KIS-List Digest Archive

Wed 04/13/11


Total Messages Posted: 8



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:39 AM - Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice (Scott Stearns)
     2. 12:52 AM - Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice (Scott Stearns)
     3. 01:12 AM - Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice (Keith.Miller@esa.int)
     4. 03:45 AM - Re: Air struts (Robert Anderson)
     5. 05:50 AM - Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice (Mark Kettering)
     6. 07:06 AM - Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice (BlueSkyFlier)
     7. 12:36 PM - Re: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice (Mark Kettering)
     8. 03:08 PM - Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice (BlueSkyFlier)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:39:19 AM PST US
    From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice
    The repair looks pretty minor to=C2-me.=C2- I'd like to see more pictur es before I completely commit to an opinion but...=C2- =C2- One side of the=C2-vertical part of the spar is molded with the spar caps into a C section.=C2- The damaged portion is on the opposite side and is a piece of sandwich panel bonded in by the builder.=C2- =C2- http://www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com/KIS-TR1-Web/BuildersManual/TR1_08_wi ngs.pdf =C2- I would grind out the damaged areas enough to inspect the inside plies of t he sandwich panel.=C2- If they are okay then it's not that big of a job t o recreate the sandwich panel with foam/micro and glass over it with 3 or 4 plies.=C2- It should be about=C2-a 1 hour job for someone comfortable with fiberglass work on airplanes from the looks of it.=C2- The european sailplane=C2-composite=C2-guys are probably very good.=C2- =C2- If the inner plies of the sandwich panel are damaged then pull out the whol e sandwich panel and bond in a new one.=C2- That would be a good as new r epair as long as the rest of the spar is undamaged.=C2- =C2- If the carbon (black) spar caps are damaged at all then the spar is junk. =C2- Inspect the area where the crack ends into the black carbon spar cap very carefully.=C2- The shear web is pretty lightly loaded, but the carb on spar caps are about the only=C2-"if it fails you die"=C2-structure i n the airplane.=C2- They are critical and highly loaded.=C2- =C2- Where is the crack relative to the bushing the wing bolts go through?=C2- =C2- My impression is that there were more fuselage kits than wing kits produced .=C2- My wing was the last one produced (11 years ago)=C2-and some of =C2-the tooling was in pretty rough shape back then.=C2- I'm sure=C2- the tooling is=C2-gone by now.=C2- =C2- Scott --- On Tue, 4/12/11, BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com> wrote: From: BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com> Subject: KIS-List: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice As most of you know, my plane was damaged in a accident when taxiing in Feb ruary. Having dropped the wing, we found the rear left spar/support strut b roken on the wing side of the juction with the fuselage.=C2- Enough space there to implement a good and proper fix with alu sideplates added into th e (on both sides of the plane) so no problem. The bigger issue is that the main spar has a compression fracture at top af t corner of the spar beam where it exits from the spar box on the left side . A photos of this is attached (with vernier calipers set to about one inch ). Luckily it is on the top side. Question for Rich (or anyone else who has the knowledge) =C3=A2=82=AC =9C Do you perhaps have access to a drawing of spar construction or coul d you describe it in brief? Today I visited two composite material workshops which specialize in sailpl ane spar and wing construction and repair and have extended this knowhow to other composite aircraft as well. The owner of one of these enterprises ha s been building and repairing wings and spars since the seventies and it is evident that the repair my wing spar is a nothing out of the ordinary for them. In all those years they have never had a failure in a repaired spar a nd hey have the knowhow, methods and tools required for the job down pat. =C2- He was kind enough to 'walk' me through the process and equipment th ey would use. Pricey it is, yeah =C3=A2=82=AC=9C in the high four figures sterling. So now I have a dilemma. I can walk away and buy another plane for (say) 25 grand. Then I have a 2nd hand plane that I need to sort out from scratch. =C2- On the other hand I could apply that same 25 grand to completely rep air and refurbish the current plane including zero-timed (SMOH) engine, new paint job and fixing all the niggles that I want sorted out (like rudder p edals, stress on rudder horn, location of main gear, electric flaps, etc.) Then I have an aircraft which is effectively refurbished to my standards an d which I also know inside-out by the time the job is done. [Note: I have a lready decided that the time required to get the job done is not a factor i n my equation.] So what you do in my shoes? (assuming that I buy back the salvage for a nom inal sum, having already confirmed that competitive interest is effectively non-existent).=C2- I shall make up my own mind, don=C3=A2=82=AC=84 =A2t worry =C3=A2=82=AC=9C just need different perspectives if you care to share. Regards, =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-Alfred -------- _________________________________________ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336753#336753 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/tr_1_spar_damage_137.jpg S WEB FORUMS - on Web Site - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.


