---------------------------------------------------------- KIS-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/30/10: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:13 AM - Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics () 2. 06:51 AM - Re: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics (tmclam@comcast.net) 3. 07:44 AM - Fuselage Mounted Vortex Generators () 4. 08:02 AM - Re: Fuselage Mounted Vortex Generators (Mark Kettering) 5. 10:44 AM - Re: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics (Larry David) 6. 01:13 PM - Crashing Often? () 7. 01:23 PM - Re: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:13:44 AM PST US From: Subject: KIS-List: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics 6/30/2010 Hello Larrry, You wrote: 1) "I wonder if there is a formula for computing the location of the vortex generator like there is for the wing fairing." What wing fairing formula are you referring to? I suspect that the location of the vortex generators on the fuselage sides in front of the wing is based on the TLAR formula followed by lots of inflight testing -- that is the formula that I am using. 2) "It looks like a step. I wonder how many times someone will step on it by mistake." It does have words like "NO STEP" painted on it. Haven't seen any broken off stubs yet. 3) "I will be interested in reading the results of your testing." Please don't hold your breath while waiting. I've made only two or three flights with them on so far and they have been moved between flights at least once. Any results will be very subjective since A) I don't have any means (yarn tufts and video camera) to visually to gather persisting data and B) I can't consistently land the plane the same way each time I try. Right now I am involved / distracted by testing some repositioning of my center stop spring bias pitch trim actuator. There is not enough travel in the Ray Allen trim motor to handle the entire range of pitch trim needed so I was using a bent aluminum tab taped to the elevator to give me enough nose down trim at aft CG location conditions. A fellow aviator took exception to the lack of elegance to that approach and shamed me into trying again to solve that lack of pitch trim range with a different approach. (I tried to convince him that any homebuilt worthy of its name had some (duct) tape on it some place, but he wasn't buying that.) My initial repositioning attempt flown yesterday was not successful. 'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge." PS: There is a third solution to the intermittent burble flowing back to the horizontal tail surfaces from the pinched in wing to fuselage juncture that I failed to mention in the email that you quoted from below. That solution is to carry a bit of engine power above idle. My attempts to use that technique have always resulted in excess float in ground effect down the runway after the landing flare. ===================================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry David" Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 12:14 AM Subject: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics OC, I see it clearer now from the cirrus pictures. I wonder if there is a formula for computing the location of the vortex generator like there is for the wing fairing. It looks like a step. I wonder how many times someone will step on it by mistake. :-) I will be interested in reading the results of your testing. Larry ===================================================== On 6/22/2010 4:44:02 AM, bakerocb@cox.net wrote: > 6/22/2010 > > Hello Larry, You wrote: > > 1) > "With that information, I am guessing that would be placed them about > four inches in front of the wing and a little above the extended chord line, > right?" > > You can see the placement of these vortex generators on Cirrus airplanes > by > going to this web site and watching closely as the pictures flow by: > > http://cirrusaircraft.com/ > > They are definitely placed well below a forward extended wing chord line. > > Remember that they are supposed to do their job at higher angles of attack. > > > 2) "......... solve the problem ......." and > "........ a perfect solution > ........ " > > There are two separate, but somewhat interrelated problems, as far as I > can > tell, that > don't lend themselves to just one solution: > > A) Inadequate pitch authority from a too small elevator -- to be solved or > improved by making the elevator larger and / or vortex generators on the > lower side of the horizontal stabilizer. > > B) An intermittent burble flowing back to the horizontal tail surfaces from > the pinched in wing to fuselage juncture. To be solved by a larger radius > juncture or vortex generators mounted on the fuselage. > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:42 AM PST US From: tmclam@comcast.net Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics ----- Original Message ----- From: bakerocb@cox.net Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 7:12:46 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: KIS-List: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics 6/30/2010 Hello Larrry, You wrote: 1) "I wonder if there is a formula for computing the location of the vortex generator like there is for the wing fairing." What wing fairing formula are you referring to? I suspect that the location of the vortex generators on the fuselage sides in front of the wing is based on the TLAR formula followed by lots of inflight testing -- that is the formula that I am using. 