Today's Message Index:
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1. 05:14 AM - Re: Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller ()
2. 06:37 AM - Re: Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller (Richard Trickel)
3. 08:04 AM - Re: Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller (Scott Stearns)
4. 10:40 AM - Re: Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller (Richard Trickel)
5. 11:58 AM - Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller (BlueSkyFlier)
6. 12:51 PM - Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller (BlueSkyFlier)
7. 12:53 PM - Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller (BlueSkyFlier)
8. 01:45 PM - Re: Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller (Galin Hernandez)
9. 02:06 PM - Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller (BlueSkyFlier)
10. 03:04 PM - Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller (BlueSkyFlier)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller |
3/15/2010
Hello Alfred, You wrote: "One important observation from these studies is
that steeply banked turns should be given a wide berth in the KIS TR-1 if
you have less than 130 hp up front coupled with a propeller pitch in the
high 60"s. Anything more than 55 degree bank has the potential to really
spoil you day - and everyone else's too."
I don't understand:
A) What bad thing(s) are supposed to happen with more than 55 degree angle
of bank?
B) Why are the engine horsepower and propeller pitch specifically
responsible for these bad things?
Thanks,
OC
PS: I routinely practice 60 degree angle of bank turns with my TCM 125 HP
IO-240 B9B powered KIS TR-1 that has a 68 inch diameter by 69 inch pitch
Prince P tip propeller. I use 100 knots indicated airspeed (which I consider
V sub a, or maneuvering airspeed for my plane) and just a bit more than
2,000 RPM (which is not nearly max engine horsepower output) in order to
maintain altitude during the turn.
It is a fairly demanding exercise, particularly during entry to and exit
from the turn to avoid altitude excursions, but my decrepit 78 year old hand
eye coordination has managed to avoid anything that I would call bad so far.
My goal is to meet the US FAA Commercial Pilot Practical Test Standards
copied here:
A. TASK: STEEP TURNS (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to steep turns.
2. Establishes the manufacturer's recommended airspeed or if one
is not stated, a safe airspeed not to exceed VA.
3. Rolls into a coordinated 360 steep turn with at least a 50 bank,
followed by a 360 steep turn in the opposite direction.
4. Divides attention between airplane control and orientation.
5. Maintains the entry altitude, 100 feet (30 meters), airspeed,
10 knots, bank, 5; and rolls out on the entry heading, 10.
================================================================
From: "BlueSkyFlier" <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com>
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 6:43 AM
Subject: KIS-List: Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller
> <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com>
>
> Chuckle chuckle ... [Laughing]
>
> Hi Galin. I was thinking of you when I did the write-up because I did
> previously say to you that a 3-blade prop is rarely if ever better than
> the 2-blade -- that statement still holds if both prop types have the same
> pitch.
>
> In such case the one advantage of the 3-blade is that the lower power
> loading per blade reduces the lift coefficent on the blades. Therefore the
> 3-blade stops cavitating (starts to 'bite' properly) at lower forward
> speed than a 2-blade generating the same thrust. Takeoff acceleration
> therefore benefits. The price to pay for that benefit is the higher
> parasitic drag of the 3-blade prop.
>
> In any case, reducing the propeller pitch is what really makes the
> difference and is essential to release the extra RPM needed to tap into
> the top end of the 'full throttle' curves at any % remaining power. The
> parasitic drag penalty is offset by reducing the diameter accordingly.
>
> One important observation from these studies is that steeply banked turns
> should be given a wide berth in the KIS TR-1 if you have less than 130 hp
> up front coupled with a propeller pitch in the high 60"s. Anything more
> than 55 degree bank has the potential to really spoil you day - and
> everyone else's too.