    Message 2


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    Time: 12:52:08 AM PST US
    From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice
    The sandwich panel also has solid fiberglass or phenolic 'plates' where the bushings for the spar bolts are.=C2- If you have to pull out the sandwic h panel, then it should be pretty clear to=C2- a composite repair person to see how to recreate it. =C2- Scott --- On Wed, 4/13/11, Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: KIS-List: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice The repair looks pretty minor to=C2-me.=C2- I'd like to see more pictur es before I completely commit to an opinion but...=C2- =C2- One side of the=C2-vertical part of the spar is molded with the spar caps into a C section.=C2- The damaged portion is on the opposite side and is a piece of sandwich panel bonded in by the builder.=C2- =C2- http://www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com/KIS-TR1-Web/BuildersManual/TR1_08_wi ngs.pdf =C2- I would grind out the damaged areas enough to inspect the inside plies of t he sandwich panel.=C2- If they are okay then it's not that big of a job t o recreate the sandwich panel with foam/micro and glass over it with 3 or 4 plies.=C2- It should be about=C2-a 1 hour job for someone comfortable with fiberglass work on airplanes from the looks of it.=C2- The european sailplane=C2-composite=C2-guys are probably very good.=C2- =C2- If the inner plies of the sandwich panel are damaged then pull out the whol e sandwich panel and bond in a new one.=C2- That would be a good as new r epair as long as the rest of the spar is undamaged.=C2- =C2- If the carbon (black) spar caps are damaged at all then the spar is junk. =C2- Inspect the area where the crack ends into the black carbon spar cap very carefully.=C2- The shear web is pretty lightly loaded, but the carb on spar caps are about the only=C2-"if it fails you die"=C2-structure i n the airplane.=C2- They are critical and highly loaded.=C2- =C2- Where is the crack relative to the bushing the wing bolts go through?=C2- =C2- My impression is that there were more fuselage kits than wing kits produced .=C2- My wing was the last one produced (11 years ago)=C2-and some of =C2-the tooling was in pretty rough shape back then.=C2- I'm sure=C2- the tooling is=C2-gone by now.=C2- =C2- Scott --- On Tue, 4/12/11, BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com> wrote: From: BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com> Subject: KIS-List: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice As most of you know, my plane was damaged in a accident when taxiing in Feb ruary. Having dropped the wing, we found the rear left spar/support strut b roken on the wing side of the juction with the fuselage.=C2- Enough space there to implement a good and proper fix with alu sideplates added into th e (on both sides of the plane) so no problem. The bigger issue is that the main spar has a compression fracture at top af t corner of the spar beam where it exits from the spar box on the left side . A photos of this is attached (with vernier calipers set to about one inch ). Luckily it is on the top side. Question for Rich (or anyone else who has the knowledge) =C3=A2=82=AC =9C Do you perhaps have access to a drawing of spar construction or coul d you describe it in brief? Today I visited two composite material workshops which specialize in sailpl ane spar and wing construction and repair and have extended this knowhow to other composite aircraft as well. The owner of one of these enterprises ha s been building and repairing wings and spars since the seventies and it is evident that the repair my wing spar is a nothing out of the ordinary for them. In all those years they have never had a failure in a repaired spar a nd hey have the knowhow, methods and tools required for the job down pat. =C2- He was kind enough to 'walk' me through the process and equipment th ey would use. Pricey it is, yeah =C3=A2=82=AC=9C in the high four figures sterling. So now I have a dilemma. I can walk away and buy another plane for (say) 25 grand. Then I have a 2nd hand plane that I need to sort out from scratch. =C2- On the other hand I could apply that same 25 grand to completely rep air and refurbish the current plane including zero-timed (SMOH) engine, new paint job and fixing all the niggles that I want sorted out (like rudder p edals, stress on rudder horn, location of main gear, electric flaps, etc.) Then I have an aircraft which is effectively refurbished to my standards an d which I also know inside-out by the time the job is done. [Note: I have a lready decided that the time required to get the job done is not a factor i n my equation.] So what you do in my shoes? (assuming that I buy back the salvage for a nom inal sum, having already confirmed that competitive interest is effectively non-existent).=C2- I shall make up my own mind, don=C3=A2=82=AC=84 =A2t worry =C3=A2=82=AC=9C just need different perspectives if you care to share. Regards, =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-Alfred -------- _________________________________________ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336753#336753 Attachments: http://forums.matronicttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List" target= _blank>http://www.matr=C2---> http:============ ===========


