish emergency=0Apr ocedures."=0A=0A3) Your airplane's Operating Limitations say this:=0A=0A" I n addition, this aircraft must be operated in accordance with applicable=0A air traffic and general operating rules of part 91 and all additional=0Alim itations herein prescribed under the provisions of =A7 91.319(i). These=0Ao perating limitations are a part of Form 8130-7, and are to be carried in=0A the aircraft at all times and be available to the pilot in command of the =0Aaircraft."=0A=0A4) Now let's see what FAR Section 91.9 says:=0A=0A"Civil aircraft flight manual, marking, and placard requirements.=0A=0A(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may=0Aoperate a ci vil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations=0Aspecified i n the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings,=0Aand placar ds, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of=0Athe coun try of registry.=0A=0A(b) No person may operate a U.S.-registered civil air craft-=0A=0A(1) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is requir ed by =A721.5=0Aof this chapter unless there is available in the aircraft a current,=0Aapproved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or the manual pro vided for in=0A=A7121.141(b); and=0A=0A(2) For which an Airplane or Rotorcr aft Flight Manual is not required by=0A=A721.5 of this chapter, unless ther e is available in the aircraft a current=0Aapproved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual material,=0Amarkings, and placards, or any c ombination thereof."=0A=0A5) Now let's see what FAR Sec 21.5 says:=0A=0A"21 .5- Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual.=0A=0A(a) With each airplane or rotorcraft that was not type certificated with an=0AAirplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual and that has had no flight time prior=0Ato March 1, 1979, the holder of a Type Certificate (including a Supplemental=0AType Certificate) or the licensee of a Type Certificate shall make available=0Ato the owner at the time of delivery of the aircraft a current approved=0AAirplane or Ro torcraft Flight Manual.=0A=0A(b) The Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual r equired by paragraph (a) of=0Athis section must contain the following infor mation:=0A=0A(1) The operating limitations and information required to be f urnished in an=0AAirplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or in manual material , markings, and=0Aplacards, by the applicable regulations under which the a irplane or=0Arotorcraft was type certificated."=0A=0ASince we builders of a mateur built experimental aircraft are not holders of=0Aa Type Certificate we don't have to make available a current approved=0AAirplane Flight Manual to the owner (ourselves) at the time of delivery of=0Athe aircraft.=0A=0AI hope that I haven't lost you or bored you with this tour through the regs. =0AI welcome any other inputs on this subject. Undoubtedly there are people ,=0Aincluding FAA employees who do think an Airplane Flight Manual is requi red=0Aby regulation. I urge them to show us how.=0A=0A'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and=0Aunderstand knowledge." =0A=0APS: Note that the data intended to be used to create the Airplane Fli ght=0AManual for the amateur built airplane is not available at the time of =0Aoriginal FAA airworthiness certification inspection, but is only gained =0Aduring the Phase One flight testing. So the FAA's one opportunity to exa mine=0Ayour airplane and paperwork, other than for issuing the Repairman's =0ACertificate, or when you make a major modification, is passed.=0A=0A---- ----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A-- --- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Anderson" =0ATo: "kisbuilders" =0ASent: Friday, April 04, 2008 1:55 PM=0ASubject: pilot operating handbook=0A=0A=0A> {#}- Repli es are directed back to kisbuilders@angus.mystery.com=0A> {#}- To reply t o the author, write to "Bob Anderson"=0A> =0A> =0A> Hi OC=0A> Are we required to create a pilot operating handbook?=0A> =0A> Bob Anderson=0A> Cruiser N949Y=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_ -======================== -======================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kis-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/KIS-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kis-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kis-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.