Today's Message Index:
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1. 12:39 AM - Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice (Scott Stearns)
2. 12:52 AM - Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice (Scott Stearns)
3. 01:12 AM - Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice (Keith.Miller@esa.int)
4. 03:45 AM - Re: Air struts (Robert Anderson)
5. 05:50 AM - Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice (Mark Kettering)
6. 07:06 AM - Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice (BlueSkyFlier)
7. 12:36 PM - Re: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice (Mark Kettering)
8. 03:08 PM - Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice (BlueSkyFlier)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice |
The repair looks pretty minor to=C2-me.=C2- I'd like to see more pictur
es before I completely commit to an opinion but...=C2-
=C2-
One side of the=C2-vertical part of the spar is molded with the spar caps
into a C section.=C2- The damaged portion is on the opposite side and is
a piece of sandwich panel bonded in by the builder.=C2-
=C2-
http://www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com/KIS-TR1-Web/BuildersManual/TR1_08_wi
ngs.pdf
=C2-
I would grind out the damaged areas enough to inspect the inside plies of t
he sandwich panel.=C2- If they are okay then it's not that big of a job t
o recreate the sandwich panel with foam/micro and glass over it with 3 or 4
plies.=C2- It should be about=C2-a 1 hour job for someone comfortable
with fiberglass work on airplanes from the looks of it.=C2- The european
sailplane=C2-composite=C2-guys are probably very good.=C2-
=C2-
If the inner plies of the sandwich panel are damaged then pull out the whol
e sandwich panel and bond in a new one.=C2- That would be a good as new r
epair as long as the rest of the spar is undamaged.=C2-
=C2-
If the carbon (black) spar caps are damaged at all then the spar is junk.
=C2- Inspect the area where the crack ends into the black carbon spar cap
very carefully.=C2- The shear web is pretty lightly loaded, but the carb
on spar caps are about the only=C2-"if it fails you die"=C2-structure i
n the airplane.=C2- They are critical and highly loaded.=C2-
=C2-
Where is the crack relative to the bushing the wing bolts go through?=C2-
=C2-
My impression is that there were more fuselage kits than wing kits produced
.=C2- My wing was the last one produced (11 years ago)=C2-and some of
=C2-the tooling was in pretty rough shape back then.=C2- I'm sure=C2-
the tooling is=C2-gone by now.=C2-
=C2-
Scott
--- On Tue, 4/12/11, BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com> wrote:
From: BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com>
Subject: KIS-List: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice
As most of you know, my plane was damaged in a accident when taxiing in Feb
ruary. Having dropped the wing, we found the rear left spar/support strut b
roken on the wing side of the juction with the fuselage.=C2- Enough space
there to implement a good and proper fix with alu sideplates added into th
e (on both sides of the plane) so no problem.
The bigger issue is that the main spar has a compression fracture at top af
t corner of the spar beam where it exits from the spar box on the left side
. A photos of this is attached (with vernier calipers set to about one inch
). Luckily it is on the top side.
Question for Rich (or anyone else who has the knowledge) =C3=A2=82=AC
=9C Do you perhaps have access to a drawing of spar construction or coul
d you describe it in brief?
Today I visited two composite material workshops which specialize in sailpl
ane spar and wing construction and repair and have extended this knowhow to
other composite aircraft as well. The owner of one of these enterprises ha
s been building and repairing wings and spars since the seventies and it is
evident that the repair my wing spar is a nothing out of the ordinary for
them. In all those years they have never had a failure in a repaired spar a
nd hey have the knowhow, methods and tools required for the job down pat.
=C2- He was kind enough to 'walk' me through the process and equipment th
ey would use. Pricey it is, yeah =C3=A2=82=AC=9C in the high four
figures sterling.
So now I have a dilemma. I can walk away and buy another plane for (say) 25
grand. Then I have a 2nd hand plane that I need to sort out from scratch.
