Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:13 AM - Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics ()
2. 06:51 AM - Re: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics (tmclam@comcast.net)
3. 07:44 AM - Fuselage Mounted Vortex Generators ()
4. 08:02 AM - Re: Fuselage Mounted Vortex Generators (Mark Kettering)
5. 10:44 AM - Re: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics (Larry David)
6. 01:13 PM - Crashing Often? ()
7. 01:23 PM - Re: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics ()
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics |
6/30/2010
Hello Larrry, You wrote:
1) "I wonder if there is a formula for computing the location of the vortex
generator like there is for
the wing fairing."
What wing fairing formula are you referring to? I suspect that the location
of the vortex generators on the fuselage sides in front of the wing is based
on the TLAR formula followed by lots of inflight testing -- that is the
formula that I am using.
2) "It looks like a step. I wonder how many times someone will step on it by
mistake."
It does have words like "NO STEP" painted on it. Haven't seen any broken off
stubs yet.
3) "I will be interested in reading the results of your testing."
Please don't hold your breath while waiting. I've made only two or three
flights with them on so far and they have been moved between flights at
least once. Any results will be very subjective since A) I don't have any
means (yarn tufts and video camera) to visually to gather persisting data
and B) I can't consistently land the plane the same way each time I try.
Right now I am involved / distracted by testing some repositioning of my
center stop spring bias pitch trim actuator. There is not enough travel in
the Ray Allen trim motor to handle the entire range of pitch trim needed so
I was using a bent aluminum tab taped to the elevator to give me enough nose
down trim at aft CG location conditions. A fellow aviator took exception to
the lack of elegance to that approach and shamed me into trying again to
solve that lack of pitch trim range with a different approach. (I tried to
convince him that any homebuilt worthy of its name had some (duct) tape on
it some place, but he wasn't buying that.) My initial repositioning attempt
flown yesterday was not successful.
'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."
PS: There is a third solution to the intermittent burble flowing back to the
horizontal tail surfaces
from the pinched in wing to fuselage juncture that I failed to mention in
the email that you quoted from below. That solution is to carry a bit of
engine power above idle. My attempts to use that technique have always
resulted in excess float in ground effect down the runway after the landing
flare.
=====================================================
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry David" <lgdavid@roadrunner.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 12:14 AM
Subject: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics
OC, I see it clearer now from the cirrus pictures. I wonder if there is a
formula for computing the location of the vortex generator like there is for
the wing fairing. It looks like a step. I wonder how many times someone
will step on it by mistake. :-) I will be interested in reading the
results of your testing. Larry
=====================================================
On 6/22/2010 4:44:02 AM, bakerocb@cox.net wrote:
> 6/22/2010
>
> Hello Larry, You wrote:
>
> 1)
> "With that information, I am guessing that would be placed them about
> four inches in front of the wing and a little above the extended chord
line,
> right?"
>
> You can see the placement of these vortex generators on Cirrus airplanes
> by
> going to this web site and watching closely as the pictures flow by:
>
> http://cirrusaircraft.com/
>
> They are definitely placed well below a forward extended wing chord line.
>
> Remember that they are supposed to do their job at higher angles of
attack.
>
>
> 2) "......... solve the problem ......." and
> "........ a perfect solution
> ........ "
>
> There are two separate, but somewhat interrelated problems, as far as I
> can
> tell, that
> don't lend themselves to just one solution:
>
> A) Inadequate pitch authority from a too small elevator -- to be solved or
> improved by making the elevator larger and / or vortex generators on the
> lower side of the horizontal stabilizer.
>
> B) An intermittent burble flowing back to the horizontal tail surfaces
from
> the pinched in wing to fuselage juncture. To be solved by a larger radius
> juncture or vortex generators mounted on the fuselage.
>
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics |
----- Original Message -----
From: bakerocb@cox.net
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 7:12:46 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: KIS-List: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics
6/30/2010
Hello Larrry, You wrote:
1) "I wonder if there is a formula for computing the location of the vortex
generator like there is for
the wing fairing."
What wing fairing formula are you referring to? I suspect that the location
of the vortex generators on the fuselage sides in front of the wing is based
on the TLAR formula followed by lots of inflight testing -- that is the
formula that I am using.
2) "It looks like a step. I wonder how many times someone will step on it by
mistake."
It does have words like "NO STEP" painted on it. Haven't seen any broken off
stubs yet.