2) "It looks like a step. I wonder how many times someone will step on it by mistake." It does have words like "NO STEP" painted on it. Haven't seen any broken off stubs yet. 3) "I will be interested in reading the results of your testing." Please don't hold your breath while waiting. I've made only two or three flights with them on so far and they have been moved between flights at least once. Any results will be very subjective since A) I don't have any means (yarn tufts and video camera) to visually to gather persisting data and B) I can't consistently land the plane the same way each time I try. Right now I am involved / distracted by testing some repositioning of my center stop spring bias pitch trim actuator. There is not enough travel in the Ray Allen trim motor to handle the entire range of pitch trim needed so I was using a bent aluminum tab taped to the elevator to give me enough nose down trim at aft CG location conditions. A fellow aviator took exception to the lack of elegance to that approach and shamed me into trying again to solve that lack of pitch trim range with a different approach. (I tried to convince him that any homebuilt worthy of its name had some (duct) tape on it some place, but he wasn't buying that.) My initial repositioning attempt flown yesterday was not successful. 'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge." PS: There is a third solution to the intermittent burble flowing back to the horizontal tail surfaces from the pinched in wing to fuselage juncture that I failed to mention in the email that you quoted from below. That solution is to carry a bit of engine power above idle. My attempts to use that technique have always resulted in excess float in ground effect down the runway after the landing flare. ====================================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry David" Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 12:14 AM Subject: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics OC, I see it clearer now from the cirrus pictures. I wonder if there is a formula for computing the location of the vortex generator like there is for the wing fairing. It looks like a step. I wonder how many times someone will step on it by mistake. :-) I will be interested in reading the results of your testing. Larry ====================================================== On 6/22/2010 4:44:02 AM, bakerocb@cox.net wrote: > 6/22/2010 > > Hello Larry, You wrote: > > 1) > "With that information, I am guessing that would be placed them about > four inches in front of the wing and a little above the extended chord line, > right?" > > You can see the placement of these vortex generators on Cirrus airplanes > by > going to this web site and watching closely as the pictures flow by: > > http://cirrusaircraft.com/ > > They are definitely placed well below a forward extended wing chord line. > > Remember that they are supposed to do their job at higher angles of attack. > > > 2) "......... solve the problem ......." and > "........ a perfect solution > ........ " > > There are two separate, but somewhat interrelated problems, as far as I > can > tell, that > don't lend themselves to just one solution: > > A) Inadequate pitch authority from a too small elevator -- to be solved or > improved by making the elevator larger and / or vortex generators on the > lower side of the horizontal stabilizer. > > B) An intermittent burble flowing back to the horizontal tail surfaces from > the pinched in wing to fuselage juncture. To be solved by a larger radius > juncture or vortex generators mounted on the fuselage. OC:Just subjectively ,are you encouraged with your attempts so far with the large Vortex generator? Ted ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:06 AM PST US From: Subject: KIS-List: Fuselage Mounted Vortex Generators > OC:Just subjectively ,are you encouraged with your attempts so far with > the large Vortex generator? > Ted ================================================================= 6/30/2010 Hello Ted, Every time that I fly (and don't crash -- which has not been too often) I am encouraged. OC PS: Banging my knee against one of the fuselage mounted vortex generators has discouraged me a bit. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:35 AM PST US From: Mark Kettering Subject: Re: KIS-List: Fuselage Mounted Vortex Generators Hi OC, I am a bit confused. Did you mean to say that it is not too often that you don't crash when you fly? This must be very hard on you, the plane and your finances... Mark -----Original Message----- >From: bakerocb@cox.net >Sent: Jun 30, 2010 10:16 AM >To: kis-list@matronics.com, tmclam@comcast.net >Subject: KIS-List: Fuselage Mounted Vortex Generators > > > >> OC:Just subjectively ,are you encouraged with your attempts so far with >> the large Vortex generator? >> Ted > >================================================================= > >6/30/2010 > >Hello Ted, Every time that I fly (and don't crash -- which has not been too >often) I am encouraged. > >OC > >PS: Banging my knee against one of the fuselage mounted vortex generators >has discouraged me a bit. > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:44:09 AM PST US From: "Larry David" Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics Julian Bone, as part of his research and testing, came up with a book by St inton. Page 171 really told the story about our problem and gave the formu la for the correct wing fairing curve ,, 8 inch radius as I recall. The ti tle and ISBN are: The Design of the Airplane (9781563475146) by Stinton, Da rrol. I bought a copy and loaned it to a fellow with a Glassair so he could desig n his wing fairing. Julian did some really good work on the low speed stabi lity problem. Pictures of his plane with the new wing fairing are on Bob's web site as I recall. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: tmclam@comcast.net To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 6:44 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics ----- Original Message ----- From: bakerocb@cox.net To: "MATRONICS KIS-LIST" , "Larry David" Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 7:12:46 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: KIS-List: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics 6/30/2010 Hello Larrry, You wrote: 1) "I wonder if there is a formula for computing the location of the vort ex generator like there is for the wing fairing." What wing fairing formula are you referring to? I suspect that the locati on of the vortex generators on the fuselage sides in front of the wing is ba sed on the TLAR formula followed by lots of inflight testing -- that is the formula that I am using. 2) "It looks like a step. I wonder how many times someone will step on it by mistake." It does have words like "NO STEP" painted on it. Haven't seen any broken off stubs yet. 3) "I will be interested in reading the results of your testing." Please don't hold your breath while waiting. I've made only two or three flights with them on so far and they have been moved between flights at least once. Any results will be very subjective since A) I don't have any means (yarn tufts and video camera) to visually to gather persisting data and B) I can't consistently land the plane the same way each time I try. Right now I am involved / distracted by testing some repositioning of my center stop spring bias pitch trim actuator. There is not enough travel i n the Ray Allen trim motor to handle the entire range of pitch trim needed so I was using a bent aluminum tab taped to the elevator to give me enough n ose down trim at aft CG location conditions. A fellow aviator took exception to the lack of elegance to that approach and shamed me into trying again to solve that lack of pitch trim range with a different approach. (I tried t o convince him that any homebuilt worthy of its name had some (duct) tape o n it some place, but he wasn't buying that.) My initial repositioning attem pt flown yesterday was not successful. 'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge." PS: There is a third solution to the intermittent burble flowing back to the horizontal tail surfaces from the pinched in wing to fuselage juncture that I failed to mention in the email that you quoted from below. That solution is to carry a bit of engine power above idle. My attempts to use that technique have always resulted in excess float in ground effect down the runway after the landi ng flare. === ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry David" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 12:14 AM Subject: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics OC, I see it clearer now from the cirrus pictures. I wonder if there is a formula for computing the location of the vortex generator like there is for the wing fairing. It looks like a step. I wonder how many times someone will step on it by mistake. :-) I will be interested in reading the results of your testing. Larry === On 6/22/2010 4:44:02 AM, bakerocb@cox.net wrote: > 6/22/2010 > > Hello Larry, You wrote: > > 1) > "With that information, I am guessing that would be placed them about > four inches in front of the wing and a little above the extended chord line, > right?" > > You can see the placement of these vortex generators on Cirrus airplane s > by > going to this web site and watching closely as the pictures flow by: > > http://cirrusaircraft.com/ > > They are definitely placed well below a forward extended wing chord lin e. > > Remember that they are supposed to do their job at higher angles of attack. > > > 2) "......... solve the problem ......." and > "........ a perfect solution > ........ " > > There are two separate, but somewhat interrelated problems, as far as I > can > tell, that > don't lend themselves to just one solution: > > A) Inadequate pitch authority from a too small elevator -- to be solved or > improved by making the elevator larger and / or vortex generators on th e > lower side of the horizontal stabilizer. > > B) An intermittent burble flowing back to the horizontal tail surfaces from > the pinched in wing to fuselage juncture. To be solved by a larger radi us > juncture or vortex generators mounted on the fuselage. OC:Just subjectively ,are you encouraged with your attempts so far with t he large Vortex generator? &bsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - === ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:13:48 PM PST US From: Subject: KIS-List: Crashing Often? 6/30/2010 Hello Mark, To clarify: 1) Now I fly as often as I can -- which is not as often as I used to fly. 2) I used to fly very often, did not crash very often, but did on occasion -- sometimes with the help of others shooting at me. 3) On those previous occasions when I did crash, my very generous, but deeply in debt, Uncle Sam would pay all of the expenses so that my finances were not adversely affected. 