=C2- On the other hand I could apply that same 25 grand to completely rep
air and refurbish the current plane including zero-timed (SMOH) engine, new
paint job and fixing all the niggles that I want sorted out (like rudder p
edals, stress on rudder horn, location of main gear, electric flaps, etc.)
Then I have an aircraft which is effectively refurbished to my standards an
d which I also know inside-out by the time the job is done. [Note: I have a
lready decided that the time required to get the job done is not a factor i
n my equation.]
So what you do in my shoes? (assuming that I buy back the salvage for a nom
inal sum, having already confirmed that competitive interest is effectively
non-existent).=C2- I shall make up my own mind, don=C3=A2=82=AC=84
=A2t worry =C3=A2=82=AC=9C just need different perspectives if you
care to share.
Regards,
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-Alfred
--------
_________________________________________
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336753#336753
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on Web Site -
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice |
The sandwich panel also has solid fiberglass or phenolic 'plates' where the
bushings for the spar bolts are.=C2- If you have to pull out the sandwic
h panel, then it should be pretty clear to=C2- a composite repair person
to see how to recreate it.
=C2-
Scott
--- On Wed, 4/13/11, Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: KIS-List: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice
The repair looks pretty minor to=C2-me.=C2- I'd like to see more pictur
es before I completely commit to an opinion but...=C2-
=C2-
One side of the=C2-vertical part of the spar is molded with the spar caps
into a C section.=C2- The damaged portion is on the opposite side and is
a piece of sandwich panel bonded in by the builder.=C2-
=C2-
http://www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com/KIS-TR1-Web/BuildersManual/TR1_08_wi
ngs.pdf
=C2-
I would grind out the damaged areas enough to inspect the inside plies of t
he sandwich panel.=C2- If they are okay then it's not that big of a job t
o recreate the sandwich panel with foam/micro and glass over it with 3 or 4
plies.=C2- It should be about=C2-a 1 hour job for someone comfortable
with fiberglass work on airplanes from the looks of it.=C2- The european
sailplane=C2-composite=C2-guys are probably very good.=C2-
=C2-
If the inner plies of the sandwich panel are damaged then pull out the whol
e sandwich panel and bond in a new one.=C2- That would be a good as new r
epair as long as the rest of the spar is undamaged.=C2-
=C2-
If the carbon (black) spar caps are damaged at all then the spar is junk.
=C2- Inspect the area where the crack ends into the black carbon spar cap
very carefully.=C2- The shear web is pretty lightly loaded, but the carb
on spar caps are about the only=C2-"if it fails you die"=C2-structure i
n the airplane.=C2- They are critical and highly loaded.=C2-
=C2-
Where is the crack relative to the bushing the wing bolts go through?=C2-
=C2-
My impression is that there were more fuselage kits than wing kits produced
.=C2- My wing was the last one produced (11 years ago)=C2-and some of
=C2-the tooling was in pretty rough shape back then.=C2- I'm sure=C2-
the tooling is=C2-gone by now.=C2-
=C2-
Scott
--- On Tue, 4/12/11, BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com> wrote:
From: BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com>
Subject: KIS-List: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice
As most of you know, my plane was damaged in a accident when taxiing in Feb
ruary. Having dropped the wing, we found the rear left spar/support strut b
roken on the wing side of the juction with the fuselage.=C2- Enough space
there to implement a good and proper fix with alu sideplates added into th
e (on both sides of the plane) so no problem.
The bigger issue is that the main spar has a compression fracture at top af
t corner of the spar beam where it exits from the spar box on the left side
. A photos of this is attached (with vernier calipers set to about one inch
). Luckily it is on the top side.
Question for Rich (or anyone else who has the knowledge) =C3=A2=82=AC
=9C Do you perhaps have access to a drawing of spar construction or coul
d you describe it in brief?
