---------------------------------------------------------- KIS-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/19/10: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:35 AM - Re: fuel seepage (Richard Trickel) 2. 09:05 AM - Re: fuel seepage (Scott Stearns) 3. 09:06 AM - Re: fuel seepage (Scott Stearns) 4. 10:39 AM - Re: fuel seepage (Richard Trickel) 5. 10:43 AM - Re: fuel seepage (Richard Trickel) 6. 10:57 AM - Re: fuel seepage (Scott Stearns) 7. 11:00 AM - Re: fuel seepage (Scott Stearns) 8. 04:44 PM - Re: fuel seepage (Larry David) 9. 04:57 PM - Re: fuel seepage (Scott Stearns) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:48 AM PST US From: Richard Trickel Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Scott If the fuel stains are around the aileron screws I think your problem may b e fuel coming out of the cap.-I also had this problem and found that leav ing the tanks a little low solved the problem.- During flight you cannot see the fuel coming out but it does.--Check your fuel caps.- -I dou bt very much that fuel would seep that far through the foam core.- The co re is closed cell so the only way fuel could travel is along the skin/core bond.- Have you tested the tank for air leakage with a monometer.- I wo uld start there and take it step by step. Rich --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns wrote: From: Scott Stearns Subject: KIS-List: fuel seepage My right wing has a lot of small places where fuel is seeping out of the la minate.- For instance some of the screws that hold the aileron on-have blue stains around them.- It's pretty clear that fuel has gotten into the wing skin sandwich panel and is wicking through laminate and foam.- The left wing doesn't have any fuel seeps. - The top right wing skin also has a lot of the weave showing through which m ight be related to the fuel getting to the panel. - I'm a bit surprised since the fuel tanks have two coat of the jeffco fuel s ealer in them.- I played around with some sandwich panel that is the same material as the wing skin (but without fuel sealer)-and fuel soaks throu gh the laminate and through the foam core easily. - Anyone have any thoughts?-- Should I worry or is this common?- - Scott =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:05:11 AM PST US From: Scott Stearns Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Hi Rich, - I have a laminate that is just like the wing laminate.- I poured a pool o f fuel on top of it and it readily soaked thru the laminate and through the foam core.- The carbon was somewhat low resin content and I didn't use g lue sheet in the wing skins. - I also had areas in the wingtip where fuel was seeping out of the wing skin -laminate.- Also some of the areas around the-screws that hold the lo wer wing root fairing on are pretty badly blue stained. - Scott - --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Richard Trickel wrote: From: Richard Trickel Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Scott If the fuel stains are around the aileron screws I think your problem may b e fuel coming out of the cap.-I also had this problem and found that leav ing the tanks a little low solved the problem.- During flight you cannot see the fuel coming out but it does.--Check your fuel caps.- -I dou bt very much that fuel would seep that far through the foam core.- The co re is closed cell so the only way fuel could travel is along the skin/core bond.- Have you tested the tank for air leakage with a monometer.- I wo uld start there and take it step by step. Rich --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns wrote: From: Scott Stearns Subject: KIS-List: fuel seepage My right wing has a lot of small places where fuel is seeping out of the la minate.- For instance some of the screws that hold the aileron on-have blue stains around them.- It's pretty clear that fuel has gotten into the wing skin sandwich panel and is wicking through laminate and foam.- The left wing doesn't have any fuel seeps. - The top right wing skin also has a lot of the weave showing through which m ight be related to the fuel getting to the panel. - I'm a bit surprised since the fuel tanks have two coat of the jeffco fuel s ealer in them.- I played around with some sandwich panel that is the same material as the wing skin (but without fuel sealer)-and fuel soaks throu gh the laminate and through the foam core easily. - Anyone have any thoughts?-- Should I worry or is this common?- - Scott =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:08 AM PST US From: Scott Stearns Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage I'm fixing the-seeps in a variety of ways, but I'm mainly about the fuel being in the wing skin laminate. - Scott --- On Mon, 10/18/10, F. Tim Yoder wrote: From: F. Tim Yoder Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Bummer! I think Rich has recommended creating a vacuum in the tank and appl ying a thin epoxy mix to the affected surface areas, the vacuum sucks the e poxy into the voids.-You should find this and other recommendations in th e archives. - Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Stearns Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 10:01 PM Subject: KIS-List: fuel seepage My right wing has a lot of small places where fuel is seeping out of the la minate.- For instance some of the screws that hold the aileron on-have blue stains around them.- It's pretty clear that fuel has gotten into the wing skin sandwich panel and is wicking through laminate and foam.- The left wing doesn't have any fuel seeps. - The top right wing skin also has a lot of the weave showing through which m ight be related to the fuel getting to the panel. - I'm a bit surprised since the fuel tanks have two coat of the jeffco fuel s ealer in them.