4) I have not yet crashed my KIS TR-1, unless you want to count some of my landings, which I was both able to walk away from and reuse the airplane. 'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge." ============================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Kettering" Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:00 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Fuselage Mounted Vortex Generators > Hi OC, > > I am a bit confused. Did you mean to say that it is not too often that > you don't crash when you fly? This must be very hard on you, the plane > and your finances... > > Mark > ====================================================== > > -----Original Message----- >>From: bakerocb@cox.net >>Sent: Jun 30, 2010 10:16 AM >>To: kis-list@matronics.com, tmclam@comcast.net >>Subject: KIS-List: Fuselage Mounted Vortex Generators >> >> >> >>> OC:Just subjectively ,are you encouraged with your attempts so far with >>> the large Vortex generator? >>> Ted >> >>================================================================= >> >>6/30/2010 >> >>Hello Ted, Every time that I fly (and don't crash -- which has not been >>too >>often) I am encouraged. >> >>OC >> >>PS: Banging my knee against one of the fuselage mounted vortex generators >>has discouraged me a bit. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:23:44 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics 6/30/2010 Hello Larry, Thanks for the book info -- I'll try to check it out through our local library inter-library lending system. 'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge." =========================================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry David" Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 1:40 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics Julian Bone, as part of his research and testing, came up with a book by Stinton. Page 171 really told the story about our problem and gave the formula for the correct wing fairing curve ,, 8 inch radius as I recall. The title and ISBN are: The Design of the Airplane (9781563475146) by Stinton, Darrol. I bought a copy and loaned it to a fellow with a Glassair so he could design his wing fairing. Julian did some really good work on the low speed stability problem. Pictures of his plane with the new wing fairing are on Bob's web site as I recall. Larry =================================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: bakerocb@cox.net To: "MATRONICS KIS-LIST" , "Larry David" Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 7:12:46 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: KIS-List: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics 6/30/2010 Hello Larrry, You wrote: 1) "I wonder if there is a formula for computing the location of the vortex generator like there is for the wing fairing." What wing fairing formula are you referring to? I suspect that the location of the vortex generators on the fuselage sides in front of the wing is based on the TLAR formula followed by lots of inflight testing -- that is the formula that I am using. 2) "It looks like a step. I wonder how many times someone will step on it by mistake." It does have words like "NO STEP" painted on it. Haven't seen any broken off stubs yet. 3) "I will be interested in reading the results of your testing." Please don't hold your breath while waiting. I've made only two or three flights with them on so far and they have been moved between flights at least once. Any results will be very subjective since A) I don't have any means (yarn tufts and video camera) to visually to gather persisting data and B) I can't consistently land the plane the same way each time I try. Right now I am involved / distracted by testing some repositioning of my center stop spring bias pitch trim actuator. There is not enough travel in the Ray Allen trim motor to handle the entire range of pitch trim needed so I was using a bent aluminum tab taped to the elevator to give me enough nose down trim at aft CG location conditions. A fellow aviator took exception to the lack of elegance to that approach and shamed me into trying again to solve that lack of pitch trim range with a different approach. (I tried to convince him that any homebuilt worthy of its name had some (duct) tape on it some place, but he wasn't buying that.) My initial repositioning attempt flown yesterday was not successful. 'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge." PS: There is a third solution to the intermittent burble flowing back to the horizontal tail surfaces from the pinched in wing to fuselage juncture that I failed to mention in the email that you quoted from below. That solution is to carry a bit of engine power above idle. My attempts to use that technique have always resulted in excess float in ground effect down the runway after the landing flare. ======================================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry David" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 12:14 AM Subject: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics OC, I see it clearer now from the cirrus pictures. I wonder if there is a formula for computing the location of the vortex generator like there is for the wing fairing. It looks like a step. I wonder how many times someone will step on it by mistake. :-) I will be interested in reading the results of your testing. Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kis-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/KIS-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kis-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kis-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.