---------------------------------------------------------- KIS-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 09/30/10: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:12 AM - Brake Lines/tubing (Mike Pienaar) 2. 09:12 AM - Throttle controls (Mike Pienaar) 3. 10:02 AM - Re: Throttle controls (Galin Hernandez) 4. 07:15 PM - Re: Brake Lines/tubing (Mark Kettering) 5. 07:17 PM - Re: Brake Lines/tubing (Scott Stearns) 6. 07:24 PM - Brake Lines/tubing () 7. 07:24 PM - Re: Brake Lines/tubing (Robert Reed) 8. 07:44 PM - Re: Throttle controls (kent pyle) 9. 07:50 PM - Re: Brake Lines/tubing (kent pyle) 10. 08:14 PM - Re: Throttle controls (Robert Reed) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:24 AM PST US From: "Mike Pienaar" Subject: KIS-List: Brake Lines/tubing Hi All, What type of tubing should I use for my brakes? I was thinking of flexible lines from the master cylinders to a manifold and then solid metal lines to a point 12 to 18 inches from the wheel and then flexible lines to the wheel again. Can I use aluminum tubing and if yes what grade. Has anybody used part No 11-03854 (link below) from aircraft spruce to secure wires and tubing? What adhesive would you suggest and would double sided tape work. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/cabletiemounts.php Thanks Mike ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:46 AM PST US From: "Mike Pienaar" Subject: KIS-List: Throttle controls Hi All, Should I use push pull controls or install a Quadrant Thanks Mike ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:02:59 AM PST US From: Galin Hernandez Subject: Re: KIS-List: Throttle controls I prefer a quadrant, but my airplane has push controls. To me it is personal preference. Galin N819PR On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Mike Pienaar wrote: > Hi All, > > Should I use push pull controls or install a Quadrant > > Thanks > > Mike > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:54 PM PST US From: Mark Kettering Subject: Re: KIS-List: Brake Lines/tubing Hi Mike, Many people use 3003 aluminum tube for brake lines. I have used this on boat trailers all the way to the calipers. To allow for the suspension movement I just put an about 1 foot diameter loop so that suspension movement moves the loop like a clock spring. Since our suspension is the aluminum landing gear leg I do not think any flexible tubing is needed at the gear leg so the aluminum tube can go directly to the caliper. I think you will need flexible tube at the master cylinders. I have never bought the cable tie mounts from ACS. Their price seems very expensive! They have something that looks the same at Lowes and Home Depot. Those I have used and they hold and work very well for up to about 5 to 10 years. Then they fall off. They come with their own double sticky foam tape already attached. Of course if you add a screw or two then they do not fall off. They are quick to use but I think there are longer lasting methods. For example a small patch of fiberglass with a fold sticking up forming a small tab. Once cured drill a hole in the tab and cable tie using the hole. You can also drill two small holes next the each other only through the inner skin. Then push the cable tie in one hole and out the other. If need you can add a doubler (small patch of fiberglass) before you drill the holes. You can also back fill the hole with silicone if you are worried about water. Mark -----Original Message----- From: Mike Pienaar Sent: Sep 30, 2010 12:10 PM Subject: KIS-List: Brake Lines/tubing Hi All, What type of tubing should I use for my brakes? I was thinking of flexible lines from the master cylinders to a manifold and then solid metal lines to a point 12 to 18 inches from the wheel and then flexible lines to the wheel again. Can I use aluminum tubing and if yes what grade. Has anybody used part No 11-03854 (link below) from aircraft spruce to secure wires and tubing? What adhesive would you suggest and would double sided tape work. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/cabletiemounts.php Thanks Mike ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:24 PM PST US From: Scott Stearns Subject: Re: KIS-List: Brake Lines/tubing Hi Mike, - Those adhesive backed things are a waste of time.- I have a bag of 100 if you want them.- - For a threaded hardpoint I'd use these and glass them in...