Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:35 AM - Re: Flight Manual ()
2. 05:47 AM - Flight Manual in EAB Aircraft ()
3. 06:01 PM - Re: fuel pump ()
4. 06:10 PM - Fw: Flight Manual in EAB Aircraft ()
5. 07:25 PM - Re: Re: fuel pump (Flyinisfun@aol.com)
6. 07:54 PM - Re: Re: fuel pump (F. Tim Yoder)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Flight Manual |
6/8/2010
Hello Bob, You wrote:
1) "Do you have a flight manual in your plane?"
{Response} No, I do not, but I have one in my computer -- does that count?
Hans Christian Erstad created a very nice 40 page manual for his KIS TR-1,
LN-KIS, (thanks again Hans Cristian) and made it available to us in some
manner that allowed me to download it. I have not yet modified it to meet my
airplane's information nor printed it out.
Do you suppose that if I put that file on a disc and put that in the
airplane it would fulfill the EAA's implied requirement for an experimental
amateur built airplane to have a flight manual on board?
On my soap box now -- I was very disappointed in the page 16 article in the
May 2010 issue of Sport Aviation.
Discussion:
I have made the point in the past of lawyers and bureaucrats writing
(including regulations) as if only type certificated airplanes existed. This
requires the experimental amateur built airplane builder and pilot to read
with a skeptical and searching mind. That is OK when reading some newstand
type "Gee, this is really me, really flying, a real airplane" magazine, but
I expect a higher standard of writing from the EAA.
To whit:
A) One paragraph in the page 16 article reads in part: "The inspector will
want to see aircraft documents, too. These include ....... radio station
license ...........".
A radio station license for an airplane is only required in certain
circumstances-- the article just glosses over this point -- sloppy writing
/ editing by the "Expert Panel".
B) Another paragraph discussing the requirement to have a flight manual
aboard reads in part: "Flying a rental aircraft without a flight manual is a
good example. .................. If you own the aircraft or built it,
obviously there is no one else to blame. ".
This paragraph implies that a flight manual is a mandatory item to be
carried in an experimental amateur built airplane. No regulatory
requirement for this implication is cited. This article in this magazine
owes us this citation, but does not provide it -- why not?
2) "Have you ever been ramp checked or have first hand knowledge of someone
who has that did not have a flight manual? If so, how did that go?"
{Response} Nope, no first hand knowledge -- only read or heard of horror
stories. Most recent one was of a local pilot flying a type certificated
helicopter who was grounded for a while because he did not have a copy of
the FAA letter on board authorizing his AASI (Aviation Medical Examiner
Assisted Special Issuance) medical certification letter with him on the
aircraft. A pilot is required to have both the issued medical certificate
and the FAA letter authorizing it with him when flying.
'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."
==================================================
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Anderson" <kcruiser1947@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Flight Manual
Hi OC
Thanks' for your reply. I am well aware that I have asked this question
before, however unlike gravity, the FAA is more than willing to change the
rules. After reading the article in Sport Aviation I thought I would ask it
again. Maybe their might be a new answer.
I have a couple of new questions.
Do you have a flight manual in your plane?
Have you ever been ramp checked or have first hand knowledge of someone who
has that did not have a flight manual? If so, how did that go?
Thanks' in advance.
Bob Anderson
=================================================
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Anderson"
<kcruiser1947@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 6:54 AM
Subject: KIS-List: Flight Manual
Hi Guys
Just read article Ramp Check page 16 Sport Aviation.
Are we required to have a flight manual? Our planes do not come with one.
If so what info needs to be in it?
I have check sheets that cover Start up, Taxi, Take off, Landing, and
emergency.
Bob A
Message 2
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| Subject: | Flight Manual in EAB Aircraft |
6/8/2010
Dear Editor, The article "Ramp Check!" on page 16 of the May 2010 issue of
Sport Aviation magazine implies that EAB (Experimental Amateur Built)
aircraft are required to have a flight manual on board when flying.
Presumably the article is referring to an "approved Airplane or Rotorcraft
Flight Manual" as referred to in 14 CFR 91.9.
Would you please cite the exact federal regulations that make this Airplane
or Rotorcraft Flight Manual requirement mandatory?
A prior discussion of this issue is copied below.
Thank you,
Owen C. Baker
EAA 0073580
=========================================================
To answer your question -- I think the short answer is that the FAA intends
that you do have an Airplane Flight Manual available while operating your
EAB (Experimental Amateur Built) aircraft (see 14 CFR 91.9), but has no
enforcement mechanism in place. I'll explain:
1) First off let's assume you are asking about an FAA required publication
called an "Airplane Flight Manual". We'll leave the discussion about the
differences between AFM (Airplane Flight Manuals), POH (Pilot Operating
Handbooks), and PIM (Pilot Information Manuals) for another day.
2) Here is an excerpt regarding certification of amateur built experimental
aircraft from FAA Order 8130.2F, including change 3, Section 9. Paragraph e.
(5),
"Advising Applicants. Second, the flight test data is used to develop an
accurate and complete aircraft flight manual and to establish emergency
procedures."