>
> [Bonbons for those who spot the obvious little booboo in two of the labels
> on the diagram :o)]
>
> Cheers,
> Alfred
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller |
Alfred
I agree with O.C.- I and may others have done what is considered aerobati
c manuvers with no grave dangers.. I know of one South African who did snap
rolls on take off.- ( He has a bigger set than I do)- 60 degrees shoul
d be no problem.- I do know the plane becomes very quiet upside down and
I get a little dirt in my eyes:)
Rich
--- On Tue, 3/15/11, bakerocb@cox.net <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
From: bakerocb@cox.net <bakerocb@cox.net>
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller
3/15/2010
Hello Alfred, You wrote: "One important observation from these studies is t
hat steeply banked turns should be given a wide berth in the KIS TR-1 if yo
u have less than 130 hp up front coupled with a propeller pitch in the high
60"s. Anything more than 55 degree bank has the potential to really spoil
you day - and everyone else's too."
I don't understand:
A) What bad thing(s) are supposed to happen with more than 55 degree angle
of bank?
B) Why are the engine horsepower and propeller pitch specifically responsib
le for these bad things?
Thanks,
OC
PS: I routinely practice 60 degree angle of bank turns with my TCM 125 HP I
O-240 B9B powered KIS TR-1 that has a 68 inch diameter by 69 inch pitch Pri
nce P tip propeller. I use 100 knots indicated airspeed (which I consider V
sub a, or maneuvering airspeed for my plane) and just a bit more than 2,00
0 RPM (which is not nearly max engine horsepower output) in order to mainta
in altitude during the turn.
It is a fairly demanding exercise, particularly during entry to and exit fr
om the turn to avoid altitude excursions, but my decrepit 78 year old hand
eye coordination has managed to avoid anything that I would call bad so far
. My goal is to meet the US FAA Commercial Pilot Practical Test Standards c
opied here:
A. TASK: STEEP TURNS (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to steep turns.
2. Establishes the manufacturer's recommended airspeed or if one
is not stated, a safe airspeed not to exceed VA.
3. Rolls into a coordinated 360=B0 steep turn with at least a 50=B0 bank,
followed by a 360=B0 steep turn in the opposite direction.
4. Divides attention between airplane control and orientation.
5. Maintains the entry altitude, =B1100 feet (30 meters), airspeed,
=B110 knots, bank, =B15=B0; and rolls out on the entry heading, =B110=B0.
==============
From: "BlueSkyFlier" <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com>
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 6:43 AM
Subject: KIS-List: Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller
m>
>
> Chuckle chuckle ... [Laughing]
>
> Hi Galin. I was thinking of you when I did the write-up because I did pre
viously say to you that a 3-blade prop is rarely if ever better than the 2-
blade -- that statement still holds if both prop types have the same pitch.
>
> In such case the one advantage of the 3-blade is that the lower power loa
ding per blade reduces the lift coefficent on the blades. Therefore the 3-b
lade stops cavitating (starts to 'bite' properly) at lower forward speed th
an a 2-blade generating the same thrust. Takeoff acceleration therefore ben
efits. The price to pay for that benefit is the higher parasitic drag of th
e 3-blade prop.
>
> In any case, reducing the propeller pitch is what really makes the differ
ence and is essential to release the extra RPM needed to tap into the top e
nd of the 'full throttle' curves at any % remaining power. The parasitic dr
ag penalty is offset by reducing the diameter accordingly.
>
> One important observation from these studies is that steeply banked turns
should be given a wide berth in the KIS TR-1 if you have less than 130 hp
up front coupled with a propeller pitch in the high 60"s. Anything more tha
n 55 degree bank has the potential to really spoil you day - and everyone e
lse's too.
>
> [Bonbons for those who spot the obvious little booboo in two of the label
s on the diagram :o)]
>
> Cheers,
>- - - - ---Alfred
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller |
I've rolled my airplane a few times now without any issues, but I think wha
t Alfred is getting at is that with only 130HP you probably cannot do a sus
tained-55+ degree bank turn at altitude without the speed bleeding off a
lot.
-
Scott
--- On Tue, 3/15/11, Richard Trickel <richard_trickel@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Richard Trickel <richard_trickel@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller
Alfred
I agree with O.C.- I and may others have done what is considered aerobati
c manuvers with no grave dangers.. I know of one South African who did snap
rolls on take off.- ( He has a bigger set than I do)- 60 degrees shoul
d be no problem.- I do know the plane becomes very quiet upside down and
I get a little dirt in my eyes:)
Rich
--- On Tue, 3/15/11, bakerocb@cox.net <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
From: bakerocb@cox.net <bakerocb@cox.net>
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller
3/15/2010
Hello Alfred, You wrote: "One important observation from these studies is t
hat steeply banked turns should be given a wide berth in the KIS TR-1 if yo
u have less than 130 hp up front coupled with a propeller pitch in the high
60"s. Anything more than 55 degree bank has the potential to really spoil
you day - and everyone else's too."