- I must have 50 of them in my airplane. - http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/ezpoint.php - I used 5052-0 AL 1/4"-tubing for the brake lines.- It's stong enough to handle the pressure but soft enough so you can work it easily.- You can use it all the way from the interior floor to the brake caliper since there is little relative movement.- Make sure to inspect it well at annuals fo r cracks though. - I used Aeroquip 303 hose from the interior floor to the brake clyinders.- You have buy the mandrel tool to make the hoses, but it's not hard once yo u see how it works.- Any A&P book will have instructions or they are onli ne somewhere I'm sure.- Also once you learn to make real aircraft hoses y ou can make your own-oil and fuel hoses for the engine too.- I also mou nted the brake fluid resevior on the back of the firewall higher than the b rake cylinders.- It's easy to see with a flashlight and you normally-do n't need to touch it since fluid is normally added at the caliper. - Please don't use any plastic tubing for the brakes.- - Cheers, Scott --- On Thu, 9/30/10, Mike Pienaar wrote: From: Mike Pienaar Subject: KIS-List: Brake Lines/tubing Hi All, - What type of tubing should I use for my brakes? I was thinking of flexible lines from the master cylinders to a manifold and then solid metal lines to a point 12 to 18 inches from the wheel and then flexible lines to the whee l again. Can I use aluminum tubing and if yes what grade. - Has anybody used part No 11-03854 (link below) from aircraft spruce to secu re wires and tubing? What adhesive would you suggest and would double sided tape work. - http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/cabletiemounts.php - Thanks - Mike- =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:04 PM PST US From: Subject: KIS-List: Brake Lines/tubing 9/30/2010 Hello Mike, You wrote: 1) "What type of tubing should I use for my brakes?" Back in 1999 I wrote a doctoral thesis on this subject in the form of some responses to other's postings (usually Ted's). Copied below from the archives for you to wade through if you like is a copy of that thesis which was reposted on 12/01/00. Please let me know if you have any questions. 2) "Has anybody used part No 11-03854 (link below) from aircraft spruce to secure wires and tubing? What adhesive would you suggest and would double sided tape work." Definitely don't use double sided tape -- with heat and the passage of time it will fail. I recommend that you do a google search and locate a source of screw fastening cable tie mounts with no intstalled mounting adhesive -- there are many available from many different sources such as this: http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=9110250 Then to fasten these cable tie mounts in place I recommend that you rough up the nylon base then glue them into position with epoxy gel cement. Here is a good epoxy to use: http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=338 'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge." ================================================ Match: #128Message: #11042From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.comDate: Dec 01, 2000Subject: Re: e: Brakeline transition-alu to plastic? 12/01/00 Hello Ted, This subject was chewed over a bit a while back, both from a performance and material view point. I'll repeat some of those postings on the chance that they may be of some help to you. OC Subj: Brake Plumbing 10/6/99 In a message dated 10/03/1999 8:22:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tmclam(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us writes: > I noticed in the Aircraft Spruce cat. that the supplied Polyflo brake tubing > and Nylo Seal tubing are compatable with 3/16 OD Polyflo brass > fittings. > That is that if 3/16 tubing was supplied instead of 1/4 in. OD ,Nylo Seal and > Nylo Seal has a much higher useful temperature range.Short lengths of Nylo > Seal right at the brake assemblies may solve the high heat failure > problem. > Polyflo gets soft at 107 Deg.F > Nylo Seal gets soft at 300 " " and has a much higher burst > pressure. Hello Ted, Thanks for initiating this subject. I'd like to go on and write a bit on the subject of brake plumbing. This may get a bit long so please bear with me. 1) Plastic Tubing Alone All the Way. There are probably four issues here of some interest. They are a) softening / melting of the tube in the vicinity of the brake assembly from over heated brakes. b) expansion of the tubing under pressure which could reduce braking effectiveness. c) burst pressure of the tubing. d) integrity of compression connections. There are other issues such as durability, size / flexibilty / ease of routing, cost, availability, ease of installation re connectivity, and so forth, but we'll lay those aside for now except as they affect the four listed. 