Today I visited two composite material workshops which specialize in sailpl
ane spar and wing construction and repair and have extended this knowhow to
other composite aircraft as well. The owner of one of these enterprises ha
s been building and repairing wings and spars since the seventies and it is
evident that the repair my wing spar is a nothing out of the ordinary for
them. In all those years they have never had a failure in a repaired spar a
nd hey have the knowhow, methods and tools required for the job down pat.
=C2- He was kind enough to 'walk' me through the process and equipment th
ey would use. Pricey it is, yeah =C3=A2=82=AC=9C in the high four
figures sterling.
So now I have a dilemma. I can walk away and buy another plane for (say) 25
grand. Then I have a 2nd hand plane that I need to sort out from scratch.
=C2- On the other hand I could apply that same 25 grand to completely rep
air and refurbish the current plane including zero-timed (SMOH) engine, new
paint job and fixing all the niggles that I want sorted out (like rudder p
edals, stress on rudder horn, location of main gear, electric flaps, etc.)
Then I have an aircraft which is effectively refurbished to my standards an
d which I also know inside-out by the time the job is done. [Note: I have a
lready decided that the time required to get the job done is not a factor i
n my equation.]
So what you do in my shoes? (assuming that I buy back the salvage for a nom
inal sum, having already confirmed that competitive interest is effectively
non-existent).=C2- I shall make up my own mind, don=C3=A2=82=AC=84
=A2t worry =C3=A2=82=AC=9C just need different perspectives if you
care to share.
Regards,
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-Alfred
--------
_________________________________________
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336753#336753
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Subject: | Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice |
If it were my plane , the only person i would listen to is Rich Trickel,
damage looks like it is limited to the close out plate but the compression
on the carbon needs his expert advice .
I would also not bother getting it repaired at a high 4 figure sum by a
sailplane expert, but try to source an unfinished kit.
|------------>
| From: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"BlueSkyFlier" <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com>
|
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------>
| To: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|kis-list@matronics.com
|
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------>
| Date: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|13/04/2011 01:23
|
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------>
| Subject: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|KIS-List: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice
|
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------>
| Sent by: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
|
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
As most of you know, my plane was damaged in a accident when taxiing in
February. Having dropped the wing, we found the rear left spar/support strut
broken on the wing side of the juction with the fuselage. Enough space there
to implement a good and proper fix with alu sideplates added into the (on
both sides of the plane) so no problem.
The bigger issue is that the main spar has a compression fracture at top aft
corner of the spar beam where it exits from the spar box on the left side. A
photos of this is attached (with vernier calipers set to about one inch).
Luckily it is on the top side.
Question for Rich (or anyone else who has the knowledge) Do you perhaps
have access to a drawing of spar construction or could you describe it in
brief?
Today I visited two composite material workshops which specialize in
sailplane spar and wing construction and repair and have extended this
knowhow to other composite aircraft as well. The owner of one of these
enterprises has been building and repairing wings and spars since the
seventies and it is evident that the repair my wing spar is a nothing out of
the ordinary for them. In all those years they have never had a failure in a
repaired spar and hey have the knowhow, methods and tools required for the
job down pat. He was kind enough to 'walk' me through the process and
equipment they would use. Pricey it is, yeah in the high four figures
sterling.
So now I have a dilemma. I can walk away and buy another plane for (say) 25
grand. Then I have a 2nd hand plane that I need to sort out from scratch. On
the other hand I could apply that same 25 grand to completely repair and
refurbish the current plane including zero-timed (SMOH) engine, new paint job
and fixing all the niggles that I want sorted out (like rudder pedals, stress
on rudder horn, location of main gear, electric flaps, etc.) Then I have an
aircraft which is effectively refurbished to my standards and which I also
know inside-out by the time the job is done. [Note: I have already decided
that the time required to get the job done is not a factor in my equation.]
So what you do in my shoes? (assuming that I buy back the salvage for a
nominal sum, having already confirmed that competitive interest is
effectively non-existent). I shall make up my own mind, dont worry
just need different perspectives if you care to share.