    Message 3


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    Time: 01:12:05 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice
    From: Keith.Miller@esa.int
    If it were my plane , the only person i would listen to is Rich Trickel, damage looks like it is limited to the close out plate but the compression on the carbon needs his expert advice . I would also not bother getting it repaired at a high 4 figure sum by a sailplane expert, but try to source an unfinished kit. |------------> | From: | |------------> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |"BlueSkyFlier" <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com> | >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | To: | |------------> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |kis-list@matronics.com | >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | Date: | |------------> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |13/04/2011 01:23 | >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | Subject: | |------------> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |KIS-List: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice | >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | Sent by: | |------------> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com | >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| As most of you know, my plane was damaged in a accident when taxiing in February. Having dropped the wing, we found the rear left spar/support strut broken on the wing side of the juction with the fuselage. Enough space there to implement a good and proper fix with alu sideplates added into the (on both sides of the plane) so no problem. The bigger issue is that the main spar has a compression fracture at top aft corner of the spar beam where it exits from the spar box on the left side. A photos of this is attached (with vernier calipers set to about one inch). Luckily it is on the top side. Question for Rich (or anyone else who has the knowledge) Do you perhaps have access to a drawing of spar construction or could you describe it in brief? Today I visited two composite material workshops which specialize in sailplane spar and wing construction and repair and have extended this knowhow to other composite aircraft as well. The owner of one of these enterprises has been building and repairing wings and spars since the seventies and it is evident that the repair my wing spar is a nothing out of the ordinary for them. In all those years they have never had a failure in a repaired spar and hey have the knowhow, methods and tools required for the job down pat. He was kind enough to 'walk' me through the process and equipment they would use. Pricey it is, yeah in the high four figures sterling. So now I have a dilemma. I can walk away and buy another plane for (say) 25 grand. Then I have a 2nd hand plane that I need to sort out from scratch. On the other hand I could apply that same 25 grand to completely repair and refurbish the current plane including zero-timed (SMOH) engine, new paint job and fixing all the niggles that I want sorted out (like rudder pedals, stress on rudder horn, location of main gear, electric flaps, etc.) Then I have an aircraft which is effectively refurbished to my standards and which I also know inside-out by the time the job is done. [Note: I have already decided that the time required to get the job done is not a factor in my equation.] So what you do in my shoes? (assuming that I buy back the salvage for a nominal sum, having already confirmed that competitive interest is effectively non-existent). I shall make up my own mind, dont worry just need different perspectives if you care to share. Regards, Alfred -------- _________________________________________ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336753#336753 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/tr_1_spar_damage_137.jpg