1a) Softening / melting: If you are going to use plastic tubing alone all the way you definitely want something at least as good as NYLO-SEAL (33-NSR) or Parker PARFLEX (NNR-3-039) next to your brake assemblies. You can read some of the specs on NYLO-SEAL on page 116 of the 1999-2000 Aircraft Spruce catalog. Some selected specs on PARFLEX (NNR-3-039) from my Parker catalog are: OPERATING TEMP -60 degF to +200 degF, OD 3/16 in, WALL THICK 0.039 in, WORK PRESSURE 625 psi, BURST PRESSURE 2500 psi. These two products have comparable performance because they are both made of nylon 11. Aircraft Spruce notes that NYLO-SEAL is satisfactory for continuous operation up to 180 degF then becomes embrittled above this temp. 1b) Expansion Under Pressure. If you are concerned about this, then cross section of the tube / wall thickness becomes of interest. The very smallest ID with the very largest OD will give the best performance in this regard, but there are some obvious limits. In the interest of some brevity I won't replicate a whole bunch of data here because as you'll see shortly there are some other overriding factors. It appears that a happy medium is a 3/16 inch OD tube with a 0.039 inch thick wall (Part numbers 33-NSR for NYLO-SEAL and NNR-3-039 for PARFLEX). 1c) Burst Pressure. Sort of academic for unmelted, well connected tubing. Suggested working pressure is 1/4 of burst pressure. If you pick the right size tubing you can get 625 psi working pressure and a burst pressure of 2500 psi. The tubing part numbers above will give you that. If you want the same burst pressure performance in a 1/4 in OD tube you need to go up to a 0.050 wall thickness (Part numbers 44-NSR and NNR-4-050). 1d) Compression Connection Integrity. First off a quote from Aircraft Spruce "1/4in and 3/8in tubing is not recommended for brake lines; not enough working pressure to maintain fitting connection to hose". I'm not sure that I either understand or believe what they are trying to say, but I do believe that connection integrity is a very high priority. How do you achieve it? It is very frustrating because there are more fitting bodies, sleeves, inserts and partial bits of information floating around on these items than one can sort out. I have two different brands of brass POLY-FLO type compression fittings here for 1/4 in OD tube and both have integral plastic sleeves (one brand white, one brand black) inside the compression nut. One wonders how these plastic sleeves will perform next to an over heated brake assembly. Both brands of these brass fitting bodies for 1/4 in OD plastic tubing have integral tube inserts or nipples. By that I mean that there is a brass tube built into the fitting body that the plastic tubing is slipped over during assembly as opposed to using a separate short brass bell mouthed tube that is inserted into the end of the plastic tube prior to inserting the end of the plastic tubing into the fitting body. But, depending upon the thickness of the plastic tube wall, that integral brass nipple built into the fitting body can fit the ID of the plastic tubing very loosely (it does for 1/4 in OD, 0.035 in thick wall tubing), probably because the nipple OD was made to fit plastic tubing with the thickest tubing wall likely to be used. This looseness can adversely affect the integrity of the connection because the compression sleeve cannot squeeze the plastic tube wall tightly enough against the integral brass nipple to keep the connection from coming apart under a pull or high pressure. That may be what Aircraft Spruce is trying to say in that quote above. I have a report here that says that the POLY-FLO type brass fittings for the 1/8 in and 3/16 in OD size plastic tubing do not include that integral nipple. So what is the solution? One can use a brass fitting body with no integral nipple so that a combination of a separate, properly sized brass tube insert inside the end of the plastic tube, and a compression sleeve made of brass, could be used. Such a combination, for example, would be a