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1. 05:42 AM - Re: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics (Richard Trickel)
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Subject: | Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics |
Mark/OC
Many years ago I had Dave Morris do some flight test on my plane for possib
le cert ideas.- he did a lot of testing and one included long tuffs at th
e wing root and outboard about 2 feet.- These were video taped and showed
that in ground affect the tuffs actually were just rising over the stab.
-- This only happened in ground affet and not in stall at altitude.-w
e felt that part of the problem was the fact that the wing and horiz were a
t different angles than the production planes so this was-causing the pro
blem.- Though never tested the same way it seemed that the newer taildrag
er we built was much better in ground affect.- Now that I have a little m
ore experience and about two MM more knowledge I think the best way to adju
st this problem is to move the tail up out of the wings flow. looks like th
ree inches would have been perfect.-Sounds a little drastic and not reall
y necessary but if I had it to do over kind of thing. The airplane is not i
n
anyway dangerous the way it is so it is something that doesn=B4t really ne
ed to be changed.- The- added fairings of Julien helped and we will fin
d out about the Vortex generators soon I hope.- I got to admit that this
is the best parts of this forum.- The information provided here is invalu
able.- Keep it up and I know there are a few others out there with some i
deas so lets get involved
Rich
--- On Thu, 7/1/10, Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net> wrote:
From: Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics
Hi OC,
Good to hear you are not crashing that often anymore.
I very much like Stinton's book but it is a bit empirical at times with not
a lot of data to back it up.- In any case here is page 171.- With a qu
ick scan I did not see more on this subject.- I would still check out the
book if you can find it.
I am not convinced there is an elevator problem being caused by separation
in this area with my aircraft.- I have never had a problem with elevator
authority up to stall both in and out of ground effect.- I have not seen
the video and am waiting on getting it from Scott.- The one picture I hav
e seen did show some turbulence (but it would be guessing to call it separa
tion) at the aft wing root.- But the flow over the tail and aft part of t
he fuselage still looks good.- Maybe this turbulence is really just the v
ery start of the stall?- If that is the case the small root faring may st
art the stall.- If so maybe this is not all a bad thing since at the root
is the best place for the stall to start.
Of course I do want to reduce drag since I NEED to be faster than Scott.
Mark Kettering
-----Original Message-----
>From: bakerocb@cox.net
>Sent: Jun 30, 2010 4:18 PM
>To: kis-list@matronics.com, lgdavid@roadrunner.com
>Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics
>
>
>6/30/2010
>
>Hello Larry, Thanks for the book info -- I'll try to check it out through
>our local library inter-library lending system.
>
>'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort t
o
>gather and understand knowledge."
>
>========================
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Larry David" <lgdavid@roadrunner.com>
>To: <kis-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 1:40 PM
>Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics
>
>
>Julian Bone, as part of his research and testing, came up with a book by
>Stinton.- Page 171 really told the story about our problem and gave the
>formula for the correct wing fairing curve ,, 8 inch radius as I recall.
>The title and ISBN are: The Design of the Airplane (9781563475146) by
>Stinton, Darrol.
>
>I bought a copy and loaned it to a fellow with a Glassair so he could desi
gn
>his wing fairing. Julian did some really good work on the low speed
>stability problem.- Pictures of his plane with the new wing fairing are
on
>Bob's web site as I recall.
>
>Larry
>
>========================
==
>
>
>- ----- Original Message -----
>- From: bakerocb@cox.net
>- To: "MATRONICS KIS-LIST" <kis-list@matronics.com>, "Larry David"
><lgdavid@roadrunner.com>
>- Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 7:12:46 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
>- Subject: KIS-List: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics
>
>- 6/30/2010
>
>- Hello Larrry, You wrote:
>
>- 1) "I wonder if there is a formula for computing the location of the
>vortex
>- generator like there is for
>- the wing fairing."
>
>- What wing fairing formula are you referring to? I suspect that the
>location
>- of the vortex generators on the fuselage sides in front of the wing is
>based
>- on the TLAR formula followed by lots of inflight testing -- that is th
e
>- formula that I am using.
>
>- 2) "It looks like a step. I wonder how many times someone will step on
it
>by
>- mistake."
>
>- It does have words like "NO STEP" painted on it. Haven't seen any brok
en
>off
>- stubs yet.
>
>- 3) "I will be interested in reading the results of your testing."
>
>- Please don't hold your breath while waiting. I've made only two or thr
ee
>- flights with them on so far and they have been moved between flights a
t
>- least once. Any results will be very subjective since A) I don't have
any
>- means (yarn tufts and video camera) to visually to gather persisting d
ata
>- and B) I can't consistently land the plane the same way each time I tr
y.
>
>- Right now I am involved / distracted by testing some repositioning of
my
>- center stop spring bias pitch trim actuator. There is not enough trave
l in
>- the Ray Allen trim motor to handle the entire range of pitch trim need
ed
>so
>- I was using a bent aluminum tab taped to the elevator to give me enoug
h
>nose
>- down trim at aft CG location conditions. A fellow aviator took excepti
on
>to
>- the lack of elegance to that approach and shamed me into trying again
to
>- solve that lack of pitch trim range with a different approach. (I trie
d to
>- convince him that any homebuilt worthy of its name had some (duct) tap
e on
>- it some place, but he wasn't buying that.) My initial repositioning
>attempt
>- flown yesterday was not successful.
>
>- 'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effo
rt
>to
>- gather and understand knowledge."
>
>- PS: There is a third solution to the intermittent burble flowing back
to
>the
>- horizontal tail surfaces from the pinched in wing to fuselage juncture
>that I failed to mention in
>- the email that you quoted from below. That solution is to carry a bit
of
>- engine power above idle. My attempts to use that technique have always
>- resulted in excess float in ground effect down the runway after the
>landing
>- flare.
>
>- =======================
========
>- ----- Original Message -----
>- From: "Larry David" <lgdavid@roadrunner.com>
>- To: <bakerocb@cox.net>
>- Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 12:14 AM
>- Subject: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics
>
>
>- OC, I see it clearer now from the cirrus pictures.- I wonder if ther
e is a
>- formula for computing the location of the vortex generator like there
is
>for
>- the wing fairing.- It looks like a step. I wonder how many times som
eone
>- will step on it by mistake.- :-)- I will be interested in reading
the
>- results of your testing.- Larry
>
>
=0A=0A=0A
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