I don't understand:
A) What bad thing(s) are supposed to happen with more than 55 degree angle
of bank?
B) Why are the engine horsepower and propeller pitch specifically responsib
le for these bad things?
Thanks,
OC
PS: I routinely practice 60 degree angle of bank turns with my TCM 125 HP I
O-240 B9B powered KIS TR-1 that has a 68 inch diameter by 69 inch pitch Pri
nce P tip propeller. I use 100 knots indicated airspeed (which I consider V
sub a, or maneuvering airspeed for my plane) and just a bit more than 2,00
0 RPM (which is not nearly max engine horsepower output) in order to mainta
in altitude during the turn.
It is a fairly demanding exercise, particularly during entry to and exit fr
om the turn to avoid altitude excursions, but my decrepit 78 year old hand
eye coordination has managed to avoid anything that I would call bad so far
. My goal is to meet the US FAA Commercial Pilot Practical Test Standards c
opied here:
A. TASK: STEEP TURNS (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to steep turns.
2. Establishes the manufacturer's recommended airspeed or if one
is not stated, a safe airspeed not to exceed VA.
3. Rolls into a coordinated 360=B0 steep turn with at least a 50=B0 bank,
followed by a 360=B0 steep turn in the opposite direction.
4. Divides attention between airplane control and orientation.
5. Maintains the entry altitude, =B1100 feet (30 meters), airspeed,
=B110 knots, bank, =B15=B0; and rolls out on the entry heading, =B110=B0.
==============
From: "BlueSkyFlier" <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com>
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 6:43 AM
Subject: KIS-List: Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller
m>
>
> Chuckle chuckle ... [Laughing]
>
> Hi Galin. I was thinking of you when I did the write-up because I did pre
viously say to you that a 3-blade prop is rarely if ever better than the 2-
blade -- that statement still holds if both prop types have the same pitch.
>
> In such case the one advantage of the 3-blade is that the lower power loa
ding per blade reduces the lift coefficent on the blades. Therefore the 3-b
lade stops cavitating (starts to 'bite' properly) at lower forward speed th
an a 2-blade generating the same thrust. Takeoff acceleration therefore ben
efits. The price to pay for that benefit is the higher parasitic drag of th
e 3-blade prop.
>
> In any case, reducing the propeller pitch is what really makes the differ
ence and is essential to release the extra RPM needed to tap into the top e
nd of the 'full throttle' curves at any % remaining power. The parasitic dr
ag penalty is offset by reducing the diameter accordingly.
>
> One important observation from these studies is that steeply banked turns
should be given a wide berth in the KIS TR-1 if you have less than 130 hp
up front coupled with a propeller pitch in the high 60"s. Anything more tha
n 55 degree bank has the potential to really spoil you day - and everyone e
lse's too.
>
> [Bonbons for those who spot the obvious little booboo in two of the label
s on the diagram :o)]
>
> Cheers,
>- - - htthttp://forums.matronics.com/" target=_blank>http://forums
.matronics.com
=0A=0A=0A
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller |
Scott
Yea your going to slow down but i think you can maintain altitude.- I wou
ld not try it at 100 ft. but in practice it should be little problem
Rich
--- On Tue, 3/15/11, Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller
I've rolled my airplane a few times now without any issues, but I think wha
t Alfred is getting at is that with only 130HP you probably cannot do a sus
tained-55+ degree bank turn at altitude without the speed bleeding off a
lot.