Regards,
Alfred
--------
_________________________________________
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336753#336753
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/tr_1_spar_damage_137.jpg
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Hi Al
When building my Cruiser I used the supplied-struts mounted at the rear o
f the door rather than the front as called for. I did not want them in my f
ield of view when flying. After having the doors blow closed a few times I
replaced them with 60 pound units and have not a blow down in 8 years.
-
Bob Anderson
Cruiser N949Y
--- On Tue, 4/12/11, ALFRED ROSA <fredorosa@gmail.com> wrote:
From: ALFRED ROSA <fredorosa@gmail.com>
Subject: KIS-List: Air struts
My air struts for the Cruiser doors got lost in the move to Florida. -I k
now that this was discussed before
-but I must confess to my ignorance of how to dig up past-posts. -Wha
ts a good place to buy them and-
what type and size should I get?
Al
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Subject: | Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice |
I assume he is talking British pounds so 25K is about $40K USD. Of course this
makes his high 4 figure cost to repair even higher for those of us on this side
of the pond.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: ALFRED ROSA
Sent: Apr 12, 2011 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice
I don't think 25 grand can buy you much of a plane. I would fix my own.
Al
On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 7:20 PM, BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com> wrote:
As most of you know, my plane was damaged in a accident when taxiing in February.
Having dropped the wing, we found the rear left spar/support strut broken on
the wing side of the juction with the fuselage. Enough space there to implement
a good and proper fix with alu sideplates added into the (on both sides of
the plane) so no problem.
The bigger issue is that the main spar has a compression fracture at top aft corner
of the spar beam where it exits from the spar box on the left side. A photos
of this is attached (with vernier calipers set to about one inch). Luckily
it is on the top side.
Question for Rich (or anyone else who has the knowledge) Do you perhaps have access
to a drawing of spar construction or could you describe it in brief?
Today I visited two composite material workshops which specialize in sailplane
spar and wing construction and repair and have extended this knowhow to other
composite aircraft as well. The owner of one of these enterprises has been building
and repairing wings and spars since the seventies and it is evident that
the repair my wing spar is a nothing out of the ordinary for them. In all those
years they have never had a failure in a repaired spar and hey have the knowhow,
methods and tools required for the job down pat. He was kind enough to
'walk' me through the process and equipment they would use. Pricey it is, yeah
in the high four figures sterling.
So now I have a dilemma. I can walk away and buy another plane for (say) 25 grand.
Then I have a 2nd hand plane that I need to sort out from scratch. On the
other hand I could apply that same 25 grand to completely repair and refurbish
the current plane including zero-timed (SMOH) engine, new paint job and fixing
all the niggles that I want sorted out (like rudder pedals, stress on rudder
horn, location of main gear, electric flaps, etc.) Then I have an aircraft which
is effectively refurbished to my standards and which I also know inside-out
by the time the job is done. [Note: I have already decided that the time required
to get the job done is not a factor in my equation.]
So what you do in my shoes? (assuming that I buy back the salvage for a nominal
sum, having already confirmed that competitive interest is effectively non-existent).
I shall make up my own mind, dont worry just need different perspectives
if you care to share.
Regards,
Alfred
--------
_________________________________________
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336753#336753
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/tr_1_spar_damage_137.jpg
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Subject: | Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice |
Thank you for all the contributions so far. Good food for thought :o)
Much obliged for the pointer to the wing information Scott! Attached a hi-res photo
of the damaged area which will allow you to see where it is on the spar -
hopefully it won't be stripped off by the moderator. I'm hoping that we will
find that the carbon fibers on the top web of the c-section are intact. If so,
the repair cost will drop by an order of magnitude.
In case the carbon is damaged I am also looking at the option to have an entirely
new wing built. For this I am working with people who routinely design and
built huge hydro-electric turbine blades ... actually aircraft designers/builders
who diversified into the turbine (wind and water) business.