    Message 4


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    Time: 03:45:37 AM PST US
    From: Robert Anderson <kcruiser1947@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Air struts
    Hi Al When building my Cruiser I used the supplied-struts mounted at the rear o f the door rather than the front as called for. I did not want them in my f ield of view when flying. After having the doors blow closed a few times I replaced them with 60 pound units and have not a blow down in 8 years. - Bob Anderson Cruiser N949Y --- On Tue, 4/12/11, ALFRED ROSA <fredorosa@gmail.com> wrote: From: ALFRED ROSA <fredorosa@gmail.com> Subject: KIS-List: Air struts My air struts for the Cruiser doors got lost in the move to Florida. -I k now that this was discussed before -but I must confess to my ignorance of how to dig up past-posts. -Wha ts a good place to buy them and- what type and size should I get? Al


    Message 5


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    Time: 05:50:04 AM PST US
    From: Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice
    I assume he is talking British pounds so 25K is about $40K USD. Of course this makes his high 4 figure cost to repair even higher for those of us on this side of the pond. Mark -----Original Message----- From: ALFRED ROSA Sent: Apr 12, 2011 9:48 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice I don't think 25 grand can buy you much of a plane. I would fix my own. Al On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 7:20 PM, BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com> wrote: As most of you know, my plane was damaged in a accident when taxiing in February. Having dropped the wing, we found the rear left spar/support strut broken on the wing side of the juction with the fuselage. Enough space there to implement a good and proper fix with alu sideplates added into the (on both sides of the plane) so no problem. The bigger issue is that the main spar has a compression fracture at top aft corner of the spar beam where it exits from the spar box on the left side. A photos of this is attached (with vernier calipers set to about one inch). Luckily it is on the top side. Question for Rich (or anyone else who has the knowledge) Do you perhaps have access to a drawing of spar construction or could you describe it in brief? Today I visited two composite material workshops which specialize in sailplane spar and wing construction and repair and have extended this knowhow to other composite aircraft as well. The owner of one of these enterprises has been building and repairing wings and spars since the seventies and it is evident that the repair my wing spar is a nothing out of the ordinary for them. In all those years they have never had a failure in a repaired spar and hey have the knowhow, methods and tools required for the job down pat. He was kind enough to 'walk' me through the process and equipment they would use. Pricey it is, yeah in the high four figures sterling. So now I have a dilemma. I can walk away and buy another plane for (say) 25 grand. Then I have a 2nd hand plane that I need to sort out from scratch. On the other hand I could apply that same 25 grand to completely repair and refurbish the current plane including zero-timed (SMOH) engine, new paint job and fixing all the niggles that I want sorted out (like rudder pedals, stress on rudder horn, location of main gear, electric flaps, etc.) Then I have an aircraft which is effectively refurbished to my standards and which I also know inside-out by the time the job is done. [Note: I have already decided that the time required to get the job done is not a factor in my equation.] So what you do in my shoes? (assuming that I buy back the salvage for a nominal sum, having already confirmed that competitive interest is effectively non-existent). I shall make up my own mind, dont worry just need different perspectives if you care to share. Regards, Alfred -------- _________________________________________ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336753#336753 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/tr_1_spar_damage_137.jpg ========== rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ==========


    Message 6


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    Time: 07:06:54 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice
    From: "BlueSkyFlier" <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com>
    Thank you for all the contributions so far. Good food for thought :o) Much obliged for the pointer to the wing information Scott! Attached a hi-res photo of the damaged area which will allow you to see where it is on the spar - hopefully it won't be stripped off by the moderator. I'm hoping that we will find that the carbon fibers on the top web of the c-section are intact. If so, the repair cost will drop by an order of magnitude. In case the carbon is damaged I am also looking at the option to have an entirely new wing built. For this I am working with people who routinely design and built huge hydro-electric turbine blades ... actually aircraft designers/builders who diversified into the turbine (wind and water) business. I'm thinking that the cost to build new would be about the same as an extensive repair, given the simple wing construction of the KIS and that we can re-use the flaps and ailerons. I already know of at least one other person who also requires a new wing. By building two wings we could at least split the non-recurring engineering costs. (While we are at it we'll obviously improve on the original.) Anyone else out there who requires a new wing? The more the merrier :o) --**-- -------- _________________________________________ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336822#336822 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/tr_1_spar_damage_162.jpg


