KIS-List Digest Archive

Wed 10/20/10


Total Messages Posted: 4



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 04:45 AM - Re: fuel seepage (Graham Brighton)
     2. 05:50 AM - Re: fuel seepage (Mark Kettering)
     3. 08:51 AM - Re: fuel seepage (Richard Trickel)
     4. 11:54 AM - Re: fuel seepage (Mark Kettering)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 04:45:24 AM PST US
    From: "Graham Brighton" <gbrighton@skymesh.com.au>
    Subject: Re: fuel seepage
    Scott, No advice here ...but just to say ...sorry hear about the set back ...grrr ...!!! Graham . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Stearns To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 10:56 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Hi Larry, The seepage started fairly soon after I put a significant amount of fuel in it. After playing with the scrap laminate and fuel it looks like it would only take a small area to be exposed which is probably what's happening. Scott --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Larry David <lgdavid@roadrunner.com> wrote: From: Larry David <lgdavid@roadrunner.com> Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage To: kis-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 4:38 PM Scott, When I was having my gasohol problems, you gave me the Jeffco 9700 idea and it solved my leakeage problem. I am surprised that fuel is getting past the Jeffco 9700. Is it possible that somehing has happened to the wing during your test flights? Something seems to have changed. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Trickel To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 10:41 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Scott I should have asked what the foam core is. The fact that the carbon cloth is porus is understandable but I was always under the belief that closed cell foam would not pass the fuel. This is one of the reason I used it.. I would definately do a pressure check on the wing based on your discription of seapage. Fuel is funny though. Those fuel molecules are sneaky little bastards. --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage To: kis-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 4:02 PM Hi Rich, I have a laminate that is just like the wing laminate. I poured a pool of fuel on top of it and it readily soaked thru the laminate and through the foam core. The carbon was somewhat low resin content and I didn't use glue sheet in the wing skins. I also had areas in the wingtip where fuel was seeping out of the wing skin laminate. Also some of the areas around the screws that hold the lower wing root fairing on are pretty badly blue stained. Scott --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Richard Trickel <richard_trickel@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Richard Trickel <richard_trickel@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage To: kis-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 5:27 AM Scott If the fuel stains are around the aileron screws I think your problem may be fuel coming out of the cap. I also had this problem and found that leaving the tanks a little low solved the problem. During flight you cannot see the fuel coming out but it does. Check your fuel caps. I doubt very much that fuel would seep that far through the foam core. The core is closed cell so the only way fuel could travel is along the skin/core bond. Have you tested the tank for air leakage with a monometer. I would start there and take it step by step. Rich --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com> Subject: KIS-List: fuel seepage To: kis-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 5:01 AM My right wing has a lot of small places where fuel is seeping out of the laminate. For instance some of the screws that hold the aileron on have blue stains around them. It's pretty clear that fuel has gotten into the wing skin sandwich panel and is wicking through laminate and foam. The left wing doesn't have any fuel seeps. The top right wing skin also has a lot of the weave showing through which might be related to the fuel getting to the panel. I'm a bit surprised since the fuel tanks have two coat of the jeffco fuel sealer in them. I played around with some sandwich panel that is the same material as the wing skin (but without fuel sealer) and fuel soaks through the laminate and through the foam core easily. Anyone have any thoughts? Should I worry or is this common? Scott =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ://www.matronics..com/Navigator?KIS-List ics.com matronics.com/contribution =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:50:57 AM PST US
    From: Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: fuel seepage
    Scott and others, I think Jeffco is great and is the way to go. But only after all pin holes and other pores are first filled with epoxy. I think the Jeffco is too thick and will bridge and form pin holes. I think the factory could have used resin rich veil where there there is fuel. When I was doing the LSA in China I specified two layers of veil in the fuel tank areas. But since that was not done on the KIS and is still not done in many kits I would first spread on epoxy in the areas that will become the tank. Make it very wet and push it back, forth and into the surface slowly. Then remove the excess. Then after it is cured, sand most of it off and repeat. For this I would use infusion resin with low viscosity. Normal laminating resin has is about 1000 cps and tends to bridge and form pin holes. Infusion epoxy can be under 200 cps. Epoxy can also be slightly thinned using acetone. I use no more than 5%. Still, start with the infusion resin and thin from there. Of course this does not help those with closed wings. But if you were to slosh or use vacuum to draw in resin I would use infusion resin. I do not know if you can use epoxy over Jeffco. Mark