-
Scott
--- On Tue, 3/15/11, Richard Trickel <richard_trickel@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Richard Trickel <richard_trickel@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller
Alfred
I agree with O.C.- I and may others have done what is considered aerobati
c manuvers with no grave dangers.. I know of one South African who did snap
rolls on take off.- ( He has a bigger set than I do)- 60 degrees shoul
d be no problem.- I do know the plane becomes very quiet upside down and
I get a little dirt in my eyes:)
Rich
--- On Tue, 3/15/11, bakerocb@cox.net <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
From: bakerocb@cox.net <bakerocb@cox.net>
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller
3/15/2010
Hello Alfred, You wrote: "One important observation from these studies is t
hat steeply banked turns should be given a wide berth in the KIS TR-1 if yo
u have less than 130 hp up front coupled with a propeller pitch in the high
60"s. Anything more than 55 degree bank has the potential to really spoil
you day - and everyone else's too."
I don't understand:
A) What bad thing(s) are supposed to happen with more than 55 degree angle
of bank?
B) Why are the engine horsepower and propeller pitch specifically responsib
le for these bad things?
Thanks,
OC
PS: I routinely practice 60 degree angle of bank turns with my TCM 125 HP I
O-240 B9B powered KIS TR-1 that has a 68 inch diameter by 69 inch pitch Pri
nce P tip propeller. I use 100 knots indicated airspeed (which I consider V
sub a, or maneuvering airspeed for my plane) and just a bit more than 2,00
0 RPM (which is not nearly max engine horsepower output) in order to mainta
in altitude during the turn.
It is a fairly demanding exercise, particularly during entry to and exit fr
om the turn to avoid altitude excursions, but my decrepit 78 year old hand
eye coordination has managed to avoid anything that I would call bad so far
. My goal is to meet the US FAA Commercial Pilot Practical Test Standards c
opied here:
A. TASK: STEEP TURNS (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to steep turns.
2. Establishes the manufacturer's recommended airspeed or if one
is not stated, a safe airspeed not to exceed VA.
3. Rolls into a coordinated 360=B0 steep turn with at least a 50=B0 bank,
followed by a 360=B0 steep turn in the opposite direction.
4. Divides attention between airplane control and orientation.
5. Maintains the entry altitude, =B1100 feet (30 meters), airspeed,
=B110 knots, bank, =B15=B0; and rolls out on the entry heading, =B110=B0.
==============
From: "BlueSkyFlier" <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com>
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 6:43 AM
Subject: KIS-List: Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller
m>
>
> Chuckle chuckle ... [Laughing]
>
> Hi Galin. I was thinking of you when I did the write-up because I did pre
viously say to you that a 3-blade prop is rarely if ever better than the 2-
blade -- that statement still holds if both prop types have the same pitch.
>
> In such case the one advantage of the 3-blade is that the lower power loa
ding per blade reduces the lift coefficent on the blades. Therefore the 3-b
lade stops cavitating (starts to 'bite' properly) at lower forward speed th
an a 2-blade generating the same thrust. Takeoff acceleration therefore ben
efits. The price to pay for that benefit is the higher parasitic drag of th
e 3-blade prop.
>
> In any case, reducing the propeller pitch is what really makes the differ
ence and is essential to release the extra RPM needed to tap into the top e
nd of the 'full throttle' curves at any % remaining power. The parasitic dr
ag penalty is offset by reducing the diameter accordingly.
>
> One important observation from these studies is that steeply banked turns
should be given a wide berth in the KIS TR-1 if you have less than 130 hp
up front coupled with a propeller pitch in the high 60"s. Anything more tha
n 55 degree bank has the potential to really spoil you day - and everyone e
lse's too.
>
> [Bonbons for those who spot the obvious little booboo in two of the label
s on the diagram :o)]
>
> Cheers,
>- - - htthttp://forums.matronics.com/" target=_blank>http://forums
.matronics.com
=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com
llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=0A=0A=0A
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| Subject: | Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller |
Whoa guys! The intention was not to insult the plane. I own one too, remember.
Once you have done your HASELL check, no problem. We all need to do those turns
to pass the checks. I also did a snap roll recently in training sussing out
where and when she drops a wing in stall speed regime - also when getting too
slow in a slip, especially to starboard. No problem with recoveries if you have
height.