3) Your airplane's Operating Limitations say this:
" In addition, this aircraft must be operated in accordance with applicable
air traffic and general operating rules of part 91 and all additional
limitations herein prescribed under the provisions of 91.319(i). These
operating limitations are a part of Form 8130-7, and are to be carried in
the aircraft at all times and be available to the pilot in command of the
aircraft."
4) Now let's see what FAR Section 91.9 says:
"Civil aircraft flight manual, marking, and placard requirements.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may
operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations
specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings,
and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of
the country of registry.
(b) No person may operate a U.S.-registered civil aircraft-
(1) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is required by 21.5
of this chapter unless there is available in the aircraft a current,
approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or the manual provided for in
121.141(b); and
(2) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is not required by
21.5 of this chapter, unless there is available in the aircraft a current
approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual material,
markings, and placards, or any combination thereof."
Note particularly the words "....... or any combination thereof"
5) Now let's see what FAR Sec 21.5 says:
"21.5 Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual.
(a) With each airplane or rotorcraft that was not type certificated with an
Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual and that has had no flight time prior
to March 1, 1979, the holder of a Type Certificate (including a Supplemental
Type Certificate) or the licensee of a Type Certificate shall make available
to the owner at the time of delivery of the aircraft a current approved
Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual.
(b) The Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual required by paragraph (a) of
this section must contain the following information:
(1) The operating limitations and information required to be furnished in an
Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or in manual material, markings, and
placards, by the applicable regulations under which the airplane or
rotorcraft was type certificated."
Since we builders of amateur built experimental aircraft are not holders of
a Type Certificate we don't have to make available a current approved
Airplane Flight Manual to the owner (ourselves) at the time of delivery of
the aircraft.
6) Note that the data intended to be used to create the Airplane Flight
Manual for the experimental amateur built airplane is not available at the
time of
original FAA airworthiness certification inspection, but is only gained
during the Phase One flight testing. So the FAA's one normal or routine
opportunity to examine
your airplane and paperwork, other than for issuing the Repairman's
Certificate, or when you make a major modification, is passed.
7) If one is ramp checked and does not have a complete Airplane Flight
Manual on board the aircraft and the inspector is insisting that the pilot
must have one the pilot may cite the fact that in compliance with 91.9 (b)
(2) he has "....approved (by the original airworthiness inspector) manual
material, markings, and placards, or ANY combination thereof." on board his
aircraft.
I hope that I haven't lost you or bored you with this tour through the regs.
I welcome any other inputs on this subject. Undoubtedly there are people,
including FAA employees who do think a complete Airplane Flight Manual is
required
by regulation for operating EAB aircraft. I urge them to show us how.
Owen C. Baker
EAA 0073580
Message 3
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6/8/2010
Hello JF, I am sorry that your fuel pump is giving you problems. You wrote:
1) "I decided to have the engine fuel pump cheched by a authorisez mechanics
And during bench test the lack of pressure could be noticed so the engine
pump has a real problem........" and "the personn who performed the check
has all the documentation for all Continental pump ....excep for mine."
Two things puzzle me:
A) If the mechanic does not have the proper documentation for your pump how
could he be considered an authorized mechanic by TCM?
B) If the mechanic does not have the proper documentation for your pump how
could he conduct and analyze a proper bench check of the pump?
2) "I just hope that the documentation is available and it 's not necessary
to return it to the factory..." and "Now I have to find the official
documentation to repair this pump......."
The proper documentation for your pump should be available from the factory
direct to any authorized TCM maintenance facility. Electronic transmission
of documentation should not be a big problem given our present internet
technology.
3) "By instance,have you ever got that kind of problem with your engine fuel
pump?"
No, I have not, nor have I heard of anyone having that problem.
When the pump was still on your engine and your engine on your airplane were
you ever able to perform the tests and adjustments required by
http://www.tcmlink.com/pdf2/SID97-3E.pdf?
4) "Story to be follow"
Yes, please keep me informed -- I'd like to help if I can.
Owen 'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and
effort to gather and understand knowledge."
====================================================
----- Original Message -----
From: <jfherzog@bluewin.ch>
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 3:36 PM
Subject: fuel pump
> Hello Owen
>
> Some news regarding the engine stopage that I encountered during ground
> roll test.
>
> I tested the complet
> fuel circuit and after no success I decided to have the engine fuel pump
> cheched by a authorisez mechanics
>
> And during
> bench test the lack of pressure could be noticed so the engine pump has a
> real problem................
> Now I have to
> find the official documentation to repair this pump because, unfortunatly
> ,the personn who performed the check has all
> the documentation for all Continental pump ....excep for mine.
>
> I am trying to contact them,but no answer for the time.
> I just hope that the documentation is available and it 's not necessary to
> return it to the factory...
> By instance,have
> you ever got that kind of problem with your engine fuel pump?
>
> Story to be follow
>
> Best regards
>
> JF
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Fw: Flight Manual in EAB Aircraft |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Norris" <jnorris@eaa.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 3:45 PM
Subject: RE: Flight Manual in EAB Aircraft
Hello Mr. Baker,
Your email has been forwarded to me for response. My response is, you're
absolutely right! I agree 100% with your understanding of the regulations.