3) "I will be interested in reading the results of your testing."
Please don't hold your breath while waiting. I've made only two or three
flights with them on so far and they have been moved between flights at
least once. Any results will be very subjective since A) I don't have any
means (yarn tufts and video camera) to visually to gather persisting data
and B) I can't consistently land the plane the same way each time I try.
Right now I am involved / distracted by testing some repositioning of my
center stop spring bias pitch trim actuator. There is not enough travel in
the Ray Allen trim motor to handle the entire range of pitch trim needed so
I was using a bent aluminum tab taped to the elevator to give me enough nose
down trim at aft CG location conditions. A fellow aviator took exception to
the lack of elegance to that approach and shamed me into trying again to
solve that lack of pitch trim range with a different approach. (I tried to
convince him that any homebuilt worthy of its name had some (duct) tape on
it some place, but he wasn't buying that.) My initial repositioning attempt
flown yesterday was not successful.
'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."
PS: There is a third solution to the intermittent burble flowing back to the
horizontal tail surfaces
from the pinched in wing to fuselage juncture that I failed to mention in
the email that you quoted from below. That solution is to carry a bit of
engine power above idle. My attempts to use that technique have always
resulted in excess float in ground effect down the runway after the landing
flare.
======================================================
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry David" <lgdavid@roadrunner.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 12:14 AM
Subject: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics
OC, I see it clearer now from the cirrus pictures. I wonder if there is a
formula for computing the location of the vortex generator like there is for
the wing fairing. It looks like a step. I wonder how many times someone
will step on it by mistake. :-) I will be interested in reading the
results of your testing. Larry
======================================================
On 6/22/2010 4:44:02 AM, bakerocb@cox.net wrote:
> 6/22/2010
>
> Hello Larry, You wrote:
>
> 1)
> "With that information, I am guessing that would be placed them about
> four inches in front of the wing and a little above the extended chord
line,
> right?"
>
> You can see the placement of these vortex generators on Cirrus airplanes
> by
> going to this web site and watching closely as the pictures flow by:
>
> http://cirrusaircraft.com/
>
> They are definitely placed well below a forward extended wing chord line.
>
> Remember that they are supposed to do their job at higher angles of
attack.
>
>
> 2) "......... solve the problem ......." and
> "........ a perfect solution
> ........ "
>
> There are two separate, but somewhat interrelated problems, as far as I
> can
> tell, that
> don't lend themselves to just one solution:
>
> A) Inadequate pitch authority from a too small elevator -- to be solved or
> improved by making the elevator larger and / or vortex generators on the
> lower side of the horizontal stabilizer.
>
> B) An intermittent burble flowing back to the horizontal tail surfaces
from
> the pinched in wing to fuselage juncture. To be solved by a larger radius
> juncture or vortex generators mounted on the fuselage.
OC:Just subjectively ,are you encouraged with your attempts so far with the large
Vortex generator?
Ted
Message 3
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Subject: | Fuselage Mounted Vortex Generators |
> OC:Just subjectively ,are you encouraged with your attempts so far with
> the large Vortex generator?
> Ted
=================================================================
6/30/2010
Hello Ted, Every time that I fly (and don't crash -- which has not been too
often) I am encouraged.
OC
PS: Banging my knee against one of the fuselage mounted vortex generators
has discouraged me a bit.
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Fuselage Mounted Vortex Generators |
Hi OC,
I am a bit confused. Did you mean to say that it is not too often that you don't
crash when you fly? This must be very hard on you, the plane and your finances...
Mark
-----Original Message-----
>From: bakerocb@cox.net
>Sent: Jun 30, 2010 10:16 AM
>To: kis-list@matronics.com, tmclam@comcast.net
>Subject: KIS-List: Fuselage Mounted Vortex Generators
>
>
>
>> OC:Just subjectively ,are you encouraged with your attempts so far with
>> the large Vortex generator?
>> Ted
>
>=================================================================
>
>6/30/2010
>
>Hello Ted, Every time that I fly (and don't crash -- which has not been too
>often) I am encouraged.
>
>OC
>
>PS: Banging my knee against one of the fuselage mounted vortex generators
>has discouraged me a bit.
>
>
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics |
Julian Bone, as part of his research and testing, came up with a book by St
inton. Page 171 really told the story about our problem and gave the formu
la for the correct wing fairing curve ,, 8 inch radius as I recall. The ti
tle and ISBN are: The Design of the Airplane (9781563475146) by Stinton, Da
rrol.