The point I'm making (badly so seemingly) is that it puts you into a region of
the flight envelope where you have preciously little spare performance to get
out of trouble if you don't have height to spare. To answer OCs question, thats
why engine power and prop pitch comes into the equation. Rich and Scott hit
the nail on the head. With current parameters, the model indicates that - with
125hp engine and 69 pitch prop - it would be difficult to sustain a 60 degree
turn above 3500 feet altitude.
I propped the propeller and power configuration for OCs plane into the model. Results
in diagram attached below match what he reported the speed he referred
to would be IAS. With the graph based on TAS, it is of course offset slightly
to the right from the 100 kts reported by OC. The dashed purple line is RPM (divided
by ten on lefthand scale). Good to have another confirmation that the
model works.
Cheers,
Alfred
--------
_________________________________________
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=333982#333982
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| Subject: | Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller |
And by way of contrast to the above performance in sixty degree turn at 2000 feet,
below a 55% degree turn at 3500 feet.
Because the cosine function goes to infinity at 90 degrees, don't underestimate
how quickly things can get out of hand once you pass the 55 degree mark :o)
Regards,
Alfred
--------
_________________________________________
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=333987#333987
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| Subject: | Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller |
Oops! finger trouble.
Attachment which should been above now attached ...
--------
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Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=333988#333988
Attachments:
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| Subject: | Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller |
Thanks. I have a KIS4 so it will be a little different but overall the
same principal applies
On Monday, March 14, 2011, BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com> wrote:
>
> Chuckle chuckle ... [Laughing]
>
> Hi Galin. I was thinking of you when I did the write-up because I did previously
say to you that a 3-blade prop is rarely if ever better than the 2-blade --
that statement still holds if both prop types have the same pitch.
>
> In such case the one advantage of the 3-blade is that the lower power loading
per blade reduces the lift coefficent on the blades. Therefore the 3-blade stops
cavitating (starts to 'bite' properly) at lower forward speed than a 2-blade
generating the same thrust. Takeoff acceleration therefore benefits. The price
to pay for that benefit is the higher parasitic drag of the 3-blade prop.
>
> In any case, reducing the propeller pitch is what really makes the difference
and is essential to release the extra RPM needed to tap into the top end of the
'full throttle' curves at any % remaining power. The parasitic drag penalty
is offset by reducing the diameter accordingly.
>
> One important observation from these studies is that steeply banked turns should
be given a wide berth in the KIS TR-1 if you have less than 130 hp up front
coupled with a propeller pitch in the high 60"s. Anything more than 55 degree
bank has the potential to really spoil you day - and everyone else's too.
>
> [Bonbons for those who spot the obvious little booboo in two of the labels on
the diagram :o)]
>
> Cheers,
> Alfred
>
> --------
> _________________________________________
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=333836#333836
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller |
And it is the arc-cosine which goes to infinity of course.
Can't talk about the KIS4 Galin - but as far as propellers go the same principles
do hold.
I'll get back in my cupboard now :) .
- Alfred
--------
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=333994#333994
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| Subject: | Re: KIS TR-1 Propeller |
Just before I close the cupboard door ...
>From postings earlier in this thread it appears that some may be under the impression
that opening up the throttle when using less than top RPM will give immediate
access to power. That is a dangerous notion not to be trifled with.
Please be aware that once your RPM has dropped - there is no guarantee that you
will be able to regain RPM (i.e. power). Propeller loading and remaining available
power alone will determine if rpm will increase again or not.
For example, in the above diagram for 55 degree turn at 3500 feet the full throttle
power at 3000 feet (for 125 hp engine) is shown as the lowermost diagonal
rising line between 70 and 132 knots on the chart. Once the RPM has dropped below
2000 and the speed below 100 kt the load on the propeller will not allow
it to speed up again even if you push the throttle to the wall - unless you can
sacrifice altitude to reduce the load on the propeller.
The true (hidden) meaning of the 'full throttle' power curve lies therein that
- despite full throttle - you can not access all the power your engine can produce
at that altitude unless your propeller loading is such that it allows rpm
to increase. And if you increase the prop load by trying to make the plane go
higher you lose even more power. You all know the scenario ...
That is why it is best to avoid these areas where the 'full throttle' power dips
below the power required to sustain level flight.
Fair winds ...
- Alfred
--------
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