There is no regulatory requirement for a flight manual or operator handbook
of any kind in an experimental amateur-built aircraft. Some kit vendors or
users groups have developed flight manuals for some designs, and the FAA
would encourage individual builders/owners/pilots to develop a flight manual
for their aircraft, but there is no requirement and no enforcement mechanism
in place. The article should not have suggested that a flight manual is
required for an experimental amateur-built aircraft.
EAA will be running a clarification of this issue in an upcoming Sport
Aviation.
Let me know if you have any further questions or comments.
Joe
Joe Norris
EAA 113615 Lifetime
Homebuilders Community Manager
EAA-The Spirit of Aviation
Phone: 888.322.4636 Extension 6806
Fax: 920.426.4873
www.eaa.org
See you at EAA AirVenture Oshkosh-July 26 - August 1, 2010
Join us every day at Oshkosh 365! (www.oshkosh365.org)
=========================================================
-----Original Message-----
From: bakerocb@cox.net [mailto:bakerocb@cox.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 7:47 AM
Cc: KIS-LIST, MATRONICS; Charlie Becker
Subject: Flight Manual in EAB Aircraft
6/8/2010
Dear Editor, The article "Ramp Check!" on page 16 of the May 2010 issue of
Sport Aviation magazine implies that EAB (Experimental Amateur Built)
aircraft are required to have a flight manual on board when flying.
Presumably the article is referring to an "approved Airplane or Rotorcraft
Flight Manual" as referred to in 14 CFR 91.9.
Would you please cite the exact federal regulations that make this Airplane
or Rotorcraft Flight Manual requirement mandatory?
A prior discussion of this issue is copied below.
Thank you,
Owen C. Baker
EAA 0073580
=========================================================
Message 5
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Hi Owen,
May I jump in here to offer one thought. If you have a normally aspirated
carburetor you need a low pressure fuel pump. If you have a fuel
injection system you have to have a pump that puts out high pressure to feed it.
These are around 16-18 lbs. I know as I ordered a fuel pump for my engine
and somehow was sent the wrong one and never caught it until I flooded the
tarmac. Wonder I didn't have a fire.
I had mounted the fuel pump some two years earlier and there was no return
on it so I had to get the lower pressure one for my normal carburetor
system. It almost sounds like you have the fuel injection system and a low
pressure pump. Check the numbers against the Aircraft Spruce catalog.
Jesse Wright
Message 6
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What engine?
I reported having my IO-240's pump rebuilt last year.
Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: <bakerocb@cox.net>
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 6:00 PM
Subject: KIS-List: Re: fuel pump
>
> 6/8/2010
>
> Hello JF, I am sorry that your fuel pump is giving you problems. You
> wrote:
>
> 1) "I decided to have the engine fuel pump cheched by a authorisez
> mechanics And during bench test the lack of pressure could be noticed so
> the engine pump has a real problem........" and "the personn who performed
> the check has all the documentation for all Continental pump ....excep for
> mine."
>
> Two things puzzle me:
>
> A) If the mechanic does not have the proper documentation for your pump
> how could he be considered an authorized mechanic by TCM?
>
> B) If the mechanic does not have the proper documentation for your pump
> how could he conduct and analyze a proper bench check of the pump?
>
> 2) "I just hope that the documentation is available and it 's not
> necessary to return it to the factory..." and "Now I have to find the
> official documentation to repair this pump......."
>
> The proper documentation for your pump should be available from the
> factory direct to any authorized TCM maintenance facility. Electronic
> transmission of documentation should not be a big problem given our
> present internet technology.
>
> 3) "By instance,have you ever got that kind of problem with your engine
> fuel pump?"
>
> No, I have not, nor have I heard of anyone having that problem.
>
> When the pump was still on your engine and your engine on your airplane
> were you ever able to perform the tests and adjustments required by
> http://www.tcmlink.com/pdf2/SID97-3E.pdf?
>
> 4) "Story to be follow"
>
> Yes, please keep me informed -- I'd like to help if I can.
>
> Owen 'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and
> effort to gather and understand knowledge."
>
> ====================================================
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <jfherzog@bluewin.ch>
> To: <bakerocb@cox.net>
> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 3:36 PM
> Subject: fuel pump
>
>
>> Hello Owen
>>
>> Some news regarding the engine stopage that I encountered during ground
>> roll test.
>>
>> I tested the complet
>> fuel circuit and after no success I decided to have the engine fuel pump
>> cheched by a authorisez mechanics
>>
>> And during
>> bench test the lack of pressure could be noticed so the engine pump has a
>> real problem................
>> Now I have to
>> find the official documentation to repair this pump because, unfortunatly
>> ,the personn who performed the check has all
>> the documentation for all Continental pump ....excep for mine.
>>
>> I am trying to contact them,but no answer for the time.
>> I just hope that the documentation is available and it 's not necessary
>> to return it to the factory...
>> By instance,have
>> you ever got that kind of problem with your engine fuel pump?
>>
>> Story to be follow
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> JF
>>
>>
>
>
>
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