- I played around with some sandwich panel that is the same material as the wing skin (but without fuel sealer)-and fuel soaks throu gh the laminate and through the foam core easily. - Anyone have any thoughts?-- Should I worry or is this common?- - Scott href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.c om/Navigator?KIS-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:39:32 AM PST US From: Richard Trickel Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Scott are your skins honeycomb or foam Rich --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns wrote: From: Scott Stearns Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage I'm fixing the-seeps in a variety of ways, but I'm mainly about the fuel being in the wing skin laminate. - Scott --- On Mon, 10/18/10, F. Tim Yoder wrote: From: F. Tim Yoder Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Bummer! I think Rich has recommended creating a vacuum in the tank and appl ying a thin epoxy mix to the affected surface areas, the vacuum sucks the e poxy into the voids.-You should find this and other recommendations in th e archives. - Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Stearns Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 10:01 PM Subject: KIS-List: fuel seepage My right wing has a lot of small places where fuel is seeping out of the la minate.- For instance some of the screws that hold the aileron on-have blue stains around them.- It's pretty clear that fuel has gotten into the wing skin sandwich panel and is wicking through laminate and foam.- The left wing doesn't have any fuel seeps. - The top right wing skin also has a lot of the weave showing through which m ight be related to the fuel getting to the panel. - I'm a bit surprised since the fuel tanks have two coat of the jeffco fuel s ealer in them.- I played around with some sandwich panel that is the same material as the wing skin (but without fuel sealer)-and fuel soaks throu gh the laminate and through the foam core easily. - Anyone have any thoughts?-- Should I worry or is this common?- - Scott href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.c om/Navigator?KIS-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:43:31 AM PST US From: Richard Trickel Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Scott I should have asked what the foam core is.- The fact that the carbo n cloth is porus is understandable but I was always under the belief that c losed cell foam would not pass the fuel.- This is one of the reason I use d it..- I would definately do a pressure check on the wing based on your discription of seapage.- Fuel is funny though.- Those fuel molecules ar e sneaky little bastards. --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns wrote: From: Scott Stearns Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Hi Rich, - I have a laminate that is just like the wing laminate.- I poured a pool o f fuel on top of it and it readily soaked thru the laminate and through the foam core.- The carbon was somewhat low resin content and I didn't use g lue sheet in the wing skins. - I also had areas in the wingtip where fuel was seeping out of the wing skin -laminate.- Also some of the areas around the-screws that hold the lo wer wing root fairing on are pretty badly blue stained. - Scott - --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Richard Trickel wrote: From: Richard Trickel Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Scott If the fuel stains are around the aileron screws I think your problem may b e fuel coming out of the cap.-I also had this problem and found that leav ing the tanks a little low solved the problem.- During flight you cannot see the fuel coming out but it does.--Check your fuel caps.- -I dou bt very much that fuel would seep that far through the foam core.- The co re is closed cell so the only way fuel could travel is along the skin/core bond.- Have you tested the tank for air leakage with a monometer.- I wo uld start there and take it step by step. Rich --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns wrote: From: Scott Stearns Subject: KIS-List: fuel seepage My right wing has a lot of small places where fuel is seeping out of the la minate.- For instance some of the screws that hold the aileron on-have blue stains around them.- It's pretty clear that fuel has gotten into the wing skin sandwich panel and is wicking through laminate and foam.- The left wing doesn't have any fuel seeps. - The top right wing skin also has a lot of the weave showing through which m ight be related to the fuel getting to the panel. - I'm a bit surprised since the fuel tanks have two coat of the jeffco fuel s ealer in them.- I played around with some sandwich panel that is the same material as the wing skin (but without fuel sealer)-and fuel soaks throu gh the laminate and through the foam core easily. - Anyone have any thoughts?-- Should I worry or is this common?- - Scott =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:57:33 AM PST US From: Scott Stearns Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Foam.... orange foam... the fuel soaks through it easily but doesn't seem t o effect it.- I have a jar of fuel that I'm soaking a few pieces of the l aminate in. - Scott --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Richard Trickel wrote: From: Richard Trickel Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Scott are your skins honeycomb or foam Rich --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns wrote: From: Scott Stearns Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage I'm fixing the-seeps in a variety of ways, but I'm mainly about the fuel being in the wing skin laminate. - Scott --- On Mon, 10/18/10, F. Tim Yoder wrote: From: F. Tim Yoder Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Bummer! I think Rich has recommended creating a vacuum in the tank and appl ying a thin epoxy mix to the affected surface areas, the vacuum sucks the e poxy into the voids.