Parker STRAIGHT BRASS MALE CONNECTOR 68C-3-2, with a BRASS SLEEVE 60C-3, and BRASS 63PT-3-40 INSERT. This combination would allow you to connect your 3/16 OD plastic tubing with a 0.039 thick wall into a 1/8 in National Pipe Thread (tapered) female opening in your brake assembly. Where do you obtain such Parker hardware? I'm looking, but not too hard because there is an alternate route that one may take. 2) Metal Reenforced Flexible Tubing. Earl's (310-609-1602) makes a pre-assembled Teflon hose with a stainless braided outer cover called SPEED FLEX. It is promoted for automobile use because of reduced brake line expansion under pressure. It has a continuous operating temperature range of -65degF to +450degF. It has a maximum operation pressure of 2,000 psi and each hose is tested to 4,000 psi. It can be obtained with straight AN 3 female swivel connections on both ends and comes in a variety of lengths from 10 to 36 inches. Prices in my 1996 CHASSIS SHOP catalog range from $9 to $16 US. (800-530-9494) One could connect to the 1/8 in NPT female opening in the brake assembly using an AN 823-3D ELBOW, FLARED TUBE AND PIPE THREAD, 45deg, aluminum fitting. On the other end of the SPEED FLEX tubing one could convert back to 3/16 in OD nylon tubing by using a combination of an AN 816-3D NIPPLE, FLARED TUBE AND PIPE THREAD aluminum fitting and a brass POLY-FLO FEMALE CONNECTOR 266P-03x02. Or the AN 816-3D nipple and a PARKER FEMALE CONNECTOR 66C-3-2 with the previously mentioned brass sleeve and insert. There are trade offs in this arena in weight, cost, performance, appearance, and installation ease. I believe each builder should make his own decisions based on the best information available to him. I encourage others to contribute to this discussion in order to make better information available to all of us. 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/? Subj: Re: 3/16 Brake Lines/OC's memo 10/24/99 In a message dated 10/20/1999 1:07:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tmclam(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us writes: Cat. > I have come to the conclusion that the only safe and > proven{Rutan-Glassair] > plastic brake scheme is to use 3/16 Nylaflow tubing,3/16 Polyflow brass > fittings,and2030-4 Weatherhead Tube inserts....... Hello Ted, I thank you for your input, but I'm a little puzzled by it. I'm not sure why you are choosing NYLAFLOW tubing (which is made from type 6/6 nylon) instead of NYLO-SEAL or PARFLEX (which is made from type 11 nylon) and there may be a size compatibility issue in the hardware / tubing that you describe. Let me put down some selected data that I have here from S & L Plastics (the makers of NYLAFLOW), the Aircraft Spruce catalog, and the Parker PARFLEX catalog: 1) 3/16 inch OD NYLAFLOW tubing comes in Type H (heavy wall), part number 4TD2-04420, ID 0.111 inch, wall thickness 0.038 inch, burst pressure 2,500 psi and Type T (thin wall), part number 4TD2-54420, ID 0.137 inch, wall thickness 0.025 inch, burst pressure 1,000 psi. 2) The OD of the Weatherhead part number 2030-4 brass tube insert is 1/8 or 0.125 inch. If you are using NYLAFLOW Type H 3/16 inch OD tubing you may be able to force the 0.125 inch OD brass insert into the 0.111 inch ID plastic tubing. (I've also heard of people doing some reaming of the plastic tubing in order to force in a brass tube insert that was a little too large). On the other hand, if you are using NYLAFLOW Type T 3/16 inch OD tubing then the 0.125 inch OD brass insert will be a loose fit in the 0.137 inch ID plastic tubing. 3) The 3/16 inch OD NYLAFLOW tubing listed on page 116 of the 1999-2000 Aircraft Spruce catalog is described as having an ID of 0.138 inch. I assume that means that they are selling the Type T (thin wall) NYLAFLOW tubing (which is also what I got from Wicks a while back when I ordered some 1/4 inch OD tubing for a pitot static system). 4) The suggested temperature range for the NYLAFLOW tubing is -65 to +150 deg F. The suggested temperature range for the NYLO-SEAL and PARFLEX nylon tubing is -60 to +200 deg F. 5) The tubing with the thickest wall will have the least expansion under pressure. 6) The combination that you describe may be entirely satisfactory, but if I were going to go plastic all the way from the brake pedal cylinder to the wheel brake assembly, my inclination would be to go with the 3/16 inch OD tubing that gives me the highest pressure burst rating and the highest operating temperature and search out the fittings and inserts that are compatible with that tubing. 