I'm thinking that the cost to build new would be about the same as an extensive
repair, given the simple wing construction of the KIS and that we can re-use
the flaps and ailerons.
I already know of at least one other person who also requires a new wing. By building
two wings we could at least split the non-recurring engineering costs.
(While we are at it we'll obviously improve on the original.)
Anyone else out there who requires a new wing? The more the merrier :o)
--**--
--------
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336822#336822
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Subject: | Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice |
The damage is very small BUT (and this is a very big but) there seems to be a small
notch in the edge of the carbon fiber spar cap. If this was from compression
then I would suspect the whole spar cap. There is also the missing paint
on the top (bottom?) of the spar. This also makes me suspect the spar cap. If
this is the case then it may not be a good idea to try to repair the spar but
it can be done by an expert. The fibers do not need to run from one end to
the other but the repair will require a large area to properly bond. For example
Rich supervised (or maybe did) the repair on the center spar of a TR4 that
went to China.
If the missing paint and notch were caused by other things like abrasion over time
then maybe the spat cap is ok. But without looking at it in person I can
not tell.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
>From: BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com>
>Sent: Apr 13, 2011 10:05 AM
>To: kis-list@matronics.com
>Subject: KIS-List: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice
>
>
>Thank you for all the contributions so far. Good food for thought :o)
>
>Much obliged for the pointer to the wing information Scott! Attached a hi-res
photo of the damaged area which will allow you to see where it is on the spar
- hopefully it won't be stripped off by the moderator. I'm hoping that we will
find that the carbon fibers on the top web of the c-section are intact. If so,
the repair cost will drop by an order of magnitude.
>
>In case the carbon is damaged I am also looking at the option to have an entirely
new wing built. For this I am working with people who routinely design and
built huge hydro-electric turbine blades ... actually aircraft designers/builders
who diversified into the turbine (wind and water) business.
>
>I'm thinking that the cost to build new would be about the same as an extensive
repair, given the simple wing construction of the KIS and that we can re-use
the flaps and ailerons.
>
>I already know of at least one other person who also requires a new wing. By building
two wings we could at least split the non-recurring engineering costs.
(While we are at it we'll obviously improve on the original.)
>
>Anyone else out there who requires a new wing? The more the merrier :o)
>
>--**--
>
>--------
>_________________________________________
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336822#336822
>
>
>Attachments:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com//files/tr_1_spar_damage_162.jpg
>
>
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Subject: | Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice |
You are right Mark. There is some damage to the spar cap at the top rear of the
C-section. The question uppermost in my mind is the following: Considering that
damage resulted from compression, does damage to the resin matrix necessarily
imply that the carbon fibres are broken? And even if the fibres are intact,
could the resin matrix be repaired/strengthened effectively?
The intended repair method involves claving (I think that's the right word?) in
new fibres with the old with a large overlap after cutting a very shallow V notch
(3 feet slope on each side) at the crack location and then also repairing
the shear web. Sounds similar to the repair job Rich supervised.
The front half of the spar cap and the integrity of junction to the spine of the
C-section will remain uncompromised, because the damage is limited to the rear
half of the top spar cap .
Naturally, repairing a main spar is anomalous to us in the GA world and we do tend
to look on it with suspicion. It does however seem that it is par for the
course in the sailplane world and the main contenders for the job has been doing
main spar repairs for more than thirty years.
Apparently the LAA (PFA) here will look kindly on the repair provided it is done
by such a reputable sailplane repair outfit. I am trying to make contact with
the LAA official in charge of such affairs who apparently expressed this opinion
to a fellow KIS owner in Scotland, but establishing contact seems to be more
difficult than making a call and leaving a request for a return call - an
experience some of the UK guys may have shared when dealing with the LAA :o)
I must admit the option to walk away is tempting, but I'll make the final decision
after considering all relevant information.
- Alfred
--------
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