I bought a copy and loaned it to a fellow with a Glassair so he could desig
n his wing fairing. Julian did some really good work on the low speed stabi
lity problem. Pictures of his plane with the new wing fairing are on Bob's
web site as I recall.
Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: tmclam@comcast.net
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 6:44 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics
----- Original Message -----
From: bakerocb@cox.net
To: "MATRONICS KIS-LIST" <kis-list@matronics.com>, "Larry David" <lgdavid
@roadrunner.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 7:12:46 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: KIS-List: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics
6/30/2010
Hello Larrry, You wrote:
1) "I wonder if there is a formula for computing the location of the vort
ex
generator like there is for
the wing fairing."
What wing fairing formula are you referring to? I suspect that the locati
on
of the vortex generators on the fuselage sides in front of the wing is ba
sed
on the TLAR formula followed by lots of inflight testing -- that is the
formula that I am using.
2) "It looks like a step. I wonder how many times someone will step on it
by
mistake."
It does have words like "NO STEP" painted on it. Haven't seen any broken
off
stubs yet.
3) "I will be interested in reading the results of your testing."
Please don't hold your breath while waiting. I've made only two or three
flights with them on so far and they have been moved between flights at
least once. Any results will be very subjective since A) I don't have any
means (yarn tufts and video camera) to visually to gather persisting data
and B) I can't consistently land the plane the same way each time I try.
Right now I am involved / distracted by testing some repositioning of my
center stop spring bias pitch trim actuator. There is not enough travel i
n
the Ray Allen trim motor to handle the entire range of pitch trim needed
so
I was using a bent aluminum tab taped to the elevator to give me enough n
ose
down trim at aft CG location conditions. A fellow aviator took exception
to
the lack of elegance to that approach and shamed me into trying again to
solve that lack of pitch trim range with a different approach. (I tried t
o
convince him that any homebuilt worthy of its name had some (duct) tape o
n
it some place, but he wasn't buying that.) My initial repositioning attem
pt
flown yesterday was not successful.
'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort
to
gather and understand knowledge."
PS: There is a third solution to the intermittent burble flowing back to
the
horizontal tail surfaces
from the pinched in wing to fuselage juncture that I failed to mention in
the email that you quoted from below. That solution is to carry a bit of
engine power above idle. My attempts to use that technique have always
resulted in excess float in ground effect down the runway after the landi
ng
flare.
===
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry David" <lgdavid@roadrunner.com>
To: <bakerocb@cox.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 12:14 AM
Subject: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics
OC, I see it clearer now from the cirrus pictures. I wonder if there is
a
formula for computing the location of the vortex generator like there is
for
the wing fairing. It looks like a step. I wonder how many times someone
will step on it by mistake. :-) I will be interested in reading the
results of your testing. Larry
===
On 6/22/2010 4:44:02 AM, bakerocb@cox.net wrote:
> 6/22/2010
>
> Hello Larry, You wrote:
>
> 1)
> "With that information, I am guessing that would be placed them about
> four inches in front of the wing and a little above the extended chord
line,
> right?"
>
> You can see the placement of these vortex generators on Cirrus airplane
s
> by
> going to this web site and watching closely as the pictures flow by:
>
> http://cirrusaircraft.com/
>
> They are definitely placed well below a forward extended wing chord lin
e.
>
> Remember that they are supposed to do their job at higher angles of
attack.
>
>
> 2) "......... solve the problem ......." and
> "........ a perfect solution
> ........ "
>
> There are two separate, but somewhat interrelated problems, as far as I
> can
> tell, that
> don't lend themselves to just one solution:
>
> A) Inadequate pitch authority from a too small elevator -- to be solved
or
> improved by making the elevator larger and / or vortex generators on th
e
> lower side of the horizontal stabilizer.
>
> B) An intermittent burble flowing back to the horizontal tail surfaces
from
> the pinched in wing to fuselage juncture. To be solved by a larger radi
us
> juncture or vortex generators mounted on the fuselage.
OC:Just subjectively ,are you encouraged with your attempts so far with t
he large Vortex generator?
&bsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
===
Message 6
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6/30/2010
Hello Mark, To clarify:
1) Now I fly as often as I can -- which is not as often as I used to fly.
2) I used to fly very often, did not crash very often, but did on
occasion -- sometimes with the help of others shooting at me.