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/? Subj: Re: Brakelines/Fitting Orfice? In a message dated 10/30/1999 10:44:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tmclam(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us writes: > To any Hydraulic Guru > brass fittings for plastic brake lines is the same 1/8 in. dia. hole for > the 3/16 and 1/4 in fittings. > Should the tubing inside dia. match the orfice size for better flow and > less cavitation and possible Bleeding problems?Dumping fluid from a 1/8 > hole to an abrupt larger dia. dose not seem right to me. > > Had to request a reorder of 3/16 Nylaflow from AS because the 20 feet i > received had kinks in it every 4-6 feet.I need two 7-8 ft. runs. > Ted Hello Ted, I sure don't qualify as a hydraulic guru (although I've been called "all wet" a few times) but I'd like to respond to your questions/comments. First with regard to flow. In our aircraft brake systems we are looking at a minimal amount of fluid flow or movement. The brake pucks are just a minute distance away from the discs before brake application (recall that there are no piston retracting springs in the wheel brake assembly) and the cylinder space behind pistons pushing the brake pucks should be full of fluid, so when you step on the brake pedal you should get almost instant equal liquid pressure through out the system. That is why we can get away with using such small inside diameter tubing between the brake pedal cylinder and the wheel brake cylinder. If there is no air in the system and the flexible line does not expand under pressure we are dealing with an almost rigid connection in terms of equal pressure beween the piston at the pedal and the piston at the wheel since the fluid is pretty much incompressible. Notice that I said pressure, not force. The force exerted on the brake pucks is going to be a function of the leverage designed into the brake pedal, the amount of force you are applying to the pedal with your foot, and the relative sizes of the pedal brake cylinder / piston and the wheel brake cylinder / piston. With regard to the hole size in the fitting: You are referring to these fittings as being either 3/16 or 1/4 inch fittings by virtue of the fact that they accept either a 3/16 or 1/4 inch OD flex tube on the compression end of the fitting. But the other end of these fittings are male National Pipe Thread (tapered)** right? And hole sizes in NPT fittings are approximately the diameter of the fitting name. For example a NPT 1/8 inch male fitting will have a hole about 1/8 inch in diameter through it. The outside of the male fitting will of course be tapered, much larger in diameter than 1/8 inch, will have 27 threads per inch, and should thread into a 1/8 inch NPT female opening. By the way, I am not a big fan of using Teflon paste or tape anywhere on the fittings in the fuel or hydraulic systems of our aircraft. Instead I favor something like Sealube (see page 296 of the 1999-2000 ACS catalog) that will both seal and lubricate and never harden. Are you getting the thin wall or the thick wall NYLAFLOW tubing? Thick wall would be superior for a brake system. Thick wall NYLO-SEAL or PARFLEX would be even better. See my earlier post on this subject. 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/? **PS: The complete proper name for this thread is National Pipe and that terminology along with the approximate orifice size almost completely defines the thread (except for some fit criteria) for those people familiar with taps, dies, and threads. But so many lay people have come to grief trying to screw together a National Pipe thread piece of hardware, which is tapered, and a straight threaded piece of hardware that I have taken to emphasizing that the NP thread is in fact a tapered thread and people shouldn't try to force two dissimilar threaded pieces together. ==================================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Pienaar" Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 12:10 PM Subject: KIS-List: Brake Lines/tubing Hi All, What type of tubing should I use for my brakes? I was thinking of flexible lines from the master cylinders to a manifold and then solid metal lines to a point 12 to 18 inches from the wheel and then flexible lines to the wheel again. Can I use aluminum tubing and if yes what grade. Has anybody used part No 11-03854 (link below) from aircraft spruce to secure wires and tubing? What adhesive would you suggest and would double sided tape work. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/cabletiemounts.php Thanks Mike ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:44 PM PST US From: Robert Reed Subject: Re: KIS-List: Brake Lines/tubing Mike,=0A=0AI am using 3/16 braided flex tubing for the entire system.- Yo u could easily use =0Asolid metal lines for the manifold to the bulkhead fi tting for the wheels but I =0Adecided not change the inside diameter by doi ng that.- I used 3/16 flex because =0Ait fit perfectly and very snug in t he grove on the landing gear.- =0A=0A=0ABob Reed=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A__________ ______________________=0AFrom: Mike Pienaar =0ATo: KISBU ILDERS =0ASent: Thu, September 30, 2010 11:10:30 AM =0ASubject: KIS-List: Brake Lines/tubing=0A=0A=0AHi All,=0A-=0AWhat type of tubing should I use for my brakes? I was thinking of flexible lines =0Af rom the master cylinders to a manifold and then solid metal lines to a poin t 12 =0Ato 18 inches from the wheel and then flexible lines to the wheel ag ain. Can I =0Ause aluminum tubing and if yes what grade.=0A-=0AHas anybod y used part No 11-03854 (link below) from aircraft spruce to secure =0Awire s and tubing? What adhesive would you suggest and would double sided tape =0Awork.=0A-=0Ahttp://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/cabletiemoun ====================== =0A ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:13 PM PST US From: "kent pyle" Subject: Re: KIS-List: Throttle controls I used push pull. On other plane is built, using a quadrant, the gas control would creep. Could be it doesn't make a whole lot of difference. Kent ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Pienaar To: KISBUILDERS Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 11:12 AM Subject: KIS-List: Throttle controls Hi All, Should I use push pull controls or install a Quadrant Thanks Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 09/30/10 13:34:00 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:39 PM PST US From: "kent pyle" Subject: Re: KIS-List: Brake Lines/tubing Mike, some of the planes that are steered with the brakes have had the plastic lines melt due to the heat created by the brakes. I used regular brake line from the brake to where the line enters the fuse. Then used flex line on the the brake cylinders. Kent ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Pienaar To: KISBUILDERS Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 11:10 AM Subject: KIS-List: Brake Lines/tubing Hi All, What type of tubing should I use for my brakes? I was thinking of flexible lines from the master cylinders to a manifold and then solid metal lines to a point 12 to 18 inches from the wheel and then flexible lines to the wheel again. Can I use aluminum tubing and if yes what grade. Has anybody used part No 11-03854 (link below) from aircraft spruce to secure wires and tubing? What adhesive would you suggest and would double sided tape work. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/cabletiemounts.php Thanks Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 09/30/10 13:34:00 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:26 PM PST US From: Robert Reed Subject: Re: KIS-List: Throttle controls Mike,=0A=0AI think the best way to determine that is to sit in the plane, d etermine where =0Ayou would prefer to have the controls, if you that choice based on your setup =0Aand then make the determination based on what would be the most comfortable.- =0ARemember you will spend a lot of time with your hands on those controls during =0Amost operations and comfort and ease of use will be important.=0A=0ABob Reed=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____________________ ____________=0AFrom: Mike Pienaar =0ATo: KISBUILDERS =0ASent: Thu, September 30, 2010 11:12:25 AM=0ASubject : KIS-List: Throttle controls=0A=0A=0AHi All,=0A-=0AShould I use push pul ======== =0A ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kis-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/KIS-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kis-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kis-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.