    Message 7


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    Time: 12:36:08 PM PST US
    From: Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice
    The damage is very small BUT (and this is a very big but) there seems to be a small notch in the edge of the carbon fiber spar cap. If this was from compression then I would suspect the whole spar cap. There is also the missing paint on the top (bottom?) of the spar. This also makes me suspect the spar cap. If this is the case then it may not be a good idea to try to repair the spar but it can be done by an expert. The fibers do not need to run from one end to the other but the repair will require a large area to properly bond. For example Rich supervised (or maybe did) the repair on the center spar of a TR4 that went to China. If the missing paint and notch were caused by other things like abrasion over time then maybe the spat cap is ok. But without looking at it in person I can not tell. Mark -----Original Message----- >From: BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com> >Sent: Apr 13, 2011 10:05 AM >To: kis-list@matronics.com >Subject: KIS-List: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice > > >Thank you for all the contributions so far. Good food for thought :o) > >Much obliged for the pointer to the wing information Scott! Attached a hi-res photo of the damaged area which will allow you to see where it is on the spar - hopefully it won't be stripped off by the moderator. I'm hoping that we will find that the carbon fibers on the top web of the c-section are intact. If so, the repair cost will drop by an order of magnitude. > >In case the carbon is damaged I am also looking at the option to have an entirely new wing built. For this I am working with people who routinely design and built huge hydro-electric turbine blades ... actually aircraft designers/builders who diversified into the turbine (wind and water) business. > >I'm thinking that the cost to build new would be about the same as an extensive repair, given the simple wing construction of the KIS and that we can re-use the flaps and ailerons. > >I already know of at least one other person who also requires a new wing. By building two wings we could at least split the non-recurring engineering costs. (While we are at it we'll obviously improve on the original.) > >Anyone else out there who requires a new wing? The more the merrier :o) > >--**-- > >-------- >_________________________________________ > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336822#336822 > > >Attachments: > >http://forums.matronics.com//files/tr_1_spar_damage_162.jpg > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 03:08:03 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice
    From: "BlueSkyFlier" <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com>
    You are right Mark. There is some damage to the spar cap at the top rear of the C-section. The question uppermost in my mind is the following: Considering that damage resulted from compression, does damage to the resin matrix necessarily imply that the carbon fibres are broken? And even if the fibres are intact, could the resin matrix be repaired/strengthened effectively? The intended repair method involves claving (I think that's the right word?) in new fibres with the old with a large overlap after cutting a very shallow V notch (3 feet slope on each side) at the crack location and then also repairing the shear web. Sounds similar to the repair job Rich supervised. The front half of the spar cap and the integrity of junction to the spine of the C-section will remain uncompromised, because the damage is limited to the rear half of the top spar cap . Naturally, repairing a main spar is anomalous to us in the GA world and we do tend to look on it with suspicion. It does however seem that it is par for the course in the sailplane world and the main contenders for the job has been doing main spar repairs for more than thirty years. Apparently the LAA (PFA) here will look kindly on the repair provided it is done by such a reputable sailplane repair outfit. I am trying to make contact with the LAA official in charge of such affairs who apparently expressed this opinion to a fellow KIS owner in Scotland, but establishing contact seems to be more difficult than making a call and leaving a request for a return call - an experience some of the UK guys may have shared when dealing with the LAA :o) I must admit the option to walk away is tempting, but I'll make the final decision after considering all relevant information. - Alfred -------- _________________________________________ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336867#336867




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