3) On those previous occasions when I did crash, my very generous, but
deeply in debt, Uncle Sam would pay all of the expenses so that my finances
were not adversely affected.
4) I have not yet crashed my KIS TR-1, unless you want to count some of my
landings, which I was both able to walk away from and reuse the airplane.
'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."
==============================================
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Kettering" <mantafs@earthlink.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Fuselage Mounted Vortex Generators
> Hi OC,
>
> I am a bit confused. Did you mean to say that it is not too often that
> you don't crash when you fly? This must be very hard on you, the plane
> and your finances...
>
> Mark
>
======================================================
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: bakerocb@cox.net
>>Sent: Jun 30, 2010 10:16 AM
>>To: kis-list@matronics.com, tmclam@comcast.net
>>Subject: KIS-List: Fuselage Mounted Vortex Generators
>>
>>
>>
>>> OC:Just subjectively ,are you encouraged with your attempts so far with
>>> the large Vortex generator?
>>> Ted
>>
>>=================================================================
>>
>>6/30/2010
>>
>>Hello Ted, Every time that I fly (and don't crash -- which has not been
>>too
>>often) I am encouraged.
>>
>>OC
>>
>>PS: Banging my knee against one of the fuselage mounted vortex generators
>>has discouraged me a bit.
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics |
6/30/2010
Hello Larry, Thanks for the book info -- I'll try to check it out through
our local library inter-library lending system.
'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."
===========================================================
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry David" <lgdavid@roadrunner.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics
Julian Bone, as part of his research and testing, came up with a book by
Stinton. Page 171 really told the story about our problem and gave the
formula for the correct wing fairing curve ,, 8 inch radius as I recall.
The title and ISBN are: The Design of the Airplane (9781563475146) by
Stinton, Darrol.
I bought a copy and loaned it to a fellow with a Glassair so he could design
his wing fairing. Julian did some really good work on the low speed
stability problem. Pictures of his plane with the new wing fairing are on
Bob's web site as I recall.
Larry
===================================================
----- Original Message -----
From: bakerocb@cox.net
To: "MATRONICS KIS-LIST" <kis-list@matronics.com>, "Larry David"
<lgdavid@roadrunner.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 7:12:46 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: KIS-List: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics
6/30/2010
Hello Larrry, You wrote:
1) "I wonder if there is a formula for computing the location of the
vortex
generator like there is for
the wing fairing."
What wing fairing formula are you referring to? I suspect that the
location
of the vortex generators on the fuselage sides in front of the wing is
based
on the TLAR formula followed by lots of inflight testing -- that is the
formula that I am using.
2) "It looks like a step. I wonder how many times someone will step on it
by
mistake."
It does have words like "NO STEP" painted on it. Haven't seen any broken
off
stubs yet.
3) "I will be interested in reading the results of your testing."
Please don't hold your breath while waiting. I've made only two or three
flights with them on so far and they have been moved between flights at
least once. Any results will be very subjective since A) I don't have any
means (yarn tufts and video camera) to visually to gather persisting data
and B) I can't consistently land the plane the same way each time I try.
Right now I am involved / distracted by testing some repositioning of my
center stop spring bias pitch trim actuator. There is not enough travel in
the Ray Allen trim motor to handle the entire range of pitch trim needed
so
I was using a bent aluminum tab taped to the elevator to give me enough
nose
down trim at aft CG location conditions. A fellow aviator took exception
to
the lack of elegance to that approach and shamed me into trying again to
solve that lack of pitch trim range with a different approach. (I tried to
convince him that any homebuilt worthy of its name had some (duct) tape on
it some place, but he wasn't buying that.) My initial repositioning
attempt
flown yesterday was not successful.
'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort
to
gather and understand knowledge."
PS: There is a third solution to the intermittent burble flowing back to
the
horizontal tail surfaces from the pinched in wing to fuselage juncture
that I failed to mention in
the email that you quoted from below. That solution is to carry a bit of
engine power above idle. My attempts to use that technique have always
resulted in excess float in ground effect down the runway after the
landing
flare.
========================================================
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry David" <lgdavid@roadrunner.com>
To: <bakerocb@cox.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 12:14 AM
Subject: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics
OC, I see it clearer now from the cirrus pictures. I wonder if there is a
formula for computing the location of the vortex generator like there is
for
the wing fairing. It looks like a step. I wonder how many times someone
will step on it by mistake. :-) I will be interested in reading the
results of your testing. Larry
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