-You should find this and other recommendations in th e archives. - Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Stearns Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 10:01 PM Subject: KIS-List: fuel seepage My right wing has a lot of small places where fuel is seeping out of the la minate.- For instance some of the screws that hold the aileron on-have blue stains around them.- It's pretty clear that fuel has gotten into the wing skin sandwich panel and is wicking through laminate and foam.- The left wing doesn't have any fuel seeps. - The top right wing skin also has a lot of the weave showing through which m ight be related to the fuel getting to the panel. - I'm a bit surprised since the fuel tanks have two coat of the jeffco fuel s ealer in them.- I played around with some sandwich panel that is the same material as the wing skin (but without fuel sealer)-and fuel soaks throu gh the laminate and through the foam core easily. - Anyone have any thoughts?-- Should I worry or is this common?- - Scott href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.c om/Navigator?KIS-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:00:27 AM PST US From: Scott Stearns Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage I was amazed at how 'seepy' 100LL is when I was playing with it and the-s crap pieces of-laminate-yesterday.- It just wants to wick into anythi ng and seep everywhere.- - Scott --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Richard Trickel wrote: From: Richard Trickel Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Scott I should have asked what the foam core is.- The fact that the carbo n cloth is porus is understandable but I was always under the belief that c losed cell foam would not pass the fuel.- This is one of the reason I use d it..- I would definately do a pressure check on the wing based on your discription of seapage.- Fuel is funny though.- Those fuel molecules ar e sneaky little bastards. --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns wrote: From: Scott Stearns Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Hi Rich, - I have a laminate that is just like the wing laminate.- I poured a pool o f fuel on top of it and it readily soaked thru the laminate and through the foam core.- The carbon was somewhat low resin content and I didn't use g lue sheet in the wing skins. - I also had areas in the wingtip where fuel was seeping out of the wing skin -laminate.- Also some of the areas around the-screws that hold the lo wer wing root fairing on are pretty badly blue stained. - Scott - --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Richard Trickel wrote: From: Richard Trickel Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Scott If the fuel stains are around the aileron screws I think your problem may b e fuel coming out of the cap.-I also had this problem and found that leav ing the tanks a little low solved the problem.- During flight you cannot see the fuel coming out but it does.--Check your fuel caps.- -I dou bt very much that fuel would seep that far through the foam core.- The co re is closed cell so the only way fuel could travel is along the skin/core bond.- Have you tested the tank for air leakage with a monometer.- I wo uld start there and take it step by step. Rich --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns wrote: From: Scott Stearns Subject: KIS-List: fuel seepage My right wing has a lot of small places where fuel is seeping out of the la minate.- For instance some of the screws that hold the aileron on-have blue stains around them.- It's pretty clear that fuel has gotten into the wing skin sandwich panel and is wicking through laminate and foam.- The left wing doesn't have any fuel seeps. - The top right wing skin also has a lot of the weave showing through which m ight be related to the fuel getting to the panel. - I'm a bit surprised since the fuel tanks have two coat of the jeffco fuel s ealer in them.- I played around with some sandwich panel that is the same material as the wing skin (but without fuel sealer)-and fuel soaks throu gh the laminate and through the foam core easily. - Anyone have any thoughts?-- Should I worry or is this common?- - Scott =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:54 PM PST US From: "Larry David" Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Scott, When I was having my gasohol problems, you gave me the Jeffco 9700 i dea and it solved my leakeage problem. I am surprised that fuel is getting past the Jeffco 9700. Is it possible that somehing has happened to the wi ng during your test flights? Something seems to have changed. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Trickel To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 10:41 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Scott I should have asked what the foam core is. The fact that the carbon cloth is porus is understandable but I was always under the belief that closed cell foam would not pass the fuel. This is one of the reason I used it.. I would definately do a pressure check on the wing based on you r discription of seapage. Fuel is funny though. Those fuel molecules are sneaky little bastards. --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns wrote: From: Scott Stearns Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage To: kis-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 4:02 PM Hi Rich, I have a laminate that is just like the wing laminate. I p oured a pool of fuel on top of it and it readily soaked thru the laminate a nd through the foam core. The carbon was somewhat low resin content and I didn't use glue sheet in the wing skins. I also had areas in the wingtip where fuel was seeping out of the wing skin laminate. Also some of the areas around the screws that h old the lower wing