    Message 3


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    Time: 08:51:19 AM PST US
    From: Richard Trickel <richard_trickel@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: fuel seepage
    Mark We are about to build the wing skins for the Volare.- Don`t have any vail here but do have film adhesive which you have seen.- Think that would wo rk? Rich --- On Wed, 10/20/10, Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net> wrote: From: Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Scott and others, I think Jeffco is great and is the way to go.- But only after all pin hol es and other pores are first filled with epoxy.- I think the Jeffco is to o thick and will bridge and form pin holes.- I think the factory could ha ve used resin rich veil where there there is fuel.- When I was doing the LSA in China I specified two layers of veil in the fuel tank areas. But since that was not done on the KIS and is still not done in many kits I would first spread on epoxy in the areas that will become the tank.- Mak e it very wet and push it back, forth and into the surface slowly.- Then remove the excess.- Then after it is cured, sand most of it off and repea t. For this I would use infusion resin with low viscosity.- Normal laminatin g resin has is about 1000 cps and tends to bridge and form pin holes.- In fusion epoxy can be under 200 cps.- Epoxy can also be slightly thinned us ing acetone.- I use no more than 5%.- Still, start with the infusion re sin and thin from there. Of course this does not help those with closed wings.- But if you were to slosh or use vacuum to draw in resin I would use infusion resin.- I do n ot know if you can use epoxy over Jeffco. Mark le, List Admin. =0A=0A=0A


    Message 4


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    Time: 11:54:41 AM PST US
    From: Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: fuel seepage
    Hi Rich, If I recall there were a few types of film adhesive. One had what looked like some veil when you ripped it. Another seemed to have no veil. Both will help but I think the type with veil is better. On molds and boat parts I have been using veil and it really prevents pin holes and reduces print through. It adds a very small amount of weight but it is well worth it. I have not used in on aircraft parts (other than for the inside at the fuel tanks) but I would consider it if you can find it as prepreg. We made our own prepreg at the LSA factory. The boat parts are infusion epoxy and do not have gel coat so can also have pin hole issues when there is no veil. I would use dry veil with the film adhesive of any type for the fuel tanks if you can not find prepreg. Mark -----Original Message----- From: Richard Trickel Sent: Oct 20, 2010 11:49 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Mark We are about to build the wing skins for the Volare. Don`t have any vail here but do have film adhesive which you have seen. Think that would work? Rich --- On Wed, 10/20/10, Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net> wrote: From: Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: KIS-List: fuel seepage Scott and others, I think Jeffco is great and is the way to go. But only after all pin holes and other pores are first filled with epoxy. I think the Jeffco is too thick and will bridge and form pin holes. I think the factory could have used resin rich veil where there there is fuel. When I was doing the LSA in China I specified two layers of veil in the fuel tank areas. But since that was not done on the KIS and is still not done in many kits I would first spread on epoxy in the areas that will become the tank. Make it very wet and push it back, forth and into the surface slowly. Then remove the excess. Then after it is cured, sand most of it off and repeat. For this I would use infusion resin with low viscosity. Normal laminating resin has is about 1000 cps and tends to bridge and form pin holes. Infusion epoxy can be under 200 cps. Epoxy can also be slightly thinned using acetone. I use no more than 5%. Still, start with the infusion resin and thin from there. Of course this does not help those with closed wings. But if you were to slosh or use vacuum to draw in resin I would use infusion resin. I do not know if you can use epoxy o href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List" target=_blank>http:p://forums.matronics.com/" target=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com< &nbstp://www.matronics.com/contribution" ======




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