root fairing on are pretty badly blue stained. Scott --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Richard Trickel wrote: From: Richard Trickel Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage To: kis-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 5:27 AM Scott If the fuel stains are around the aileron screws I think your problem may be fuel coming out of the cap. I also had this probl em and found that leaving the tanks a little low solved the problem. Durin g flight you cannot see the fuel coming out but it does. Check your fuel c aps. I doubt very much that fuel would seep that far through the foam cor e. The core is closed cell so the only way fuel could travel is along the skin/core bond. Have you tested the tank for air leakage with a monometer. I would start there and take it step by step. Rich --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns wrote: From: Scott Stearns Subject: KIS-List: fuel seepage To: kis-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 5:01 AM My right wing has a lot of small places whe re fuel is seeping out of the laminate. For instance some of the screws th at hold the aileron on have blue stains around them. It's pretty clear tha t fuel has gotten into the wing skin sandwich panel and is wicking through laminate and foam. The left wing doesn't have any fuel seeps. The top right wing skin also has a lot of t he weave showing through which might be related to the fuel getting to the panel. I'm a bit surprised since the fuel tanks ha ve two coat of the jeffco fuel sealer in them. I played around with some s andwich panel that is the same material as the wing skin (but without fuel sealer) and fuel soaks through the laminate and through the foam core easil y. Anyone have any thoughts? Should I worry or is this common? Scott =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:57:46 PM PST US From: Scott Stearns Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Hi Larry, - The seepage started fairly soon after I put a significant amount of fuel in it.- After playing with the scrap laminate and fuel it looks like it wou ld only take a small area to be exposed which is probably what's happening. - - Scott --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Larry David wrote: From: Larry David Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Scott, When I was having my gasohol problems, you gave me the Jeffco 9700 i dea and it solved my leakeage problem.- I am surprised that fuel is getti ng past the Jeffco 9700.--Is it possible that somehing has happened to the wing during your test flights?--Something seems to have changed.- Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Trickel Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 10:41 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Scott I should have asked what the foam core is.- The fact that the carbo n cloth is porus is understandable but I was always under the belief that c losed cell foam would not pass the fuel.- This is one of the reason I use d it..- I would definately do a pressure check on the wing based on your discription of seapage.- Fuel is funny though.- Those fuel molecules ar e sneaky little bastards. --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns wrote: From: Scott Stearns Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Hi Rich, - I have a laminate that is just like the wing laminate.- I poured a pool o f fuel on top of it and it readily soaked thru the laminate and through the foam core.- The carbon was somewhat low resin content and I didn't use g lue sheet in the wing skins. - I also had areas in the wingtip where fuel was seeping out of the wing skin -laminate.- Also some of the areas around the-screws that hold the lo wer wing root fairing on are pretty badly blue stained. - Scott - --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Richard Trickel wrote: From: Richard Trickel Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Scott If the fuel stains are around the aileron screws I think your problem may b e fuel coming out of the cap.-I also had this problem and found that leav ing the tanks a little low solved the problem.- During flight you cannot see the fuel coming out but it does.--Check your fuel caps.- -I dou bt very much that fuel would seep that far through the foam core.- The co re is closed cell so the only way fuel could travel is along the skin/core bond.- Have you tested the tank for air leakage with a monometer.- I wo uld start there and take it step by step. Rich --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns wrote: From: Scott Stearns Subject: KIS-List: fuel seepage My right wing has a lot of small places where fuel is seeping out of the la minate.- For instance some of the screws that hold the aileron on-have blue stains around them.- It's pretty clear that fuel has gotten into the wing skin sandwich panel and is wicking through laminate and foam.- The left wing doesn't have any fuel seeps. - The top right wing skin also has a lot of the weave showing through which m ight be related to the fuel getting to the panel. - I'm a bit surprised since the fuel tanks have two coat of the jeffco fuel s ealer in them.- I played around with some sandwich panel that is the same material as the wing skin (but without fuel sealer)-and fuel soaks throu gh the laminate and through the foam core easily. - Anyone have any thoughts?-- Should I worry or is this common?- - Scott =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ://www.matronics..com/Navigator?KIS-List ics.com matronics.com/contribution =0A=0A=0A ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kis-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/KIS-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kis-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kis-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.